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Zephon
22nd Feb 2004, 14:55
Take out all of the puzzles in the next game, I spent hour after frustrated hour solving them. if i wanted puzzles i would buy a puzzle game. can the next be just horror/rpg/action NOT puzzle.

mortaniusgod
22nd Feb 2004, 16:13
mmm I agree with you in some degree....
I think the "soul Reaver" saga is over, or at least it should be.
The next game, being the last or not, I think should create a new style. You've got Blood Omen, then you've got soul reaver (defiance, although different in several aspects, is more or less a soul reaver kind of game).
I think maybe returning to the Blood Omen style... something like Diablo? with 3D cinematics in between chapters.... or, hell! maybe something new!! It's up to the CD team. It would take lots of time and money, I know.... but developing a new style (and by new I mean NOT a soul reaver kind of game) would give the LOK serie a refreshing touch. Not that soulr reaver aftertaste.

Erving JeansBgone
22nd Feb 2004, 18:39
IMO puzzles are a crucial part of the game,would you like to play 10 hours or 20? think about it.I like puzzles they make me think and not just go around killing monsters and stuff...what is this,CS?

Bloody-Mess
22nd Feb 2004, 18:57
LOLOLOLOLOLOL if you can't play it doesn't mean that game mast be changed!!!:p :p :p

van_HellSing PL
22nd Feb 2004, 19:03
I'm hoping for more puzzles! And harder ones!

Erving JeansBgone
22nd Feb 2004, 19:17
i totaly agree man the puzzles rock!

Caer
22nd Feb 2004, 20:01
I think the puzzles should be relatively few, but harder than they are in Defiance. They were way easier than the old ones. to go with medium amount and medium difficulty feels wrong to me.

Embla
22nd Feb 2004, 22:08
More puzzles would be great.

AndaPanda
22nd Feb 2004, 22:25
Haven't noticed any "HELL YEAH!" or "MORE PUZZLES" options to this poll.... I, for one, LOVE the puzzles, and I'd like the next game to have more (and definitely harder) puzzles than Defiance. The ones in Soul Reaver 1 were excellent, although a little repetitive (same block puzzles, but with pictures or piping needing to be constructed).... But this kind of puzzles, combined with the ones in Defiance and maybe the HUGE forges in SR2... That's what I'd like to see in the next LOK installment :D *prays*:p

Enihcam
22nd Feb 2004, 22:29
Your poll is bogus. There's really no option for people who like the puzzles and want more or harder ones.

blincoln
22nd Feb 2004, 23:03
If you don't like puzzles, maybe buying an Action/Adventure game wasn't such a wise choice.

The Amazing Rando
23rd Feb 2004, 00:05
I too am for more puzzles. I hope they could do some of them that were cut from previous games ( ie: find the right enemies hand that will open a door)

The Angel of Death
23rd Feb 2004, 08:13
at least its not the dam block puzzles u c in sr1 they realy got anoying after a while (i rember i had trouble with some block puzzles in the orical caves)

Dark Abyss
23rd Feb 2004, 08:23
I mean come on...Except the boring yet "smart" puzzles in SR1 i have no complaints. The puzzles in the LOK games where great. Not too hard but sometimes too easy. And let's just say those in Defiance where hard only if you haven't played action/adventures.

Shifter
23rd Feb 2004, 10:49
i think the puzzles are fine as they are but they should be less forced like they need 2 insert back doors

The Angel of Death
23rd Feb 2004, 10:49
i reckon the puzzles give the games a bit more of a challange

mortaniusgod
23rd Feb 2004, 12:49
No one else think that there should be a change?????
As much as I love SR and Defiance, I think the LOK serie needs a new touch.

Erving JeansBgone
23rd Feb 2004, 13:07
a change would be good i guess but a graphical one,changing the game into something like Diablo would just not be cool,having control of what actions you do and how you beat-up or kill an enemy woulden`t be the same anymore...no control.so i guess i agree with you,exept the change part;)

NeoDodge
23rd Feb 2004, 13:08
Maybe make it the same amount of puzzles, but different ones ?
I think, maybe, having a puzzle on which the whole plot is dependent might be cool. Like, the way you solve it will change the levels you visit, thus affecting the way the story develops or something like that, I don't know...

Erving JeansBgone
23rd Feb 2004, 13:18
a great idea :cool:

Dark Abyss
23rd Feb 2004, 14:55
Yeah, shure NeoDodge and then we'll buy about 5 cd-s just to cover all the changes you might do in a puzzle. Great ideea.

Zephon
23rd Feb 2004, 15:27
don't even mention SR1 puzzles.

i spent about 10 hours in the silenced cathedral

legacyofraziel
23rd Feb 2004, 18:03
you didnt made any yes i do option!!:mad:

HolyMoses
23rd Feb 2004, 19:21
your poll is so bias.

I vote, MORE PUZZLES. Make them harder too. I want to be beating my head against the television out of frustration. ha ha, I love it!

SR1 had great puzzles in it, I spent so much time in the silenced cathedral, it wasn't even funny. (Particularly the part where you have to ring both bells on opposite sides of the room)

BO1 had a few good ones too, although they were mostly, "Find the Right Order of Switches" puzzle. A bit tedious, but Trial and Error non the less.

SR2 had some really good ones, the Light Temple was great, and the Wind Temple is one of my favorites. Fire temple wasn't so bad either.

Defiance had a few good ones too. Vorador's mansion sticks out of my head as one really good on of that game.

legacyofraziel
23rd Feb 2004, 19:28
the people ho voted for "no keep it the same" liked the pozzels and wont more they chose thet becose you didnt made any optins of thet we actully like the pazzels

Shifter
23rd Feb 2004, 23:22
i liked the ones in sr2 that u can use a object 2 say use a mirror 2 direct a light beam thats the ones i like

hippl5
24th Feb 2004, 00:27
puzzles are good, i won't be rolling around on the floor moaning that i'm bored.....

Defiance- to easy!
soul reaver- Blocks... yeah right...
Blood omen 2- ARE YOU KIDDING ME? PUSH A BLOCK THE FLOOR CRAKCS YOU WIN, JUMP A LEDGE YOU WIN! TO DAM EASY!

Soul reaver 2- good but could be a little more difficult, the dark forge was the most difficult...

WraithStar
24th Feb 2004, 03:53
I think that the next game should have lots and lots of puzzles, and not really easy ones either. I felt like Defiance was sort of lacking in puzzles because the focus was on the combat system. (I like Defiance a lot, though.)

HolyMoses
24th Feb 2004, 14:42
Originally posted by WraithStar
I think that the next game should have lots and lots of puzzles, and not really easy ones either. I felt like Defiance was sort of lacking in puzzles because the focus was on the combat system. (I like Defiance a lot, though.)

The only good puzzle in defiance was the secret of the fountian in Vorador's mansion.


You know what else makes a great game? Pointless artifacts. Remember in BO1 where you could get devistating spells that you didn't nessicarily need, such as the lightning spell.

Dark Abyss
24th Feb 2004, 16:12
I think that the coolest thing would be to let the player explore the world of nosgoth and find more pointless yet devastating spells or artifacts. Though a "fast" gamer should also be able to finish the game without these secrets. I know i would love just to walk around in Nosgoth and unburry ancient secrets and find more interresting things about the world of Nosgoth.

van_HellSing PL
24th Feb 2004, 17:38
I think that the coolest thing would be to let the player explore the world of nosgoth and find more pointless yet devastating spells or artifacts. HELL YEAH!!! SR1 style exploration!!!

hippiechk
25th Feb 2004, 13:57
I like the puzzles as they are. I say keep 'em.


Originally posted by Dark Abyss
I think that the coolest thing would be to let the player explore the world of nosgoth and find more pointless yet devastating spells or artifacts.

YES! I agree too! I also miss that SR1 style of free roaming exploration - and glyph spells. Bring it all back in the next installment. Please?

Jeffers
27th Feb 2004, 12:56
I love the puzzles in the games. To me it is what makes up the games and makes them so much fun.

If all the puzzles are removed from the game then I think I would loose a lot of interest in the game. I like more then just fight after fight after fight.

Jeffers

The Angel of Death
29th Feb 2004, 09:23
i was just thinkin dose any 1 no how many block puzzle & blocks their are in sr1 (just wondering) im gessin but i would say 150 blocks

Omni_Sephiroth
29th Feb 2004, 09:34
Im fine with it the way it is :P

ploppy1999
29th Feb 2004, 11:26
What i missed from defience was fact you could use the scenery like if you see a burning torch you could pull it off the wall, i remember in sr moving thoese stupid blocks around with the spiders dropping down every 5 seconds wondering how to kill them (puzzle element) seeing a pipe fitted to the wall ripping it off and stabbing them to death.

Blue Winged Fellow
29th Feb 2004, 16:32
HELL YEAH!
More puzzles, more difficult, more plot related ala x Forge (x= Ligth, Dark, Wind, you get the idea), Bring back one or two of those block puzzles, I really miss them, and DEFINETLY glyphs powers (call them whatever you like CD, but make them happen). I remember from SR1 that some of the most rewarding puzzles were actually getting the sound gliph and the light gliph. Well, all of them were quite rewarding, considering that each one was making the game easier and easier!
Like Ben said, if you don't like Puzzles, you made a mistake buying this genre of games...
I don't mind the fighting (I have a complain about the controls but that's a different story) but I think Defiance was WAY in the weak side where regarding puzzles.

BTW, I didn't vote. I couldn't find an option that represents my opinion there, that's why I'm writing this. This poll is way too biased, maybe someone will do justice and create a "unbiased" poll about puzzles?

It's an obssession
29th Feb 2004, 18:04
I wish there was a "MORE PUZZLES!!!" option. I loved the puzzles. They're all fun anyway, so why get rid of them? They make up a big part of the game, maybe not with Defiance, but definitely with the others. :) That's what I think. ;)

Umah Bloodomen
29th Feb 2004, 18:05
If, at any time, you come across a poll that appears a bit biased, let me know and I'll be able to add an option (or options) which will rectify that.

With that said, the poll has been adjusted to include the "more puzzles please" option. :)

Blue Winged Fellow
29th Feb 2004, 18:08
Great!

Thanks Umah... Any chance you can put an option for "WAY MORE PUZZLES?" ;) Only kidding!

I'm voting now...

Umah Bloodomen
29th Feb 2004, 18:15
Originally posted by Blue Winged Fellow
Great!

Thanks Umah... Any chance you can put an option for "WAY MORE PUZZLES?" ;) Only kidding!

I'm voting now...

A bit greedy aren't you Blue Winged Fellow? :p ;)

If there was a "way less" option, I most likely would've made the "way more" option.

You're welcome. :)

Raptor666
29th Feb 2004, 18:17
I want the same amount or more puzzles personally, but with better pace to them so they don't get tedious so quick. Like for example in regards to block puzzles i'd prefer it if pushing/pulling was removed or made optional and instead you could TK blocks around instead at a much faster speed, and if possible have them slide in single moves rather than moving one block space at a time. Also would like the free-roaming element back. :D

It's an obssession
29th Feb 2004, 18:40
Thanks, Umah! NOW I can vote! :D Raptor666, you've got a good point, there. :)

WraithStar
29th Feb 2004, 23:51
I already voted, but I'd like to change it now from "keep it the same" to "more puzzles please" (I knew I should have waited to vote:rolleyes: ) Oh well.

Umah Bloodomen
1st Mar 2004, 00:11
Originally posted by WraithStar
I already voted, but I'd like to change it now from "keep it the same" to "more puzzles please" (I knew I should have waited to vote:rolleyes: ) Oh well.

No worries, WraithStar. I've transfered your vote to the new option.

It's an obssession ~ You're welcome. :)

WraithStar
1st Mar 2004, 00:23
Yay! Thank you so much!:) :) :)

Dark Abyss
1st Mar 2004, 06:23
I think a combination fo puzzles from al LOK games would be in order and if CD could come up with some new interresting stuff...i wouldn' mind :cool:

It's an obssession
1st Mar 2004, 21:48
I'd kill for more puzzles!!!!!!! Seriously, I love them! Big puzzles that are really difficult and will take ages to do!!!!!!!!!! HA HA!!! :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

LOKFan
1st Mar 2004, 22:45
Umah, could you transfer my vote to "More puzzles please", as well? Thanks in advance.

Umah Bloodomen
1st Mar 2004, 22:49
Originally posted by LOKFan
Umah, could you transfer my vote to "More puzzles please", as well? Thanks in advance.

What was your original vote?

Also, I will be happy to do so for you and anyone else who wants to, however, rather than take this thread off topic, feel free to contact me via Private Channels (PM's and/or email). Please include what you voted for.

Thanks. :)

Zephon
2nd Mar 2004, 17:06
Originally posted by Raptor666
I want the same amount or more puzzles personally, but with better pace to them so they don't get tedious so quick. Like for example in regards to block puzzles i'd prefer it if pushing/pulling was removed or made optional and instead you could TK blocks around instead at a much faster speed, and if possible have them slide in single moves rather than moving one block space at a time. Also would like the free-roaming element back. :D

that i wouldn't mind so much

how bout levitating em

sorry about the bias poll, i was fuming when i wrote this thanks to glitches in SR1, SR2 & DEFIANCE which stopped me completing puzzles with cheats.

SR1= blocks in SG area fall through floor
SR2= invincibility stops me going into spectral realm, making getting to JAR inpossible
defiance= tk area on pilar not there, so can't uncover air jet

LOKFan
2nd Mar 2004, 22:17
Originally posted by Zephon
SR2= invincibility stops me going into spectral realm, making getting to JAR inpossible


You're not meant to have invincibility at that part of the game and there's no invincibility code in the game so you must've used a cheat device.

The puzzles were designed only to work with the game running normally not with cheat devices running.

Zephon
3rd Mar 2004, 15:49
i used action replay V2

Tennz
8th Mar 2004, 23:46
I am not a fan of puzzles but i don't mind the ones in the lok series, i don't really care if they get rid of them or not.

Camus Audron
14th Mar 2004, 04:51
well, the number of them is fine for me.

but what I dont like is that many times they seem to be made to just so that the character can solve them

Iit's just weird that the the lock to vorador's gates would be light/dark reaver suceptible when vorador isnt even supposed to know Raziel has the reaver. that kind of thing is very ok in the forges, and in the citadel...but it just comes out weird in areas of nosgoth that arent made for raziel/kain.

nichie14
21st Mar 2004, 06:56
MAN!!!!!!!!!!!!DON'T YOU GUYS WANT THIS SERIES TO BE LOVE BY MANY. If you guys want that, please decrease the level of puzzles. Gosh i always hated when entering the Ancient Vampire place knowing that you have tons of puzzles to solve, which involves going back and forth, and finding a specifiic object to shoot or to hit at. It's Deja Vu. MAn!!!! many successful games don't concentrate on puzzles, instead they concerntrate on the main storyline, how to make the game fun. I WANTED THIS LOK SERIES TO BE POPULAR, like the Metal Gear Solid series where instead of relying on countless puzzles that are replicas of one another, they concerntrated it on action and some puzzles(keyword: some) to keep the storyline and fun flowing. Like what someone said in one of the thread, Defiance doesn't have that much plot. I strongly agreed, for much of the time is spent in the Ancient Vampire Citadel solving hide and seek puzzles. The cinematics in the Vampire castle were boring, involving looking at murals instead of pure cinematic scene like the one where Kain and Raziel face off. Have you guys seen the cinematics for Metal Gear Solid: Twin Snake!!!!!! it totally blow Defiance to its' knee in terms of cinematics. Defiance has too much puzzles, too less plot.

Bruce Lee

LOKFan
21st Mar 2004, 09:54
The puzzles in SR and SR2 were excellent. They were well designed, very logical and truly made you think. I'd like more of those.

The Defiance puzzles, IMO, seemed too easy. Place item, hit switch, light brazier, extinguish orb, destroy column etc. There were some good puzzles in Defiance, like in Vorador's Mansion, but mostly they were too simple.

When I completed the Dark Forge, I was shocked that I had seeing as the forges in SR2 were huge labryrinths of puzzles and sub puzzles. All you had to do in the Defiance forges was: -

1. Find and kill Guardians (if applicable)
2. Forge Wraith Blade
3. Reactivate warp gate

When I say I'd like more puzzles, I mean I'd like puzzles in the style of SR and SR2.

nichie14, I disagree that Defiance had little plot. While in the chapters "The Cemetary" up until the end of "Vorador's Mansion" this was true, the rest of the game was excellent in story, IMO, which more than made up for the rest of the game.

The mural cutscenes were not boring as you say but very insightful into the story, if you were interested in it at all. I'm sure that avid LOK fans who deeply enjoyed SR2's plot, find these murals interesting just as I did. The murals tell the story that isn't in the game and they provide breadth to the whole LOK story.

Have you played the other LOK games? If you have, they you should know that LOK doesn't concentrate on big, fancy action sequences but on deep, musing soliloquies, long, emotive speeches, clever metaphors and shocking plot twists that make the fans think so deeply about the story.

Added to this, are the puzzles, which like I already said make you think long and hard about the solution (at least in SR2)

And this is why LOK is a great series; LOK truly puts me into deep thought in gameplay and story something which few other series match.

Dark Abyss
22nd Mar 2004, 07:27
Nithchie...i really have to disagree with you. Although i loved Metal Gear Solid. The thing is that if you have only action sequences...you really get bored after a while by playing the game over and over again. There are few games that cand keep you playing just cus you shoot back and forth and kill everyone. It's just a NO BRAINER. Instead...crystal dynamics made a good combination of action, plot and puzzles so only few people will get bored playing it. I mean, I played the games over and over...now i am replaying SR1 just so i can review plot items and missed story bits so i can make a better picture of how things are possible in this game and stuff. I don't know if I would do that if there would be a movie at every step...easy to kill monsters and movies again.

PS that's a personal opinion up there...i don't know how many feel the same way...but I don't think there are too few :p

BigKevSexyMan
22nd Mar 2004, 17:07
O.K. It should have SR2 puzzles, LoK Defiance Combat, and BO2 Steath Kills. *Drools*

nichie14
23rd Mar 2004, 06:58
Oh Gosh, the next Lok game will be fill with tons of puzzle! Puzzles at every corner. Where's the fun in that? Actually i love the battle system so much that i would rather have more enemies to battle than the deja vu puzzles.

love and respect

LOKFan
24th Mar 2004, 06:32
:o You haven't read a single thing I wrote, have you?

Dark Abyss
25th Mar 2004, 09:18
nitchie, i don't know about you but i strongly reccomend to change games cus it seems lik LOK is not for you.

Dark_Raziel01
25th Mar 2004, 10:36
i agree with Dark Abyss if i wont puzzle i would buy 1 of those 1000 peice puzzles insteat of playin lok

nichie14
25th Mar 2004, 21:55
No the problem with Defiance's puzzle is that they are too similar. You pretty know what's going to happen. Oh you go to the Vampire Champer, forge the reaver, kill guardian and get out. It's all a matter of hide and seek. You just have to know where to look and where to find your way back. It wasn't challenging. Too much puzzles like that gets' boring. I despised going back to the Vampire Citadel, for one, there are hardly any enemies in the material realm except for those easy killing Statues. Secondly, the puzzles after the 2 or 3 times, are DEJA VU. The reason the game is long has to do with the puzzles. Thus, there were not much plot or cool cinematics.

I KNOW I'M RIGHT AND THAT'S IT.

BRUCE LEE AKA MALEK OF NOSGION OF AMERICA

Omni_Sephiroth
26th Mar 2004, 06:28
You are right? Every one here has disagreed with you, although the scenery was similar the puzzles were very different, there was massive plot.

LOKFan
26th Mar 2004, 06:38
After seeing that outburst, I'm certain you didn't read a single thing I wrote and I'm assuming you never played SR or SR2.

You make a huge deal about the repetitiveness of the Defiance puzzles yet you mention nothing about the SR series puzzles, which truly were the best and inspiring puzzles of the entire series. They contained none of the "deva vu" element you claim litters the Defiance puzzles. That's the type of puzzle I what in the next game.

Puzzles are one of the major, crucial factors of the LOK games. It's what the fans like in the games. If you don't like the puzzles then the LOK series isn't for you and you shouldn't be a LOK fan.

And what's with "hide and seek", who are you hiding from? I don't know about you but I wasn't hiding from anyone.

Camus Audron
26th Mar 2004, 07:47
nitchie, you usually have good points because you have a unique view, but the way you state them sort of deminishes the attention people put to them, try to express them in a more laid back fashion, and be sure that you are communicating the exact point that you are trying to make and consider other people's points more deeply, really re-evaluate your concepts when other people show you diferent facets of them.

anyway, I agree with you that MGS has more depth in it's cutscenes, but not in the ploth, rather in character development.

Even in characters that dont affect the game too much like Stillman, we know all his motivations and we really get to know the character's personality and wishes, while in LOK we barely know anything about Kain or Raziel's deeper thoughts, we only see a very slight and shallow portrayal of their personalities.

I think this is mainly because amy has resisted to introduce new characters, every character is there because he was meant to be, there are no minor characters that affect the story only in a few aspects, all of the responsability for the events of the game relies on a few characters, when in MGS there are many forces in conflict. while every other person in nosgoth is just a disposable npc which doesnt have any effect on anything.
BO series sort of differenced from this a little with characters like elzhevir, ottomar, magnus, bishop, Umah etc. And I think this way there is more interaction and we get to see more facets of the main character's personalities.

There's also something that has always struck me as weird in the LOK confrontations that I dont see in MGS, it is something about the way the dialogues play out...something about how the greatest enemies still carefullly lay out their concept for their rival to understand them, and then wait for their reply before they attack , almost acknoweldging that what they say matters more than wether they survive the fight or not. (one wouldnt be very concerned about making a point if one knows the other guy wants to slit one's throat, if anything one says a concept to stun the rival and then attack....)

But I also agree with LOKfan on his point about the puzzles, SR1 puzzles were my personal favorite, and even when sometimes they relied heavily on a puzzle element, they still used it in a very different way every time, some had you rotate them to fit the holes, some had you pile them up in a way that you could reach a ledge etc.
Although the reliance on the puzzles is a little too heavy, and sometimes break the suspension of disbelief as they make it it all seem too staged when it's not meant to.

I also think that the way LOK uses the resource of battle is a bit too basic, it's just "kill these enemies so that the wall goes away" or "kill these enemies so that you dont get hurt the next time you cross this path" I reckon it would be nicier if it took a little more advantage of the different races of nosgoth, and had you create temporal aliances or riavelries with them, and pit them against eachother on your favor instead of having you fight every single creature on the planet.

Dark Abyss
26th Mar 2004, 12:44
Good one Camus Audron. I thought about saying the SR1 puzzles where a bit boring after a while. Box puzzles over box puzzles but once you discover their secret and solve them, then comes that great feeling of accomplishment. I must agree that Defiance puzzles where a bit repetitve but the thing was that in every forge you had to do the same thing to get in and get out but it was what happened in between that mattered. Because every forge had their mural whitch deeply added to the plot, and every forge had to be solved differently. And i have to recall a statement I made a while ago i don't know who saw but at that time i said something like (for all you religious ppl out there) how about doing every church look different. You can't because it has to have it's basic "facilities" and all that differes are the paintings and size and a lttle architectural differences. You can't have much variety building something that has the same functionality.

Kains_Queen
26th Mar 2004, 12:50
I agree dark abyss. I liked the defiance puzzles and pretty much all the puzzles in the LOk series. I'll never tire of playing defiance and doing the puzzles in it over and over again as I am just hapy to be able to play it and enjoy Kain and Raziel's story :)

Dark Abyss
26th Mar 2004, 12:54
There are some times when i hate the puzzles. And those times are when a friend comes to me, and i show him SR1 or something and he doesn't have the patience to let me finish them so i can show him more of the story. What can I say...I like advertising the LOK games :D

Kains_Queen
26th Mar 2004, 13:30
Naturally at every avaliable opportunity!