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Omni_Sephiroth
22nd Feb 2004, 13:01
Each time i play Lok im confronted with the fact that the Hylden have a right to be angry they were actually trying to free the vampires from the Elder god and refusing to submit to the weel of fate when The Anients started the war and banished them for not submitting to a False god it is only natural for them to want vengance for being banished to a Demon demention what do you all think hylden bad or good?

The Angel of Death
22nd Feb 2004, 13:19
if i was a hylden & i managed 2 get out on the demon demension i would want VENGENCE ( just what the sarafan lord did or try 2 do in bo2)

Umah Bloodomen
22nd Feb 2004, 16:50
While you ask if the Hylden are "bad", I think that the same question should be applied to the Ancients. Up until they went on their little "quest for conformity", there's no evidence suggesting that the two races didn't coexist at least somewhat amicably beforehand. (We've only been enlightened to what happened after the Ancients sought to "pollute" the land with their own ideals).

I do agree that the Hylden have a right to be somewhat ticked off about having another belief system crammed down their throats and falling victim to the "greater cause" of the Ancients (and ultimately being punished for refusing to conform), however the retaliation aspect of the issue is what makes the Hylden appear more "sadistic" and "evil" or "bad" if you will. By the same token, this issue should really be looked at from both sides. Both races feel that they and their ideals are more benevolent than the other. Does this make them "good" or "right"? Maybe in their own eyes, but certainly not in everyone's.

Ardeth Silvereni
22nd Feb 2004, 17:38
Both the Ancients and the Hylden have been guilty of trying to eliminate each other during their wars. The only difference, as far as I can see, is that the Hylden aimed for outright genocide using the Device, and the Ancients seemed to settle for banishing and containing their enemies. However, the demonic dimension was a hellish place, so was that actually merciful, or more cruel in the long run?

As with most interpretations of 'evil', it is really a matter of perspective, as Umah said.

The only thing which makes me come down on the side of 'Hylden are evil' is that their vengeance wasn't just directed at the Ancients. The Device was designed to destroy all vampires, humans, everything. This indiscriminate attitude makes them seem amoral. It isn't really justice - they apparently intended to use it even before their banishment, and I think it goes far beyond self-defence.

van_HellSing PL
22nd Feb 2004, 19:09
This is a difficult case... Of course one might say that the evilness of the BO2 Hylden was only a result of their imprisonment in the demon dimension, but remember the murals from their city- they are all downright creepy!

WraithStar
22nd Feb 2004, 20:01
Basically, I don't think that "good" and "bad" apply to anyone in this series (except Sebastian. That traitor's bad. Come to think of it, Moebius is too...anyway)

I think that the Elder God just exists. He's trying to survive any way he can and I respect that. I definitely think he needs to be destroyed, but I don't view him as evil. Now, in the process of surviving, the Elder God tricked the Ancients into being his puppets. As puppets, I think that they border on being bad, but I like Janos too much to say that they're all evil:) . The Hylden saw through the Elder Gods' trickery and refused to become his puppets, which makes them border on being good. But it never really was about good and evil. It was always about survival. Desperation rarely allows someone to stop and think over what they're doing. The Ancients were desperate for the Elder God's love and approval. The Hylden were desperate to avoid a life-cycle like that. Both sides were willing to do anything to survive, including banishing their opponents to a hellish dimension or inflicting the curse which separated their opponents from the Elder God they loved so dearly.

If I had to pick a side that I would consider to be "right", it would be the Hylden because the Ancients started the war. However, after their banishment in the other dimension, the Hylden have become quite vicious and right now, all bets are off. You have to go on an individual basis (which you should have done before, but really the only ones you knew were Janos, the Builder, and the Seer).

Anyway, after all of that rambling, I'm going to choose that the Hylden were neutral because I really think that both sides did some terrible things to survive and I don't think that the Hylden were particularly bad compared to the Ancients.

AndaPanda
22nd Feb 2004, 23:07
I agree with WraithStar. Really, I couldn't have said it better :)

WraithStar
23rd Feb 2004, 01:41
Awwww, thanks:) :) :)

Zephon
23rd Feb 2004, 16:25
I'm on the side of the hylden.

just look at it in our own world, In some countries people are executed for their beliefs.

& I don't really like Janos

*waits for hate mail*

legacyofraziel
23rd Feb 2004, 18:06
they are nutrel !
the vampiers fighot for nothgoth and as well did the hylden they both wonted to roll nothgoth

WraithStar
23rd Feb 2004, 18:31
Originally posted by Zephon
I'm on the side of the hylden.

just look at it in our own world, In some countries people are executed for their beliefs.

& I don't really like Janos

*waits for hate mail*

Well, I do like Janos, but to each his own. I agree that the Hylden have a right to defend themselves. I was on their side too, but as van_HellSing PL says,
remember the murals from their city- they are all downright creepy! I had forgotten about the murals where they depict themselves as torturing humans and vampires. If they did do that, I can't consider them to be good.

HolyMoses
23rd Feb 2004, 19:14
I too, don't think it is a term of good and evil. All the ancients really are guilty of is falling victum to deception. But just because they were ignorant to what they were doing, doesn't make them evil. If they had learned the truth, I'm sure they would have changed their ways.

Just because the Hylden caught on to the whole "Wheel of Fate" dilema, doesn't make them good either. Their culture seems to go along the lines of "rape and pillage", learning about life so you can destroy it. They're very domanitive, and sadistic, even in their methods of revenge. After all, they turned the ancients into that which they hated most. Beings outside of the wheel of fate, which preyed apon others.

The ancients; on the other hand, are not about conquest. They seem to want to create in harmony. They didn't seem to have any affiliation with humans, where as the Hylden seemed to always torture humans.

Woetothecongoured
24th Feb 2004, 01:52
The hylden might of created the device to destroy humans aswell because humans can be turned into vampires

WraithStar
24th Feb 2004, 02:59
Originally posted by HolyMoses
I too, don't think it is a term of good and evil. All the ancients really are guilty of is falling victum to deception. But just because they were ignorant to what they were doing, doesn't make them evil. If they had learned the truth, I'm sure they would have changed their ways.

...

The ancients; on the other hand, are not about conquest. They seem to want to create in harmony. They didn't seem to have any affiliation with humans, where as the Hylden seemed to always torture humans.

I have to disagree about the ancients. They are the ones who started the war, who wanted to conquer the Hylden and bind them to the wheel of fate. Maybe if they knew what the Elder God really was, they wouldn't have followed his orders. However, if they believe in something strongly enough to kill for it and to die for it, they should be held accountable for their own actions. I despise puppets who act according to someone else's commands and then claim they didn't know any better.

As far as the Hylden go, I appreciate the beautiful irony of the curse. It was a very clever idea. On a personal note, though, I definitely do not like the idea of characters I like being cursed.

The Angel of Death
24th Feb 2004, 05:00
Originally posted by Zephon
I'm on the side of the hylden.

just look at it in our own world, In some countries people are executed for their beliefs.

& I don't really like Janos

*waits for hate mail*

2 me janos seems 2 be a xeption 2 it

WraithStar
24th Feb 2004, 05:03
Originally posted by The Angel of Death
2 me janos seems 2 be a xeption 2 it

If by that you mean that Janos seems to be genuinely good, I agree.

The Angel of Death
24th Feb 2004, 05:07
Originally posted by WraithStar
If by that you mean that Janos seems to be genuinely good, I agree.

yes thats wat i mean by it i would say u 1st see this in sr2 when raziel meets him

evil_sharkey
24th Feb 2004, 05:55
How can the Hylden be bad? They're green. They're not even ripe yet.:p

Sorry, I couldn't resist.

Seriously, I don't really buy into the whole good and evil thing. Every race did its share of evil deeds while claiming the side of righteousness. Heck, look at actual history. It's filled with idiots pulling the same "ends justify the means" and "they deserve it" baloney. True sadists and other lunatics are thankfully very rare. I haven't played BO2 yet (the family tends to complain whenever I play unsavory characters), but from what I've read it sounds like the Hylden would fit into the crazy category. I guess spending a few centuries banished to Hell could drive anyone into a psychotic, murderous rage (see above "they deserve it" baloney).

In short, are the Hylden evil? No. Are they crazed psychopaths bent on revenge? Yes.

card
24th Feb 2004, 08:44
what if the hylden are not themselves anymore? hmmm maybe they're controlled by some evil monster or something...
The Sarafan Lord:
It was justice, for our banishment from the world. You see what it has made of our once fair race?
they were once fair and peaceful....now they are mutants...

DarkWraith
24th Feb 2004, 09:53
Lets face it, neither the Ancientsor the Hylden are what they once were. The Ancients are all but extinct and the Hylden have been warped by their banishment. They may have both started with a noble cause in mind but it isn't that way at the end of Defiance.

Also it depends what point of view you are taking. If you are Hylden they you think you are good and the ancients are bad and visa versa.

To be honest I don't think the question of who is good and who is evil is really relevant within the Ancient Vs Hylden struggle. The whole thing has moved way beyond that.

DW

Elyon
24th Feb 2004, 09:55
I surmise that the demonic dimension truly did make the Hylden crazy with hate, at first i believe the Ancients in their blind belief in their rightous cause (kinda like the Church during the crusades and all those jihads from the Muslims) committed evil acts by starting wars with the Hylden, the Hylde were at first innocent but their once fair and assumingly peaceful race has fell to blind hatred and possibly derangement from the demon dimension, it must be noted that the seer in BO2 who is a female Hylden who escaped the banishment doesnt seem to carry any vendetta against the ancients, it was stated that she owed vorador for some past favour and also the Hylden Lord tried to kill her which is ironic since she is herself a Hylden and possibly the only true Hylden left

Omni_Sephiroth
24th Feb 2004, 12:06
Originally posted by The Angel of Death
yes thats yat i mean by it i would say u 1st see this in sr2 when raziel meets him Although i agree he dose seem good he also is still a believer in the Elder god when he said the Hylden banished us from Gods Grace and "God" turned his sight from us and fell silent

Darkmaster
24th Feb 2004, 13:06
Both Vampires and Hylden have shown that neither of them are saints and thats what I like about the story.It's not a clear-cut case of good versus evil,"history is written by the victors" in Raziel's words.Both races have their dirty secrets.But I am definetily with the vampires because of what happens to Nosgoth when the Hylden come out.

van_HellSing PL
24th Feb 2004, 14:51
What I'd like to see is a fragile alliance between Kain and the Hylden Lord against Elder God. Maybe even the HL as a playable character?

hippl5
25th Feb 2004, 02:15
i choose nuetral since nobody really knows who started the war... nobody except Amy

LOK kain is the greatest
25th Feb 2004, 02:32
i agree with neutral. they may be ready to kill every one but i dont think there evil just.....misunderstood.:p




Luv KITG

Omni_Sephiroth
25th Feb 2004, 05:27
Originally posted by hippl5
i choose nuetral since nobody really knows who started the war... nobody except Amy
We dont? correct me if im wrong but wach the clip 'History is Written by the Victors' it tell how the war started from the Hyldens point of veiw atlest :) :p

The Warrior Servant
25th Feb 2004, 06:27
First of all we need to address the very concepts of good and evil (bad) and without entering into a completely whole other debate, let me take the stance of the concept of “good” not existing only levels of evil, hence the question is refined to:

“How evil are the Hylden?”

Now I’ll admit that the Hylden have the right to be pissed off after being banished to the demon dimension and that the Ancients are no set of angels either.

I will not comment on the cause of the war between the two as the only information we’ve received are meagre fragments from biased sources. So let’s look at what they did.

The Hylden cursed the Ancients with sterility (an interesting way of committing genocide) and immortality (an ironic punishment to remove them from the wheel of fate) both of which was a retaliation to the banishment, however they also curse the Ancients with blood lust, and as Janos stated in SR2, making them predators upon the humans. Now we also know that at the time of the war the Humans had little next to know power or influence so the fact that the Hylden would curse the ancients with this blood lust to pray upon a race probably not involved in the war raises the Hylden’s evil level.

Now drawing to the end of the war the Hylden produced the Mass and where working on a way of deployment just before they were banished. This was supposed to be attuned to every thing and with a single thought would destroy everything bar the Hylden. This concept of mass genocide, there to destroy everything but them in Nosgoth increases the Hylden’s evil level even more, and when you consider that the Mass was designed, built, and meant to be deployed before the Hylden were banished, then we are talking about the true Hylden and not the twisted deformed Hylden of the demonic dimension which sends their evil level skyrocketing through the roof. (Consider the fact that with the Mass all they had to do is instantaneous destroy all the Ancients and that’s it, but opted to destroy everything)

Finally, due to the various curses placed on them, vampires have semi (repeat SEMI) legitimate reason for their treatment of Humans, What’s the Hylden’s excuse? (Once again Hylden evil level goes up, not that it matters in comparison to the previous point.)

So, since the level of evil acts that the Hylden committed is so very, very high, in answering the question ”Are the Hylden really so bad?” I can say completely, and utterly, and unequivocally:

YES the Hylden ARE really SO BAD!

Shifter
25th Feb 2004, 09:48
thay are bad and that they where in a hell 4 the past 1000 years is no reason 2 start killing evry one

Zephon
25th Feb 2004, 15:56
in BO2 janos said the hylden needed humans 2 drain of energy. the mass would have killed them probably.

& why sterility would matter when they are immortal is a mystery to me

The Warrior Servant
25th Feb 2004, 16:03
Originally posted by Zephon

& why sterility would matter when they are immortal is a mystery to me

If vampires weren't sterile then their numbers would only increase and as any tactician knows you want to reduce your enemies numbers not increase them.

Woetothecongoured
25th Feb 2004, 18:03
warrior servant said, Finally, due to the various curses placed on them, vampires have semi (repeat SEMI) legitimate reason for their treatment of Humans, What’s the Hylden’s excuse? (Once again Hylden evil level goes up, not that it matters in comparison to the previous point.) uhhhh, humans can be turned into vampires:)

hippl5
25th Feb 2004, 23:47
Originally posted by Omni_Sephiroth
We dont? correct me if im wrong but wach the clip 'History is Written by the Victors' it tell how the war started from the Hyldens point of veiw atlest :) :p

well this is kind of like a court case... we need to hear both sides of the story...

Janos: Thats not fair! they started it!

Zadok
26th Feb 2004, 10:42
Your forgetting one last important point:

The Pillars of nosgoth! which race were choosen to protect and serve the pillars? was it the hylden?nope - it was the vampires! their must have been agood enough reason for them to do be the guardians rather then the hylden.

so it may seem all is not right with the hylden race...

Vampmaster
26th Feb 2004, 13:08
They were the good guys before the banishment. If they wanted to wipe out the hylden before that, then it would have been kind of a dumb idea to curse the vampires with immortality. It wasn't until the effects of the demon dimension turned them mad that they began their attempts at genocide. I beleive that under a different rule (Kains rule) and if their madness is healed by the Spirit Reaver, it may be safe to release them. Then they may resume war on the true enemy (Squiddy and his servants) instead of the vampires.

The Warrior Servant
26th Feb 2004, 14:13
Originally posted by Woetothecongoured
warrior servant said, Finally, due to the various curses placed on them, vampires have semi (repeat SEMI) legitimate reason for their treatment of Humans, What’s the Hylden’s excuse? (Once again Hylden evil level goes up, not that it matters in comparison to the previous point.) uhhhh, humans can be turned into vampires:)


Think about it for a second, if the Hylden succeeded deploying the Mass then there would be no vampires, hence there would be no vampires to turn humans into vampires, hence there would be no threat to the Hylden of Human's becoming vampires.



Originally posted by Vampmaster
. It wasn't until the effects of the demon dimension turned them mad that they began their attempts at genocide.


Th Hylden started their mass genocidal quest before being banished, the Mass would have been deployed as soon as it was ready to be used, luckily the vampires banished them first.

Vampmaster
26th Feb 2004, 15:54
Still, this may have been due to the Hylden Lord being in charge. Members of the vampires, hylden and humans all used propaganda to sway some of their race and to their way of thinking and forced others into complying. There's examples of "join us or die like the enemy" in real life, although I can't refer to them here.

hippl5
26th Feb 2004, 17:24
Originally posted by Vampmaster
They were the good guys before the banishment. If they wanted to wipe out the hylden before that, then it would have been kind of a dumb idea to curse the vampires with immortality. It wasn't until the effects of the demon dimension turned them mad that they began their attempts at genocide. I beleive that under a different rule (Kains rule) and if their madness is healed by the Spirit Reaver, it may be safe to release them. Then they may resume war on the true enemy (Squiddy and his servants) instead of the vampires.

Good before banished?

In blood omen 2 the builder said they were banished before finishing the mass... that means they were fighting before their banishment

WraithStar
28th Feb 2004, 18:12
Originally posted by Zadok
Your forgetting one last important point:

The Pillars of nosgoth! which race were choosen to protect and serve the pillars? was it the hylden?nope - it was the vampires! their must have been agood enough reason for them to do be the guardians rather then the hylden.

so it may seem all is not right with the hylden race...

The Ancients built and raised the Pillars, so I assume they had a way to ensure that they would be chosen as Guardians. Why would the Pillars choose Hylden guardians when the sole purpose of the Pillars is to keep the Hylden imprisoned in the other dimension?

Mrxknown
28th Feb 2004, 18:47
Also it is known that before being banished the Hylden cursed the Ancients. So it can be assumed that since they were already working on the Mass that had planned to destroy everything. Why? Cause the Elder God still had control over all except the Hylden.

But since that plan couldn't be fullfilled they opted to curse the vampires, perhaps as a backup plan?

Laxely
29th Feb 2004, 17:54
There's only one way to settle this......FIGHT!

Tall-Guy
29th Feb 2004, 21:43
I would like to note that feeling hatred to the Hylden is very natural.
Lets drop for a second the moral point of the issue and look more about the game itself and the stage.

The game itself, expose us to the Ancient race.
Raziel looks like an Ancient, Janos is an Ancient (which give us alot of information about the Ancient themselves), etc.
Because we see and hear more Ancients through the game, it is much simpler for the mind to dislike the Hylden.
Moreover- Lets look on the voice acting.
Janos voice is proud and mild. On the other hand, the Sarafan lord, or the other Hylden voices and evil.

My point is that through all the story, Amy is trying to give us the feeling that the Hylden are bad.

What I believe in?
I really like Manga. The strongest idea about Manga, is that there in no bad or good characters...

Vampmaster
1st Mar 2004, 11:16
The Sarafan were bad guys, as were the Leigons of the Nemesis. But does that mean all the humans are?

No.

The Warrior Servant
1st Mar 2004, 15:08
Originally posted by Vampmaster
The Sarafan were bad guys, as were the Leigons of the Nemesis. But does that mean all the humans are?

No.


I'll concede that in previous post I jumped to the conclusion that all Hylden are bad, and that Vampmaster makes a valid point in reference to the humans, and that we don't know enough about the Hylden to claim that they are all bad,
BUT
Upon pondering it here is my reasoning for concluding they are bad. The Ancients fought the Hylden for a millennium in a war
which would have no end (both sides probably using propaganda to rally their forces and extend the war.) Now as a any military philosopher will tell in a war of extremes only the complete irradiation of one side (probably both) could end a war like this (hence the fear in our world of a possible WWIII.) The Ancients and Hylden fought a war of such extreme but instead of irradiating the Hylden, the Ancients showed some sign of compassion and only banished the Hylden. NOW if the Ancients showed this kind of compassion to aggressor Hylden then it stands to reason that they would not banish non-aggressor Hylden (ie. Hylden that chose not to fight.) But there is indication that ALL Hylden were banished and there for we can conclude that there were NO non-aggressor Hylden. Hence it is quite reasonable to say that the Hylden were in favour of the deployment of the Mass which would genocide not just the Ancients (which lets face it was a semi-legitimate act in this kind of war) but also the Humans plus every other living creature, WHICH is INEXCUSABLE even in this kind of war.

There for, this allows us the state quite clearly that
the Hylden ARE really that bad.

WraithStar
1st Mar 2004, 15:34
Actually, not all Hylden were banished. The Seer is still in Nosgoth and in one of the Q&A's she's described as an extremely powerful Hylden who appears to have escaped the binding.

On another topic, I got the impression that humans were siding with the Ancients. That would at least explain why the Hylden would view them as enemies as well. I'm sticking with Neutral because, frankly, I've seen people I like from both sides (Janos and the Seer) and I've seen atrocities committed by both sides in the murals. I'm just going to give up and say both sides were stupid until CD clarifies things a little more.

The Warrior Servant
1st Mar 2004, 16:01
Originally posted by WraithStar
The Seer is still in Nosgoth and in one of the Q&A's she's described as an extremely powerful Hylden who appears to have escaped the binding.
[/B]

I would seriously question whether the Seer is a true Hylden. I have done a comparison study based on screen shot of her as well as murals of the original Hylden from BO2. Although she has Hylden characteristics from the neck down, her head contains hair and ears. Based on the murals of the Hylden (with an emphasis on the Female Hylden), they don't have hair or ears, indeed these are more a vampire trait. Hence I would conclude that she's a hybrid of the two and she escaped the binding because she's part Vampire.

WraithStar
1st Mar 2004, 16:16
If she is a hybrid, that would imply that the Ancients and the Hylden are the same species (or the offspring wouldn't be viable). If an Ancient and a Hylden fell in love with each other, that brings us back to the idea that not all individuals agree with the majority. Therefore, you can't just say "All Hylden are good" or "All Hylden are bad". It's not the same as saying "All those people who want to kill us are bad" because maybe not all of the Hylden were homicidal. Not enough information has been given to make a real statement of good/evil regarding either the Ancients or the Hylden.

The Warrior Servant
1st Mar 2004, 16:38
Originally posted by WraithStar
If she is a hybrid, that would imply that the Ancients and the Hylden are the same species (or the offspring wouldn't be viable). If an Ancient and a Hylden fell in love with each other, that brings us back to the idea that not all individuals agree with the majority. Therefore, you can't just say "All Hylden are good" or "All Hylden are bad". It's not the same as saying "All those people who want to kill us are bad" because maybe not all of the Hylden were homicidal. Not enough information has been given to make a real statement of good/evil regarding either the Ancients or the Hylden.

I will not deny that they are the same species, indeed I intend on if not adding to a tread then starting a thread which among other things proposes that very idea (just searching to see if its been mentioned already for the moment.) Besides the topic of this thread is that "Are the Hylden really so bad?" and even if there was a "Romeo & Juliet"-esk liaison between an Ancient and Hylden, this would be an exception to the general rule, and the way I interpret this question is the badness or evilness (see post somewhere above for more detail of evilness) of Hylden in general. So although we may have exceptions in general the Hylden are bad for the various reasons I've already mentioned in other posts.

Zephon
2nd Mar 2004, 15:23
Originally posted by The Warrior Servant
I'll concede that in previous post I jumped to the conclusion that all Hylden are bad, and that Vampmaster makes a valid point in reference to the humans, and that we don't know enough about the Hylden to claim that they are all bad,
BUT
Upon pondering it here is my reasoning for concluding they are bad. The Ancients fought the Hylden for a millennium in a war
which would have no end (both sides probably using propaganda to rally their forces and extend the war.) Now as a any military philosopher will tell in a war of extremes only the complete irradiation of one side (probably both) could end a war like this (hence the fear in our world of a possible WWIII.) The Ancients and Hylden fought a war of such extreme but instead of irradiating the Hylden, the Ancients showed some sign of compassion and only banished the Hylden. NOW if the Ancients showed this kind of compassion to aggressor Hylden then it stands to reason that they would not banish non-aggressor Hylden (ie. Hylden that chose not to fight.) But there is indication that ALL Hylden were banished and there for we can conclude that there were NO non-aggressor Hylden. Hence it is quite reasonable to say that the Hylden were in favour of the deployment of the Mass which would genocide not just the Ancients (which lets face it was a semi-legitimate act in this kind of war) but also the Humans plus every other living creature, WHICH is INEXCUSABLE even in this kind of war.

There for, this allows us the state quite clearly that
the Hylden ARE really that bad.

actually, what would you prefer?

instant death, or eternity in the demon realm, for your all you race?

this includes all hylden, even those born thousands of years after

plot man
2nd Mar 2004, 17:09
I gotta say, I think every character/race in the whole series has their moments of evil - just like real people. There is no real right and wrong side. Both seem like bad-. You just have to decide which one you like best, and clearly the games want to steer you towards the vampires. I like the character Kain so much that I am happy to play along.

WraithStar
2nd Mar 2004, 21:37
Originally posted by plot man
I gotta say, I think every character/race in the whole series has their moments of evil - just like real people. There is no real right and wrong side. Both seem like bad-. You just have to decide which one you like best, and clearly the games want to steer you towards the vampires. I like the character Kain so much that I am happy to play along.

Well said. That's the exact feeling I get from the games.