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View Full Version : [SPOILER] Some questions about Janos and Vorador...



sniperbr0
21st Feb 2004, 01:45
the questions are:

why in SR2 Vorador doesnt know Raziel and in Defiance he knows him??? and Why didnt Vorador tell Raziel that he got the body of Janos after his death???

about Janos and the prophecy, how can Janos expect to unite the reavers if the adversary would fight for the Hylden??? btw, raziel is the adversary, but he do not wish to do what the hylden want and if he truly has free will, how can everything be foretold, like Janos knowing who Raziel is and expecting him in SR2, why does he say: "Raziel, my child, what have they done to you???", also the forging of the wraith blade through the chambers, if the bearer of the wraith blade was the adversary, fighting for the hylden, why the vampire´s prophecy tells about a fight if it was only for one purpose: to enhance the Soul Reaver??? Why did they knew how to the Enhanced Reaver be used if they didnt know the elder god, to defeat the Hylden race during their invasion??? Did they knew that Raziel would come and fight the vampire hero for the same purpose that Raziel did (to restore balance to nosgoth)??? I think Janos didnt expect to be ressurect by Raziel, if Raziel is truly the savior foretold by the prophecy and known by the legendary vampires (SR2 Janos scene).

Camus Audron
21st Feb 2004, 05:08
holy sniper b....did you take a single breath while typing that? all the phrases are meshed together, and it makes your post really hard to understand...but I'lll try to answer you =)...with my interpretation of course :p



"why in SR2 Vorador doesnt know Raziel and in Defiance he knows him??? "

Well...you see Defiance actually hapens later than the SR2 meeting of vorador and raziel, if you make a little memory, Raziel's SR2 visit to the BO era, was actually 30 years before BO, while defiance happens at the same time BO goes on, more towards the end (the end of BO is when the pillar crumble, the moment when Kain refuses sacrifice).

"and Why didnt Vorador tell Raziel that he got the body of Janos after his death??? "
What do you mean? Vorador did tell raziel...in defiance.
Did you mean in SR2? well, it seemed to me like Vorador didnt trust raziel in SR2, he knew he could be either the Hylden champion or the Ancient champion, and his look was rather demonic, so he probably didnt want to hep raziel much in case he was Hylden.

um your second paragraph, is practically imposible to read....so I'll just lay out some ideas which seem like they arent clear to you.

Raziel was both the hylden, and the ancient hero, the murals depicted two sides of him, the side that revealed against the EG, with a fantasmal blade, and the side that helped vampires, with the reaver. Raziel is both, and the Soul reaver is both fantasmal and the reaver.

You know...the predictions are a messy thing, they ones who make them only get loose signs of what the future is going to be, they dont get clar pictures. To get the clear pictures they have to interpretate them on their own.Whoever made two champion murals, missinterpretated whatever signs he was given, and thought it was a real fight between a hylden hero and an ancient hero, but it was actually Raziel's inner fight between both ideologies.
The outcome of the battle, which we see as each hero slaying the other, is the sacrifice. Sacrifice is the way in which Raziel resigns both ideologies, which are the two sides of his identity, therefore redeeming and destroying his persona. Since whoever made the murals had two heroes in mind, it seemed imposible that both heros won the battle and lost their life at the same time, so the only posible meaning was that there were two outcomes, which we see in the murals.

It seems somehow, that the collection of the balance guardian's spirits (what we see as a beautyfull Ariel in the end of LOKD) is inherently enlightened, and sees the exact role of the scion of balance, that is why she was the only one that could tell Raziel that he needed to go into the blade.

It is a fact none of the other ancients knew about the EG's true nature, they all worshipped him. Janos inlcuded.

This is all my interpretation based on what happens in the games, and Amy's interviews...but if you want to make your own interpretation you can check the facts in blincon's site...and replaying the game

DJpick
21st Feb 2004, 19:49
why in SR2 Vorador doesnt know Raziel and in Defiance he knows him
Vorador DID know Raziel, but probably only by description. Then in Defiance Vorador met him a second time.

Vorador knew what Raziel was, he just was vague in his talking.

how can Janos expect to unite the reavers if the adversary would fight for the Hylden
Because Janos thought he was the Ancient Champion. See, the Hylden and Ancients have their champions. They don't realize Raziel is both, because they each see him as their own.

Sniper, I'm assuming English isn't your native language, but if you could clear that up a bit (punctuation most definitely) we might be able to help you answer your questions.

sniperbr0
21st Feb 2004, 22:41
thanks camus audron and djpick, lol, you are right djpick, English isnt my native language, its portuguese (Brazil), I´ll rewrite it, just wait a second....................................................................................................................................................................................................

I understood that Vorador was hiding something when Raziel meets him in SR2, but he did know about the prophecy and as Janos thought he was the vampire hero, why not Vorador told him the truth??? ***dont say that CD didnt wish to tell everyone what the next game was all about when they made SR2!***

and in Defiance, when Janos saw on what side Raziel was, I know that he knew that Raziel wouldnt do the wrong thing, so he wanted him to get the enahnced reaver to enhance the blade, so why a fight??? because some things need to be sacrificed to let the good things happen??? it was Janos and the other ancient vampires who decided the prophecy, so where is the Raziel´s free will???






oh now its done, see:
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the questions are:

1 - about Janos and the prophecy, how can Janos expect to unite the reavers if the adversary would fight for the Hylden??? Raziel didnt know who he was in the beginning
2 - how can everything be foretold, like Janos knowing who Raziel is and expecting him in SR2, why does he say: "Raziel, my child, what have they done to you???"???
3 - also the forging of the wraith blade through the chambers, if the bearer of the wraith blade was the adversary, why the vampire´s prophecy tells about a Hylden Hero if it was only for one purpose: to enhance the Soul Reaver to kill the Hylden and banish them again??? it isnt a hero...
4 - Why did they knew how the Enhanced Reaver be used if they didnt know the elder god, to defeat the Hylden race during their invasion??? they didnt know that the god was too bad. Why is needed a super special weapon to fight the hylden if they had already a special weapon???
5 - Did they knew that Raziel would come and fight the vampire hero for the same purpose that Raziel did (to restore balance to nosgoth)??? Raziel has free will and suffered the affect of the elder god ideas in the beginning.
6 - I think Janos didnt expect to be ressurect by Raziel, if Raziel is in truth the savior foretold by the prophecy and known by the legendary vampires (SR2 Janos scene), why to make such drama for a messiah, which was protected by the same god they loved in the past???

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DJpick
22nd Feb 2004, 00:30
lol, you are right djpick, English isnt my native language, its portuguese (Brazil), I´ll rewrite it, just wait a second....................................................................................................................................................................................................
I wasn't complaining, just trying to help you out in getting your questions answered :)

so why a fight??? because some things need to be sacrificed to let the good things happen???
I'm not sure I understand you but are you talking about Janos and Raziel? You do know that wasn't Janos he was fighting right? :)

when Janos saw on what side Raziel was
Raziel was never on A side. Each side tried to manipulate him into benefiting their side, but Raziel himself was never a part of one or the other. It was just that his decisions would benefit one race or the other, not that he was a Hero of one.

1 - about Janos and the prophecy, how can Janos expect to unite the reavers if the adversary would fight for the Hylden??? Raziel didnt know who he was in the beginning
Raziel didn't chose to fight for the Hylden. I don't even think the Ancients knew that the Hylden claimed him. I think each said saw a figure from the future with free will, and tried to manipulate Raziel into acting on their behalf. But in the end, Janos realized he may have chosen the wrong "savior" after all.

2 - how can everything be foretold, like Janos knowing who Raziel is and expecting him in SR2, why does he say: "Raziel, my child, what have they done to you???"???
Because time is immutable. First off, there WAS an ancient timestreamer, a "winged Moebius" if you will, and they could see into time just like Moebius could. Or it's possible the EG gave them visions since he was their oracle.

But as to what he meant "What have they done to you?" it's because Raziel didn't look as Janos expected him to. They were expecting the Savior to look like the one from the last "Scion" mural from Defiance. Or ATLEAST similar to an Ancient. Yet when Raziel appeared he was all dead and ragged. So he assumed Raziel WAS the Savior, yet somehow he had been destroyed.

3 - also the forging of the wraith blade through the chambers, if the bearer of the wraith blade was the adversary, why the vampire´s prophecy tells about a Hylden Hero if it was only for one purpose: to enhance the Soul Reaver to kill the Hylden and banish them again??? it isnt a hero...
Like I said, Raziel wasn't really a Champion for either race. He wasn't doing anything for them, but they were trying to get him to do stuff for them. His decisions would affect the outcome for the Ancients or Hylden.

4 - Why did they knew how the Enhanced Reaver be used if they didnt know the elder god, to defeat the Hylden race during their invasion??? they didnt know that the god was too bad. Why is needed a super special weapon to fight the hylden if they had already a special weapon???
I don't think they knew the "cleansed" or "super" or whatever it is Reaver would hurt the EG. It was a side effect of the cleansing I think.

Also, they didn't really have the weapon, the Reaver was forged after the Hyden were banished.

5 - Did they knew that Raziel would come and fight the vampire hero for the same purpose that Raziel did (to restore balance to nosgoth)??? Raziel has free will and suffered the affect of the elder god ideas in the beginning.
I think I understand what you're misunderstanding now :) The murals of the Ancient and Hylden champions do not represent Kain and Raziel. Those Murals represent Raziel BOTH. They represent his "dual" destiny. If Raziel acts one way, the Ancients win. If he acts the opposite, the Hylden win. He doesn't represent the murals, the murals represent him.

As for the "free will" that's still questionable. CD has already said time is pretty much immutable. So you can make a change, but in the long run, it doesn't change anything drastically. We'll have to see what they do with it later on I guess.

6 - I think Janos didnt expect to be ressurect by Raziel, if Raziel is in truth the savior foretold by the prophecy and known by the legendary vampires (SR2 Janos scene), why to make such drama for a messiah, which was protected by the same god they loved in the past???
If you watched the Murals, you would see that EG doesn't love them though. In fact, when the EG turned his back on the Ancients, they were no longer able to return to the Wheel of Fate. So slowly they may have realized the EG isn't the god they thought he would be. Es "un mal dios" technically :) (sorry, it's spanish, but I thought it might help some, if you know your Portuñol :)).

I don't think Janos expected it either, because in BO1 he wasn't ressurected originally. It wasn't until the changes in SR2 that Janos even came back to life, which then leads to BO2. But after Defiance, Raziel may not be the one from the prophecy, he might be the False Savior. You could say Kain is Jesus, and Raziel is Brian (any Monty Python fans should get that analogy :)).