PDA

View Full Version : Very Dissapointed: Petition for Change



iAmTaffer
19th Feb 2004, 22:24
I have been a serious Thief fan ever since the first game. The concept, the atmosphere, and the game play, was and still is, the perfect example of how a game like this should be made.

I just finished reading the preview on GameSpy.com about Thief 3, and I am very, very disappointed. I'm going to list my reasons why I am disappointed at what I've seen so far, and I want to see if we can't get the attention of the developers with our feedback.


All of these points are based on one principle: If it was perfect before, don't fix it or try to make it fancier.
[list=1]
Third Person view is absolutely not necessary to the game, and by the looks of things, it doesn’t look like its going to be all that impressive anyways. It’s just some fancy superfluous feature that has no rhyme or reason. Anything that can be done with third person could easily be accomplished via First person leaning and Garret's mechanical eye. (Note: Garret's cloak, a vital part of his image, will be missing. I imagine this will change the game's feel immensely)
The new name "Thief: Deadly Shadows". This is possibly one of the least original names I have ever heard, and it certainly doesn’t hold a candle to the atmosphere and involving game play that the previous games had. The previous titles had something to do with the plot! This title is way too unoriginal!
The sights that you use in order to aim are now attached to the bow itself and with fancy engravings and such. The old sights worked fine in the first two games when it just appeared, and the fancy designs in the screenshots only serve to cheapen the atmosphere and make it less original.
The generic and unoriginal gem with thee compass around it. The original games didn’t have a compass like that, and the interface suited its purposes and didn’t catch your eye. Why should it? What’s more, the original game made you look at the map and compass inorder to determine where you were going, instead of having the compass right on screen where it is not needed. This is a feature I've noticed in alot of the resent games, and I really dont like it.
Lastly, I want to bring up more of a concern rather than an issue, regarding a gut feeling I have. I'm afraid that this installment of Thief is going to be changed (as was Deus Ex: Invisible War) to suit the XBOX, making the PC version seem lacking and ill suited to carry the Thief name. I also have a feeling that the AI will not have improved over the flawed AI seen in Invisible War. If this game gets released and it becomes apparent that it is essentially just an Invisible War "mod" so to speak, I will be sorely dissapointed.
[/list=1]

If possible I would like to make this post into a sort of petition if you will, against these new additions that seem to cheapen the game for the sake of simplicity and mainstream XBOX users. I find it really unfair that they would change important details in the game that certainly do not need to be changed.

BrokenArts
19th Feb 2004, 22:39
Not to be a wet blanket, a lot of your concerns, yes very valid, have already been brought up on the other forums, TTLG and Ion Storm Forum. If in doubt, go check them out.

iAmTaffer
19th Feb 2004, 22:42
I dont frequent those boards, but either way it doesnt hurt to have these conserns posted on this board aswell.

BrokenArts
19th Feb 2004, 22:53
http://www.ttlg.com/forums/

There is a T3 forum.

And Ion Storm.

http://66.193.119.177/

Kerghan
19th Feb 2004, 23:06
I think that a lot of the things they're putting into T3 could make it really fun. They are adding features, not taking away features (except for the rope arrow). I am not really concerned with any of the things mentioned above, but I do have other concerns like...

1. A ton of small areas hooked up to form a 'large area', meaning tons of loading screens.

2. Auto-aiming dumbing down gameplay on both systems. (Imagine having to hold down a button to enter a 'parry mode' with your target, like in Soul Reaver type games).

3. An overall feeling of repetetiveness. They might have to limit the textures, making things seem a bit...dull. I remember back in Thief 2, wandering from the massive city areas to the cave full of crazy cavemen and then an enchanted forest full of not so friendly trees (sounds silly but it the game amazingly managed to pull it off without making it seem like a bad fantasy movie from the 80s). Wasn't there a submarine-type machine too in one area? Anyway, Imagine going through the same dull castle/city textures througout the whole game in T3.

4. Visual lag! Enough said about that one.

There are even more, but much of this if not all of it has been said before. These are just my major concerns though. Basically, I don't want console limitations to turn T3 into a streamlined game for the masses.

HOC
19th Feb 2004, 23:19
Third Person view is absolutely not necessary to the game, and by the looks of things, it doesn’t look like its going to be all that impressive anyways. It’s just some fancy superfluous feature that has no rhyme or reason. Anything that can be done with third person could easily be accomplished via First person leaning and Garret's mechanical eye. (Note: Garret's cloak, a vital part of his image, will be missing. I imagine this will change the game's feel immensely)

used to feel the same way. but with the havoc code being apart of the game, there will no longer be static shadows with the addition of dynamic lighting. so a 3rd person view may very well be useful if you want to make sure a guard doesn't see your shadow on a wall. let's hope though that the AI is good enough to catch onto shadows now. if not, then yeah....3rd person would be entirely useless. we should start a forum betting pool on whether or not Ion Storm will f*** up royally in this regard.

The new name "Thief: Deadly Shadows". This is possibly one of the least original names I have ever heard, and it certainly doesn’t hold a candle to the atmosphere and involving game play that the previous games had. The previous titles had something to do with the plot! This title is way too unoriginal!

unoriginal, sure. but how are you so sure it won't have anything to do with the plot? i've got a few ideas on how it will tie into the plot...although i'm just not certain if my guesses will be correct.

The sights that you use in order to aim are now attached to the bow itself and with fancy engravings and such. The old sights worked fine in the first two games when it just appeared, and the fancy designs in the screenshots only serve to cheapen the atmosphere and make it less original.

ok, so ya don't like the new bow's sighting. and being that you're probably the first person to complain about this (from what i've seen), is not likely to be a worthy addition to a petition.

The generic and unoriginal gem with thee compass around it. The original games didn’t have a compass like that, and the interface suited its purposes and didn’t catch your eye. Why should it? What’s more, the original game made you look at the map and compass inorder to determine where you were going, instead of having the compass right on screen where it is not needed. This is a feature I've noticed in alot of the resent games, and I really dont like it.

the gem is useful. but i do agree about the compass.

Lastly, I want to bring up more of a concern rather than an issue, regarding a gut feeling I have. I'm afraid that this installment of Thief is going to be changed (as was Deus Ex: Invisible War) to suit the XBOX, making the PC version seem lacking and ill suited to carry the Thief name. I also have a feeling that the AI will not have improved over the flawed AI seen in Invisible War. If this game gets released and it becomes apparent that it is essentially just an Invisible War "mod" so to speak, I will be sorely dissapointed.

concerning the pc/xbox issue...well, i can't speak for everyone. but if the pc version does come off as a port, then either eidos or ion storm better be ready to refund my money or purchase me an xbox. cause this would end up being the last game i buy from them, but not the last game i play.

thegrommit
20th Feb 2004, 01:17
All of these points are based on one principle: If it was perfect before, don't fix it or try to make it fancier.


In which case, there are plenty of fan missions for the first two games you can play.

Ultimately, what matters is whether the game is fun to play. If it is, then petty (IMO) things like the design of the gem or the sights will be irrelevant.

BTW, how does the title of the game affect gameplay?

littlek
20th Feb 2004, 02:08
I am just going to wait and play the game before making a judgement. If I am disappointed, I have plenty of FM's to play and the first two games are a joy to replay. But I have to have faith that T3 will be great.

CleptoManiac
20th Feb 2004, 02:22
I think that for this game, context, depth and realism are ten billion times more important than all the issues you've raised combined.

context:
the feeling you're part of something big, broad, and important, in which you belong;

depth:
perhaps the hardest to render, it's all about delivering atmosphere, and timeless events that you're never going to forget;

realism:
the details which make a game worthy of respect.


The failure to deliver this is, well above all, what "cheapens the game for the sake of simplicity and mainstream XBOX users".


--- End of 'MIT grad' zone -- :-b

Quillan
20th Feb 2004, 03:06
This is not intended as a flame, but the original poster is wrong on certain counts. After reading it, I had to drop my old disk of Thief into the drive, fire it up, and take the following screenshot:

<img src=http://home.bellsouth.net/coDataImages/p/Groups/44/44709/pages/110534/Bowcompass.jpg>

Note the bow sight, attached to the bow, and the compass onscreen in the lower right hand corner. This is from Thief: The Dark Project, v1.33.

As far as third person view goes, I happen to like it. Did any of you play Splinter Cell? Third person stealth. There are advantages and disadvantages to the technique, obviously. It hurts immersion, for starters. It allows for some unrealistic stuff, like you being able to see around a corner. But, it does make it easier to postition the main character, and compensates to some extent for computer algorithms. Example, if you want to peek around a corner in real life, you can just barely lean out far enough for one eye to see around it. That won't happen in a PC game. You wind up with the characters entire head and part of his body sticking out, easily seen by any AI there. Third person allows you to see what's there without being detected. If you don't like third person, fine, you don't have to use it. They are saying it is switchable on the fly.

Personally, I am more concerned with the game being made for the lowest common denominator, with stats and design tailored around the Xbox instead of a PC capabilities, or the quest for many methods of completion allowing you to play the game by NOT being stealth, destroying the atmosphere of the series. That's what I hope they don't do.

Mr. Perfect
20th Feb 2004, 03:48
The compass could be turned off by cycling the inventory though, and it actually times out after a certain amount of time I think. Just nitpicking.:D

bocefus
20th Feb 2004, 04:11
STOP STOP STOP!!!

This petition is the dumbest thing I've ever seen, as far as gaming goes. The Thief series is the best series ever created in my opinion and it would be a shame for it to be ruined. However it would take a great deal of effort to ruin it and I for one do not believe that it is possible for Ion Storm/Eidos to that (since they hired so many of the original creators.) The only valid point that you make is that it may be geared for the X-Box crowd. However like all games (I stress this to the infinite degree) the PC version is always better than the consol version regardless of intent. I believe that the reason for your concern lies more in the length of time that it took for Ion Storm/Eidos to release it... I for one think that it is a good thing that they did not rush the release and ruin the game for a quick buck (it could have happened very easily) and instead took their time. Oh yeah you do make a second point... the name... I agree it sucks but given the circumstance I can live with a crappy name as long as the game is good. As far as the deal with the third person view goes... if you don't like it then don't use it! The compas and jewel... why are you being so petty? The graphics and immersion will be 100 times better than what looking glass had... my only regret will be that Thief I & II never looked so good. The only thing that I am concerned about is the story... Can ion storm/eidos come up with a story as good as looking glass did? From what I've seen I believe that they can. One last thing... if anything I only hope that the game allows us to make custom maps/missions... that was the strongest card that Thief I & II had in my opinion and I hope that it carries on in Thief III

coldplay_josh_106
20th Feb 2004, 11:30
For those worried about the game appearing on the XBOX then you just have to look at games like Splinter Cell. This game was released on both platforms and was successful on both.

Although im slightly worried about the 3rd person view. it seems ion storm maybe stealing ideas from splinter cell, the reason thief was such an origanal game was because it had 1st person view.

ION STORM! THIS IS THIEF NOT SPLINTER CELL!!!

and why did they take away the 3 from the title. what was wrong with "THIEF 3: DEADLY SHADOWS" with the 3 apearing as 3 blade slashes on the box. I always thought that was cool!

Acronomic
20th Feb 2004, 12:05
Originally posted by iAmTaffer
I have been a serious Thief fan ever since the first game. The concept, the atmosphere, and the game play, was and still is, the perfect example of how a game like this should be made.

I just finished reading the preview on GameSpy.com about Thief 3, and I am very, very disappointed. I'm going to list my reasons why I am disappointed at what I've seen so far, and I want to see if we can't get the attention of the developers with our feedback.


All of these points are based on one principle: If it was perfect before, don't fix it or try to make it fancier.
[list=1]
Third Person view is absolutely not necessary to the game, and by the looks of things, it doesn’t look like its going to be all that impressive anyways. It’s just some fancy superfluous feature that has no rhyme or reason. Anything that can be done with third person could easily be accomplished via First person leaning and Garret's mechanical eye. (Note: Garret's cloak, a vital part of his image, will be missing. I imagine this will change the game's feel immensely)

- You can choose from 3rd and 1st person views, and Garrett never wore a cloak.

The new name "Thief: Deadly Shadows". This is possibly one of the least original names I have ever heard, and it certainly doesn’t hold a candle to the atmosphere and involving game play that the previous games had. The previous titles had something to do with the plot! This title is way too unoriginal!

-Maybe it does link to the game in some way, but I agree, the name isn't that original if not.

The sights that you use in order to aim are now attached to the bow itself and with fancy engravings and such. The old sights worked fine in the first two games when it just appeared, and the fancy designs in the screenshots only serve to cheapen the atmosphere and make it less original.

-The sight was always attached to the bow, and Garrett is a master thief; he deserves a fancy bow. ;)

The generic and unoriginal gem with thee compass around it. The original games didn’t have a compass like that, and the interface suited its purposes and didn’t catch your eye. Why should it? What’s more, the original game made you look at the map and compass inorder to determine where you were going, instead of having the compass right on screen where it is not needed. This is a feature I've noticed in alot of the resent games, and I really dont like it.

-Why shouldn't it catch your eye? It is the one thing in the interface you always need to keep an eye on. Besides, it looks cool.

Lastly, I want to bring up more of a concern rather than an issue, regarding a gut feeling I have. I'm afraid that this installment of Thief is going to be changed (as was Deus Ex: Invisible War) to suit the XBOX, making the PC version seem lacking and ill suited to carry the Thief name. I also have a feeling that the AI will not have improved over the flawed AI seen in Invisible War. If this game gets released and it becomes apparent that it is essentially just an Invisible War "mod" so to speak, I will be sorely dissapointed.

-The AI in DE: IW is absolutely not suited for stealth and responsive NPCs.... of course they wouldn't use it!!!

[/list=1]

If possible I would like to make this post into a sort of petition if you will, against these new additions that seem to cheapen the game for the sake of simplicity and mainstream XBOX users. I find it really unfair that they would change important details in the game that certainly do not need to be changed. ;) ;) :)

Thief-punk
20th Feb 2004, 12:28
Originally posted by iAmTaffer
I have been a serious Thief fan ever since the first game. The concept, the atmosphere, and the game play, was and still is, the perfect example of how a game like this should be made.

I just finished reading the preview on GameSpy.com about Thief 3, and I am very, very disappointed. I'm going to list my reasons why I am disappointed at what I've seen so far, and I want to see if we can't get the attention of the developers with our feedback.


All of these points are based on one principle: If it was perfect before, don't fix it or try to make it fancier.
[list=1]
Third Person view is absolutely not necessary to the game, and by the looks of things, it doesn’t look like its going to be all that impressive anyways. It’s just some fancy superfluous feature that has no rhyme or reason. Anything that can be done with third person could easily be accomplished via First person leaning and Garret's mechanical eye. (Note: Garret's cloak, a vital part of his image, will be missing. I imagine this will change the game's feel immensely)
The new name "Thief: Deadly Shadows". This is possibly one of the least original names I have ever heard, and it certainly doesn’t hold a candle to the atmosphere and involving game play that the previous games had. The previous titles had something to do with the plot! This title is way too unoriginal!
The sights that you use in order to aim are now attached to the bow itself and with fancy engravings and such. The old sights worked fine in the first two games when it just appeared, and the fancy designs in the screenshots only serve to cheapen the atmosphere and make it less original.
The generic and unoriginal gem with thee compass around it. The original games didn’t have a compass like that, and the interface suited its purposes and didn’t catch your eye. Why should it? What’s more, the original game made you look at the map and compass inorder to determine where you were going, instead of having the compass right on screen where it is not needed. This is a feature I've noticed in alot of the resent games, and I really dont like it.
Lastly, I want to bring up more of a concern rather than an issue, regarding a gut feeling I have. I'm afraid that this installment of Thief is going to be changed (as was Deus Ex: Invisible War) to suit the XBOX, making the PC version seem lacking and ill suited to carry the Thief name. I also have a feeling that the AI will not have improved over the flawed AI seen in Invisible War. If this game gets released and it becomes apparent that it is essentially just an Invisible War "mod" so to speak, I will be sorely dissapointed.
[/list=1]

If possible I would like to make this post into a sort of petition if you will, against these new additions that seem to cheapen the game for the sake of simplicity and mainstream XBOX users. I find it really unfair that they would change important details in the game that certainly do not need to be changed.

Damn it people! I don't get how you can complain this much without even played the demo yet. It's like critizising a movie before it was even released.

iAmTaffer-> You (and several others) act like a moron in my opinion. You don't know ***** about the game yet, except for the fact that you have seen a few screenshots, heard some rumours and read some articles. Damn it, at least wait 'til you have played the demo before you judge this game.

I'm gonna enter my own opinions on your issues below:

1. It may not be necessary, but it is there for those who rather play in 3rd person mode. You can just skip using it, what's the big deal? And if a masterthief wore a cloac during his missions, he would probably get stuck in bushes, stumble and fall etc. because of it.

2. As everyone already told you: how would you know if the title is part of the game or not? Wait 'til you have the game in your hands.

3. Again: HOW WOULD YOU KNOW? Do you belong to the Thief-team, or how would you possibly know anything about the sights affecting the atmosphere in a negative way. I'm getting tired of your bull****. A screenshot is nothing compared to the game.

4. Well, almost same answer as above. Just wait 'til you played the game. Then feel free to complain.

5. This is the only point where I could agree with you, still I don't believe that the game will lack the good old Thief-style. I trust Spector and the thief-team.

So there, these are my opinions. I am not worried at all about TDS, I believe it will be worth every single penny.

Thief-punk
20th Feb 2004, 12:40
Originally posted by coldplay_josh_106
and why did they take away the 3 from the title. what was wrong with "THIEF 3: DEADLY SHADOWS" with the 3 apearing as 3 blade slashes on the box. I always thought that was cool!

Simply because people who have never played Thief before should be able to buy this version without feeling that they missed something (even though they have :P). Plus it's the first Thief-game for X-Box. It's all 'bout the money.

iAmTaffer
20th Feb 2004, 20:27
Alrgiht, you guys have alot of good points. I'm just going by what i've seen so far, and it seemed (via screenshots and what i've read) that they've changed things that I dont feel need to be changed. my bad about the sights, i see they were a part of the bow (never realized that), but the rest stands true.

in what i've read and seen so far (aside from the typical promises that every developer makes about keeping the feel and atmosphere alive, which any hardcore gamer knows is like listening to a presidential candidate's promises) points toward them changing the game, and I don't feel so comfortable with that.

The only thing i've read that i find REALLY cool is the ability to go around Garret's neighborhood. I loved having to get into his appartment at the begining of [Thief 2 I think], and it was really cool to see the store he bought his stuff from [assasin mission in first game].

van_HellSing PL
20th Feb 2004, 22:00
What for do we need a petition like this? It won't change anything :rolleyes:.

TIM Darg
21st Feb 2004, 01:26
This whole 'end user anger' has gotten so out of proportion, i'm surprised no one threatened to attack the Ion Storm offices in exchange for changing the game back LOL

HOC
21st Feb 2004, 03:00
how has it been blown out of proportion? are you saying these aren't valid concerns?

ok, so no one here has played t: ds yet. but being that IS totally shafted a rather fair portion of their fan base and still have yet to do something about it, gives more legitimacy to a community's complaints.

as it stands now, the only redeeming value in the previews for a lot of people is the fact that more is being added than removed from the game. but that really isn't saying much when the game is being developed for two systems at the same time. which might mean that one system is gonna be unfortunate enough to receive the other's vast limitations...just like with the last game!

iAmTaffer
21st Feb 2004, 13:58
here here, well put. except im not sure the last game was made for any other system... unless you mean Deus Ex: Invisible War?

Thiefinthenight
21st Feb 2004, 14:32
I think Thief fans have reason to be concerned. Let em vent with the petition. All the hardcore fans like myself were really dissapointed when Looking Glass went belly up.

There seems to be a deliberate effort to shy away from naming the game Thief 3 which is a sign they my have tried to reinvent the wheel and distance themselves from the first 2 games.

Original Thief was a masterpiece of a game and this was because of the story and gameplay. Teenagers care about one thing only in todays games and that is graphics. Graphics is what sells and console game makers know this.

Guyver Sho
21st Feb 2004, 14:37
I resent that.

van_HellSing PL
21st Feb 2004, 14:52
Teenagers care about one thing only in todays games and that is graphics. Graphics is what sells and console game makers know this. The point is, T3 doesn't even have good graphics. Look at those watery textures, grotesque models, plant life that looks worse than in the previous games, the lack of water...

HOC
21st Feb 2004, 15:11
Originally posted by iAmTaffer
here here, well put. except im not sure the last game was made for any other system... unless you mean Deus Ex: Invisible War?

yeah, i was speaking about dx:iw. i didn't want to mention it by title because it's bad enough that vile dogsh** game ruined one series, don't want it tainting another.

although of course, i've mentioned in more than enough times on these parts of the eidos forums. but i swore i'd stop!

TIM Darg
21st Feb 2004, 16:08
Quote:
"T3 doesn't even have good graphics. Look at those watery textures, grotesque models, plant life that looks worse than in the previous games, the lack of water"

The latest gameplay video shows that Thief 3's graphics seem excellent overall, they are the foremost obvious sure-bet feature so far. This misleading portrayal of yours oversees everything that is good about them.

BrokenArts
21st Feb 2004, 16:21
The graphics look great to me, from what we have seen so far. I shall say it again, don't pass judgement till we have played the game.

The graphics, to me have that gritty, dark, (yes the gamma is high on them), it's set mainly at night, forboding, blackness, that is perfect for Thief. We have only seen a fraction, a minute glimpse of the game.

TIM Darg
21st Feb 2004, 16:26
Indeed.. I am very satisfied with that gritty, dark, forboding, blackness.. :)

operative x
20th Mar 2004, 21:15
I agree with most of iamtaffer said except 3 and 4. I think they add to the game in a positive way.

theBlackman
20th Mar 2004, 23:07
Regarding the compass, I seldom use it, and don't want it on the screen untill, and unless I specifically call it up from inventory.

It obscures the full view of the scene. True the health and amulet do to a degree, but not as much as does the compass in full depiction.

Be that as it may, it is years too late for us to moan about the game. It will not be the Thief we all love to play, and may have some redeeming features.

But with all the FM's out there (and I'm sure the ones to be forth-coming T3 or no), THIEF in all its glory should be around for a while yet.

I'll wait and see. But I am not optimistic.

tremere
25th Mar 2004, 12:16
Originally posted by Thief-punk
Damn it people! I don't get how you can complain this much without even played the demo yet. It's like critizising a movie before it was even released.

iAmTaffer-> You (and several others) act like a moron in my opinion. You don't know ***** about the game yet, except for the fact that you have seen a few screenshots, heard some rumours and read some articles. Damn it, at least wait 'til you have played the demo before you judge this game.

I'm gonna enter my own opinions on your issues below:

1. It may not be necessary, but it is there for those who rather play in 3rd person mode. You can just skip using it, what's the big deal? And if a masterthief wore a cloac during his missions, he would probably get stuck in bushes, stumble and fall etc. because of it.

2. As everyone already told you: how would you know if the title is part of the game or not? Wait 'til you have the game in your hands.

3. Again: HOW WOULD YOU KNOW? Do you belong to the Thief-team, or how would you possibly know anything about the sights affecting the atmosphere in a negative way. I'm getting tired of your bull****. A screenshot is nothing compared to the game.

4. Well, almost same answer as above. Just wait 'til you played the game. Then feel free to complain.

5. This is the only point where I could agree with you, still I don't believe that the game will lack the good old Thief-style. I trust Spector and the thief-team.

So there, these are my opinions. I am not worried at all about TDS, I believe it will be worth every single penny.

LMAO! Someone comes on here and says that others don't know ***** about the game, and that everyone is whining over a game that isn't even out yet. Yet he commits a VERY fatal mistake in his argument:

How is the game going to be improved from the footage and screenshots that we've seen, if we don't say anything about it BEFORE the game comes out? Ah, that's right. YOU will be the one complaining after the game comes out, saying something along the lines of "The developers never listen to us! We should have demanded more screenshots and footage!". Am I right on this? I think I am, since it happens EVERY time ANY game comes out. Grow up and smarten up. You'll be a better consumer by demanding changes on-the-fly, and you will get a better game by doing so.

triniphen
26th Mar 2004, 00:53
Awwww shut the hell up.

Peter_Smith
26th Mar 2004, 16:11
This thread fails to pass the iron claw test on many counts. Closed.