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SoulCat
19th Feb 2004, 12:32
Ok I do not mean to be rude in any way but
DONT ANY OF U CARE THAT RAZIEL IS GONE!!!!

Alright I know i havent been on here for AGES and havent gotten around to reading everyones threads, but from what i "have" read it seams that no one realy cares that we will never be able to play with Raziel again...that he as practicly dead traped in that reaver!! I mean the only reason I played the Blood Omen series was to understand Raziels story, not that i dont like kain but Raziel was my lil boy :( and now he's gone.

Ok maybe im overdoing it.....abit, but am i truely the only Raziel fan on this forum?

mortaniusgod
19th Feb 2004, 12:44
No, soulcat, but you must understand that Raziel already fulfilled his destiny. You cannot just put him in the next game because it is "cool" to play as Raziel. As every destiny has a beginning, also has an end. It would be cheap to come up with some sort of "arrangement" that allowed us to play with Raziel again.
Since the LOK serie has a GREAT story, you have to accept closures. And I sure hope people at CD sees it that way too.
Otherwise, it's going to be like those awful disney's sequels (the lion king 2, etc)

Caer
19th Feb 2004, 12:45
Of course not. I think most people here love Raziel. But the fact remains, the story is about Kain. Also, I actually like Kain the best in this series. At least elder Kain. The young version is a bit annoying =p
And I think Raziels end was good enough to justify his disappearance. That's my favourite scene in all the LoK's =D

Reaper007
19th Feb 2004, 12:49
SoulCat please use spolier tags when posting massive spoilers like that, thanks, and welcome to the forums.

Reaper007

VoRaDoR
19th Feb 2004, 13:56
Originally posted by mortaniusgod
No, soulcat, but you must understand that Raziel already fulfilled his destiny. You cannot just put him in the next game because it is "cool" to play as Raziel. As every destiny has a beginning, also has an end. It would be cheap to come up with some sort of "arrangement" that allowed us to play with Raziel again.
Since the LOK serie has a GREAT story, you have to accept closures. And I sure hope people at CD sees it that way too.
Otherwise, it's going to be like those awful disney's sequels (the lion king 2, etc)

I enjoyed playing with Raziel on SR1, SR2. However after I played Blood Omen 2 on my Xbox I have to say I like Kain more.

I agree with Mortaniusgod. Raziel fulfilled his destiny. I wouldn't find it interesting personally if Raziel was to be playable in the next Legacy of Kain game.

I really like the ending of Defiance.

Jeffers
19th Feb 2004, 14:18
I didn't like playing as Kain in BO2. I didn't particularly like BO2 but that's beside the point. But playing as kain in defiance I did enjoy.

Yes I do miss Raziel because I had always like the SR games a lot more the the BO games. But as long as the games continue down the same line as Defiance, then I will be more then happy.

Jeffers

HolyMoses
19th Feb 2004, 14:21
Raziel who?

allknowing
19th Feb 2004, 14:25
This whole series is called 'Legacy of Kain' for a reason

m4xim
19th Feb 2004, 15:20
I'll be missing Raziel for sure (:( ), but he was in that sword before he was even born. Classical paradox, he's carrying himself as a weapon. It was the matter of time that he will assume his predestined form again.
That does not change the fact that i will miss him dearly. Just imagine to "live" whole eternity as a Kain's blade... :/

Vampmaster
19th Feb 2004, 15:36
I prefer to think that he's a part of Kain now. He was a wraith then a physical blade then a wraith blade then absorbed by Kain to heal him. That or death is at least better than his eternal imprisonment.

HolyMoses
19th Feb 2004, 15:37
Originally posted by m4xim
Just imagine to "live" whole eternity as a Kain's blade... :/

At least we know he won't go hungry. :D

Camus Audron
20th Feb 2004, 00:45
is it just me? or did anyone else feel like when Kain says

"For you would not fear us, unless we could truly do you harm."

it was actually Raziel's voice? I did feel a slight change in the voice...but I cant be sure

Also, remember that Amy says that every feature they didnt use in the last installment, they'll implement in the next, and we know they wanted to have possesion/shapeshifting from a long time ago.....

maybe Kain will send Raziel out of the blade to posses enemies....as a reasonable way to bring him back

LOK kain is the greatest
20th Feb 2004, 01:33
originally posted by Holymoses

Raziel who?


:D you couldn't resist could you?:p


Yes i miss Raz but as they all say he has fulfilled his destiny. True I like Kain better but just think what damage they both could have done side by side.( hope to see Vamp Raz and kain fight humans pre empire ;) ) God the carnage. i mean i started a post on how i think Raz would get out of the blade. but i dought he will.

SoulCat
20th Feb 2004, 02:30
You guys have a point, but i dont think it would be "so bad" if later on in the series Raziel comes back, I mean he's as much part of the series now as Kain (even though its called The Legacy of Kain allknowing :rolleyes: ). Well I guess its all in Amy's hands now, but I do hope she doesn't 4get all the SR fans out there.

Oh and sorry about the spoiler thing :p ill get the hang of it eventualy.

Razielim Angel
20th Feb 2004, 05:11
*claps at SoulCat's initial post*

Sweetness, something I've been wanting to do myself for some time...

As far as LoK deaths are concerned, they're POINTLESS!!! It's like in DBZ, characters just have a habit of coming back. HOW many times have Mobius or Janos been "killed", only to come back somehow? Even Vorador did it.

Point is, Raziel should come back so that the Raziel fans can play him again instead of having to settle for just Kain...or worse, a new playable character.

Of course, it prolly won't happen, but it doesn't matter either way to me. After Defiance the LoK series really lost my intrest, so I prolly won't be picking up another title. I only played the games to play as Raziel anyways...

Lozza Mate
20th Feb 2004, 05:42
I like Raziel as much as the next fan. But it's the plot that I play these games for. And as such it would be terrible storytelling to bring him back just because he was a good character. Unless amy can come up with a REALLY good reason to bring him back, I wouldn't like it.

He was a great character, and he had a great end. lets not ruin it just because we miss him.

Trelela
20th Feb 2004, 11:35
I loved Raziel. And the ending words of Raziel were breathtaking for me.
He has gone with "honour" and at this time it was his own will to enter the blade.
I don't want to see him in the next game, because it would be caddish lingering. We must remember that Raz will still be there Well.. iside of a blade but still there
Now it's time for Kain.

m4xim
20th Feb 2004, 12:40
Maybe, just maybe...
As we all know Janos posessed by hylden escaped the citadel, so true creator of Soul Reaver still lives and only he really know what this blade was made for and he may also know how to free Raziel out of it. Maybe when Kain someday will restore balance to Nosgoth, banishing Hyldens once and for all Raziel could be freed, or at least his soul. Maybe the blade will shatter after playing it's role or something.

As always, the ending was made in a way that gives Amy sea of possibilities to continue in any way she wants. The best we can do now it's wait patiently for another story...

Everett
20th Feb 2004, 14:57
And as the Hylden Lord said "Know your place Raziel, the true hero plays his part, then steps aside"


Its just time Raziel to step aside and let Kain complete his legacy.

But he will be missed.

plot man
20th Feb 2004, 16:46
Raziel was one cool killing machine, but I always preferred Kain. His character was more ambiguous, it had more of a dark side and I liked that.

mortaniusgod
20th Feb 2004, 17:34
you people just don't get it, do you?
It is not about which character is cooler to play with, or how cool Raziel is, it is about THE STORY!!!
That is Raziel's fate and destiny! bare with it!

Trelela
20th Feb 2004, 17:36
The Story is the most important :D

Preacher
20th Feb 2004, 18:36
Just because Raziel's in the Reaver, that doesn't mean he isn't at peace. Ariel was certainly lucid and healed as she spoke to Raziel from the blade.

Speaking of which, I hope that's not what becomes of Raziel in the next game. I just hope they let him rest now.

Raziel as talking sword = cheesy and lame

moose562
20th Feb 2004, 19:05
Originally posted by mortaniusgod
It would be cheap to come up with some sort of "arrangement" that allowed us to play with Raziel again

well we got to fight turel...seeing him pop all the time felt pretty cheap to me...i mean so he got left out of the first one? i got over it...and then we got to fight sarafan turel, as i always complain turel hunger took over and thus he was in defiance

i wouldnt mind playing lieutenant!

solidsnake2099
21st Feb 2004, 04:54
I agree with SoulCat, Raziel shouldn't have gone within the soul reaver blade because didn't janos say to Raziel in voradors mansion that Raziel's was destined to wheeled the reaver as in use the blade as the weapon for only Raziel alone? If so than why did the blade tried to consume Raziel?

Also at the end of SR2, kain pulled the blade out of Raziel and said "now you are free to reclaim your true destiny Raziel" so isn't Raziel's true destiny is something else other than going into the soul reaver blade?

In my opinion Raziel should of find a way to defeat the elder god instead of letting kain do his dirty work. I understand that other people would say that Raziel's destiny was played out but still Raziel wanted to find a way of changing his destiny.

I will always like the character Raziel because the characters personality is more interesting and as for kain i hate the character so arogant of himself.

playing as Raziel is more cooler than kain. Lets compare, Raziel has the ability to shift in spectral and material realm, has the colourful soul reaver blade, can swim in water, glide, crawl on walls, etc. Now kain on the other hand for some reason now has the ability to crawl on walls, he could also do sucking blood, jump great distance, glide. I guess i proved my point that you can do alot more with playing as Raziel than Kain.

When I first played SR, i thought that this was a very cool game playing a deformed character that could shift in different worlds and pursue his creator kain was just amazing. As for SR2 that was even cooler because of the music was different but cool and there was more gameplay which made it fun and you got to know more about Raziel than in SR. But now that Raziel is in the blade, i just wish that CD would make the next LOK series about bringing back Raziel and playing as I agree with SoulCat, Raziel shouldn't have gone within the soul reaver blade because didn't janos say to Raziel in voradors mansion that Raziel's was destined to wheeled the reaver as in use the blade as the weapon for only Raziel alone? If so than why did the blade tried to consume Raziel?

Also at the end of SR2, kain pulled the blade out of Raziel and said "now you are free to reclaim your true destiny Raziel" so isn't Raziel's true destiny is something else other than going into the soul reaver blade?

In my opinion Raziel should of find a way to defeat the elder god instead of letting kain do his dirty work. I understand that other people would say that Raziel's destiny was played out but still Raziel wanted to find a way to find another way of changing his destiny.

I will always like the character Raziel and as for kain i hate the character so arogant of himself.

playing as Raziel is more cooler than kain. Lets compare, Raziel has the ability to shift in spectral and material realm, has the colourful soul reaver blade, can swim in water, glide, crawl on walls, etc. Now kain on the other hand for some reason now has the ability to crawl on walls, he could also do sucking blood, jump great distance, glide. I guess i proved my point that you can do alot more with playing as Raziel than Kain.

When I first played SR, i thought that this was a very cool game playing a deformed character that could shift in different worlds and pursue his creator kain was just amazing. As for SR2 that was even cooler because of the music and more gameplay and you got to know more about Raziel than in SR. But now that Raziel is in the blade, i just wish that CD would make the next LOK series of bringing back Raziel and playing as Raziel or else i would be very disappointed and so will other Raziel fans.

Omni_Sephiroth
21st Feb 2004, 05:02
I like Raziel just as much as Kain but he has played out his role :p and now he dies a Hero

SoulCat
21st Feb 2004, 14:31
GO Solidsnake and all the other Raz fans! It honestly Isn't about what player is better but the actual fact of the story, I only played BO to understand Raziel's story and if Raziel Isn't going to be in the future series then I guess I never play another LoK again.
Im sure I wont be the only one either.

I guess most of you are thinking "whats wrong with this girl just except the facts!" but I cant just let it be that way. It's a fact that if Kain was the one to die then all you Kain lovers would be outraged complaining and making a fuss like what im doing right now. I will let this argument go for now but dont think I've given up, im a solid fan of Raziel and wont quit till I see Raziel in a future game (and I dont mean this next one :rolleyes: ) let Kain have his little game to himself........................ for now, but my lil Raziel will be back.

MHUHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! ahem :D

mortaniusgod
21st Feb 2004, 15:57
SO, Soulcat, you're saying you don't give a crap about the LOK story, you only care about Raziel?

JJheadcharge
21st Feb 2004, 16:17
thats low, real low. if anything his sacrifice made him a better character. ill even go so far as to say he was a role model. now i started with the SR series myself, i havent even touched the BO series. i hated kain for the way hes been portrayed in the other games but after playing defiance i changed my mind. i would be pissed if kain died in defiance and not raziel. hell i WAS pissed when raziel "killed" him. i for one was glad he came back and finished business. raziel was a cool character, my favorite video game character to this day, but he played his role and died a hero. thats good enough for me, it should be good enough for you.

DJpick
21st Feb 2004, 18:33
Raziel isn't dead, he sacrificed himself so that Kain could fulfill his destiny. And all the things about Raziel weilding the Reaver were misinterpreted signs by janos. Raziel DID weild the Reaver. But it was inevitable that Raziel would be put in the blade. As long as the WB existed, no one doubted that this would happen. If you play a game just cause you like a character, then you are neglecting the story of the whole series. It's like saying you don't want to play it anymore cause Moebius died.

It's like saying you hate the Matrix cause Trinity dies. She was meant to die.

This is a part of the story. It was inevitable and destined to happen. SO whining and complaining won't change anything. And no one here can say they are abigger fan of Raziel than me. But his sacrifice was a bigger part of the story than anything Kain could do. It take s a big man to save the world, but it takes a bigger man to give his life in order to do it.

xarax
21st Feb 2004, 22:44
and since the series is over, I'm alright with Raziel out of the picture forever....sigh...

van_HellSing PL
21st Feb 2004, 22:59
The series is not over! CD is working on at least one more LoK game!

Erving JeansBgone
21st Feb 2004, 23:23
I`l start of by saying that Raz is my fav character and if the story says he should be imprisoned within the blade than tel him,let`s just hope he`s sacrifice was not useless.I`l miss the little blue dude...but something just tells me we have not seen the last of Raziel,trust me.And just couse he`s no more dosen`t mean that this is it for me,that i`m never gona play a Lok game again...it`s a great story and i`v got to know what`s gona come next,get over it,it`s just a game...a game that we all love,and the loss of a character should not affect this(all thing that have a start have an end,a perfect exemple of this would be me...in a year i will be an adult,and a teenager i will be no more and i`l miss it like i will miss Raz)

*Erving brakes out in tears*:p

DJpick
22nd Feb 2004, 00:14
why do you keep using accent diacritical marks instead of apostrophes?

sniperbr0
22nd Feb 2004, 00:27
RAZIEL IS COOL --> HE MAKES THE GAME COOL
WITHOUT RAZIEL IT WONT BE A LOK GAME --> IT WONT BE COOL
I PLAY BECAUSE RAZIEL IS COOL --> IF NO RAZIEL, I WONT PLAY THE GAME

m4xim
22nd Feb 2004, 00:34
Hehehe, it's really hard to believe some ppl played LOK just for a "cool blue guy" without niticing the story :D
But hey, they have right to do it, why should we care bout that :p

Nevertheless, i will miss Raziel... yes i know, i'm repeating myself :|

The Angel of Death
22nd Feb 2004, 00:45
Originally posted by sniperbr0
RAZIEL IS COOL --> HE MAKES THE GAME COOL
WITHOUT RAZIEL IT WONT BE A LOK GAME --> IT WONT BE COOL
I PLAY BECAUSE RAZIEL IS COOL --> IF NO RAZIEL, I WONT PLAY THE GAME

Kain is just as a big bart of kok & dont 4get kain is in bo1 & that come out b4 sr1 (the game is jast as good with out raziel & ur makin a BIG deal about this

m4xim
22nd Feb 2004, 00:55
Quit this l33t h4x0r impression, it's cheap :P

mortaniusgod
22nd Feb 2004, 01:46
*sigh* that is the problems with this n00bie generation that started the serie playing Soul Reaver.

DJpick
22nd Feb 2004, 01:47
I have a feeling that written language will eventually lose all purpose and fucntion completely.

DJpick
22nd Feb 2004, 04:31
*sigh* that is the problems with this n00bie generation that started the serie playing Soul Reaver
Yeah, I started that way. What's wrong with that?

mortaniusgod
22nd Feb 2004, 13:37
Originally posted by DJpick
*sigh* that is the problems with this n00bie generation that started the serie playing Soul Reaver
Yeah, I started that way. What's wrong with that?

:( :( Well, maybe you're different. But most people who started with Soul Reaver, don't care much for the story and usually ignore or totally disrespect the original story from Blood Omen 1. They only care about Raziel and what happened to him. They don't look at the big picture, the History of Nosgoth. They just want more and more Raziel, they want Soul Reaver 10 for all they care.

The Angel of Death
22nd Feb 2004, 13:48
i started playin with sr1 but i care about all the lok game startin with bo1 continuing through sr2 & finishin with lokd

DJpick
22nd Feb 2004, 19:13
Well, you should really think before you make comments like that because you never know who your audience is.

I don't think the SR1 n00bs disregard the story, they just see it differently, and I think that's kind of the point. Amy could have jumped right into BO2, but she didn't, she made a whole new character for us to enjoy. Some of us started with him, some of you started with Kain. I don't think we should label anyone Kainanites or Razielphytes, we're still all LoK fans no matter which character we like.

And in case you're curious, Raziel may be the character I started with, but he is NOT my favorite character by any means.

My favorite character is Irmok the Mad :)

Erving JeansBgone
22nd Feb 2004, 19:37
i to have started playing the Lok series since SR1 but that desen`t mean i playd the BO series just to know more about Raz or Kain...i playd those to know about the story(wich i love,the story rocks no doubt about it)...i like Kain as i like Raz i guess(raz`s sarcasm or kain`s evil voice make it all worth while)...and let`s not forget about the other characters in the series they all rock,the voices,the look,everything...just couse one person is no more it doseen`t mean the game sucks or is less cool,couse Raz is gone is just natural it`s a story it starts and it ends,it will not go on forever some ppl die some don`t(for the meantime)...and to those who won`t play any other games of the Lok series just couse Raz is gone,well what can i say u guys and gals just a`int Lok fans,you ppl are just Raz fans...The end

DJpick
22nd Feb 2004, 20:10
Here's a question for you BO1 fans/Kain fans...

What was the best part about BO1? When did it pick up? When you got the SR right, and just started chopping away and watching the blood go everywhere and listening to the wail of the Reaver right?

So if yoiu're such Kain fans, why was the best part when you got the sword inhabited by the character you don't like :)

DJpick
22nd Feb 2004, 20:13
I like Raziel just as much as Kain but he has played out his role
Although Omni is more like me in his emjoyment of the characters...

I'm sure most of you Kain fans would say "Raziel played out his role". So when Kain dies and plays out his role and a new character is born, I will remember this line from Omni whne all the Kain fans cry and complain :)

mortaniusgod
22nd Feb 2004, 21:31
Djpick, first, I do not have a favorite character, I love each character for their own reason.
Second, picking up the soul reaver was not my favorite part in BO1, now YOU are the one assuming too much. We are not kain lovers, it is just that we RESPECT the original story.
Well, You're right about labeling... I was wrong...
What I don't like, is when people ignore BO1, or make raziel the main character. They are all important, but you cannot keep bringing dead characters back to life just because you think they are cool.

Enihcam
22nd Feb 2004, 22:25
There are way too many assumptions in this thread. You can't view the fans of this series as 1 of 2 types of people, Raziel fans vs Kain fans. It also doesn't matter which game they started the series with; I played SR1 first but I happen to like Kain's character better. Either way it doesn't really matter because what I am a fan of is the Legacy of Kain as a series and the story it tells.

Trelela
22nd Feb 2004, 22:29
I like them both. For many reasons. I like Janos, Vorador, Moe, Umah either. I like all characters. I love whole story.

Raptor3k
23rd Feb 2004, 03:38
I will miss Raziel, but heres a good question to ponder, what exactly is it like inside of the reaver. Is it just dust and echos, or soemthing more....

DJpick
23rd Feb 2004, 04:59
it is just that we RESPECT the original story.
So then why are you playing SR1 and beyond? None of them are original, and have made minor alterations to the "original" story.

They are all important, but you cannot keep bringing dead characters back to life just because you think they are cool
Ummm, didn't Kain get brought back to life :)

I will admit, many people at NR will vouch for it, I am one of the biggest fans of Raziel. I like his story better than Kains. Not to say I DON'T like Kain, but I just like the mystery shrouding Raziel. But I understand that Raziel won't come back unless some extreme miracle happens. Which is fine by me. Cause if he WAS brought back, then it would just make Defiance a cheesy drama tactic to make us cry and jump out of our seats.

The only reason people hate Kain when they start with SR1 is because he was made out to be the total villain in it. If they had played BO1 first, SR1 would take a completely different meaning to them. I hated Kain in SR1. Not as a character, but as a "person". He tried to kill Raziel and failed. Then I played SR2 and saw a different side of Kain. Then I played BO1, and admittedly understood SO much more of the story :) But the first thing they see of Kain is the villain in SR1, so they will somewhat label him as a villain trying to manipulate Raziel, instead of the anti hero who has a plan from BO1.

what exactly is it like inside of the reaver. Is it just dust and echos, or soemthing more
I like to think of it like the Genie bottle from "I Dream of Jeanie"

mortaniusgod
23rd Feb 2004, 13:03
Originally posted by DJpick
it is just that we RESPECT the original story.
So then why are you playing SR1 and beyond? None of them are original, and have made minor alterations to the "original" story.
What does that got to do with anything? For all I know, The SR and defiance respect the original story. As far as I know, there's only 1 minor change (the purges). Believe me, I wouldn't be playing it otherwise.


Originally posted by DJpick
it is just that we RESPECT the original story.
They are all important, but you cannot keep bringing dead characters back to life just because you think they are cool
Ummm, didn't Kain get brought back to life :)

Now you're just being silly. that was at the beginning of BO1 :mad:

NeoDodge
23rd Feb 2004, 13:29
That was also at the end of defiance... Remind the part where he gets his heart (well, not exactly HIS, but...) torn out ? Just to be sure you remembered... :p

Zephon
23rd Feb 2004, 15:38
bring raz back!

he did so much in defiance it would be a shame 2 lose all the powers & abilities u played so hard for

AndaPanda
23rd Feb 2004, 22:45
Originally posted by Zephon
bring raz back!

he did so much in defiance it would be a shame 2 lose all the powers & abilities u played so hard for

Maybe Kain will have them all now that Raz's soul is in the blade, together with all his brother's souls :) I hope we'll see that in the next game :)

JJheadcharge
24th Feb 2004, 02:35
i started with SR1. i love raziel to death. but like everyone has said, he is not the main character, he has played out his role and died a respectable hero. if kain dies, in the next game, oh well to that. in the matrix, both trinity and neo died. same difference.. every hero has their course to follow, good or bad. as long as he ends up being respectable and admirable like raziel was, ill be peachy keen. but like i said, i started with SR1, and raziel is my favorite character, and i havent even touched the BO series. but that doesnt mean i dont like kain. if i had to rate the 2, raziel would get a 10 and kain would get a 9. very close. but i did research, i showed initiative. as soon as i can, im gonna buy both BO games because i care enough about the story, and i think its safe to go so far as to say its an obligation to at least attempt to complete all the games in the series to really truly call yourself a LOK fan. i mean thats like reading half the LOTR books and expect to really know and respect whats going on. it just doesnt work that way.

DJpick
24th Feb 2004, 04:13
What does that got to do with anything? For all I know, The SR and defiance respect the original story
Ok, so then why are you complaining about people who start with SR1 if it respects the original story then?

Now you're just being silly.
Annoying isn't it :)

Thanks for the assist Neo :)

Anda...
If anything it was the cleansing from the Spirit Reaver that would give Kain those abilities, not the soul in the Reaver.

AndaPanda
24th Feb 2004, 05:30
DjPick, I think you got my point :p What I was trying to say is that if Kain can benefit fromRaziel's soul, together with the ones of the past Guardians that are now in the Reaver - since it purifies him and his sight - maybe it would be nice to see Kain benefit from all the other souls (the vampire lieutenants') that have entered the Reaver too because Raz absorbed them in SR1. Maybe Kain's whole soul could be restored, now that the portions he had given to his "sons" are in the Blade... I don't know, I just think it'd be really cool if we didn't lose all the great abilities Raz had gained after killing his brethren. I'd sure like to see them (or at least some) used by THE KAIN in the next game :D

DJpick
24th Feb 2004, 08:18
See that's the thing. I'm not one of those who believes that the 6 carried part of Kains soul with them. I am one of the people who believes that once the soul returned to the body, Kains portion just dissipated since it was no longer needed as it had served it's purpose.

mortaniusgod
24th Feb 2004, 12:00
Originally posted by DJpick
What does that got to do with anything? For all I know, The SR and defiance respect the original story
Ok, so then why are you complaining about people who start with SR1 if it respects the original story then?

That they focus only about events concerning Soul Reaver. They don't look at the big picture.

zero01
24th Feb 2004, 17:41
look guy, isn't this a little immature? raziel was a great character, original at that. fun dynamics, shady history, very bold, all the makings of a good character, but like what everyone else said,,,
raziel had a destiny, we may yet see more of his influence, but i dought that we will be able to play as him agin.

so wipe those tears away and reminese on the good times

DJpick
24th Feb 2004, 18:03
Who are you talking to Zero?

mortaniusgod
24th Feb 2004, 18:15
Gosh, Djpick, don't take every commentary so personally. He is talking to everyone who wants raziel back. And I agree with him.

DJpick
24th Feb 2004, 19:57
I didn't take it personally, I was just asking who he was talking to. A simple question really.

And I am not one of those people who wants Raziel back. Actually I would enjoy it, but it isn't going to happen so it doesn't matter what I want.

FCujunga
24th Feb 2004, 20:19
No, I really don't care if Raziel is gone. Ever since the end of Soul Reaver (1), he has been kind of a tool.

AndaPanda
24th Feb 2004, 20:55
Originally posted by DJpick
See that's the thing. I'm not one of those who believes that the 6 carried part of Kains soul with them. I am one of the people who believes that once the soul returned to the body, Kains portion just dissipated since it was no longer needed as it had served it's purpose.

I see what you mean. And you're probably right. I was just saying I'd like to see some of the abilities Raz gained in SR1 used by Kain in the next game. And the soul parts story was just an idea of how we could get these abilities. Maybe we won't get any.. I was just hoping :)

Apocrypha Roxy
25th Feb 2004, 00:48
I care. I care a whole bunch. I love my Raziel. He's a compelling character and a loveable personality. And he's just as important at Kain. I see them as being at the same level of importance.

However.

He is gone for now. He's hanging out in the Reaver now. And he's content with that, because he exerted his free will and entered the blade at his whim. Let him rest. He'll be alright. He's not totally out of the picture. Raziel is a critical piece of the story. He's just taken.. a sabbatical. He's away for a while. We may see him again in another incarnation or something. Amy will do right by us.

Clarification on one part:
When Kain said "Now you are free to reclaim your true destiny!", it doesn't mean you should take his words as gospel. In part, what he said was true; Raziel was freed from a 'false' destiny: being imprisoned prematurely. But that didn't mean he wasn't supposed to enter the blade at all. He still had to complete his destiny. That just wasn't the time. And I don't think Kain knew that (at least not that deeply). In Kain's eyes, he needed to save Raziel so they could work together in saving Nosgoth. He didn't want to lose Raziel. He cared for him. Raz was his son. You could even say he loved him.
In the end, Raziel entered the blade - of his own free will, enlightened to the grand scheme of things and finally understanding what had to be done. Even though Kain didn't want him to make the sacrifice. And THAT, my friends, was Raziel reclaiming his true destiny.

Lastly. This "I will never play another LoK game because Raz is dead!" or other such nonsense is not only impolite, it's disrespectful. You DO realize that CD reads these forums. They take in what we say, and incorporate it into the games. They care. :( Let Amy take the story in the direction she wants it to go, not to appease what some of us disagree with. It's HER story. SHE does the writing.

Besides, Raziel IS going to be back, in some way, in some game. I guarantee it. Or I'll eat my hat. :D

Mac Daddy
25th Feb 2004, 00:52
I've noticed that people keep refering back to the line "now you are free to reclaim your true destiny" from the end of sr2. Did anyone even listen to the rest of that and the other games? How about this one "you have seen the signs, but misread their meaning" Mobeus didn't realize just how right he was. Everyone had.

Oh and anotherthing, yes, raziel was my favorite character, but I DON'T WANT HIM BACK IN THE SERIES EVEN AS A CAMEO APPEARANCE. now i know some will consider that as shouting but I just wanted it to stand out a little more clearly for people who skim and don't really think about posts before responding.(you know who you are). Its not because he's played out this destiny of his but because it would not make sense (oops, they pulled a vorador). Think of his destiny litterally as that figure 8 symbol for infinity. human>vampire>wraith>sword>? my concern is how will his soul return to its human body for the whole thing to start over again. There are still things that need some clearing up on more than one situation so hopefully raziel is gone but not forgotten .

Apocrypha Roxy
25th Feb 2004, 00:52
OH! And before I forget...


I started the series with Soul Reaver 2. Then I got my hands on and played the other games. To this day, I love SR2 and BO1 and hold them in the highest regard in the series.

And. I like both Kain and Raz. Love 'em. ;)

Raptor3k
25th Feb 2004, 00:53
Well, I personaly am trying to make a SP mod for JA to look at the issue of what would it be like from Raziels POV inside the reaver. I however have no dought that it will conflict with the real story...

SoulCat
26th Feb 2004, 08:01
Ok you guys sooo didnt read my posts!
I *NEVER* said I was only playing the game because of "character Raziel", but because of his story. Yes I started off with SR1 and am glad I did but just because I like Raziel and he's my fav does not mean I hate Kain.

I admit it was wrong to say I'll never play another game again if Raz isn't in it because that wouldn't make me a fan of the game at all.... I was just so devostated and angry that the character Iv'e grown to love died and no one even cared. (not 4getting the fact that its just a game :rolleyes:)
But to all those who say they hate Raziel aren't fans themselves because whether you like it or you dont, Raziel was a huge part of the game (more so than Kain at one stage) so all you anti-Raz people should think about that.

I just have to add one more thing for you to think about. For all those who have played the "The legend of zelda" series tell me, the name of the game is ZELDA but who's the story about and who is the actual character you play with........?

Darkmaster
26th Feb 2004, 20:14
The first LOK game I played was SR1 and I loved Raziel because I saw myself in him,a dark character closed off, more or less, with his great quotes and dry humor comments.Seeing him absorbed into the Reaver left me sad and quite angry,but his final words made me accept and admire him even more,he knew what he had to do and didn't hesitate,he accepted his fate and went down as a true warrior and a hero."And I am not your enemy,not your destoyer.I am, as before, your right hand, your sword".Raziel's final appearence was the best it could ever be.


Hail Raziel, greatest of vampires, bravest of warriors.

DJpick
26th Feb 2004, 20:26
I personally think Raziel's story is an awesome one, even more so than the arrogant noble turned Vampire Kain's. The Reaver history is interesting. To find out the SR had originally been a human/vampire/wraith. But I think we could still see Raziel's story, only now it would be as the SR and not the Wraith, since he appears to still have been a big influence on time ie WTJ.

Stormrider
27th Feb 2004, 23:29
Originally posted by Darkmaster
The first LOK game I played was SR1 and I loved Raziel [...]with his great quotes and dry humor comments.


Then you would have loved Kain in the original Blood Omen! Now *there* was some dry humour and sarcastic comments!

By the way, I like the idea on the first page of this thread, about Kain sending Raziel to possess enemies.

As for the Raziel lovers/haters: Yes, I started with BO too, and I was kinda disappointed not to be able to play with Kain (no crude jokes) in Soul Reaver - but that doesn't mean I don't like Raziel. Raziel died for the story, fellas, and that's the most important thing. I have to admit I favour Kain slightly (he was the 'original' LOK character) and I was kinda afraid when
Raziel pulled the Heart of Darness out of Kains chest
...but if that was the way it was meant to be, then so be it. As it is now, Kain 'lives' and Raziel 'dies', but you've got to admit the creators did a fine job at making those characters.

In fact, the fact that so many people think it's a shame that Raziel 'died' should be seen as a compliment for the creators: they made characters that people loved and that people are sad to see go. That's no small task.

Even the Kainite/Razielite 'controversy' is a compliment to the creators: it shows that people care obaut their characters.

sniperbr0
28th Feb 2004, 17:44
I also started with SR1 and hated Kain but didnt like Raziel, also didnt like the game so much, the main discussion was vengeance, kill him, not save nosgoth, save the world... and etc. and I LOVED the series when played SR2, and I didnt see Kain as an enemy anymore, I wished much to play as him and Raziel, but in Defiance, the new Kain wasnt the same as the SR Kain, he was different, closed, arrogant about everything, there werent conlusions anymore, just Kain seeking Raziel, but why? it was my first impression playing defiance, what was Kain supposed to do with Raziel? Thinking in the end of SR2, I thought he was seeking him to kiss him or to go to a love hotel, because of Kain seeing the murals about the vampires, the adversary, or something else wont even do something with Raziel in the ending of SR2, they could sit down, talk, drink a whiskey, eat a pizza, as Raziel stops seeking Kain, so anyone havent something to do with the other, thats why Raziel remains the favorite character of the Lok games, he is the only who has questions and desire answers, who has something to do, he must know his destiny, but Kain didnt care about anyone in the other games, but in SR2 he wants to help Raziel, so he becomes a interesting character for lok fans who started in SR1... in SR1 Raziel had a story and Kain was the villain, in SR2 Raziel had a story with Kain, who told Raziel about Nosgoth, and in Defiance Kain does something that nobody knows the reason, just a prelude to the ending and Raziel was the only who moves in story, so, who was the enjoyable character, Raziel or Kain??? If you people think about a story and do not think about a game, its just the beginning and the ending, but the story isnt over yet... I wish a good story for lok6, good ending, but most of all a good game...