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It's an obssession
16th Feb 2004, 21:09
I read a thread earlier on but I got lost, so answer me this -

Would it be safe to say that

Raziel is both Ancient and Hylden ( Redeemer and Destroyer ) and that what he becomes depends upon how he uses his Free Will?

Dogfight
16th Feb 2004, 22:02
In response to your statement.

According to Amy and the staff the dead Raziel is both of the figures in the murals, and Kain is neither. Thus Raziel is both an Ancient and a Hylden.

The problem is that Amy and the staff didn't go into details on how Raziel is both.

Some have the view that the ghoul Raziel is some type of free range wraith, meaning that he is neither really a Vampire or a Hylden, but is merely a representation of both of these figures.

A few have the view that the dead Raziel is somehow a hybrid, both an Ancient and a Hylden.

My deduction is that the dead resurrected Raziel is a Hylden spirit similar to how they where before their banishment and only his future self the wraith blade is Vampiric. Every character in Defiance says that Raziel's spirit is a Hylden, although a few would ignore the character's words, it still fits perfectly with what the staff of Crystal Dynamics said. What is more it explains why Moebius' staff didn't work on Raziel, and why the Vampiric wraith blade tries to absorb the dead Raziel. Lastly it is the simplest most reasonable explanation and even the Elder says that the dead Raziel was always a Hylden in Defiance.

See this link for a thread that discusses the three different views.

http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?threadid=33434

Raz
16th Feb 2004, 23:56
Raziel's not an Ancient or a Hylden spirit.

Raziel's not actually depicted in the murals. Instead, his dual nature is what is depicted in the murals. The figures in the murals represent Raziel's actions which aid both the Ancients and the Hylden.

Not a single character in Defiance states that Raziel is a Hylden. A few know that he is aiding the Hylden, despite the fact that Raziel is unaware of it himself. This is why they dislike him. They know of Raziel's nature although he is not aware of it himself.


Originally posted by Dogfight
although a few would ignore the character's words

Gee, I wonder who you could be referring to... :rolleyes:

However, I don't think I'm the one misinterpreting the evidence... :rolleyes:

Dogfight
17th Feb 2004, 00:16
Just to clarify.


Not a single character in Defiance states that Raziel is a Hylden. A few know that he is aiding the Hylden, despite the fact that Raziel is unaware of it himself. This is why they dislike him. They know of Raziel's nature although he is not aware of it himself.

Moebius indicates that the dead Raziel is a Hylden, he doesn't say it outright but he does indicate it to Kain.


Moebius: "Your delusion of fulfilling the Vampires' foolish prophecies have badly distorted your judgment. And Raziel is not what you think."

Ariel calls the ghoul Raziel the name the "Unspoken" this is because her ancestors decreed to not speak the name of the Hylden. The Unspoken is another name for the Hylden.


Raziel: "My kind? What exactly do you think I am?"

Ariel: "Your name shall remain 'Unspoken', as decreed by our ancestors. You serve the one who so brutally took my life and set this tragedy in motion. But even now, hope is at work, Balance will be restored, and your kind will be expelled forever."


“You must trust me, Raziel. Our intentions, for Nosgoth, for our futures, are not so diverse.” - Kain

[QUOTE]Raziel: "Then you know what I am, and who you are?"

Kain: "I believe I do."

Raziel: "And still you think you can move me about like your pawn. Think again, Kain."

(Raziel swings his blade, Kain ducks beneath his wide arc.)

Kain: "Take heed, Raziel."

Raziel: "Why? If we are who we are, then are we not destined to fight to the death, to decide the fate of Nosgoth?"

Kain: "Don't be a fool! I will not fight you."


Raziel: “I’m not who you think I am. Nor is this a benevolent act. I have questions that apparently you alone can answer.”

Janos Audron: “Raziel, there are forces in this world that will strive to deceive you and pervert your destiny. But you must believe, your arrival foretells the salvation of the Vampire race.”

Raziel: “Why then would the Vampires devise a weapon to consume and imprison their savior?”

Janos Audron: “No... that cannot be...”

Raziel: "While the blade yet exists, I am drawn inexorably toward my doom. It was you who bound me to this fate. Only you can release me.”

Janos Audron: “Raziel, you have been misled. You are ordained by prophecy to wield the Reaver.”

(Raziel calls forth the Wraith Blade, holding it before Janos, who recoils in alarm.)

Raziel: “And so I do. Though not quite as though you’d envisioned.”

Janos Audron: “Redeemer and Destroyer... is it possible? Did I misread all the signs? It seems your destiny is more labyrinthian than I had imagined. You must trust me, Raziel.”

Kain even regards the dead Raziel as a Hylden and Janos himself says that he made a mistake of seeing Raziel's ghost as an Ancient.

Raziel's spirit himself says that he is a Hylden and that he was always been the Hylden champion and never the Ancient's hero. The Elder confirms Raziel's words.

I can understand some not believing every characters view in Defiance, that Raziel's ghost is a Hylden, but they shouldn't dismiss the words of the characters entirely by saying that they don't view Raziel's ghost as a Hylden when they all clearly do, even if they don't always outright state: "Raziel is a Hylden." There are other ways after all to say the same thing.

Raz
17th Feb 2004, 00:21
I'm not going to wreck this guy's thread debating with you Dogfight. We've started this somewhere else, so let's leave it there...

It's an obssession:

I suggest that you at least try to wade through the posts in the other thread. It may be confusing, but there's simply too much to try to sum up here, and, when one tries, another simply tries to draw out the debate... *cough*

Try to read through the "evidence" presented and come to your own conclusion. ;)

LOK kain is the greatest
17th Feb 2004, 00:49
Okay guys, i have waded through both threds and i agree with Raz on this. Sorry dogfight but i just can't come to the same conclutions you have.


You say Raz is a hylden.

Well i still think he is what he was before. not a spirit of a hylden. just because he is their champion as they see it, it don't make him a Hylden.

Raz mistakes the Muriuls when he sees them. he thinks Him and Kain have to fight. The voice overs are the charaters interpritations at the time. He thinks Kain is the Vampire champion when he is in fact the scion of balance. Mobius tells raz this....

Mobius: Don't you see?.it didn't matter which one either of you thought you were, aslong as the outcome was the same.

Well thats what i think, and i am now going to run away befor i get slautered:D

Dogfight
17th Feb 2004, 01:08
Sorry dogfight but i just can't come to the same conclutions you have.

No need for that LOK kain is the greatest, at this point any of the three views is as valid as the next, I'm just arguing the validity of my view. This is of course until we get a direct statement on this issue which will finally settle it. This is a hint for you blincoln.

blincoln
17th Feb 2004, 01:56
Are you so eager to have all the secrets spoiled right now?

If they gave you all of the answers, there wouldn't be much for the next game to cover =P.

Apocrypha Roxy
17th Feb 2004, 02:05
He is neither.

He's not the Ancient's hero, nor the Hylden's hero. He's the being of Free Will, the one unbound creature who is the key to victory for either side. If he can be swayed to the Vampire's cause, they'll win. If he can be swayed to the Hylden's cause, they'll win.

The same goes for what others tell him. The Elder and Moebius egging him on about how he was the Hylden's champion all along is a ploy to kill Kain, destroy the Binding and fulfill the Squid's agenda, which is to fill his never-ending belly with plenty of souls. Kain having Raziel persue him through time to discover the Vampires' history and the true significance of the Pillars and he himself believing that Raziel was the Vampire Savior fulfills his agenda, which is to restore Nosgoth to Vampiric rule and end the corruption that plagues and leeches the land.

But that doesn't mean they're right.

The twin murals lead the characters - and us - into believing that Raziel and Kain are depicted there as Hylden/Vampire and vice versa, then into believing that Raziel is both Hylden and Vampire, but neither is true.
The murals show Raziel's dual nature; as Amy stated. He redeems himself (as the battle's victor in the murals) yet he also destroys himself (as the vanquished foe in the murals). He redeems himself (by healing Kain and willingly sacrifices himself fpr the good of Nosgoth), yet he also destroys himself (he sacrifices himself to the Reaver where he will go mad from imprisonment, likely never to be seen again).

As for other characters mistaking his identity, they're wrong too. He's not the Unspoken. He's not Hylden. They think he is, but then again they've never seen the Unspoken in its true form (Le Hash). He looks demonic enough, so blame him, right?

Raziel is the key to healing or damning Nosgoth. It all depends on who sways him. But in the end, the Being of Free Will makes the right choice. His choice, finally, made by clarity and understanding.


Hope that wasn't too confusing for you, Obsession. ;)

Dogfight
17th Feb 2004, 02:06
Are you so eager to have all the secrets spoiled right now? If they gave you all of the answers, there wouldn't be much for the next game to cover =P.

No, I don't want to know all the secrets right now, nor in any way get spoiled for the next game. Perhaps the answer to the question can be given without spoiling anything for the next game, if not then I can wait.

Lozza Mate
17th Feb 2004, 04:59
Originally posted by Apocrypha Roxy
He is neither.

He's not the Ancient's hero, nor the Hylden's hero. He's the being of Free Will, the one unbound creature who is the key to victory for either side. If he can be swayed to the Vampire's cause, they'll win. If he can be swayed to the Hylden's cause, they'll win.

The same goes for what others tell him. The Elder and Moebius egging him on about how he was the Hylden's champion all along is a ploy to kill Kain, destroy the Binding and fulfill the Squid's agenda, which is to fill his never-ending belly with plenty of souls. Kain having Raziel persue him through time to discover the Vampires' history and the true significance of the Pillars and he himself believing that Raziel was the Vampire Savior fulfills his agenda, which is to restore Nosgoth to Vampiric rule and end the corruption that plagues and leeches the land.

But that doesn't mean they're right.

The twin murals lead the characters - and us - into believing that Raziel and Kain are depicted there as Hylden/Vampire and vice versa, then into believing that Raziel is both Hylden and Vampire, but neither is true.
The murals show Raziel's dual nature; as Amy stated. He redeems himself (as the battle's victor in the murals) yet he also destroys himself (as the vanquished foe in the murals). He redeems himself (by healing Kain and willingly sacrifices himself fpr the good of Nosgoth), yet he also destroys himself (he sacrifices himself to the Reaver where he will go mad from imprisonment, likely never to be seen again).

As for other characters mistaking his identity, they're wrong too. He's not the Unspoken. He's not Hylden. They think he is, but then again they've never seen the Unspoken in its true form (Le Hash). He looks demonic enough, so blame him, right?

Raziel is the key to healing or damning Nosgoth. It all depends on who sways him. But in the end, the Being of Free Will makes the right choice. His choice, finally, made by clarity and understanding.


Hope that wasn't too confusing for you, Obsession. ;)

very well put.

I don't believe Raziel is literaly a Hylden or Ancient and I don't believe the dialogue ever implies it. The logistical issues alone are terrible.

Raziel is not a hylden or Ancient. He's just in a position to help out either race, thus becoming their saviour.

Raz
17th Feb 2004, 12:43
Beautifully put, Apocrypha Roxy! ;)

Dogfight
17th Feb 2004, 16:10
In response to Apocrypha Roxy's post.

The problem with Apocrypha Roxy's argument is that it states Raziel as being a free range wraith, meaning that he is neither an Ancient nor Hylden, but this then would be a contradiction of several key points. One of which is that Amy and the staff said that he is both of the figures, they didn't specify that the figures were but representations of Raziel, but rather just said that he is both. What is more it would mean that Raziel's ghost isn't a Hylden, but his other future self the wraith blade is still clearly Vampiric, thus making Raziel in a way only one of the figures, the Ancient one, not at all the Hylden. Therefore only half of the prophecy would be true, the other half would only be symbolic of a role. While some would still be inclined to go with this view, it would make the whole prophecy somewhat pointless. Including Raziel's speech to Kain at the end.

Sure you shouldn't trust everything the characters say in the series, but you also shouldn't distrust everything they say either, it is a fine line to walk. According to what the characters say in Defiance, Raziel's spirit is a Hylden, and his wraith blade is Vampiric, there you have the Reedemer and Destroyer motif. Now, no one needs believe what the characters say, but this is what they say. They don't say that Raziel's ghost is a free range wraith, they all say that he is a Hylden with free will. A quality which has been until now exclusive to Raziel's ghost, perhaps to begin with because he was a Hylden all along.

[SPOILER]The banished race foretold a hero who would deliver them from their oppressors, and destroy the shackles of the Vampires' tyrannous God. The same hero that bore the flaming sword.

Apocrypha Roxy
17th Feb 2004, 17:10
Originally posted by Dogfight
In response to Apocrypha Roxy's post.

The problem with Apocrypha Roxy's argument is that it states Raziel as being a free range wraith, meaning that he is neither an Ancient nor Hylden, but this then would be a contradiction of several key points. One of which is that Amy and the staff said that he is both of the figures, they didn't specify that the figures were but representations of Raziel, but rather just said that he is both. What is more it would mean that Raziel's ghost isn't a Hylden, but his other future self the wraith blade is still clearly Vampiric, thus making Raziel in a way only one of the figures, the Ancient one, not at all the Hylden. Therefore only half of the prophecy would be true, the other half would only be symbolic of a role. While some would still be inclined to go with this view, it would make the whole prophecy somewhat pointless. Including Raziel's speech to Kain at the end.

Sure you shouldn't trust everything the characters say in the series, but you also shouldn't distrust everything they say either, it is a fine line to walk. According to what the characters say in Defiance, Raziel's spirit is a Hylden, and his wraith blade is Vampiric, there you have the Reedemer and Destroyer motif. Now, no one needs believe what the characters say, but this is what they say. They don't say that Raziel's ghost is a free range wraith, they all say that he is a Hylden with free will. A quality which has been until now exclusive to Raziel's ghost, perhaps to begin with because he was a Hylden all along.

[SPOILER]The banished race foretold a hero who would deliver them from their oppressors, and destroy the shackles of the Vampires' tyrannous God. The same hero that bore the flaming sword.


Couldn't that hero with the flaming eyes and the fiery sword be interpreted as the Hylden Lord who struck down a younger Kain? And the opposite mural interpreted as Kain striking down the Hylden Lord when the gate was destroyed?

Just because Raziel has glowing eyes and a sword of flame, doesn't mean you need to take it literally. He did, and look where he ended up.

They never say he's a Hylden with free will. They say he's a Hylden. Kain says he has free will. But he doesn't call him Hylden.

Some things said by the characters need to be taken with a grain of salt; other things must be taken at face value. The problem is, which statements? ;)


Amy (since you're likely to read this), please help to clarify, even if only a little bit. We don't want all the answers, we just want a conclusion to this debate. :)

Raz
17th Feb 2004, 17:55
Okay, I'm in the process of getting an official response to this debate... :p


Originally posted by Dogfight
One of which is that Amy and the staff said that he is both of the figures, they didn't specify that the figures were but representations of Raziel, but rather just said that he is both.

They meant that Raziel's represented by both of the figures in the murals. They don't mean that he is depicted as either figure specifically. They mean that his actions have been personified through the murals... He has a dual nature, or dual "purpose" if you will. :rolleyes:

The different "players" in Nosgoth, such as Ariel, Mortanius and Moebius, each view Raziel differently due to the fact that he has the potential to be either of the figures in the murals. There are forces who know this and try to manipulate Raziel into doing things for their benefit.

The Ancients created the murals and as they know that someone, not going into specifics, will release the Hylden from the Demon Dimension they see that being as the Hylden's saviour, regardless of whether or not they have knowingly aided the Hylden. They also know that someone will aid the Scion of Balance, and so they depict them as the Ancient's saviour.

It's never said that Raziel is a Hylden, or an Ancient...

[Raz lowers the needle to play the broken record which has been collecting dust...]

Dogfight
17th Feb 2004, 20:21
You could be right Raz about how the murals are only representations. I'm simply keeping an open mind to the three different views for now and showing the validity of my view.

warpsavant
17th Feb 2004, 23:57
Didn't Ben like already tell us 'they' said that he was both?

Vampmaster
18th Feb 2004, 16:45
He is the champion of both. That doesn't necessarilly mean he's a member of both races (although they would want to depict him according to the cause he chooses).

Champion:

1. Person or thing that defeats all others on competition.
2. Person who fights or speaks in support of another or of a cause.


To be honest I am starting to beleive the theory that the vampires and the hylden could have once been the same race. If someone can get me a screenshot of the 3rd mural of the vampire heros near Voradors fountain, you'll be able to see that the hylden did infact have wings AND they were much like Raziels AND Raziel and his clan had begun to devolve. So maybe the ancient vampires had infact evolved from the hylden. So perhaps that was what Raziels clan were becoming.

mortaniusgod
18th Feb 2004, 16:56
Congratulations Dogfight - you turned yet another innocent post (even with a "No confusing explanations!" title) into a very confusing and large-explanations thread.

plot man
18th Feb 2004, 18:31
gotta say, I only just read this today, but I have to go along with Apocrypha. That explanation makes total sense.

Raziel could be either figure in the murals and is neither champion until he decides which he will be. In defiance, he finally makes that choice. In response to something dogfight says; the wraith blade is not clearly vampiric at all! It is a soul-devouring blade that will devour the souls of anything it kills, including vampires. How is that vampiric?

Apocrypha Roxy
18th Feb 2004, 23:41
Originally posted by plot man
gotta say, I only just read this today, but I have to go along with Apocrypha. That explanation makes total sense.

Raziel could be either figure in the murals and is neither champion until he decides which he will be. In defiance, he finally makes that choice. In response to something dogfight says; the wraith blade is not clearly vampiric at all! It is a soul-devouring blade that will devour the souls of anything it kills, including vampires. How is that vampiric?


Thank you. :)


However. The WB is vampiric in nature (it is Raziel's twin soul. Raziel is still a vampire in nature - the same personality, the same body, the same teeth, just a different hunger). When Moebius' staff disables it in the beginning and end of SR2, the staff disables their vampire enemies. It disables Raziel (hence the bare hands threat) from using his weapon (the wraith blade).
So yeah, Dogfight is correct in this regard. The wraith blade - and in turn Raziel - is clearly vampiric.

WraithStar
19th Feb 2004, 03:47
When I was playing through the game, I got the impression that the murals were just uncertain predictions of the future. They depicted the possibilities- the different choices Raziel could make. However, because Raziel had free will, it was his choice which prophecy to fulfill (or both). I don't think that when the prophecies were made, anyone knew about Raziel. Janos just assumed that Raziel was the figure in the murals. And when he rethinks his views, he isn't saying Raziel is a Hylden, he is merely realizing that Raziel has a dual nature due to his free will. As far as Moebius' staff not affecting Raziel, it didn't affect Kain either once Kain didn't have the Heart of Darkness. I suspect Moebius' staff simply does not work on necromantic vampires. I think that Raziel was never an Ancient and he was never a Hylden. He was, in my opinion, a true free agent. As such, everyone distrusted him, tried to manipulate him, and in general couldn't figure him out. That's what I got directly out of playing the game.

I posted this at the end of the other debate thread, but I wanted to repeat it here. Now, the Wraith Blade was inside of the Reaver for some time before it was freed. I think the most likely explanation for the WB being affected by Moebius' staff is this: the version of Raziel's wraithen soul that was in the Reaver was transformed by the magic that Janos and the other Ancients laid on the blade. That is why it was affected by Moebius' staff. It doesn't necessarily imply that Raziel has to be an Ancient or a Hylden.

It's an obssession
26th Feb 2004, 21:37
Oh. Uh.........I thought that Raziel was both the Hylden champion and Ancient champion but it was his Free Will that made him decide. Remember when he was talking to Vorador and asked him why the ancients would make a a weapon to imprison their Savior? Then Vorador said something like: " I see you've chosen your path." Does anyone see my point?
Oh and, Raz thaks for your consideration, but I'm not a guy!
:D Big thanks to everyone! So, uh, does anyone know what I'm talking about? I've confused myself by writing my "little" idea...:confused:

Raz
26th Feb 2004, 23:48
Sorry... I didn't mean "guy" in the literal sense, merely in the "this person" sense! :p

It's an obssession
27th Feb 2004, 20:38
Lol, OK. :D You see what I'm getting at, right? :)

Raz
27th Feb 2004, 21:38
Well, sorta... I think! :p

WraithStar
28th Feb 2004, 17:47
Originally posted by It's an obssession
Oh. Uh.........I thought that Raziel was both the Hylden champion and Ancient champion but it was his Free Will that made him decide.

I agree that he is the champion of both races and has the free will to choose his own path. He doesn't have to be an Ancient or a Hylden to be their champions, though, right? That's what I meant in my other post.

It's an obssession
28th Feb 2004, 17:48
"Sorta" is better than what I can say! I kinda went brain-dead last night! ;) Is there any way I could be the least bit right? :D
Wraithstar- I agree. That's what I meant in the first place, I just messed it up a bit! :D

WraithStar
28th Feb 2004, 18:02
Okay then. Now that I understand what you were asking, it seems I agree:) And it's alright, I have my share of confusion too;)

It's an obssession
28th Feb 2004, 18:19
AH! So I'm not alone, then! Y'know, I thought I knew alot about this game when I told my LoK-hating friends about it, but compared to you all I know next to nothing! How ironic... ;)
There's no way that Raziel can be a Hylden. It's just the fact that he "could" be their Champion - not of their race. I think they realize that he's strong and has Free Will, and decide to use him.

WraithStar
28th Feb 2004, 18:23
Originally posted by It's an obssession
I think they realize that he's strong and has Free Will, and decide to use him.

Doesn't everyone?:(

It's an obssession
28th Feb 2004, 18:45
Yeah, I just thought I'd state the obvious.