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Hillwar
16th Feb 2004, 17:57
I guess thet the creater of the game is making censorship in the forum chat, well thats one way to control bad PR.

But still it don't remove the fact that this product wasn't thoroughly testet in the PC version before putting it out to the users....

No "SLAM" posting.... just my opinion of the game...

van_HellSing PL
16th Feb 2004, 18:07
Yeah, tell that to the lead tester, he's a moderator here :D.

I assure you that the camera isn't that bad. And I'm NOT a fanboy who takes every aspect of the game for something ingenious. I do have complaints about Defiance, also about the camera (my biggest complaint though is the repetitiveness od the reaver shrines).

DarkWraith
16th Feb 2004, 18:28
I didn't experience any problems with the camera angles. Sure you miss a few jumps but I did that with the old camera too. I agree with Van on the whole shrine thing though. You would have thought that the ancients would have made each shrine indervidual to its element. I kjnow there are things like water in the water shrine but still....

DW

Lär
16th Feb 2004, 18:33
Originally posted by Hillwar
But still it don't remove the fact that this product wasn't thoroughly testet in the PC version before putting it out to the users...

From what I understand, Defiance plays exactly the same across all platforms. The only difference with the PC version is the use of keyboard and mouse as a control device. The mouse is totally useless, but you can configure the keyboard to obtain pretty decent control. A gamepad also works wonders. Give it another go with a game pad, or use my keyboard config, here (http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=339165#post339165).

Later! :D

Hillwar
16th Feb 2004, 19:18
Thank you for your feedback.

Once again I will put it as gentle as I can so that I don't get banned because of the cencorship in the forum. [edited by Admin - We don't censor intelligent discussion, only stupidity...there IS A DIFFERENCE! /edit]

When I play a game I don't want to fight the controls or some stupid camera angle where I can't see the character that I am fighting with.

I guess that some people gets easily impressed by the graphic and effects in the game and overlook the basic of the game, actualy controling the character.
Trying to run or jump on one direction, just to find out that the camera angle have changed once again.

The point is "Don't fight the controls, play the game", normally game developers know this...

Lär
16th Feb 2004, 20:09
Don't worry, you won't get banned as long as you stay cool and play nice. ;) Any criticism about the camera and controls is welcome. Just keep it constructive. :)

I had troubles at first. I switched to gamepad control, and it helped a lot. Granted, some of the jumps were a bit squirrelly, and took serveral tries, but nonetheless, I still enjoyed the game. ;)

If you don't have a gamepad, at least give my keyboard config a try. The way it is set up, it allows you to utilize all of your fingers and provides comfortable spacing on the keyboard. Hope it helps.

Later! :D

blincoln
17th Feb 2004, 01:59
It sounds to me like the people who can't take the truth are the ones who insist that there's something wrong with the game just because they don't like it.

I don't like cilantro in my salsa. Does that mean that people who do are in denial about how salsa should be made?

kakarot
17th Feb 2004, 02:12
personally, i like cilantro in my salsa.. there has to be something wrong with you blinc. :D or something wrong with me for liking it. :confused:

back to the topic. i own the controls. there isn't anything i cant do with the cam. yes, i hated it for 2 days. now i've mastered it. get over it, really fast.

Lär
17th Feb 2004, 07:15
Bah blinc!! Cilantro r0xx0rs!! ;) Only REAL salsa is made with cilantro!! hehe :p

Anyway, I've been pretty neutral on the camera angle issue. There are areas where the camera is bad, but for the most part it's fine. However, I'd like to provide an example that sorta breaks my neutrality, and sides with the "anti-camera" camp.

Exhibit 1 (http://mywebpage.netscape.com/Lar71001/lok/raz_library1.jpg) - In this example, I am in the library of Vorador's mansion. From here, I am supposed to look forward and TK a switch in order to flip a series of spiked rafters, as depicted in Exhibit 2 (http://mywebpage.netscape.com/Lar71001/lok/raz_library2.jpg). However, as you can see in Exhibit 1, the camera seems to have fallen to the floor!! I walked back and forth across the rafter, aim TK, sneak, autoface, and first person view, but could not get the camera to come back to Raz's level. I had to jump down and start over in order to "fix" the camera. :(

So, as you can see, there ARE problems with the new camera system. My problem was only a minor inconvenience, but still annoying nonetheless. There are other areas where the camera was a pain in the butt, especially the boss fight in Chapter 10. :mad: IMO, this was a classic example of having to "fight the controls". The camera system DOES need some work, but I still enjoyed the game. :)

Later! :D

moose562
17th Feb 2004, 17:03
Not exactly relevant to defiance but relevant to the issue :

I *LOVED* BO2 purely because there were so many things that were so bad! there were terrible things going on in that game - i wasn't even aware that there were testers on it! Did nobody think to say "oh by the way, sebastians voice is out of sync" - but it was those little things that made the game for me. I found it to be one of the hardest in the series actually, next to its predecessor.

Thank *GOD* that Defiance wasn't BO2.

Chris@Crystal
17th Feb 2004, 19:38
Just to let all of you know, just because a bug is found by a tester, does not mean it will be fixed in the game. Most of the time bugs are prioritized by how bad they are and can often be closed by the developers. This is the case in all games by most companies, not just Eidos or Crystal Dynamics.

For example, if fixing one small collision bug might cause 5 other worse bugs, then it will probably not be fixed.

On the other hand if there is a crash bug that will not allow the player to get to the next level, it must be addressed.

Hope this helps you understand a little more of the testing process. Believe me in the 30+ games I have tested, the test department has reported virtually every bug in all of the games, unfortunately not all of them were fixed, sometimes due to time constraints.

~Chris

Dogfight
17th Feb 2004, 20:24
Its great of you to be so honest with us, Chris, thanks. Now we know why Blood Omen 2 and Defiance still had some bugs left in them, which varies depending on the platform.

Anyone play Primal, that was the buggiest video game I ever played, yet it is also one of the best I've ever seen.

Dark Abyss
18th Feb 2004, 02:05
Originally posted by van_HellSing PL
Yeah, tell that to the lead tester, he's a moderator here :D.

I assure you that the camera isn't that bad. And I'm NOT a fanboy who takes every aspect of the game for something ingenious. I do have complaints about Defiance, also about the camera (my biggest complaint though is the repetitiveness od the reaver shrines).


If you don't like that the shrines where basically the same it doesn't mean it's bad. I'm shure that they could have been made totally different but think about this: churches, libraries, even shops...they look somehow different but basically they're all the same.

fneh
18th Feb 2004, 21:56
Originally posted by Chris@Crystal
Just to let all of you know, just because a bug is found by a tester, does not mean it will be fixed in the game. Most of the time bugs are prioritized by how bad they are and can often be closed by the developers. This is the case in all games by most companies, not just Eidos or Crystal Dynamics.

For example, if fixing one small collision bug might cause 5 other worse bugs, then it will probably not be fixed.

On the other hand if there is a crash bug that will not allow the player to get to the next level, it must be addressed.

Hope this helps you understand a little more of the testing process. Believe me in the 30+ games I have tested, the test department has reported virtually every bug in all of the games, unfortunately not all of them were fixed, sometimes due to time constraints.

~Chris




I hate to say this Chris but last I checked the USA version of defiance was released a week EARLY. It still had lots of nasty bugs. a couple of them fatal ones (tho I've not personally seen these ones) too. Why was the game released EARLY if there were all these problems? Did the team reponsible just say they couldn't be bothered fixing anymore bugs because of money issues? Or did they just ignore reports of bugs? Either way the game was released EARLY and we were told this was because the game finished bug testing early and was clean. How does this happen to a game riddled with technical problems?

Apocrypha Roxy
18th Feb 2004, 23:24
I hate cilantro.http://mysmilies.creativesell.net/cwm/cwm/freak3.gif



Originally posted by Dogfight
Its great of you to be so honest with us, Chris, thanks. Now we know why Blood Omen 2 and Defiance still had some bugs left in them, which varies depending on the platform.

Anyone play Primal, that was the buggiest video game I ever played, yet it is also one of the best I've ever seen.


My only bug with BO2 was that final lip-synch goof on the PS2. Otherwise the game ran smoothly for me. And I've played Primal (fantastic game, btw), and I found no bugs. No camera issues. But when the camera was pointed out to me, I noticed I started getting motion sickness when I tried to see what the problem was. :p

Caer
19th Feb 2004, 13:26
I didn't really have any major issues with the camera. It was a bit annoying at a few places, but nothing serious. And really, it's impossible for the camera to make it hard to fight enemies, because they are all EASY to beat. Really, no LoK game has ever been hard in the fighting department, and this is no exception. Just bash away and move about, and you'll see there's no problem, regardless of the camera angle.

Fneh: Do you really think they work on the game right up until the very day it's released? As far as I understand, there's a pretty lengthy period after it's done when you have to get approval and stuff like that. Dark Alliance 2, for example, was delayed a lot simlpy because WotC was so slow in approving it. I would think there's plenty of factors that could allow for a game to be released a little earlier (or a lot later).

Chris@Crystal
19th Feb 2004, 18:12
fneh,
Defiance was released early because it passed through Sony and Microsoft QA and passed. Where there are some minor bugs in most all games, I believe Defiance is pretty solid. I find bugs in just about all games I have ever played that have been released to the public. But then again that is what I do for a living, so when I play games that seems to be what I am looking for.
~Chris

HolyMoses
19th Feb 2004, 19:36
Originally posted by Chris@Crystal
But then again that is what I do for a living, so when I play games that seems to be what I am looking for.
~Chris

I am so jealous. I want to test video games for a living. Where do I sign up?
Does it ruin all games you play because of your job? You're just always looking for glitches.

Dark Abyss
19th Feb 2004, 22:28
By the way, how many times do you have to finish a game just to be shure you covered enough bugs not to make it anoying?

evil_sharkey
20th Feb 2004, 05:29
Unfortunately, becoming a game tester requires more than just thousands of hours of gaming under your belt. Big time game testers have to actually know something about the nature of the bugs, which requires computer and technical know how. There was an article about it in the February issue of Game Informer, but I didn't get to read it all before my mad:!! cat found my issue on the floor and defiled it about as thoroughly as it could be defiled. Stupid cat. Anyway, I'm pretty sure PC beta testing includes random gamers, too. I don't know if the same is true for consoles. Does anyone else know more on this subject, like, maybe the resident game tester?:D

By the way, I only noticed one bug in the whole game.