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Mystery88
15th Feb 2004, 18:58
Well, in SR2 we are told that only when two Soul Reavers meat can history be changed. But in Defiance we are told that Raziel culd change history without the Reaver, because he is "released from the Wheel of Fate."
So, what is it? Is it the the SR2 option, the Defiance option, or both? And if both, how?

warpsavant
15th Feb 2004, 19:12
Hrm. I dont know. Maybe its because Raziel is 2 SR's that he has some free will.

{Nosgoths_Ruler}
15th Feb 2004, 20:00
Here is a possible (& plausable) theory:

Because of his "remaking" he was given the gift & made into this "prophesised" being, so that he can become the incarnation in the future that can be taken back in time to merge with himself again later...creating the temporal destortion & because the 2 reavers cause a distortion, the "free will" given to raziel by the unbinding, cannot be changed by the wheel of fate, because the reavers creates a time ward...

WraithStar
15th Feb 2004, 20:10
I believe that the official explanation is this: Two Soul Reaver blades are required to change history. However, with Raziel's free will restored at the end of Soul Reaver 2, he is no longer changing history, he is making it. I'm not sure if understand this completely, but I'm pretty sure I read it in a Q&A somewhere.

Blue Winged Fellow
16th Feb 2004, 15:15
I still think that the "two incarnations of the blade" is valid on Raziel.

He is the Raziel of before the imprisonment, and the blade he carries is his own soul that was imprisoned in the blade. Two incarnations of the same being. This would make him a paradox walking about. Thus, he has the ability to "create" history, or change it, or whatever.

Mystery88
16th Feb 2004, 17:19
But now, as I understand it, Kain has the ability to change history, since he has also been "Freed from the Wheel." And the paradox theory won't work here, because once Raziel entered the Reaver, he became one entity, not a "walking paradox".
So my question is still unanswered. Any help?

Dark Abyss
18th Feb 2004, 01:10
I thind one explanation could be that raziel being that walking paradox as you like to call it he enters the reaver as a walking paradox because the blade and him enter the reaver. Another would be that the "eaver is the Key" remember? Maybe the complete reaver gives the power of free will. I think I'll start over and play all the games again so I'll get a better picture.

NIphrentil G.
18th Feb 2004, 01:28
Excuse me... Did I miss anything??? Were exactly is the"Two Reavers Change The Future" part????
First of, if you're refering to the Kain-King William duel, there are NO TWO SOUL REAVERS!!! It's one and the same!!! That's why the Kings Reaver was cut in half!!! The same reason that Kains' Reaver shattered when he striked Raziel in the first SR. The Reaver COULD NOT DEVOURE ITSELF, so, in order for time to keep going, one of them had to be destroyed...
Secondly, I'll have you refer to the part were Kain explains the Stone and the River example of the flow of time... It doesn't have to INVOLVE the reaver, as long as the stone was big enough... And this is were Raziels Free Will comes in...
Imagine... What IF...
What if Raziel killed Moebius before Kain did?
What if Raziel didn't ressurect Janos Aldren?
What if Raziel didn't persue Kain with such anger?
...But as it seems, recognizing this "Free Will" is not as easy as it sounds...

Omni_Sephiroth
18th Feb 2004, 08:08
I always thought i was because he wasn't ment to be there, at the end of soul reaver 2 he should have been sucked into the blade.

Blue Winged Fellow
18th Feb 2004, 12:23
Well... I'm still thinking why is it that Raziel has free will? I'm inclined to think that the reason is that he is a walking paradox in Nosgoth (that's what I was trying to imply before). I think Raziel didn't have free will until Kain shattered the Reaver on him. That is why, Raziel has to end up into the blade.

In fact, I'm inclined to think that in the end, even with his "free will", Raziel is compelled to do the things he does, or at least the ones where he doesn't really puts an effort forward to change. So far the only time we have seen Raziel "excercise" his "free will" was when he decided NOT to kill Kain in William's Chapel. That showed without doubt the pull of time, which is said to be immutable. By allowing Kain to live, the only other "change" in history we see is when Kain removes the reaver from Raziel in SR2. Can we say that Kain has free will? no. Then how was he able to change history? I don't think the reaver is the "giver of free will." So there must be something else.

The fact that Raziel should have/would have been sucked into the blade, doesn't seem enought as well. He wasn't because he used his free will to let Kain live, but his free will had been "orchestrated" cleverly by "the enemy" to lead them to the trap that Kain mentions.

Maybe I'm totally confused now.... :confused:
I think I have to go back and play all the games again and read all the posts in this forum again! :eek:

NIphrentil G.
18th Feb 2004, 13:28
Well BWF, I think that's the purpose of the game, to make you comfoused!!! But!! Worry not! I was sent upon this world to make it all clear...

For starters, lets get this "when Raziels free will started?" part out of the way... One thing I don't understand is WHY Kain casted Raziel into the Abyss in the first place... Was it out of jealousy? Then why did't he do the same to his other luitenants?? Was it because he knew what would happen??? I think that if he knew THAT, he'd knew better NOT to throw him into the Abyss... Anyway, Raziels free will started just when he landed at the bottom of the Abyss. That's were he escaped this "Wheel of Fate" and wasn't able to be consumed by death... And with the "Elder God" manipulating his thoughts and making him believe that he was BROUGHT BACK and didn't SURVIVE the Abyss, Raziels manipulation begun, so that he could NEVER exercise his "Free Will"... Don't forget that even the "Immortal" Vapmyres could die if they chose to... Though Raziel couldn't die... And not even the Elder God had the means to kill him... He isn't a paradox on the run... He is the walking spirit of the Soul Reaver!!!

Now, about the manipulation of the future... Well, it isn't nessesary for the Reaver to be present when a change in the Time Stream sould be occurred... If you saw the movie "Time Machine" you sould get an idea on how HARD it is to change an, already, written future... And in King Williams chapel, Raziel did NOT exercise his free will. Kain was NEVER meant to die BY THE SOUL REAVER... He was meant to die by Raziel. So, Raziel has never exercised his free will and though Kain saved him from imprisonment in the Reaver once, he only postponed it... Raziel wasn't the Hylden champion either, though... He was only the vessel by which the Hylden champion would fight with Kain(did you notice the GREEN flames commin' out of Raziels eyes when he fought Kain? Well Raziels eye-flames were always blue!!!)... That's what the ancients saw in the future, that's what they drew on stone.

Now, Raziels free will can still manipulate the history of Nosgoth, even with him trapped inside the Reaver. Now, it's the Reaver that is this "Wild Card" on historys deck. And because the Reaver is NOT captured now in the "Wheel of Fate", Kain can do anything with it... Even change the future...

(Just my two cents... I hope someone from Eidos or Crystal Dynamics read this so I would know the sequel to Defiance!!!!)

Blue Winged Fellow
18th Feb 2004, 14:19
Originally posted by NIphrentil G.
One thing I don't understand is WHY Kain casted Raziel into the Abyss in the first place... Was it out of jealousy? Then why did't he do the same to his other luitenants?? Was it because he knew what would happen??? I think that if he knew THAT, he'd knew better NOT to throw him into the Abyss...
Well, I don't think it was out of jealousy. I even think he wasn't very happy when he had him cast into the abbyss, but it may just be me. The reason I don't think he did it out of jealousy is the conversation he has with Raziel in the time streamer chamber at the end of SR1. Having the hability to see into the future, I'm pretty sure Kain knew what he was doing, and he did it reluctantly in a way.

He knows that the key to save both Nosgoth and his destiny is Raziel. Besides, Kain could tell that if Raziel was not cast into the Abbyss, there was no reason to create SR, SR2, BO2 and Defiance and therefore we wouldn't be having this conversation... ;)



Originally posted by NIphrentil G.
Anyway, Raziels free will started just when he landed at the bottom of the Abyss. That's were he escaped this "Wheel of Fate" and wasn't able to be consumed by death... And with the "Elder God" manipulating his thoughts and making him believe that he was BROUGHT BACK and didn't SURVIVE the Abyss, Raziels manipulation begun, so that he could NEVER exercise his "Free Will"... Don't forget that even the "Immortal" Vapmyres could die if they chose to... Though Raziel couldn't die... And not even the Elder God had the means to kill him... He isn't a paradox on the run... He is the walking spirit of the Soul Reaver!!!
In that case I have a HARD question for your theory: What ARE the Sluaghs? And the Dark wraiths in SR1? How come they are the inhabitants of the Underworld and are not consumed in "The Weel of Fate"? It is said in SR that the spirits of the vampires can't be pulled into the weel, they cannot complete their destinies. When the wraiths are allowed to return to their bodies, they still retain the ability to suck "soul". How are they different from Raziel? Besides the obvious "shift into material" bit.


Originally posted by NIphrentil G.
Now, about the manipulation of the future... Well, it isn't nessesary for the Reaver to be present when a change in the Time Stream sould be occurred... If you saw the movie "Time Machine" you sould get an idea on how HARD it is to change an, already, written future...[/B]

In Time Machine, the future could be changed. It was the past that couldn't be changed, and the main reason for it was, that it was that single event in the past what drove the guy to create a time machine. So, essentially, any possible past that he could try to change, was destined to fail, otherwise the paradox was going to be created. If the girl didn't die, the time machine would not exist, and no one could come back to save her from that death. More than a time machine, what he created was a dimentional portal. All he was doing by travelling in the past, was testing all possible paths that would lead him to create the machine. However, once the machine existed, from that point forward, he could (and DID) change the future.

Originally posted by NIphrentil G.
And in King Williams chapel, Raziel did NOT exercise his free will. Kain was NEVER meant to die BY THE SOUL REAVER... He was meant to die by Raziel. So, Raziel has never exercised his free will and though Kain saved him from imprisonment in the Reaver once, he only postponed it... [/B]

I disagree. You saw how time was "rushing" to the moment when he killed Kain. Even Kain knew that Raziel could and probably would kill him then and there. He was hoping to make him understand that Raziel could in fact change history with a rather graphical and very risky demonstration.

Originally posted by NIphrentil G.
Now, Raziels free will can still manipulate the history of Nosgoth, even with him trapped inside the Reaver. Now, it's the Reaver that is this "Wild Card" on historys deck. And because the Reaver is NOT captured now in the "Wheel of Fate", Kain can do anything with it... Even change the future...[/B]

The reaver was never captured in the weel. Only souls (and only certain souls at that, the Hylden for example, found a way around the wheel) are trapped in the weel of fate. The reaver was an inanimated object.

NIphrentil G.
18th Feb 2004, 20:21
Well, I don't think it was out of jealousy. I even think he wasn't very happy when he had him cast into the abbyss, but it may just be me. The reason I don't think he did it out of jealousy is the conversation he has with Raziel in the time streamer chamber at the end of SR1. Having the hability to see into the future, I'm pretty sure Kain knew what he was doing, and he did it reluctantly in a way.

Well, I have to agree with you in that one. Though, it must have been a, kind of, "Matrix"ian (if I'm allowed this term!!!) view in the future... "We cannot see past the choises we do not understand"... And Kain mustn't have known from the beggining that it was Raziel inside his sword...

Besides, Kain could tell that if Raziel was not cast into the Abbyss, there was no reason to create SR, SR2, BO2 and Defiance and therefore we wouldn't be having this conversation...

You think THAT'S the reason Kain casted Raziel into the Abyss??? I never thought it that way... Hmmm....

In that case I have a HARD question for your theory: What ARE the Sluaghs? And the Dark wraiths in SR1? How come they are the inhabitants of the Underworld and are not consumed in "The Weel of Fate"? It is said in SR that the spirits of the vampires can't be pulled into the weel, they cannot complete their destinies. When the wraiths are allowed to return to their bodies, they still retain the ability to suck "soul". How are they different from Raziel? Besides the obvious "shift into material" bit.

I think this is explained in Defiance... Raziel thinks to himself: "I'd better get to the material plane quick befor I end up as one of these creatures..." (or something like that) I can't surely say that they are vampyres that escaped the "Wheel of Fate" (IF there is such a thing) but they were intelligent creatures once that were turen into Reappers of Souls, just like the one the Elder God tried to make Raziel... A spoon for his food!!! And, come to think of it, the "Wheel of Fate" really IS a fraud!!! The Elder God teached this theory all around only for people (mostly vampyres) not to fear death... And when they die, he could devour their souls to indolge HIS hunger!!!! Anyway... That's not the point of the conversation so I must go on...

In Time Machine, the future could be changed. It was the past that couldn't be changed, and the main reason for it was, that it was that single event in the past what drove the guy to create a time machine.

EXACTLY MY POINT!!!! What is the "Past"??? From which point on does this past exist??? From the last poin of your life in the future, or from the point you are now??? Imagine that you were from the year 2597 and you traveled back in time to this age... To you, you would be in the past... But to me, it would still be the future!!! And that's what a paradox really is!!! You could make a change that affects MY future, but doesn't alter your past... But you could also change your past and not my future... An example? Let's say you came back in order to kill your great-great grand father... If this happens, then you would be never born and you would have never came in the past to kill your ancestor... A paradox is not created because you are expeled from the time stream and never trully exist... Now, let's see another possibility... You still come back and you send ME to kill your grandparent. Me AND your ancestor are in the same time... None of us is expeled... But if I kill him, you wouldn't have come to tell me to do so. Though YOU didn't do anything so you are not expeled either!!! Now that's a paradox!!!! And you are out of the Wheel of Fate... Can you understand now what happened to Raziel and Kain in King Williams chapel????

I disagree. You saw how time was "rushing" to the moment when he killed Kain. Even Kain knew that Raziel could and probably would kill him then and there. He was hoping to make him understand that Raziel could in fact change history with a rather graphical and very risky demonstration.

See above!!!!

The reaver was an inanimated object.

You see? You said it yourself!!! The Reaver WAS an inanimate object... But now it has a soul... Raziel's soul!!! That's why it has the capability to destroy this, so called, "Wheel of Fate"...

Dark Abyss
18th Feb 2004, 22:15
Ok, now i kinda got the picture with the paradoxes and all. What i didn't understand is how come Kain came back to life. That really is no-sleep reason for me :)

Jeffers
19th Feb 2004, 14:10
The Pillar of Balance sustained Kain. That is how he came back to life.

And I agree with the rest of the posts which say Raziel is still compelled to do certain things as History has already been written.

And NIphrentil G, the one time Raziel could have killed Moebious before Kain and altered the future was in Williams chapple where Raziel is holding the Soul Reaver and Moebius comes in without his staff. A paradox is created and Moebious is fearfull. He even says "You almost had me my little blue assasin. But that will be the only chance you get"

Jeffers

Blue Winged Fellow
19th Feb 2004, 17:03
Originally posted by NIphrentil G.
EXACTLY MY POINT!!!! What is the "Past"??? From which point on does this past exist??? From the last poin of your life in the future, or from the point you are now???
Well... Since there is not proven time travel law, but only theories, we have to set ourselves in the right frame to be able to reach the bottom of the question. If you set yourself in the "Time Machine" view of time, then you cannot create paradoxes. The most you could do, is affect certain events essentially jumping time lines. But in that view, time is immutable. Events that must happen, do happen in all time lines, that is why the girl could not be saved no matter how many times he went back.
There are other theories, the "Back to the future" one, for example, allows certain paradoxes to happen, and in here, time does flow like a river. Paradoxes bend the flow of time, and these bends send ripples down the stream (the brothers dissapearing in the picture in the first movie), but the actual time traveler is oblivious to the change. The environment is affected but the time traveler is the same one from the original time line. That's why Doc Brown and Marty know that something is wrong when they come back to 1985 from the future, and have to go back to 1965 to fix it. There's another theory (did you see Frequency?) where changes in the time line, do reach the guy in the future who's altering the time, in the form of new memories.
Then we have what I think is the LOK theory. Sort of a mix of them all. Here some events must happen no matter what. Time tries to remain ummutable. It abhorbs a paradox. When some change really affects the normal flow of time, then the repercutions reach the time traveler in the form of new memories.
The Prince of Persia theory is a good one, in which time is like a sea. Waves move back and forth and we are just floating on it. In this case, you could essentially move about time and SEE the future. They avoid completly the issue of the paradoxes, except for one detail...
How does the Prince has still got the Dagger of time at the end of the game, if he went all the way back to before attacking the palace?? :confused:

However, the best theory I like is the one where time is universal and instantaneous. That says that you cannot change the past. If you where in your past and tried to kill your grandfather before your father was born, you simply couldn't. The bullet would bounce back on his skin, or probably just go through without creating any damage. If you do change something in the past, it is because you always had. You were meant to do it. You cannot change the lives of anyone. The only life you can affect is your own future one.

Originally posted by NIphrentil G.
Now, let's see another possibility... You still come back and you send ME to kill your grandparent. Me AND your ancestor are in the same time... None of us is expeled... But if I kill him, you wouldn't have come to tell me to do so. Though YOU didn't do anything so you are not expeled either!!!
I would be expelled anyway, coz I could never be born, therefore I could not have hired you to kill no one, and THAT's the paradox.
The paradox in William's case is that Kain has the exact same Soul Reaver, William's is from the future and Kain's from the past (or at least from William's blade past). The one from the past CANNOT break... is the one from the future the one that gets broken. The other way around, and both blades would break,

Originally posted by NIphrentil G.
Now that's a paradox!!!! And you are out of the Wheel of Fate... Can you understand now what happened to Raziel and Kain in King Williams chapel????

I fail to see how your explanation applies to Raziel and Kain. Raziel wouldn't be killing his great grand father... He would be killing FUTURE Kain, in the past ok, but still after the events that brought them there. The paradox, small as it was, is that Raziel WAS MEANT to kill Kain, and he DIDN'T.

Originally posted by NIphrentil G.
The reaver was an inanimated object.
You see? You said it yourself!!! The Reaver WAS an inanimate object... But now it has a soul... Raziel's soul!!! That's why it has the capability to destroy this, so called, "Wheel of Fate"... [/B]
I was thinking in those lines, but I am still not satisfied with it. If this is true, then Raziel could have also affected the elder god before entering the Reaver. If only the Soul was required, I don't see why it had to be inside the reaver. Raziel purpose was to help Kain see the Squid. But I fail to see how entering the Reaver makes the difference.

HolyMoses
19th Feb 2004, 17:27
There's also another time traveling theory that is worth mentioning.

It's the theory that the past, present, and future all exist in the same instant. Right now, for example in your life, your parents are conseving you, in the same instant you're reading this here now. You exist because they've made that choice; however, your children do not yet exist because you have yet to make that choice yourself. There for in essense if the past version of your mother and father got into an argument, (that they presently had before) and for some reason desided not to resolve your differences, the result would be an alternate dimension of that which you live in. (*mind job, no?*)

Then again, this theory is totally obliterated should it ever be proven that we do not have free will.

Blue Winged Fellow
19th Feb 2004, 17:41
Well, that was the theory I was saying that I like the best... Time is universal and instantaneous. Free Will is an Illusion.

You only put it in words better than I did. And certaily there are bound to be more theories about time travelling and their effects.

Elyon
21st Feb 2004, 10:56
Through extensive thinking, im inclined to think Raziel doesnt have free will... I know the game itself says he does and the creators of the game probably believe it to, but its just impossible that Raziel could have "free will" yet have no free will concerning him going into the blade. Arguments that say he may have limited free will but he stil ahs to go into the reaver is insufficient, you either have or dont have free will.

The only time in the entire game that any character had free will is in SR2 during the time distortion, anything could happen and history could be changed.

DJpick
21st Feb 2004, 18:37
but its just impossible that Raziel could have "free will" yet have no free will concerning him going into the blade.
Actually, he CHOSE to go into the blade, so you could say he defied the new fate Kain had written, by choosing to go into the blade this time.

So it becomes a question if "was it fate?" because he had been put intot the blade before? Or free will because he chose to do it this time?

Jeffers
21st Feb 2004, 22:10
Ah, but don't forget, after Raziel was saved from the Reaver in SR2, nobody could see his fate. They could see the effects of the choices he made and makes, but his history could be said to be in a flux. Not even Moebious could predict what he would do, that is why he sounded so triumphant in Vorador's mansion.

Jeffers

Dark Abyss
23rd Feb 2004, 06:43
By the way... when Kain saved Raziel from the Reaver in SR2, that proved that Kain had free will too right?

DJpick
23rd Feb 2004, 07:45
Well no, because in the end the SR was still made. And free will isn't just making a decision during the paradox, because technically it was Raziel that allowed that to happen. Free will would be doing what you wanted without a paradox, and I don't think Kain can do that.

NIphrentil G.
26th Feb 2004, 05:04
Raziels Free Will was, merely, pictured while the Reaver urged to kill Kain in Williams Chapel... In another dimension, in the same time (if you can picture it like I do...), the SR DID kill Kain at that time... And these moments stayed in the book of time as standards... So, when the time came again, the Reaver just followd the predestined path into Kain's body, killing him... But Raziel stoped that... If he didn't had free will, he would only seem to "guide" the sword into Kains body...
Like, right now that I'm typing this post... If I assume that I am destined to type it, I only seem to press the keys in the keyboard... But if I had a choice in the matter and tryed to do that again, I would only stand behind my desk and see the keys press down by themselves!!!!!!!!!!!!

Dark Abyss
26th Feb 2004, 09:51
Another question is why didn't the reaver try to eat Raz the first time they met in the Chappel? Is it because it had to kill Kain first? The reaver was meant to eat Raz and become the Soul Reaver and it rendered Raz helpless everytime it had something to do like imbue itself with elemental powers. Ofcourse that the reaver had to be imbued and get all the elemental powers and stuff but why did it try to eat raz before that in the end of SR2? .And if the reaver had to kill kain...that would mean that the scion of balance will never exist right? I mean if it wasn't for Kain...the reaver would just pop out on of Raz just by itself? I don't think so. And if it wouldn't have done so...the scion would remain again incomplete. So what's up with that? I think Kain had to have free will to do that. And in the end i don't think that Raz gave free will to Kain to destroy the EG because come on how stupid has to be a god that controls fait and life and death to let that happen to himself. To give the power to someone to kill him? Indeed Raz entered the reaver and gave free will to the reaver at most but not to Kain. Kain just didn't have the power to see the EG to kill it so the EG needed to hide himself from everybody else that possesed free will because...it could kill him. The thing is maybe all vampires had free will in some matter after being cast out of the wheel of fate.

Blue Winged Fellow
26th Feb 2004, 13:18
I will only answer the question "Why didn't the Reaver try to consume Raziel the first time in William's Chapel?" beacuse I don't think I can follow the rest of your post... :confused:

Anyway, the reason is quite simple really. The reaver that was broken in two, the one Raziel "healed," had ALREADY consumed Raziel's Soul. That is the reaver from a certain future that Moebious had given William to fight Kain. It is the one that created the Paradox.

DJpick
26th Feb 2004, 20:23
Raziels Free Will was, merely, pictured while the Reaver urged to kill Kain in Williams Chapel... In another dimension, in the same time (if you can picture it like I do...), the SR DID kill Kain at that time... And these moments stayed in the book of time as standards... So, when the time came again, the Reaver just followd the predestined path into Kain's body, killing him... But Raziel stoped that... If he didn't had free will, he would only seem to "guide" the sword into Kains body...
If it happened in another dimension, why would it do what was already done elsewhere? I mean, if THAT timeline happened in another dimension, then this would imply that this was a timeline where it didn't happen, ergo it wouldn't force it to do it again.

Another question is why didn't the reaver try to eat Raz the first time they met in the Chappel? Is it because it had to kill Kain first? The reaver was meant to eat Raz and become the Soul Reaver and it rendered Raz helpless everytime it had something to do like imbue itself with elemental powers.
Because in WTJ's chapel, the Reaver already had a soul in it. It had no need to attack Raziel because it had already done it 500 years before.

NIphrentil G.
27th Feb 2004, 00:48
I think you misunderstood the meaning I gave to the word "dimension"... I ment, in a place were things go as planned, ergo, the imidiate future... See the example I gave for further explanation...

Ok, in Williams Chapel the Reaver already had Raziel inside it... Why didn't it consume him when he found it lying around near the end of SR2??? It WAS the original Reaver... (actualy, the answer is quite simple... I just want to see if anybody else saw that...)

DJpick
27th Feb 2004, 05:05
Ok, in Williams Chapel the Reaver already had Raziel inside it... Why didn't it consume him when he found it lying around near the end of SR2??? It WAS the original Reaver... (actualy, the answer is quite simple... I just want to see if anybody else saw that...)
I don't really see this as an example. Because that evebt happened 500 years before WTJ chapel. Maybe I just don't see what you're getting at, but it was pretty obvious that the Reaver with WTJ was the SR, while the one at the end was the BR.

Dark Abyss
27th Feb 2004, 10:24
Ok, I see it now with the reavers in Williams Chappel, but when Kain struck down raziel and the reaver was broken, wasn't that reaver supposed to eat raz? Because of what you say, that Will had the "full" SR, kain had to have the reaver without raz in it so why didn't it try to eat him then?

DJpick
27th Feb 2004, 16:37
Because in SR1, that was the SR too. That's how Raziel was able to get the WB, because the SR couldn't eat itself. It's not the WB that put Raziel into the blade, because in the end of SR2 the WB was on the outside of the blade. They even mention thins in SR1 and 2.

NIphrentil G.
27th Feb 2004, 21:48
Basicly, both Kain and William The Just had the Soul Reavers. Williams's broke in the fight when Kain killed him so there was only Kain with a Soul Reaver... Actualy (correct me if I'm wrong) in Defiance it's the first time Kain has the BLOOD Reaver and not the SOUL Reaver...

But, back to my first question, when Raziel found the Blood Reaver inside the Sarafan Stronghold... Why didn't it consume him??? (I repeat, I KNOW the answer to that... I just want to see if YOU know it to!!!!)

Blue Winged Fellow
27th Feb 2004, 21:57
I'm not sure, really. I think It has to do with Moebious Staff. At the time I didn't think much of it, but I think since the blade is imbued with Vampiric sorcery, and the staff disables vampires, I can only assume that the blade was disabled.

Also, I think, the blade tried to consume Raziel ONLY after he had killed Human Raziel. It could be that the blade was only trying to consume Raziel's soul after he was actually dead?

What's your simple answer?

warpsavant
27th Feb 2004, 22:08
That stupid stizaff again. The real question is why the staff disabled the w.b. in the first place. I guess it can only be because it has dead balance guardian spirits in it or something.

HolyMoses
27th Feb 2004, 22:21
Originally posted by Blue Winged Fellow
I'm not sure, really. I think It has to do with Moebious Staff. At the time I didn't think much of it, but I think since the blade is imbued with Vampiric sorcery, and the staff disables vampires, I can only assume that the blade was disabled.

Also, I think, the blade tried to consume Raziel ONLY after he had killed Human Raziel. It could be that the blade was only trying to consume Raziel's soul after he was actually dead?

What's your simple answer?



How's about this? The wraith blade was use to meeting it's twin whenever it touched the physical blade. When the wraith blade awoke, having been influenced by Mobius's staff, it wanted to be complete and feel it's absent twin. So it sucked Raziel in with it to complete itself.

NIphrentil G.
27th Feb 2004, 22:59
What's your simple answer?

Heh, this answer should be given in a different thread but the hell with it!!! Here goes...

In that other thread, some one told that the Reaver was uninfluenced from the wheel of fate because it's an inanimate object... Well, here is the proof that EVERYTHING falls to the Wheel (I'd rather call it "Wheel Of Time" rather than "Wheel Of Fate" which is the imaginary constraction of the Elder God...)

What IF the Blade consumed Raziel when they first "met"... Let's say that Raziels destiny IS to be the soul of the Reaver... And don't forget the feeling he had in Janos's home when he presented the blade to him... If the blade consumed Raziel, he wouldn't kill the Human Raziel and Kain would never have raized the dead Raziel to make him a vampyre, thus Kain would have never thrown Raziel into the Abyss etc ect ect ... So the blade would have never consumed Raziel...

Talking about a paradox, huh????????

Now, for the staff affecting the Wraith Blade... Well, you got me... I have no answer to that...

DJpick
28th Feb 2004, 11:33
when Raziel found the Blood Reaver inside the Sarafan Stronghold
It wasn't the Reaver that absorbed Raziel. It was the WB. But it needed a vessel to hold him, and the BR made the perfect vessel.

Also, the WB may have known that it needed to create itself. Ergo, it forced the BR to impale Raziel in order to create itself.

The main question is how did the BR absorb Raziel in Defiance, when the WB didn't directly wrap around the BR like it did in SR2?

I think the Reaver was made to hold him, not to be the acting agent that absorbed him.

Jeffers
28th Feb 2004, 16:01
With all other foes exhausted, the conjoined blades turned themselves on me. And I realized, finally, why I had sensed nothing when Janos offered me the blade.

The Reaver was never forged to be a soul-stealing weapon.

The ravenous, soul-devouring entity trapped in the blade was - and always had been me

It was the will of the Soul Revaer and the blood thirst of the Blood Reaver that caused Raziel to be absorbed into the reaver. It was never designed to be a soul stealing weapon, but the enchaentment cast upon it meant that for it to be any use for the scion of balance, it needed to be purified by a pure soul and the only way is for Raziel to be absorbed into the blade.

Jeffers

Blue Winged Fellow
29th Feb 2004, 15:17
Originally posted by warpsavant
That stupid stizaff again. The real question is why the staff disabled the w.b. in the first place. I guess it can only be because it has dead balance guardian spirits in it or something.

Well, I was referring to the Blood Reaver really... But you ARE right. Why does the staff has any influence over the Wraith Blade? I have no honest clue. I don't think the blade had any guardians in it, since that actually happens in Defiance.


Originally posted by NIphrentil G.
In that other thread, some one told that the Reaver was uninfluenced from the wheel of fate because it's an inanimate object...
Yeah, that other someone I think it was me, and I still maintain that. The S.R. is not bound to the weel of fate. A soul is needed in the cicle of birth, dead and rebirth.

As for the rest of your post, you're essentially agreen with me, the blade couldn't consume Raziel until the human Raziel had been killed (if in fact that is the way it has always happened, and it wasn't another "paradox" introduced by Raziel in SR2)


Originally posted by DJpick
It wasn't the Reaver that absorbed Raziel. It was the WB. But it needed a vessel to hold him, and the BR made the perfect vessel.
I dissagree with that. The WB IS Raziel. Remember he says (I think in the end of SR2) that the reason why the physical blade had shattered when Kain had struck him with it was because it could not consume its own soul (or itself as he says it)?

Originally posted by Jeffers
It was the will of the Soul Revaer and the blood thirst of the Blood Reaver that caused Raziel to be absorbed into the reaver. It was never designed to be a soul stealing weapon, but the enchaentment cast upon it meant that for it to be any use for the scion of balance, it needed to be purified by a pure soul and the only way is for Raziel to be absorbed into the blade.

From the reaction of Janos when Raziel tells him that the blade had tried to consume him, and later when he shows him the WB, I think the Reaver was created in fact to be the prison of the "Hylden champion". However, Janos and company, at the time knew little or maybe nothing about how Raziel was meant to be both the Hylden and the Vampire's champion. And definetly nothing about who the real enemy was

DJpick
29th Feb 2004, 21:07
I dissagree with that. The WB IS Raziel. Remember he says (I think in the end of SR2) that the reason why the physical blade had shattered when Kain had struck him with it was because it could not consume its own soul (or itself as he says it)?
And? In SR1 the WB was INSIDE the Reaver, so it would try to reave itself when it struck Raziel. We all know that.

But in SR2 the WB was not inside the Reaver. It wrapped around the Reaver. In fact, I think they mention the WB was drawing Raziels soul out. It's what caused the paradox. The WB CAN reave Raziel, it just won't happen because it would be a huge fatal paradox. But the WB was trying to Reave Raziel's soul, and since the Reaver was empty, Raziel ended up in the Reaver instead of in the WB.

The events of SR1 and SR2 are a little different, since one of the blades was the SR, and the other was the BR convered by the WB.

it was because it could not consume its own soul (or itself as he says it)?
Of course it can't, but it doesn't say it can't try. And that's what pulled Raziel into the Reaver. The WB was trying to reave it's own soul, and it couldn't.

Dark Abyss
1st Mar 2004, 06:29
By the way...remember when i think Janos said that the reaver is the key? Maybe Janos didn't know what kind of key. Maybe the WB was the key to enter the BR and reave Raziel. And only a new BR could do that (Janos had that one).

DJpick
1st Mar 2004, 06:38
A new BR? You mean there was a second one made? And the Reaver from the murals isn't the one Kain holds?

Highly unlikely.

I think they knew the Reaver would serve it's purpose, just that they got the method behind it wrong. Kind of like using a shotgun to fish. It works, but not efficiently. I think that's why Raziel makes his decision in the end, because it had to be done, and there was no way around it.

Dark Abyss
1st Mar 2004, 09:48
I didn't mean it as a new reaver. It's THE reaver allright just that it's from the past and it hasn't been forged yet. And that reaver, after consumes Raziel, it is going to be in Kain and Williams' hands. So the one that Janos has is actually the unfinished reaver. In my opinion.:D

DJpick
1st Mar 2004, 09:51
I think that was the idea conveyed when they said it was forged alone for raziel alone (a reference to the outtakes :))

Dark Abyss
1st Mar 2004, 10:29
guess so