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Sebastian_W
14th Feb 2004, 15:11
Take a time and read the following article:

http://www.1up.com/article2/0,4364,1526520,00.asp

It makes everything o so clear. We already know that there are no rope arrows, that shadows are blue and not black, that it is more of a console game than a computer game and that there is a 3rd person view. But now we also know that those of us who are thief fans are nothing but "MIT grads" and that Thief 3 is made to appeal to a larger audience. *sob*

Garret will also be able, now, to attack guards and have a fair chance against them and isn't required to run away and "hide for a minute and a half". He will also be able to throw oil on them and set them afire.

I am now convinced that Thief 3 will be nothing but a bad console game for X-box owners below the age of 16 (I do not include Thief fans under the age of 16 of course! ).

Damn! I really get sad... I mean. Finally we will get a new Thief game and of course it is turned into a bad console game for people who do not have the patience to sneak through a game.

FrozenNorth
14th Feb 2004, 16:17
I really have no idea. I just hope that if they are willing to take the risk of failure when trying to get more players they would at least give us options to tweak our games.
Like one should be able to adjust the darkness of shadows, the damage your char can take/deal and maybe some "classic mode" to be like Thief 1&2 without the "cool" new thingies...
Maybe the worst nightmare I have is about the money/gold that you can acquire during your "free-time". If you can get huge amounts of money and they put in a terribly overpowerful arsenal of weapons&equipment, who's gonna bother to sneak instead of buying every arrow and bomb and forget about sneaking? I think the arsenal should be small enough and simple, just like in T1&2, no fancy stuff to interrupt our little dark operations :D

Squid
14th Feb 2004, 16:37
Actually, that article doesn't sound that bad. If each level takes about two hours to complete, that's on par with the previous two games. It didn't say anything about 'blue shadows'.

Frozen, I, for one, play more as an assassin than a stealth expert. However, from what's been previously posted, you will be able to set up the difficulty settings for the way YOU want to play. Don't want to kill? Tag the setting. Don't want to be seen at all? Tag the setting. Want to slay everything in sight? Tag the setting.

Also consider the fact that a freeform city was originally considered for T3 back under LGS, and that we all b**ched about how cool a freeform city would be, I think it's a bit hypocritical for us, now, to say we don't want it after all.

Let's wait and see how it goes before we decide it's going to suck.

Squid

HOC
14th Feb 2004, 17:11
none of the articles sound that bad. unlike the flopping piece of sh** that dx:iw was, t: ds is putting some new things and concepts into the game. which shows that IS are at least dedicating some thought to the game. ok, so now people have a fair chance at surviving battles, there are no rope arrows and the game is meant to have a broader audience.

but what's wrong with a free-roam city? an actual continuation of the storyline? a new engine that allows you to close window shades? wallhugging?

so far, from what i've read, IS are putting in just as many things into the game as they're "changing".

i'm not saying the game is gonna rock, or suck. i'm very skeptical on it all myself actually. just don't know what to expect when it's released.


but on a brighter note, one that ya just can't argue...is this bit from the same article:
In its current alpha state, the PC version looks superior in action -- it runs smoothly and quickly at all times, which is more than can be said for the Xbox port right now. Spector pointed out at the demo that the completed Xbox version will have quicker load times, larger environments, and faster framerates than the console DX: Invisible War, which should be good news for Ion Storm fans.

larger environments? fina-****-ingly. although, without any kind of description, that can mean the levels are as big as the graveyard in thief 2. but i'm hopeful.

CleptoManiac
14th Feb 2004, 17:12
I did also notice that 'MIT grads' justification for making a 'broader game'. *SOB 2*

It's a fact that console games, and their design mentality, aren't about contemplative hardcore patient people at all.

FrozenNorth
14th Feb 2004, 17:16
I didn't say that a freeform city was a bad idea, I just have bad feelings about it 'cos these are things that can go terribly wrong if they won't think it through. And in these consoletimes it seems that everything isn't being thought out the best way....money plays too big a role :(

And about 2hours/mission and while the game will be having 12missions (propably) would be about 24 hours experience. While it was ok back then I would like to get more 'cos today I feel disappointed by every game, no matter how good they are, just because they are too damn short and unfortunately new games tend to be too easy also (Max Payne 2 for example). I wish some reloading and I have a great need to think about my routes and actions during a game...

So I have some good and some bad expectations about Thief3 and I just hope that they can manage it well and take use of PC's power and keep us old fans satisfied (that's what we all want, right?) :)

Fafnir13
14th Feb 2004, 19:58
I've been worried that Thief 3 was going to suk ever since I heard Ion Storm was going to make it, mainly because the stealth in Deus Ex was nonexistant. Meh, they have people form Looking Glass, so they should be able to overcome those limitations right?
Other worries: the freeform city with retainable gold and inventory. How exactly will the levels be designed if there are no set limits to what gear you can carry? It will depend on how the shopping system works, but it would be aweful if things like invisibility potions were always available. Being able to retain gold is also problematic. It was nice to know in the other game that you didn't need to hoard your wealth, so you could spend as much as possible to get your missions gear. Now I'll worry about whether or not there will be some item I'll really want or need alter on, and end up hoarding wealth. For me at least, this new way of dealing with items and gold will mean I''ll use them even less.
Then there's the city. Thieving for the sake of thieving gets old rather fast, but you'll want to do it for all the extra gold. I'm also worried that it will cause confusion as to where to go next. Being stuck in a thief level, especially the large ones, can be a major pain, but at least there are some limits. Now you suddenly have an entire city? It all comes down to level design there, and hopefully they won't screw it up.
I miss the sword, climbing walls sounds to gimicky, and the focus seems to be going too much towards the hack and slash style. meh, it might turn out okay.

soverign
14th Feb 2004, 22:01
There's stealth is DX...its possible to beat the entire game without killing anyone, actually...

I can see your point, but why be so negative so soon? No particular advantage as far as i can see in doing so. If ur worried about the game sucking, try to get it out of ur mind and try it when a demos out. i have my worries too, but i think it will at least be OK. Anyway, im not a hardcore Theif fan (i've only played a demo of the second) so i guess my opnion really doenst mean much.

Mr. Perfect
14th Feb 2004, 22:20
Couple things people have said that I'd like to comment on.

Stealth is an option in Deus Ex 1. I play that game mostly as an assasin, so througout the entire game I'm always sneaking up on people in order to put the dragon's tooth upside their head.

I dont feal that T:DS is moving twards hack-and-slash. If it was, why would we have a wee dagger instead of a big old broadsword? If anything, they're promoting the stealth line, no matter if you're ghosting, killing, or knocking people out.

Freeform cities have been done very well before now. If you've played Grand Theft Auto 3, then you know that weapons as well as entire portions of the city can be restricted depending on the missions you've completed.

I'm holding out final judgement untill the demo comes out. I'd suggest doing the same. :)

Dream
14th Feb 2004, 23:52
The thing I'm most worried about the possible switch to third person view and the whole mission-interwhining-with-eachother-thing is that it turns the game into a sort of RPG-hybrid.


So I'm very curious what Ion Storm made of our beloved thief.

Because, hey, I waited so long for this moment to come so I won't just dismiss it because of this or that and I guess when hearing of IS doing the development we knew it wouldn't be the same again.

Gumdrop
15th Feb 2004, 01:27
My heart grew warmer when the ambiance of the new T3 site invaded my monitor and speakers. Things are looking up! :)

Kerghan
15th Feb 2004, 05:51
I'm holding out final judgement untill the demo comes out. I'd suggest doing the same.

Yes, it's best to wait until there's a demo first, but I cannot help but be worried. What am I most worried about? Autoaiming nerfing localized damage! I mean, I want to be able to
A: Stab people in the back.
B: Shoot people in the head.
C: Shoot people in the heart (you could do this in Thief 2 I believe).

If the game is designed to be played with autoaiming because of the console, 1 hit kills might make it just too easy and therefore recognizeable localized damage could be nerfed like it was in a certain other sequel made by the same company that will go unmentioned in this post. Have any previews stated that 1 hit kills are possible? If anyone could clear this up, it'd be much appreciated.

HOC
15th Feb 2004, 06:38
i have a pretty good feeling 1 hit kills will be included into the game. afterall, they were very possible in the first two...all ya needed to do was snipe a guard with a broadhead or sneak up and "backstab". all that was required was for the guard/baddy to not be at all aware of anyone (namely you) in the area.

as for there being autoaiming....i doubt it's necessary. they might have removed the sway effect if you hold an arrow too long....and that would suck imo. but with many fps games being on the xbox now and quite a number of it's fans not needing autoaiming...it might just be an option.

that's just speculation though. hopefully IS are using some good sense on these decisions.

Mike Fang
15th Feb 2004, 07:25
Well I read the article and as far as I can tell, "Thief: Deadly Shadows" should be a credit to the Thief legacy. I don't know why some people thought that just because certain aspects were going to be altered that the entire game was going to be ruined.

For starters I, personally, am GLAD they got rid of that broadsword. A dagger is just more practical! Can you imagine trying to sneak around a mansion with this 5 ft piece of metal bouncing on your hip or strapped to your back?

Also, the trading of rope arrow for climbing gloves is probably give and take, but in favor of the gloves. True, it might make things difficult when it comes to stuff like when you need to do a long jump, grab onto something, then jump the rest of the way to your destination.

But think back to the rope arrows: if you shot them too close to a wall, you couldn't grab them. If you didn't hit the edge of a roof JUST right, you couldn't climb all the way up; you'd get to the top of the rope, press the jump button, miss the edge, and fall to your death. With the gloves, it will be much easier to just walk up to a wall, equip the gloves, and start climbing. I'll bet it even makes it easier to climb up a wall when you're in the water, making getting into a mansion by swimming around the moat to the back much easier.

I also read that some people were worried about the aspects where the missions were continuous and that money would be carried over from one mission to the next, requiring them to consider things like budgeting their cash or deciding what to buy and when, and what to do and when.

Well....that's what LIFE is like! This game is taking steps in the direction to make it more like if you really were stepping into Garret's boots. And that would require decision making skills at times. Do you stop to follow the pimp going to each of his prostitutes to collect the evening's cash, then bash him in the head, drag him into an alley and rob him blind? Or do you continue on to follow the fat noblewoman with all the jewelry just waiting to be snatched? Save your cash now, or buy those extra noisemaker arrows for a rainy day? I don't want to be insulting, but if you're afraid to have to make a decision in something that's just a game, with a save feature no less, that doesn't speak too highly of you.

I myself will admit to being hesitant about the 3rd person view. I thought that it would make things difficult, not being able to see though Garret's eyes, especially when trying to position yourself JUST so. But from what I heard, with the ability to do things such as hug walls and such, it might just work out for the best. Think about games like "Tenchu:Wrath of Heaven". The only concern will be the camera angle. When sneaking up to a doorway, you want to be able to look through the door, not at the corner right behind Garret. But with the ability to switch between 1st and 3rd person views, that problem should be easily handled.

All in all I'd say this game is looking good as far as gameplay itself is concerned, so long as they don't skimp on Garret's dry wit and the cutscenes.

Thought I do have one big concern: with these really fancy graphics, from the looks of the screenshots, what're the computer requirements for this game going to be like? I've played a few of them that, while they ran well on my computer, if you held the camera at the wrong angle and required too much graphics to be on the screen at once, the animation would become jerky and chopped up. I hope this isn't going to be one of those games that requires the CD to be read by the program constantly; the stopping and starting to load character sequences can really throw a person off.

HOC
15th Feb 2004, 08:02
Originally posted by Mike Fang

Thought I do have one big concern: with these really fancy graphics, from the looks of the screenshots, what're the computer requirements for this game going to be like?


being that it's the same engine used for dx:iw, will probably have the same requirements. with the exception that even the alpha (according to the articles) is running "smooth with little loss of performance".

FrozenNorth
15th Feb 2004, 12:41
for Mike Fang mainly:
1. That broadsword is like a caalcard for garret. Just like Z for Zorro. And have you thought about that if Garret is being made a man who can also fight succesfully (a lot better than T1&2 that is), HOW IN HELL he could manage against hammerites with a lousy dagger??? Dagger is for assassination, not 1on1...and Thief-games are not about assassination. Their mainpurpose was sneaking and thieving as the name says. Killing was not the first and not even the second priority. Blackjack was better than anything....

2. Those gloves. You said that it could make the game easier. That's just the problem. Rope is the tool of a thief and it is hard to use, that's why it needs practise. I understand that on console it is easier to use gloves because of the aiming is difficult but on PC you don't need to practise any longer than 20mins and you can do actually anything you need with the Rope arrow. Imagine how rewarding it is to get somewhere by shooting arrows instead of just go and glimb...glimbing sounds dull and it IS dull when compared to shooting with a bow :)

3. It might make the games too easy if u can just stock weaponry and items. It all depends on how they are able to make the system and the inventorylimits....

4. 3rd person might be good, it's just that 3rd person is not familiar to Thief-players. It's there mainly because for the consoleplayers. There should be a possiblity to disable the 3rd person once and for all. And in other stuff too I hope they make real differences between the PC and XBOX versions because PC is so much different platform and PC-players have a different and more "complicated" taste. Games do not have to be simplified to the limit on PC...

5. The cinematics and movies played a bif role in T1&2 and with the same voice in T3 I really hope there will be really the same or better atmosphere in T3. I hope the same kind of music and ironic words from Garret. The prophecies in the cutscenes are also very important.

I for one, don't need any RPG elements on Thief (doesn't just fit) and the "1 hit kills" should be made just like in the previous games or better. Don't say even a word about autoaiming because it's for consoles, not PC...

In the end it all depends on how the makers have thought about the differences between PC and consoles and how they can make use of those differences. They should also consider what was so good in the previous games and not to leave nothing out ('cos in T1&2 everything was right in my opinion) and plan carefully what to include so that it still would be Thief). And think very hard what went wrong with Deus Ex 2....we Thief fans don't want the same to happen to our long waited saviour :D

yossbob
15th Feb 2004, 13:37
1. That broadsword is like a callcard for garret. Just like Z for Zorro. And have you thought about that if Garret is being made a man who can also fight succesfully (a lot better than T1&2 that is), HOW IN HELL he could manage against hammerites with a lousy dagger??? Dagger is for assassination, not 1on1...and Thief-games are not about assassination. Their mainpurpose was sneaking and thieving as the name says. Killing was not the first and not even the second priority. Blackjack was better than anything....

Your correct, Thief III shouldn't be about assassinations. However, removing the broadsword is a wise move IMO. A broadsword is far too clumsy and unweildy for a master thief such as Garrett. A dagger is perfectly suited for someone as agile and silent as he. Anyway, I never even used the broadsword in Thief I/II.

FrozenNorth
15th Feb 2004, 14:47
Originally posted by yossbob
A dagger is perfectly suited for someone as agile and silent as he. Anyway, I never even used the broadsword in Thief I/II.

Dagger is indeed the tool for a thief but if you are supposed to fight with that thing it's nothing more than a plastic fork against a big meatknife. The main point is just what you stated, that you don't even have to use the sword. If you are in a situation with no way out but killing, then sword is better than knife. If you want to take someone down, use blackjack or a precise shot with a broadhead which draws much much less attention :)

Abelo
15th Feb 2004, 14:47
What I really fear about Thief:DS is the programming of AI

Mr. Spector said AI in DX2 was going to be great, and it really sucked. And since 80% of the fun in the Thief series relies con AI, I'm just fearing they're going to blow the whole game due to a stupid intelligence.

If you were a guard, will you suspect there's a thief around if you heared a rat squeaking?:confused:

FrozenNorth
15th Feb 2004, 14:55
Originally posted by Abelo
What I really fear about Thief:DS is the programming of AI

Mr. Spector said AI in DX2 was going to be great, and it really sucked. And since 80% of the fun in the Thief series relies con AI, I'm just fearing they're going to blow the whole game due to a stupid intelligence.

If you were a guard, will you suspect there's a thief around if you heared a rat squeaking?:confused:

hehe, absolutely right. In Thief 1&2 the difficulty was not that hard if stayed unseen and thought about your moves. Now adays it is a trend to make games difficult by some ridiculously stupid ways, just like those rats. The AI should be reasonable and observe the surroundings and nothing like "i walk in the room and there is a guard slashing me before I even see him and I made no sounds at all"...
It's those f*****g consoles. I don't know about you but I think that PC games (not all) have generally gone much worse since the arrival of consoles :(

thegrommit
15th Feb 2004, 14:55
Originally posted by FrozenNorth
4. 3rd person might be good, it's just that 3rd person is not familiar to Thief-players. It's there mainly because for the consoleplayers. There should be a possiblity to disable the 3rd person once and for all.

Is there a need when using third-person view is supposed to be optional?

On the dagger vs broadsword debate, I'm with yossbob. Thief has never been about combat - unless you count blackjacking as such.

thegrommit
15th Feb 2004, 14:58
Originally posted by FrozenNorth
It's those f*****g consoles. I don't know about you but I think that PC games (not all) have generally gone much worse since the arrival of consoles :(

The Atari 2600 was released in 1977(?). When was the first IBM-PC released again? :p

FrozenNorth
15th Feb 2004, 15:04
Originally posted by thegrommit
The Atari 2600 was released in 1977(?). When was the first IBM-PC released again? :p

Hehe I have no quarrel against Atari and the older consoles and I have a little knowing in them 'cos I wasn't born until 1985 :D
Mainly I meant Playstation 1 and especially PS2 and Xbox

Mike Fang
15th Feb 2004, 15:15
How's Garret going to manage against Hammerites with a "lousy" dagger, you ask? Well quite simple: Garret's not going to just stand there and wait to get his head smashed in. A dagger isn't an inferior weapon to a sword or hammer, just a different one. It's made for quick, deft movements.

So it's feasable, if you think about it, for a guard to come running up with this big honkin' sword or hammer, Garret duck-and-rolls to the side as he swings, the guard gets thrown off balance when he misses, and Garret comes up and slams the dagger into his throat. Or maybe draws it across his throat.

The thing that people are forgetting here is that all fighting styles in games aren't the same. If you try and fight with a knife the same way you do with a sword, yes, you're going to get your butt kicked. But if you dodge and move and wait for the moment to plunge in and make a deadly sting, it'll work out much easier. Also who knows? Maybe the dagger's poisoned.

FrozenNorth
15th Feb 2004, 17:32
Well that WAS something I didn't think about much, but how does that agility fit to Xbox controllers? I believe that kind of thing require multile keys pressed at the sametime or simultaneously and FAST....(not sure 'cos I play quite little with consoles....)

Beagle Boy
15th Feb 2004, 20:47
Thief 3 - Deadly Shadows.

Not a good name for Thief 3. Are you sure it is also for the console. Amazon.com (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-url/index%3Dvideogames%26field-browse%3D468642%26search-type%3Dss%26field-keywords%3DThief%26/qid=1076877433/sr=1-4/ref=sr_1_4_etk-vg_all/103-7700560-6947033) did not say that.

Acronomic
15th Feb 2004, 23:06
It will be for the Xbox as well, cause it says so at the main site. :)

IMO, this game will be truly great. I am a huge fan of the Thief series, and an even bigger one after I saw this game.

The new features and playability are ok by me, as long as there are options that make the game harder for experienced thieves. The thought of turning Thief into an arcade game sickens me, but I just know that they would never do that.

operative x
17th Feb 2004, 00:16
I agree with FrozenNorth, the point of the game is to sneak around and not really kill anyone, but, if you were caught and multiple guards come in, I would like to have a sword to use in situations like this rather then a kitchen knife. And about the rope arrows, WHAT WERE THEY THINKING!!!! I LOVE THE ROPE ARROWS!!!!!! They were so badass to shoot near a balcony, then climb up the rope, jump onto the balcony, i thought that was the coolest thing in the world when i did that! i loved it! I don't know about this game...... i think it will end of like DX:Iw as much as i would like to deny it...

THIEF_AFF
17th Feb 2004, 02:11
K STOP WORRYING ABOUT WEATHER THIEF 3 WILL SUK OR NOT. AFTER THE DEMO COMES AND IF YU FIND IT SUKS THEN EMAIL EIDOS YUR COMPLAINTS UNTLILL YUR FINGERS ARE RAW AND BLOODY (OR START A LETTER RITING CAMPAIN)AND THEY'LL HAVE TO CHANGE THIEF BAK TO ITS OLD BROAD SWORD ROPE ARROW WAYS :)

hagatha
17th Feb 2004, 02:13
I am hoping, really hoping, that this will be a good game. I love Thief - they are my favourite games of all time. But my experience with DE2 was that while it was a reasonably good game, it did not come close to the original. So I have this nasty feeling that my hopes will be dashed. I'm sure it will be fun, and all that, but I suspect it won't "feel" right. Will reserve judgement until I play it, though.

DaTricksta
17th Feb 2004, 05:59
Well, I've read alot of angles on this whole Thief 3 debate.. Many with the position that T3 will somehow fail or fall short of expectations. One because the missions will be too easy/short and Two, there will be disapointments in the arsenal and in the AI... Well I feel that the actual game is a very small part of the Thief experience, I mean I can say for myself that my real gaming started the first time I played a 'Fan Mission'... This is the true heart of Thief gaming and will probably propell T3 into areas that will boggle us once the MIT guys design a DromEd like utility for map making... Oh, and I'm sure a sword or rope arrows could probably be thrown in as well....

www.meshmediaentertainment.com

Woodsie_Lord
17th Feb 2004, 08:23
Alright this is getting just plain silly. Have you all forgotten just how lucky we are that there IS a Thief 3? Neither of the games before ever sold fantastically, and with the death kneel of LGS most of us thought Thief had sunk into the shadows for good.

When I heard Thief 3 was in development, I wasn't skeptical or reactionary, I was overjoyed! Not only that, several members of the original development team were a part of the process. What more could anyone ask?

It wasn't till, say, a few months after last year's E3 that an unsavory strange element began to rise within our ranks. Where has the trust and faith gone in the people who have brought us some of best moments of gaming? Why most me be so militant against any sort of changes to the Thief forumla?

Try not to think so much in terms of what *won't* be in Thief 3, but in what *will* be there; improved graphics, improved A.I., a freeform interface, etc.

I for one am sick and tired of people claiming "I won't buy Thief 3 unless this, this, and this are in it." What the hell? The game isn't your hostage and you're in no position to make demands. If you don't like the game, don't buy it. If you think you might not like some of things they've changed, well why not rent it and find out for yourself?

The game isn't like a tattoo where you're either satisified with it or eternally stuck with it. Give it a chance, and if and when you've played it you decide it's not to your liking then take it back and go about your life.

As for the rest of us, who're just glad that Thief 3 is actually being made (sorry Fallout fans), I'm sure we'll be more than happy with this game. Because even if T3 weren't even half as good as the two previous games (something I doubt), it'd still be above and beyond about 90% of the drek that's coming out nowadays.

K33p3r
17th Feb 2004, 10:01
As Woodsie_Lord said, at leats thier is a thief 3 (sorry it's not thief 3 its "deadly shadows":rolleyes: ) how can you say a game will be bad if you've never played it, never even seen a demo. i mean come on, really if you don't like the game without rope arrows (notably the thing i read that saying that there would be no rope arrows also said that the main bad guys in thief 2 were hammerites, hmmm i think not) you could always add them in with an editor that may or may not come with the game. with that, all problems could be solved, water could be added, you could have your rope arrows back, just don't judge a game before it comes out.

Acronomic
17th Feb 2004, 12:54
Well said, Woodsie_Lord. We should be glad there's a Thef 3.

Why does so many say that it won't be good? Do you hate the game just because there aren't any rope arrows??

And why say that the knife is useless? It's not about that the game isn't meant for assassinations, it's about how you want to play the game.

Tenkahubu
17th Feb 2004, 13:01
Although some people are always pessimistic, I think the failure of DXIW is to blame for most doubts. However, the two games were originally being developed by two distinct teams so hopefully T3 will not be a similar waste of money.
Never the less, I dont think I'll be importing this one...

tore
17th Feb 2004, 13:35
My first post here so bear with me ;)

I think that one of the great things about the previous Thief Games was that in addition to the formal limitations of the game you could add your own criteria. For example make it a goal only to get through a mission without killing or blackjacking a single guard, getting *all* the loot etc.

What I mean to say is that the game will probably be as easy as you want it to be. If battling the guards is too easy in Thief 3, don't battle 'em. If climbing walls makes it too easy, stay grounded. If equipment is too easy to get, buy less.

Just my two cents.

DaTricksta
17th Feb 2004, 18:49
Hello K33...
Thats's exactly what I said.. Didn't anyone read my post?

Secrets Of Nosgoth
17th Feb 2004, 19:06
I need to first say that I think this game will be great. I just read the new pc.ign.com preview of it and have had more doubts removed from my mind.

Next, even if the game isn't as good as we all hope, I think that it will still be better than 90% of what is out there now, just like Deus Ex 2, wasn't great, but still better than a lot of other games. I'll go on a limb and say a bad Thief game will still be a fun game because of what it is initially. It was more of a novelty in Deus Ex which is why it isn't as fun as Thief (when trying to play it with stealth).

As for 3rd Person, I know I won't use it because to me Thief is a FP perspective game. But it probably will still be fun, I loved Splinter Cell and that was a 3rd Person sneaking game.

Then the ropes, that was a fun tool to have, but there were problems with it, and I considered myself skilled at using it, but there were some parts where using it was just plain awkward and climbing a wall would have been much more practical. It isn't like Garret will be able to climb all walls and under all circumstances. But certaintly a good thief would be able to climb stone walls in castles. I think it'll be fun, and I doubt I'll be missing the rope arrows too much.

I can't wait for this game to come out, I'll even play the hell out of the demo. I remember doing that for Thief 1 way back in the day, I had never played anything like it, and since have been itching to play more games like it but nothing has come close to Thief 1 & 2 to capturing the stealth I like except for maybe Splinter Cell. But that is a completely different genre.

coldplay_josh_106
19th Feb 2004, 23:43
At the end of the day i dont think itll matter weather thief 3 will suck, were all still gunna go out and buy it, i know i am!

even if it isnt as good as the first two, itll still be a good game none the less!

BrokenArts
20th Feb 2004, 00:12
I won't pass judgement till I play it, why bother now, the game isn't even finished yet.

I know it will have some good aspects to it, hell I am just glad that there is another thief game........period.

Acronomic
20th Feb 2004, 00:36
Originally posted by BrokenArts
I am just glad that there is another thief game........period.

Yeah, me too... :D

Peter_Smith
20th Feb 2004, 05:57
Will Thief 3 not appeal to real Thief fans?
Yes, I believe so.

What the heck does that mean? :rolleyes: :confused:

Normally, if a question is posed in the negative, a positive response is affirmative.
Wouldn't you like that? (== Would you not like that?)
Yes, I'd like it.

Anyway, I'm with BrokenArts. We need to play it first.

K33p3r
20th Feb 2004, 06:51
DaTricksta, i know its what you siad, i'm just trying to show i agree with what both you and Woodsie_Lord said, sorry if i offended you somehow
:(

Guyver Sho
20th Feb 2004, 17:56
From the sounds of things, the people worrying about the changes in this series are the P.C. owners. And you know what? on the P.C. mods will come out converting the dagger into a sword and bringing back rope arrows. That's a near certainty. - As a side note, did you stop to think that due to the physics in the game, rope arrows might not have worked correctly? -

I think you're getting yourselves worked up, for the most part, over nothing. I know there are lots of complaints about level size as well, but DX:IW was a very different game to thief, needing different requirements for level size and interactivity with the environment. By removing alot if the needless things in DX, much more level space can be opened up.

And as for someone complaining about auto-aiming in games, need I remind you that nearly all FPS games have an auto-aim option that - Now strap yourself in for this - can be switched off.


Sorry, I got a bit carried away. It's just that everyone's complaining without having played the game yet. It's just irritating the hell out of me. If they don't like the sound of the new one, don't buy it.

carmageddonstein
22nd Feb 2004, 20:15
I feel the sudden urge to find out what the friggen heck you people are talking about by playing the original games......

tealsmith
22nd Feb 2004, 20:47
Originally posted by carmageddonstein
I feel the sudden urge to find out what the friggen heck you people are talking about by playing the original games......

A very good idea.

Secrets Of Nosgoth
22nd Feb 2004, 22:23
Heh for no reason I can think of yesterday I was just making food and all of a sudden I felt the urge to play the new Thief game. Unfortunately it isn't out and all I want to do is play it. I want a demo so badly.

I could go back and play the original Thief again, that would be fun, I loved that game to death.

All I know is if the demo of the games contains the word Taff, I'll be pleased in at least one aspect of the game.

maveloch17
23rd Feb 2004, 03:29
Originally posted by Woodsie_Lord
It wasn't till, say, a few months after last year's E3 that an unsavory strange element began to rise within our ranks. Where has the trust and faith gone in the people who have brought us some of best moments of gaming? Why most me be so militant against any sort of changes to the Thief forumla?



Two words: "Episode I".

Waiting for Thief 3 is like waiting for Star Wars Episode I... soooo much anticipation... soooo much let-down. George Doofus sold out Star Wars, now we're all afraid the same will happen to Thief 3.

But hey, what do we "MIT grads" know? Here's what I know: to make a game that the general population will like, it has to be cheesy, boring, unoriginal, crap that a retarded monkey could play. If T3 is anything better than that, I guess we should be thankful :rolleyes:

Anyway, if they really feel the need to nerf this game for the console-ers, I hope they at least provide a "noob mode" for the consoles and an "original Thief mode" for the rest of us. From what people have been saying, it looks like there will be options.


-----------

Now, to all of you saying "Wait till you play it before you complain...": No. We have to b*tch now before it's too late. If we wait till after the beta/demo comes out to make our voices heard, they will not have the time to make many changes to it.


-------------



What I mean to say is that the game will probably be as easy as you want it to be. If battling the guards is too easy in Thief 3, don't battle 'em. If climbing walls makes it too easy, stay grounded. If equipment is too easy to get, buy less.

That's just a HUGE cop-out for good gameplay. Pretending the game is a challenge doesn't make the game a challenge. I mean, why should I even BUY the game? I might as well just walk around in real life, pretending I'm sneaking up on guards. :rolleyes:

-------------

Anyway, let me ask this... does anyone know for sure if they are planning to release a game/world-builder??? A scriptable DromEd type of thing? A world-builder like Morrowind's would be kewl......

Squid
23rd Feb 2004, 05:47
maveloch17, there's a difference inbetween making your opinion heard and b*tching for the sake of b*tching. Yes, your opinion should be heard and it should count. But starting off your complaints with "Thief 3 is gonna blow chunks, and here's why. Someone said they're putting it in SPACE!!!! Man, those &%&^#@* better make it MY WAY or I'm gonna come over to their house and *&#(&( (#&(&$ *&#$^# their sister." is NOT going to do anything but have your opinion tossed out. (Not to mention probably have a police investigation started on you.)

I'm not saying that you were doing it, maveloch17, but several other new members of this forum have. And frankly, they have only hearsay to back themselves up. There's really very little info out there as to what the game is going to be like, and there's a LOT of us who are really looking forward to this game. We all should be very thankful there's a Thief 3 at all. Eidos didn't have to help out Looking Glass Studios as much as they did, nor did they have to buy the rights to Thief so that they could have another studio resurrect the game for us. That's why I want people to play a demo before they go off the deep end with their complaints.

Thoughtful, polite discussion about what we want in the game is welcome. Cussing, rude behavior, and threats aren't welcome at all.

Again, I'm not saying that you were doing it; you were just the person who mentioned not waiting.

And, while I'm thinking about it... besides the fact that it stunk, how the heck could ANY movie live up to 16 years of hype? I mean, really, how could anyone pull that off? Yes, Episode I was horrible, Jar Jar Binks should be removed from film history, and lots of things should have been changed, but even if the film had been absolutely perfect, I don't think there's any way that we couldn't have been disappointed with it.

Squid

maveloch17
23rd Feb 2004, 13:54
Squid...

No, I'm not b*tching pointlessly... and I won't :)


...nor did they have to buy the rights to Thief so that they could have another studio resurrect the game for us.

Let's not kid ourselves here... there is no such thing as a large game publisher that builds games "for us". They build games for money. Period. That's why they are making it for consoles... more money. LGS, as an exception to the rule, obviously cared a lot about this game, and it shows, but they didn't make a whole heaping lot of money off of it (although it didn't sell as badly as some people think). T3 is being made for money.

The point here is that by the time a demo comes out, it may very well be too late to help this game. And no, I'm not saying for sure it will suck... I don't know... I just hope the devs think twice before nerfing the game. Actually, it's not really looking all that bad at this point. :)

And yeah, Episode I had 16 years of hype... but the movie sucked regardless of that. Hype or no hype... the movie was god-awful.

DaTricksta
24th Feb 2004, 04:54
Hey K33 You didn't offend me dude I was trying to squeeze into the conversation, my bad...

But hey as for the bottom line of the thief situation, I've already pre ordered the darn thing... To me $50.00 is a small price to pay for failure (even though I don't believe it will)... I'll tell you all one thing though. All this talk about thief 3 made me reinstall the original Dark Project and download a *****load of Fan Missions from
http://thiefmissions.com/
And really start getting myself psyched up!

Thiefinthenight
25th Feb 2004, 23:52
Some of you taffers need to chill untill we atleast get our hands on a demo.


However as we get closer to the release date and no demo is released I will start to worry. For me that would be a bad sign.

vesselle
28th Feb 2004, 08:26
Originally posted by Mike Fang

With the gloves, it will be much easier to just walk up to a wall, equip the gloves, and start climbing. I'll bet it even makes it easier to climb up a wall when you're in the water, making getting into a mansion by swimming around the moat to the back much easier.



last i heard, due to engine limitations, water is out.

V***V

/EDIT

let me amend that by adding... USABLE water is out. no swimming or diving allowed in the Thief Pool. :(

Secrets Of Nosgoth
1st Mar 2004, 20:05
how can they just take out water and swimming? I guess I don't remember there being water in DXIW. The engine they are using is just awful for what they want to do. Talk about no foresight. It's great at lighting effects and high polygon counts but absolute crap for water and large environments, and probably even small amounts of NPCs like in DXIW.

It's a shame they have to use Thief 3 as a test subject on it because it really deserves much better, and by much better I mean going back to the way it was.

Despite my harshness just now for the game I am still fairly hyped up for it. But I do wish things like this were thought about first..... then again we may all be worrying about nothing and be suprised to see the first demo with lots of NPCs to loot, water to swim in, and huge environments.

If anything can give hope it's that all engines can be modified, hopefully though Thief wasn't too far along when they got the backlash from DXIW that it can't be fixed.

TMH
2nd Mar 2004, 19:32
I don't see how water could be a limitation, unless they don't have the sourcecode to the engine, or they aren't allowed to change something.

Water is achieved by changing the player's movespeed, and letting them move in more directions than usual, but graphically, it could be hard to reproduce, espeically in the way half-life 2 or Delta Force 3 does it.

Design the engine to the game, rather than the game to the engine.

oh, and if you haven't seen it already http://www.thief3.org/

Secrets Of Nosgoth
3rd Mar 2004, 03:33
lol, great link. sums up this forum's view in one sentence nicely heh.

Oh well, as far as I know the deal with water was something just made up by people who don't think this game will be any good. And because it wasn't in DX it can't be done with that engine. Maybe it's based on fact...I don't know.

All we can do is wait, with patience.... like a thief in the shadows. (i know it was corny) :D

AC1Dman
18th Mar 2004, 01:24
Nowadays, I'm too scared of this developer's idea, about "bringing games to wider range of audience". Sure, all of them want to get as much money as they can, but there were A LOT of examples when a new game would be sort of simplified, with plot and gameplay that is so basic you don't have to really worry about. We all have Deus Ex as an example, and there're a lot more (from different genres).
What I hope to get is a game with different ways of completing the level, various things to interact with. I don't want Thief III to be simple, straight-forward, and not only in a sence of plot - I want to make myself think while playing, have simple, limited but useful inventory, different strange clues (not just pieces of paper on the ground, telling where to go). Sort of a 3D quest game (gee.. I miss quest games). In other words, I want all what the previous games had + improved/totally changed game engine and new levels. That's it!
I honestly enjoy being a thief (well, I don't steal [that much] in real life :D), and Thief II & Deus Ex were the only games I had a hope for. Deus Ex didn't have what me and others hoped for, and I .. I just want to believe that Thief III won't suck that much, that it won't be pop. At least, the graphics won't.

And Woodsie Lord is right - it's awesome the game is being developed AT ALL. Although I'll miss the steam robots :).

Good sides - that'd be great to rob some civilians :). I just don't want it to be simple, like a source of easy money or something.
Climb the walls - interesting. Why not? :) Not any wall, I hope, only brick ones.

Nate
18th Mar 2004, 04:28
Damn, I'm a little tired right now and misread the polling question. It's a negative question. Dude might as well have asked "will thief not not not suck". It's purposely misleading. Oh well, if that's what it takes to get negative votes!

calthaer
18th Mar 2004, 05:28
Discussing the merits of the new Thief game without playing a demo and seeing how they all work together as a whole is somewhat pointless. I must admit, however, that I'm fairly disappointed that there won't be any water in which to swim around.

I will, however, jump on the "su><0rz" bandwagon simply because Deus Ex: IW was such a steaming pile. I have little or no confidence now that IS will produce quality games. IW was a buggy, choppy, poorly-optimized Xbox port. If IS continues to churn out crappy console ports for the PC, they won't be getting my money. I'm certainly not going to be buying Thief III at least until I read several reviews, and most likely will wait until the price drops.

It seems as if Warren Spector has given up direct creative control and handed them over to his lesser cronies, and they just slap his name on the box in the hopes that it will sell.

San_John
18th Mar 2004, 09:32
After reading reviews, looking at screenshots and watching an interview with Warren Specter, I'm split between skepticism and hope.

This game could either be awful, or it could be great, it's extremely difficult to tell.
Here's what I think the game will be like:

1. Will it be like Deus Ex IW? In response to this question, I think it appears the artwork, the textures and the atmosphere will be better than DX:IW. The level design, I believe, will be fresher. But what about that difficult to describe "feel" of the game engine. The feel of the Dark Engine, the engine used in T1, T2 and System Shock 2, was perfect. It "felt" as real as any 3D game I've played, certainly more real than other games with superior graphics. If I had to guess, I would say, unfortunately, the feel of Thief: Deadly Shadows will be diminished in comparison with its predecessors.

2. AI. I'm open minded on this one. We'll have to wait and see.
3. Sound. I think it will be exceptional considering that Eric Brosius is doing it.
4. Third Person View: If the game was designed for 3rd person that can only detract from its quality. If 3rd person was tacked on for X-BOX players, then there is hope.

5. Freeform City Area: This sounds excellent in concept and I'm willing to give it a chance. I always wanted to sink my teeth into the City a little more than T1 and T2 allowed. You would go near those taverns and hear people inside but you could never go in. Looks like we'll finally have a chance.
6. Story. The story sounds better than T2's story but I agree with some who say that the title is lame and cliche. Certainly, the story will be better than DX:IW
7. Garrett the Assassin. If you can still sneak and don't have to fight, then there's hope. I liked how the original games made you feel sort of guilty about killing people. If that element is present--if murder is something to be avoided or done only with your back to the wall, then there's hope.
8. Specter's comments: In his defense, let's face it, Specter and everyone at ION Storm is obviously under immense pressure to create commercially viable games. Eidos feels that this means X-BOX. I'm sure if Specter could create the games he wanted they would be more works of art and more experimental than his last three. The problem with experiments is that they sometimes fail. In the PC Gaming world there are only a few companies who can afford to experiment (Blizzard maybe?) and how often do you see them doing it.

Captain Mainwaring
18th Mar 2004, 18:31
Final Update on Thief III:

Warren Spector:
'After all the incessant speculations on Thief III and how bad it's going to be and all that, we've have decided to stop making the game. There'll still be a Thief III, but it will now be a Weebl and Bob cartoon:

Thief III: Deadly Shadows Cutscene Trailer (http://www.weebl.jolt.co.uk/mask.htm)

Whatz His Name
18th Mar 2004, 18:36
Well, now I see why they were so tight lipped about Thief 3. I remember when everyone was complaining that Ion Storm wasn't releasing updates on the development of Thief 3. Once they did, the poop hit the fan.

If or when development of Thief 4 starts, no one will probably hear about it until a week before release. :D

imported_deadly_thief
18th Mar 2004, 18:54
sorry if this has been asked but what did happen to looking glass studios ive only herd rummers

AC1Dman
18th Mar 2004, 20:49
ok, can't wait for the demo :).

Looking Glass - read here: http://www.gamespot.com/pc/action/thief2themetalage/news_2577379.html

Peter_Smith
26th Mar 2004, 07:41
Originally posted by deadly_thief
ive only herd rummers
Last time I checked, those rummers were making sail for Jamaica.:)
Sorry, I couldn't resist.

As for Looking Glass Studios, they went under a few years ago (2000) owing, one suspects, to bad marketing decisions by their sponsors. :( Looking Glass could not make a profit while millions were spent trying to promote Diakatana, and you know where that one went. If you look really hard beyond the Gamespot article, you may find some exposes or at least some more interesting theories. Anyway, Looking Glass seemed like a sacrificial lamb, to me.

Zenic
30th May 2004, 21:50
1. This game is suppost to take the "Im a Fighter" Aspect that thief 2 had, and completely destroy that. A Thief is not ment to take 3 Guards at once, Thief 3 fixes that aspect of Thiefism.
2. Only The City levels take 2 hours+. The Cradle Included in a 2+ hour time.. all the others can easily be completed on Expert in under 45-60 minutes, assuming you dont dilly dally like an idiot studying guards. Learn the usefulness of Gas Granades and Gas Arrows.
3. Thief 3 is as good if not better than the first two games, while the engine and lack of flavor in some area's in disturbing, the actual game itself is a treasure. After 2 or 3 patches and a MOD or 2, this game will probably be more entertaining that Saturday Night Live interviewing Michael Jackson. (Sorry couldn't resist)

Further more, while Thief 3 does have its CON's, like all games it does have its PRO's, and the PRO's in this case greatly outweight the CON's.

Nuff said... a bit late I guess.

naujoks
30th May 2004, 23:57
Can I draw your attention on the sound? Yes, we have a 24 bit sound with all the bells and whistles, but in T1 and T2 one of the scariest things was the subliminal background sound. You would only realise that it's there if you decided to listen for it, but if you did it became clear what an enormously big role it played for th athmosphere. Here, in T3, the sound is much more wishy washy. I compare it to the original Star Trek series: we all remember the sounds and tunes. Anything memorable from Star Trek Next Generation? No? Thought so.
Also, in T1 & T2, the voices sounded utterly believable. Thank goodness some have returned in T3, but many of the new ones have this comical tone, which bothers me a lot.

Majnun
31st May 2004, 01:00
If by "real Thief fans" you mean obstinante morons who can't accept ANY change in their prescious little games. Then yeah some folks will not like it. But most of us sure seem to love it.

And yes, I'm a long time Thief fan (bought both of the other games the day they came out and haven't had a PC without Thief 2 on it since IT came out).

This game does NOT feel like another crappy console port. I so wanted to love Deus Ex IW but it's a total piece of garbage to me. I think Splinter Cell 2 is a good game...but it's a freaking crappy console port (GIANT glowing HUD anybody? and the bright glowing mission objective that flashes at the bottom of the screen when you sit still for 2 seconds? come on.) But Thief - Deadly Shadows doesn't feel like that AT ALL to me.

And it's even better if you use some of the .ini file tweaks that users have ALREADY posted. I'm sure those will be refined and the few things that do annoy people (hud size...which isnt bad as is), body-awareness, damage that guards do to you, and that you do to them, etc ALL of that can be CHANGED BY YOU in the .ini file. But the game is fine as it is.

Who cares if there is a 3rd person view and "wall press". DON'T USE THEM. I haven't used or needed either one in the entire game (except once to see what it was like). Who cares if you can play by fighting the guards? DON'T FIGHT THEM. PLAY IT AS A STEALTH GAME. That's what I'm doing and it's great. Just because you CAN fight the guards doesn't mean it takes away from the stealth game. If you're so stupid and lacking in willpower that just because you CAN attack guards you WILL...then you sir are the one that's defective...not the game. And if you can't help yourself...just tweak the default DAMAGE RATIO that the AI does to you in the .ini file. VOILA, you can make the guards kill you in one hit if you want. So don't be a hammerhead and condemn the game based on things you know NOTHING about obviously.

Oh and you can't throw oil ON guards and set them on fire. It lands on the ground making an oilslick. The morons will run through it sometimes and fall down sliding out the other side. And you can light it on fire with a fire arrow...but once it's on fire they won't go in it.

The only "fault" that comes directly from being developed simultaneously for the x-box & PC is the smaller level sizes. And yes that is a shame. But actually PLAYING them you don't notice it. The missions are great and don't feel too small (to me). Yes Thief 2 sized missions with no load zones (instead of being divided into 2 parts) would've been better. But it's not the end of the world and it hasn't taken away much if anything from the game.

Oh, almost forgot. Yeah...the lack of rope arrows and scouting orbs (especially rope arrows) is a sad loss. The climbing gloves are fun but not really put to good use. But if you let something as small as that "ruin" Thief 3 then I feel sorry for you. Because this is a NEW game. This is NOT Thief 1 or Thief 2. Things change. Suck it up and play this game or don't. I don't care. But this IS a Thief game in every way. It carries the tradition (and feel and story) well.

edited to add some things:

I only read the original poster before and was replying to him.

Other folks brought up some things. The AI is MUCH better than in Thief 2 (on Expert difficulty). The AI awareness is directly tied to difficulty setting. I'd advise only playing on expert. Loot goals are also tied in to difficulty and finding 90% of the loot (on expert) can be a pain sometimes. The optional difficulty things that god coded but aren't functional in the final game would've been nice. I'm sure someone will figure out how to turn them on eventually.

The AI isn't perfec though. I think they give up a little too fast, and don't search long/thouroughly enough when the see loot missing or a door/chest opened, or a friend not at his post. But it's still better than Thief 2...and A LOT better than DX-IW. The stanky HAVOK physics engine (yes it's been greatly improved since DX-IW but it's still crap IMO) causes the guards to sometimes (extremely rare...I've seen it 3 times) get stuck on the environment. Like at the bottom of a ramp or against something that they really oughta be able to go over. But it's pretty rare and not game killing. You could abuse things like that in the old games too. Mr. Spector either lied or was massively delusional about the DX-IW AI but this is much better. It's not as good as what all the previews/interviews had me hoping for...but it's still pretty good on Expert.

I liked the sword in the old games. But the dagger is better, and makes more sense. Mainly because it does make me absolutely NOT want to fight. And you can carry 10 Healing Potions(maybe 15...can't remember...I rarely use them). Healing Potions are what makes fighting an option really. On Expert experimenting with fighting I usually get down to 1/3 or 1/4 health fighting ONE guard.

Swimmable water woulda been nice. Oh well. Not a game killer.

The free-form city areas are OK, but just ok. Fun the first time in each zone. Not as good as they coulda been...but better than it was with no connection between missions in the previous games.

And finally. Yeah, the game isn't as hard as the first 2. It may be partly because I've been playing Thief 2 fan missions like mad up till this came out. So I've been practicing. If you try to play the levels without even knocking anybody out or being seen (some ya can't I don't think) then it's a good challenge though.

Oh, and um. Boy do I feel kinda stupid for typing so much and ranting at some dude who posted over a month ago! I just noticed that. Heh. :)

hagatha
31st May 2004, 02:37
Never mind posting a month later.

The point is that Thief 3 does NOT stink, reek, or let off foul odours of any kind.

In fact, it's pretty darned good. And I was soooo worried.

Arnelos
31st May 2004, 05:42
Originally posted by hagatha
Never mind posting a month later.

The point is that Thief 3 does NOT stink, reek, or let off foul odours of any kind.

In fact, it's pretty darned good. And I was soooo worried.

I'll echo that sentiment.

ringo380
31st May 2004, 08:53
I guarantee that if you're worried about the game feeling consolized, you'll notice that it, in fact, IS consolized. It's a good game, but definately and undeniably consolized.

I just want the goal of the developers to be creating a great game. If they succeed in that, everything else comes with it. It's not a no-name developing studio, it's not a no-name franchise, the awareness is inherently already there. All that's left for them is to make a great game. If they want to put it on the damn consoles, go ahead, but they don't need to think that the game has to be changed in ANY way to accomadate for the "low attention-spans" of the average console user. If it's a great game.. it will ALWAYS sell.

Rant rant rant.. :|

cryptik76
1st Jun 2004, 00:38
Originally posted by ringo380
If they want to put it on the damn consoles, go ahead, but they don't need to think that the game has to be changed in ANY way to accomadate for the "low attention-spans" of the average console user.

Oh please. Not another "PC-only gamer" who looks down his monacle at the unwashed masses of console gamers.

What great PC games did we have last year? Hmm, a bunch of crappy leveling treadmills called MMORPG's? Yet another WWII game exactly like Medal of Honor, which began on consoles? Some more first-person shooters, most of them horrible and unpolished, as well as a plethora of boring RTS's? Oh yes, PC gamers have such discerning tastes. What great console and multi-platform games did we have last year? Jak II, Ratchet & Clank: Going Commando, Viewtiful Joe, Prince of Persia, Beyond Good & Evil, The Legend of Zelda: The Wind Waker. All of these are smart and fun games. Compared to these, the PC had pretty much nothing but crap and unpolished imports. Mistmare, anyone? Budget software like Big Rigs?

Oh yes, the PC gamers are just so much better than console gamers. And the way PC gamers, instead of supporting their favorite franchises with their gaming dollars, decide to b*tch about the game and wait for it to hit the $20 mark while the development team goes under and the publisher writes off any plans for future games like that... that's just classy.

/sarcasm

I'm a PC gamer, like you, but I also play console games. And if it weren't for Thief 3, there would have been no reason for me to upgrade my PC this time. Far Cry? It's nice, but what makes it so much better than your average console shooter? Doom 3? Do you really expect much depth from this?

You can shove your high and mighty attitude about PC gamers and the PC audience. Because for every Rise of Nations, there are about a dozen budget Vietnam shooters and Hooters racing games clogging up the shelves.

cryptik76
1st Jun 2004, 00:40
Sorry, double post... er, triple post. Stupid forum lag.

cryptik76
1st Jun 2004, 00:40
Sorry, double post

r1cht3r
1st Jun 2004, 01:18
1st mission (well, 2nd if you count the tutorial) I was sneaking into lord ember's room to do that thing with the thing that lets you do that other thing (spoliers suck but you know what i'm saying if you've been past this point) .. anyways I saw this archer bouncing, and I thought he was doing jumping jacks and I was like "wow they added some weird crap into this game" and then I realized there was a rat under his feet and he was bouncing up and down on it. wtf. seriously. what the ... :/

U4EA
1st Jun 2004, 03:25
Originally posted by Majnun
Oh, and um. Boy do I feel kinda stupid for typing so much and ranting at some dude who posted over a month ago! I just noticed that. Heh. :)

Regardless, that post is exactly the same way I feel about the whole situation. Absolute gold http://forums.eidosgames.com/images/icons/icon14.gif

ringo380
1st Jun 2004, 09:44
Originally posted by cryptik76
Oh please. Not another "PC-only gamer" who looks down his monacle at the unwashed masses of console gamers.


I used "low attention spans of console gamers" in qoutes because it's obviously what developers are thinking when they do this to cross-platform games. There ARE good cross-platform games (morrowind), but there are plenty of bad ones. I didn't say I looked down on any console gamers, I'm saying alot of the PC developrs who expand to console DO look down on console gamers, apparently.



What great PC games did we have last year? Hmm, a bunch of crappy leveling treadmills called MMORPG's? Yet another WWII game exactly like Medal of Honor, which began on consoles? Some more first-person shooters, most of them horrible and unpolished, as well as a plethora of boring RTS's? Oh yes, PC gamers have such discerning tastes. What great console and multi-platform games did we have last year? Jak II, Ratchet & Clank: Going Commando, Viewtiful Joe, Prince of Persia, Beyond Good & Evil, The Legend of Zelda: The Wind Waker. All of these are smart and fun games. Compared to these, the PC had pretty much nothing but crap and unpolished imports. Mistmare, anyone? Budget software like Big Rigs?

Obviously you're not much of a PC gamer. The only games you're mentioning by name are Mistmare and Big Rigs? :0

Yeah, Call of Duty was based in the same time period as Medal Honor, I don't give a ****, it was a great game. Can't pass it off as a clone. Some fantastic game mods (to already great games) have come out as well, something that won't be done on consoles anytime soon. Battlefield 1942: Desert Combat, Galactic Conquest; the UT series' massive amount of great mods, including Thievery. You also brush off the entire RTS genre as if it's nothing, when in fact it has some of the best 2003 games. Warcraft 3, C&C: Generals, Homeworld 2, and Rise of Nations. You didn't even mention any of the RPG's that came out, like Gothic 2, and KOTOR (which was also a console port, and despite its linearity, still did not feel consolized, so it goes in the list of good cross-platform games). ****, even some of the "treadmill" MMORPG's were really damn good. Final Fantasy XI, SW:G, Planetside.



Oh yes, the PC gamers are just so much better than console gamers. And the way PC gamers, instead of supporting their favorite franchises with their gaming dollars, decide to b*tch about the game and wait for it to hit the $20 mark while the development team goes under and the publisher writes off any plans for future games like that... that's just classy.

/sarcasm


Hell, at least PC developers get better feedback than console developers, which would be just about none. I'm just going to ignore the "wait for it to hit $20" thing, doesn't apply to even close to the majority of PC gamers.



I'm a PC gamer, like you, but I also play console games. And if it weren't for Thief 3, there would have been no reason for me to upgrade my PC this time. Far Cry? It's nice, but what makes it so much better than your average console shooter? Doom 3? Do you really expect much depth from this?


You might want to play them before you attempt to bash them. Far Cry's getting insanely good reviews and comments. I've yet to play it, I can't comment on it, and I definately can't bash it. There are a ****load of anticipated 2004 releases coming up, and I'm not going to go through and list them again. They're easy to look up on google.



You can shove your high and mighty attitude about PC gamers and the PC audience.

Seems to me that I'm getting more "high and mighty about console gamers" from this post than I ever put into my first post about being a PC gamer.


Because for every Rise of Nations,

You forgot, that one was released in 2003, too.



there are about a dozen budget Vietnam shooters and Hooters racing games clogging up the shelves.

That takes up about 10% of any PC Game shelf I've ever seen. You're looking in the wrong stores man. From my years as a console gamer, I remember seeing a hell of alot more than that percentage of ****ty console games on the shelves.

- editted for crappy vB code bugs.

VoidHawk
1st Jun 2004, 10:18
Originally posted by cryptik76
Oh please. Not another "PC-only gamer" who looks down his monacle at the unwashed masses of console gamers.

What great PC games did we have last year? Hmm, a bunch of crappy leveling treadmills called MMORPG's? Yet another WWII game exactly like Medal of Honor, which began on consoles? Some more first-person shooters, most of them horrible and unpolished, as well as a plethora of boring RTS's? Oh yes, PC gamers have such discerning tastes. What great console and multi-platform games did we have last year? Jak II, Ratchet & Clank: Going Commando, Viewtiful Joe, Prince of Persia, Beyond Good & Evil, The Legend of Zelda: The Wind Waker. All of these are smart and fun games. Compared to these, the PC had pretty much nothing but crap and unpolished imports. Mistmare, anyone? Budget software like Big Rigs?

Oh yes, the PC gamers are just so much better than console gamers. And the way PC gamers, instead of supporting their favorite franchises with their gaming dollars, decide to b*tch about the game and wait for it to hit the $20 mark while the development team goes under and the publisher writes off any plans for future games like that... that's just classy.

/sarcasm


Well not to say that the glorified toasters which are the PS2 and the XBox are without their uses, Doorstop anyone, cross platform development is the reason PC games have gone so drastically down hill.

The PC should stick to what its got the processing power to do, Flight Sims, Racing Sims, RTS. Also RPG's were the mainstay of the PC games market many years ago.

Driving games have gone down hill drastically with Codemasters making cross platform games and EA actually attempting to make PS2 and PC users race each other. In NFS:Underground you can always spot the PS2 user, he lags like hell.

Thief and Morrowind have been 2 great fantasy genre games lately, but with development cycles running into years for games, more time added for cross platform development is a waste to most PC users who just want the games to come out.

Choscura
1st Jun 2004, 10:44
i think i can see what all the fuss here is about, and i'm quite pissed that the issue ever had to be created in the first place.

what issue is that, you ask? i'll tell you. the console-izing of potentially cool games that entirely wrecks their value for anyone with the patience for a good, deep experience in a game. i'm not saying that consoles are evil- the opposite is true, for the newer ones anyway (i hate ps2, but thats another issue for another day). the problem, as i see it, is that society as a whole doesn't have a mature enough attitude about gaming, games, or gamers in general. they think that everything where you can interract is 'just for kids'. you hear it nearly every day- 'relax, its just a game'. to us? it isn't, its a way of escaping. other hobbies (i call it a hobby for a reason. compare it to modelling/drawing/rc cars... whatever. you invest time and hopefully enjoy the outcome) had their kicks and struggles when they first came out anyone remember DnD? and the book burnings sponsored against it? that being said, i think its about time we go into the root of the problem.

the esrb ratings are/can be a good tool- especially for developers, IF they know to pay attention to them. it seems that (recently, if not always) such ratings are being ignored as a tool to target a specific audience.

what does that mean for us? it means that a game with a mature rating- which nobody under the age of seventeen (or eighteen in some states) can buy, is being made for ten and twelve year olds. the 'expanding the target audience' immediately negates much of the value it had for its specific (and in this case, legal) audience.

and don't think this is just thief. i'm not going to beat on it anymore until i've finished it.

look at ghost recon two. a tom clancy classic... potentially botched, and in my oppinion, likely to be botched.. since when are tactical shooters supposed to be in 3rd person? why should a known and effective system be exchanged for another system? don't get me wrong- change isn't bad, but change without thought and without benefit IS. we'll see if it was worth it or not. oh, and before i forget, you're locked to one character: no more switching around to get the job done. again, this is my oppinion, but it seems to be ripping of SOCOM navy seals- a game that ripped off GR in the first place.

for now, though, i think we can all be a bit grateful that the consoles have advanced as far as they have. at least they aren't still back in the stone age, making the console-ized thief a side scroller.

-Choscura

Majnun
1st Jun 2004, 12:27
I have a feeling most of the great PC games coming out in the near (maybe far...who knows) future will be made by foreign (as in eastern european and russian mainly) developers and/or small developers. The folks who fund their own PC games and make them how THEY want and THEN find a publisher...or even better use STEAM or some other form of online distribution completely bypassing the ugly, greedy, stupid (for the most part) publishers.

They don't seem to be as bedazzled by the easier (potential) money that comes from developing for a console (or simultaneous development...which more often than not screws both PC and console users). That easier money is mostly due to the guaranteed sales to video/game rental places...but that's irrelevant.

Some examples coming soon that I can think of are STALKER, Xenus and The Fall. Call of Cthulhu too but since finding a big publisher (Bethesda) and starting to develop for x-box as well as just PC I'm kinda worried about it (it is Bethesda though and Morrowind turned out ok).

Anyway, pure PC games will be a rare thing from developers in North American and the UK I think. Half Life 2 & Doom 3 will be fine I'm sure, since those teams actually respect their fans somewhat. But they're a rare breed.

Edited to agree with Choscura, at least x-boxes aren't total pieces of crap. Once x-box next comes out the cross-platform thing will hopefully not be ass limiting. Of course 3 years from now the best PC hardware will make x-box next look primitive, but oh well.

Arnelos
1st Jun 2004, 14:23
I hate PC versus console games/gamers debates.

For the sake of entering my two cents, however, I'll making the following observation:

I think the primary reason why console games are "dumbed down" is that is how the industry views console players. The same company will produce a massively complex game for the PC and then dumb it down for the console or dumb it down so it can be on both the console and the PC. It relfects far more on their view of console gamers than it does the reality of the console audience.

With the console audience being larger than the PC audience these days, that's where the money is - so companies are pressured to make games for that audience or at least ports of PC games for that audience. With the prevailing understanding seeming to be that games need to be "dumbed down" for console gamers, it should be little surprise that even many PC games developed simultaneously for console feel dumbed down.

What needs to happen is that you need more companies to have the gumption to sell massively complex games on both console and PC and watch their sales go through the roof, breaking the paradigm that console games need to be "dumbed down"... because they don't. Obviously, the memory constraints of most consoles are somewhat of a problem with this (as evidenced by the level sizes in TDS despite the game otherwise being PC game-level complex), but they can still do what is possible, as I think was done with TDS.

Now I'm a PC gamer - I've never even owned a console. That said, I easily appreciate that console gamers a good deal more capable gamers and desiring of larger and more complex games than the industry thinks they are. Rather than dumbing down PC games so they can sell in the larger console market, more companies need to have the courage to sell PC games the way they should be and then sell them on the console with as much of their complexity and massive size retained as possible - and watch them still sell big.

Thiefinthenight
8th Jun 2004, 18:52
Theres no real replay value with this game as in the originals. Hopefully if the editor gets released modders will create some missions that are a little more open ended and challenging.

Kaspre
8th Jun 2004, 20:08
I've posted this elsewhere, but it is important that everyone is aware:

THERE IS NO BANNER-SLASHING IN THIEF 3!!!11

Don't buy this game! You could slash banners in T1/T2 but you can't in T3!! What kind of crap is that?? I don't know how they could release a game with this kind of console-ized behavior.

Personally, I've stopped playing the game until they release a patch that enables banner-slashing. Boycott!!


Yeah .. Well, I guess other than that it was pretty good. But don't tell any of the other trolls I said so. Hey, is this thing still recording?! Turn it off!!

Degineth
15th Jun 2004, 07:57
BUT it doesnt suck!!! :)

now that came out of the shadows we can see clearly see that T3 doesnt suck at all, actually it's an excelent game, a perfect adition to the series i'd say.

Degineth
15th Jun 2004, 07:59
BUT it doesnt suck!!! :)

now that came out of the shadows we can see clearly see that T3 doesnt suck at all, actually it's an excelent game, a perfect adition to the series i'd say.

Degineth
15th Jun 2004, 07:59
BUT it doesnt suck!!! :)

now that came out of the shadows we can see clearly see that T3 doesnt suck at all, actually it's an excelent game, a perfect adition to the series i'd say.

maveloch17
15th Jun 2004, 22:27
Do you think you could post that 20 more times? I don't think anyone heard you.

:rolleyes:

DarkTimes
16th Jun 2004, 02:29
He will also be able to throw oil on them and set them afire.

There is simply no way that a game that featured this could suck.