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Zephon
14th Feb 2004, 10:18
In lokd he had all abilities except dumah & rahab.

also in SR1 intro Raz said that their evolution would follow kain's, so, kain should have been able to swim before rahab, but he can't, why?

Kain_of_Nosgoth
14th Feb 2004, 11:23
In the intro to Soul Reaver, Kain had already hit the proverbial glass cieling as far as his evolution was concerned. Overcoming water's acidic touch was Rahab's "dark gift", as flight had been Raziel's.

Jeffers
14th Feb 2004, 13:00
It was said in SR1 that they normally evolve sometime after the master, aka Kain and that Raziel had surpassed the master. So you don't know if Kain evolved anymore or not.

Jeffers

Kain_of_Nosgoth
14th Feb 2004, 13:05
Actually, Raziel makes it clear that he had "surpassed his lord" therefore implying that Kain had not, and would not evolve any further. Also, during the time between Raziel's execution and ressurection Kain hadn't changed at all while the other five had changed dramatically.

LOKFan
14th Feb 2004, 14:05
It was never said that Kain gains the abilities that his lieutenants did. All the SR intro said was that Kain would evolve, then Raziel, then Turel, then Dumah etc.

JJheadcharge
14th Feb 2004, 17:28
but if his lietenants were supposed to surpass kain like raziel did because of the dark gift, then why is it that kain can climb walls? that was supposed to be reserved for zephon as his dark gift. i think that kain should have evolved more. if he can withstand sunlight he should be able to swim.

WraithStar
14th Feb 2004, 18:35
Maybe they just wanted to reserve that ability for the next game:D (We can hope, can't we?)

Raptor666
14th Feb 2004, 19:13
Would be nice to see Kain having the movement flexibility of both Raziel and Kain (swimming and the ability to pass through bars without changing realms would be great :D). I would think it's a plausable storyline for the next game that with Kain having his soul restored by Raziel, he would also recieve the gifts Raziel got from each of his brothers

Jeffers
14th Feb 2004, 22:41
Yes, but nearly all of the vampires had similar weaknesses.

Nearly all of them, apart from Rahab couldn't go in water, all fledgings could be killed be exposing them to sunlight. The only reason Raziel could swim is because of Rahab so depends on how Kain evolved, if he evolved. His telekenisis abilites could have grown/improved for example.

Jeffers

Apocrypha Roxy
15th Feb 2004, 02:18
Kain no longer physically evolved, but rather in mental and telekinetic ability.
Rahab didn't technically 'evolve' to survive water, he de-evolved. Water just wasn't a problem anymore. Zephon devolved, but his brethren became more 'skilled' than other clans could. Melchiah's kids were... worthless. :p So were Dumah's. (Running around in circles? C'mon!) Turel's children had advanced TK. Doesn't mean Kain doesn't have it.

In SR2, in Nosgoth's future outside Janos' Aerie, you see Kain and Raziel speaking at that balcony, and the rain is hitting Kain's head, and it's not bothering him. He's not vulnerable to water in the sense that fledglings are.

So Kain probably has -some- resistance to water, can climb (who said he couldn't climb?), has advanced TK (although I think he passed that to Turel, not the other way around), etc. He just didn't get flight. Because he's not supposed to. It was a sign to toss Raz in to set prophecy in motion and all that jazz. Heck, Raziel wasn't even supposed to fly! I don't think he'd opened his wings before the incident at the Sanctuary of the Clans...

Lozza Mate
15th Feb 2004, 09:10
I don't think climbing walls is really much of an ability. given than all of the vampires had claws/hooves it's not exactly a special ability.

you don't need magic to climb a wall when you have razor sharp claws and enough strength to break the wall's surface.

Kain's Right-Hand Man
15th Feb 2004, 11:43
if he can withstand sunlight he should be able to swim. When was it ever said or implyed that Kain could withstand sunlight?Did I miss something? :confused:

van_HellSing PL
15th Feb 2004, 11:47
Kain could withstadn sunlight from the very beginning of BO1. Sunlight only made him weaker. For the most part of Defiance Kain is runnin around freely during the day.

Kain's Right-Hand Man
15th Feb 2004, 11:52
I noticed Kain ran around in broad daylight in Defiance.I was just wondering how for long did he have and how did he gets this ability.Thanks for telling me he has had it since BO1 though. :)

The Warrior Servant
17th Feb 2004, 04:26
Originally posted by Apocrypha Roxy

In SR2, in Nosgoth's future outside Janos' Aerie, you see Kain and Raziel speaking at that balcony, and the rain is hitting Kain's head, and it's not bothering him. He's not vulnerable to water in the sense that fledglings are.



The explanation for this is that originally Kain was vulnerable to rain however as he traveled through the land of Nosgoth in BO1 he came across Blood Fountains which would enhanced him. These fountains increased his strength, accelerated his magical energy recharge, and gave him resistance to both rain and eventually snow.

Further expansion:
In BO2 Kain mentions that the "Dark Gifts" manifest themselves differently in each vampire, hence you would not expect Kain to have every ability of the vampires

DarkWraith
17th Feb 2004, 11:04
Raziel didn't surpass Kain, he just had the 'audacity' to evolve before him. I don't think it is possible for any of Kains Lieutenants to supass him since their Vampiric abilities are part of kain. i.e. his soul. Kain doesn't have to worry about flight anyway. The guy can turn into a swarm of bats of gods sake.

DW

moose562
17th Feb 2004, 16:29
i'd love to see wolf form back as well as all the nasty moves from BO1. I nearly had a fit to see inspire hate back in the fold again!

I would love to see things like Flay back and what about maybe (not fighting with them but just recognising them in a dialogue sequence) havoc and malice?!

*sigh*

Apocrypha Roxy
17th Feb 2004, 17:21
Originally posted by The Warrior Servant
The explanation for this is that originally Kain was vulnerable to rain however as he traveled through the land of Nosgoth in BO1 he came across Blood Fountains which would enhanced him. These fountains increased his strength, accelerated his magical energy recharge, and gave him resistance to both rain and eventually snow.

I know, I've played BO1 before. ;) And I'm replaying it. Or at least I was :rolleyes: , until my room entered the process of repainting, reflooring, etc. Now it's back up, save for Universal Cable being installed today between 9 and 1. And it's almost 12:30... hmm. :confused:
Anyway he's an ancient vampire, and he's developed immunity to rain and snow through the years, even after supping from those Fountains. Who knows if Vorador drank from those fountains, and yet he lives (or, rather, lived) in a swamp with rain and the like. And he's really, really old! He's likely to have developed immunity to rain.


Originally posted by The Warrior Servant
Further expansion:
In BO2 Kain mentions that the "Dark Gifts" manifest themselves differently in each vampire, hence you would not expect Kain to have every ability of the vampires

True. They manifest differently, but some attributes are the same. They can all teleport; but some faster than others. They all have 'some' sense of telekinetic power; but some are more adept. They all can climb (even humans can climb); but Zephonim are skilled, quick climbers and can hang upside down on a wall.

garbagefanuk
17th Feb 2004, 18:29
The vampires are all different as it's been said, Melchiah's clan evolved/devolved to dig underground. Kain never evolved that, Zephon's evolved/devolved to be spider like and so on.

But as vampires mature they become stronger and more resistant, not totally resistant of course. It's only the younger vampires who are affected by sunlight and rain.

wobbles
17th Feb 2004, 23:31
In blood omen one kain could walk on water with the mist spell and he could walk through it but it hurt him, why not in defiance??

wobbles
17th Feb 2004, 23:35
Originally posted by wobbles
In blood omen one kain could walk on water with the mist spell and he could walk through it but it hurt him, why not in defiance??

mist form I mean

van_HellSing PL
17th Feb 2004, 23:36
wobbles, dude, this thread is all about it :rolleyes:...

WraithStar
17th Feb 2004, 23:38
There's probably a real explanation, like with his evolution he might lose some old abilities, but the gameplay would be totally different if Kain could go on water. They probably didn't think it would be as fun to play if water didn't present a challenge.

JJheadcharge
17th Feb 2004, 23:47
maybe my post on how climbing was supposed to be reserved for zephonim was taken in the wrong sense. because in sr1, you needed to devour zephons soul to climb certain obstacles that were seemingly easy, and should be easily overcome by most vampires. yet since this is a video game, they had to leave some limits in. but in actuality, raziel, kain, and most other vamps could easily climb obstacles like in the games very easily. but with the devouring of zephons soul, he would be able to do really tricky climbing, unique to zephonim. but like i said, its a game and that would make it too easy. like others said, every clansmen got a unique ability, and kain couldnt gain that ability in great strength because that section of his soul was given to his sons. but that doesnt mean he loses each ability completely. he has some tolerance to water, can climb certain obstacles, has tolerance to sunlight, can phase through obstacles, and has tk power. but the tk power he can strengthen through mental practice so that doesnt really count. but a good example in defiance of how to compare a normal vamps climbing ability to zephons unique ability and thus raziels ability, is how kain takes his time climbing walls while raziel dashes right up. so in actuality, zephons ability and raziels gained ability is still"special" and "unique".its just a matter of how kains abilities were lost due to his gift to his sons. he will never be able to gain back those abilities in strenght unless he himself devoured his sons souls.

wobbles
18th Feb 2004, 13:38
Originally posted by van_HellSing PL
wobbles, dude, this thread is all about it :rolleyes:...

Aye but nobody mensioned the mist form :rolleyes:

garbagefanuk
18th Feb 2004, 18:44
He can cross water while he's in mist form because he's not walking through the water. He's floating over it.

wobbles
19th Feb 2004, 01:22
okay so why cant he float over it in deviance? thats my point:D

Jeffers
19th Feb 2004, 14:06
He lost that ability in BO2 apparently. Don't forget that. The ability he had in BO2 was that he could hide in Mist. Water was hazerdous to him in BO2.

Jeffers

wobbles
19th Feb 2004, 16:35
Oh, damn shame though

van_HellSing PL
19th Feb 2004, 17:08
Hmm, if that's it, then Defiance Kain should be weaker than SR1/SR2 Kain! Also, if I'm correct, it should at least to some degree affect his lieutenants... :confused:

wobbles
19th Feb 2004, 17:18
but do his lieutenants not evolve more (raziel) than he does?

The Angel of Death
20th Feb 2004, 12:02
kain carnt swim cause he dosent has rahabs abilty & rahab got the abilty 2 swim but he tolerance 2 sunlight decreased dradmaticly

Bio Denton
20th Feb 2004, 13:45
Originally posted by Jeffers
Yes, but nearly all of the vampires had similar weaknesses.

Nearly all of them, apart from Rahab couldn't go in water, all fledgings could be killed be exposing them to sunlight. The only reason Raziel could swim is because of Rahab so depends on how Kain evolved, if he evolved. His telekenisis abilites could have grown/improved for example.

Jeffers

Raziel can swim because he isn't a vampire.

Jeffers
20th Feb 2004, 13:47
Raziel can swim because he devoured Rahabs Soul. In Soul Reaver the touch of water sent Raziel back into the spirit realm untill that point in the game.

Jeffers

The Angel of Death
22nd Feb 2004, 12:26
Originally posted by Bio Denton
Raziel can swim because he isn't a vampire.

what made u say that he was a sarafan reserected as a vampire by kain

Omni_Sephiroth
22nd Feb 2004, 12:44
Originally posted by The Angel of Death
what made u say that he was a sarafan reserected as a vampire by kain
You were both wrong and Jeffers was right Raziel can swim because he devoured Rahabs soul and he is not a vampire he is a wraith/goul try listening more to the elder god in soul reaver 1 ;)