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HOC
14th Feb 2004, 05:22
just wondering how much of you all are happy with what's been previewed on T: DS so far.

me, i'm glad there are some additions to the game. at first i thought the 3rd person view would suck, but now i can see it working because of the dynamic lighting element. the wall climbing gloves i'm 50/50 on. but the cream of the crop to me seems to be the free-roam looting addition that's mentioned.

given some of the changes though, i'm kinda skeptical. but i'm willing to wait for the demo before (and if) i blow a lid.

thegrommit
14th Feb 2004, 05:29
After the fiasco that was Black and White, pre-release hype never sells a game to me anymore.

It'll all depend on the demo.

Psi Yamaneko
14th Feb 2004, 07:10
Previews are almost always positive. I'm standing on the sidelines on this game; squatting in the shadows and watching, waiting, and laughing it up. Such is the tendancy of the college-aged gamers where I come from.

~Lurker Psi
((I'll be watching the action from over there. . .))

Fafnir13
14th Feb 2004, 20:11
the preview I've read mostly send me into a quivering mass of worry. Mabye if I cared about the Thief series less, I'd think it was all well and good, but Deus Ex sucked so much, and now those same people have their hands on my precious Thief games? worryworryworryworry

Kerghan
14th Feb 2004, 21:46
The first Deus Ex was just fine, and it was not supposed to be focused on stealth gameplay...but a more varied style. DX:IW, however, had no stealth except with the help of 'biomods', which I don't really consider stealth. The previews make it sound alright to me. They are actually trying to add things to the game, which is good as long as they don't mess up. With DX:IW, however, they took gameplay elements out for a less varied style of gameplay. Basically, you could get through the game with quake 3 style blasting, and if you ran out of ammo, you could just run up to enemies and wack them with a modded melee weapon. Important items were everywhere in the gaming world. To cap it all off, it was a short game. So, while the previews do add to my enthusiasm, the fact that DX:IW was made created by the same company that's making T:DS worries me.

Mr. Perfect
14th Feb 2004, 23:03
http://www.stockton.edu/~stk21295/HobbesThief3.jpg

It's a diffrent team of developers making Thief 3, folks. Lets wait on the demo before we crucify it.:)

Huntress
14th Feb 2004, 23:57
Mr. P. I also have serious misgivings due to the cross-platforming of these two games. In theory they are two different teams but under the same leader and producer with the sole idea of making it/them as mainstream as possible. Yes T3 is different but at the same time has/had many similarities with each other. Both O.M.'s can be played with much stealth but of course I guess you could say Thief was a bit more inclined in that style. However, Warren and crew didn't think enough ppl used certain elements that were in the first DE, but I sure as heck did! Granted he/they said they learned some lessons from DE:IW and made certain adjustments for T3, OK....but they are still going to be programming for the Xbox too and have coding for both into the same engine...doesn't that raise your eyebrow a bit? Sure we have to wait for the demo to get the final feel but there were many indications what they were doing to DE:IW and I find many similar indications about T3 tied to console programming, etc. They also said they were making two seperate games for DE:IW also in the beginning but it didn't really turn out that way did it? :( So forgive us if we're not entirely sold on the concept of how T3 will be played as compared to the manner of the first two. :rolleyes:

Still waiting for the chance to play DII/Exp with ya though :) Ta and Good Hunting!

Mr. Perfect
15th Feb 2004, 00:42
Don't get me wrong, I'm also worried about Theif 3. However there are a number of good signs. For example, leaning is back in and a review posted somewhere around here said that Thief 3 played smoothly with a solid frame rate. I just find it a little frustrating when every new member to the boards says something along the lines of "DE:IW sucks so Thief 3 will suck."

BTW, what leve is your Barb up to now? I've got ta know how far to level my new wearbear druid. :D

Wynne
15th Feb 2004, 01:04
Same freaking out about Xbox before Morrowind came out. :rolleyes:

Its predecessor, Daggerfall, a PC game, was huge, but random and samey, with weak character interaction and old graphics. It was also buggy. Great in ways, and much-beloved, with some great books, and some things we couldn't help but love. There was concern about whether the sequel would carry what we loved.

Morrowind, made for PC AND Xbox alike, was less huge, and therefore more detailed, non-random, with decent character interaction and gorgeous graphics. Very few bugs. And the addition of a toolset for PC only, as well as two PC expansions which were later ported to the Xbox. It was also unbelievably faithful to the previous two games, with rich lore.

If you wanted to just run around and kill things, you could. If you wanted to fulfill the main quest, you could do that, too. There was an unbelievable richness to Morrowind if you wanted to see it, but those who wished to kill, kill, kill were also supported. You know what? I wouldn't be surprised if that trend was what WS is following, with this comment made on the video Gamespot interview:


The Thief world is so rich and so unique, it's unlike any other fantasy setting in any form of entertainment that I know of. It's this kind of weird... I don't know, Renaissance-meets-Victorian, it's not even really medieval, and it's got all these factions that you can interact with and stuff. And there's a richness that, if people want to explore it, it's there for them. But, a lot of people just want to get on with it, you know, let me just get on with it, let me just round around and be a thief. And so we tried to accomodate those players as well, and a lot of the fiction and the backstory is contained in books and scrolls and in overheard conversations, but if you want you really can kinda just blast past.

Why should I begrudge people wanting to simply hide and kill, hide and kill, take shiny things and kill some more? I wouldn't, unless it meant there was no content for me to explore if I want to. And it definitely sounds as though there IS content. The goal: Please everyone. It surely worked for Morrowind.

Look, the Xbox, way I hear it, is one of the better consoles out there, closer to the PC in design. It is NOT a death sentence for a game to be made for both platforms.

As to free-form thieving being balanced... think about it for a moment. If you spend too much money on one item, what happens if you need something else you haven't bought to fulfill a particular mission? Not knowing what the missions are like, at least the first play-through should be balanced inherently. As to invisibility potions, they haven't been mentioned. They may not even be in for terms of game balance.

Psi Yamaneko
15th Feb 2004, 03:09
I'm gonna give T3 a chance.

It will probably be shorter but it might not be bad.

Bare in mind that the gaming industry is not a walk in the park. It is incredibly unstable so it is often necessary to appeal to the masses. They still have some LGers on board remember?

Try to be optomistic. :3 There is naught that we can do about it anynoodle.

sorgoth
15th Feb 2004, 12:01
Originally posted by Wynne
Same freaking out about Xbox before Morrowind came out. :rolleyes:

Morrowind, made for PC AND Xbox alike, was less huge, and therefore more detailed, non-random, with decent character interaction and gorgeous graphics. Very few bugs. And the addition of a toolset for PC only, as well as two PC expansions which were later ported to the Xbox. It was also unbelievably faithful to the previous two games, with rich lore.

Wrong, Morrowind was made for the PC only, then ported to the X-box later on.

Thief is being made for both platforms at the same time. Thats why we are getting crap like blue shadows IMO. Cant have kids who play in their living room on their dads TV set in the afternoon unable to see what they are doing. Have to add cool things like setting fire to gaurds so kids can watch people burn to death in the name of fun and coolness. Need stuff like climbing gloves cause they are cool. Also need to make the game more of an action-adventure, for all those lil kids. Cant make lil kids use their brain too much, they might hurt themselves.

T:DS is being made for kids and their TV sets, not twenty+ year olds and their high end, three grand computers.

I'm not happy about the way any games are going these days not just thief. Seems like the golden days are over and I'm sick of buying pure crap made for the brain-dead masses.

But anyway I'll buy this game no matter what, just because its called thief. I'll wait till its on my shelf collecting dust before I go ape *****!

I'm worried about this game I'll admit after reading these boards and a few others. But you people are making things worse. If you keep on like this you will make your fears come true. Some of you sound like you almost want this game to suck so you can buy it and say "I told you so".

Wynne
15th Feb 2004, 14:27
Dude... climbing gloves have basically the same function as rope arrows; it just restricts things in different ways. And blue shadows? What are you talking about, have you even seen the latest screenshots? They look like shadows. Sometimes there is moonlight and they're bluish. Sometimes there's not and they're black. Sometimes there's gold-orange light from torches and such. It's not crap. It's varied and appropriate. Walk outside some night--moonlight looks blue. The lighting color is based on realism.

And not all console users are stupid, believe it or not. There have also been some very stupid, crappy games made for the PC, too.

But thank you for not being insane, because there are a lot of people who are freaking out over nada. At least you have some basis, though I disagree with the foundation.

sorgoth
15th Feb 2004, 15:33
And blue shadows? What are you talking about, have you even seen the latest screenshots? They look like shadows. Sometimes there is moonlight and they're bluish. Sometimes there's not and they're black. Sometimes there's gold-orange light from torches and such. It's not crap. It's varied and appropriate. Walk outside some night--moonlight looks blue. The lighting color is based on realism.

I've looked at the screen shots and no its not even close to how dark thief 1 & 2 was.
Moon light aint blue'ish. Where I come from moon light is white or yellow when the moon is big in the sky.
Yes the lights are fine.

If you read up a little and not just go by screenshots you will find out that shadows are blue instead of black for this game.


Dude... climbing gloves have basically the same function as rope arrows; it just restricts things in different ways.

Climbing gloves might be good, but I wont be happy if they are replacing the rope arrow with them. But I'm not going into that because I dont even know if this is true or not.


And not all console users are stupid, believe it or not. There have also been some very stupid, crappy games made for the PC, too.

Thats one of my points. Many games coming out these days are simple, easy to use, understand and require little thought to progress. Its like sitting down to watch a soap on TV when you play it.

HOC
15th Feb 2004, 15:47
actually, if ya replay thief 1 & 2, turn up the brightness a bit, you'll see that there are some blue shadows in those games as well. so i really don't see why the griping is abundant.

FrozenNorth
15th Feb 2004, 17:27
Originally posted by HOC
actually, if ya replay thief 1 & 2, turn up the brightness a bit, you'll see that there are some blue shadows in those games as well. so i really don't see why the griping is abundant.

In thief1&2 the shadows were black or really dark by default and could be made less dark only by tweaking the brightness. What I have understood, the shadows in T3 are being made darkblue by default. Hope that one can adjust it...and it's true, when you were outside in T1&2 the shadows were not completely black (almost:)), but in inside they were black and the game had a nice dark outfit also. No need to see the "fine, beautiful" textures at the cost of gaming atmosphere IMO

sorgoth
15th Feb 2004, 23:34
Originally posted by FrozenNorth
the shadows in T3 are being made darkblue by default.

Going by what I've see in the screen shots: That is not dark blue. If thats dark blue then I need a new set of eyeballs.

It looks more like some kind of blue light or mist, it sure dont look dark.

I guess they could be turning the brightness up just for the screenshots.

Wynne
16th Feb 2004, 00:28
Originally posted by sorgoth
If you read up a little and not just go by screenshots you will find out that shadows are blue instead of black for this game.


Agghh... screenshots are shots of the actual game, okay? They matter! They matter more than someone telling you months ago, or a video seeming to show months ago, that the shadows were blue. The screenshots are taken from recent versions of the game. And thank goodness the brightness is turned up; it'd have to be for one to see anything.

And I have read up more than a little. I've read tons of articles, both old and recent.

http://www.thief3.com/screenshots/01.html

There is blue light. And where I come from, moonlight has a soft bluish tint. I have actually stood under the moon, looked at the snow, and marveled at how blue it looked at certain times of night. This is a fantasy universe, so why not accentuate it a little where it's appropriate?

Down the hall in that screenshot, though, is the only blue spot. Down the hall, streaming through the window. Look where Garrett is. It's a black or at least grey shadow. It looks natural and real. So do the shadows in ALL the other screenshots.

http://www.thief3.com/screenshots/04.html

Now, we see the blue again. Where? Outside. Because it is moonlight, not blue shadows!

Check every other screenshot--and these are recent, as opposed to E3 movies--and you see the same thing. Blue moonlight, and shadows that look like shadows. 'Kay?

And turning down the brightness on one's monitor will always be an option. Me, I had to turn the gamma up in DromEd sometimes because my screen showed up black from old Thief even at maximum brightness--black as in nearly pitch black, so that I could only see the dim outlines of the lamps and nothing else. There will undoubtedly be in-game controls of brightness as well; that is totally standard these days. And hopefully they will work better than they did in past Thief games.

Black Knight6662000
16th Feb 2004, 00:38
Arguing over shadows and their color is a little lame, just take a close look and see why some are blue. The reason some are bluish is because there are the mosaic windows that give off blue light. Any of the screens that have black shadows are outside. Many of the inside screens have the light from windows that still cast over shadows of torches which gives a blue shadow look. BTW, moonlight is reflected and travels through various gases, it is very possible to have different colored moons from different times, locations, pollution, etc. So blue moonlight is still possible, I'm not disagreeing.

Acronomic
16th Feb 2004, 09:22
If you think the shadows are too blue, ... adjust your monitor. :)

I think this game will be great, however... I too am a little worried. Not much, but most games I have been looking forward to lately have turned up not that good.

keeblor
16th Feb 2004, 21:51
the shadows dont look blue to me

http://www.thief3.com/screenshots/08.html

operative x
17th Feb 2004, 00:00
This is turning into a medieval/splinter cell game.

bye bye thief... :(

Acronomic
17th Feb 2004, 00:06
I dunno, looks a lot like Thief to me.

http://www.thief3.com/screenshots/01.html

:rolleyes:

HOC
17th Feb 2004, 07:12
Originally posted by operative x
This is turning into a medieval/splinter cell game.

bye bye thief... :(

nah, from the look of it it's still thief. but the 3rd person view was put in to help the xbox'ers. although i must admit, it doesn't look too shabby at all with that screen.

K33p3r
17th Feb 2004, 10:06
Thief is looking good in my opinion (3rd person is not a fixed view point, which is cool) but as others have said, i'm going to reserve my judgement till the demo comes out ....... if it ever comes out:)

Philman
24th Feb 2004, 01:16
even though the screenshots look good to me so far deus ex 2 tought me not to rely on a sound name and pretty pictures. storywise i only hope that they dont mess around with the factions pagans and their old gods of nature and chaos vs hammers and their builder (mechanists...) and the keepers as the balancing force.
anyone else feel reminded of werewolf (wyld, weaver, wyrm)
hopefully they dont overuse those keeper assasins
i sort of like the way the keepers handled things in the first two games (watch passively, leave little hints here and there and always claim that everything turned out the way their profecy foretold ;)
for such is the way of the keepers

Jareware
25th Feb 2004, 22:37
Hi, I'm new to this forum, but just wanted to voice my concerns about T: DS.

I've waited fanatically for the new Thief, and when I at some point heard that they were going to use a modified Unreal engine for the graphics (and apparently the same Havok-physics engine we will see in HL2) my hopes really got up. But after that, it's been mainly downhill.

It seems that every new detail I hear about the game is a disappointment. The name (Deadly Shadows) is a bit cheesy, but that I can live with. But no rope arrows or water? And what about the changes in gameplay? No PC game can benefit from being developed to a console simultaneously! The effect will be the opposite, most likely.

For example, I loved the first Need for Speed: Hot Pursuit. It had a few flaws but the amount of work that must have gone to it really showed. It was in the details. For every car, you could see the interior, hear a 5 minute briefing about it's techical details, see the technical details in a table, tune the car, change car colour and in convertible cars you could set if the top is up or down, even change the text on the cars licence plate. In Hot Pursuit 2, made for a console and ported to a PC, what of this is left? You can change the colour of the car and see it's top speed and the horsepower of its engine.

I do realise the difference of creating a game for a console and then porting to PC, as opposed to what ISA is doing with Thief III. But the game will have to fit into the tiny memory capacity of an Xbox, and everything must be viewable via a television. Keeping in mind that the resolution of most televisions (may be dictated by signal type and quality as well, but anyway) is not much greater than 640x480, I do not understand how this is NOT supposed to limit the game's appearance on PC, with resolutions many times greater. And I won't even go into the issue of controlling an FPS with a pad, and how they are "simplifying" the UI for this to be possible.

All in all, I hope, from the bottom of my heart, for this to be a worthy sequel to the brilliant games that were Thief I & II. Our beloved Garrett deserves nothing short of a great game for him to be in. I just hope that my fears will be shown false once I finally get to play Thief III.


-JR-

tealsmith
1st Mar 2004, 01:27
Originally posted by Jareware


I've waited fanatically for the new Thief, and when I at some point heard that they were going to use a modified Unreal engine for the graphics (and apparently the same Havok-physics engine we will see in HL2)

The game is using the same engine as Deus Ex 2. If that one's based off odf Unreal, I don't know.

Half-Life 2 however, doesn't use the Havoc engine. It uses Valve's own Source engine.

Black Knight6662000
1st Mar 2004, 01:44
To clarify things a bit...The DE2 engine is a moded T3 engine that is largely composed of the new Unreal engine. Half life 2 uses its own engine called SOURCE ENGINE. All three: DE2, T3, and HL2 use the Havok physics engine. Games can have multiple engines and the Havok physics engine purely controls the physics (the way things collide, forces, etc). Max Payne 2, Painkiller, I believe Doom 3 (not quite sure), and Rainbow Six 3 (RS3 however only uses the ragdoll part of the Havok physics engine) also use the Havok physics engine. So the good thing is that T3's engine was specifically made for T3, which is why you find T3 terms and settings that are unused in the DE2, and that is also why they claim smoother gameplay and much larger levels (meaning less "area" loading like in DE2, if any at all exist in the middle of a mission) and quicker loading times.

bonobp
15th Mar 2004, 16:49
i can´t understand the fuzz about blue or colorless light or shadows or what the hell you are complaining about. the screens look amazing, go complain about the other stuff that´s worth complaing :p

Bertuccio
23rd Mar 2004, 19:18
I am not entirely happy with the changes.

Things I like are better graphics and supposedly better AI. We'll see about the AI.

Things I mind.

The artwork and ad campaigns are all 'badass' stuff, which is very un-Thieflike, and generally don't look much like the previous Thief stuff. "All that is yours will soon be mine." is a prime example.

Messing with popular things like rope-arrows.

The fact that it's made for PC and console simultaneously. And especially that it only came out for 1 console(Which I consider pandering to MS). PCs can handle more than consoles in all respects and I think it's limiting to try to make it fit onto a console.

The subtitle "Deadly Shadows" is probably one of the lamest of all time. It's got to be in the top 10.

What kills me.

Skills... Skills have absolutely no place in Thief.
1) Garrett doesn't need to practice, he's as good as it gets.

2) Part of the appeal of Thief/Thief2 was that there was no need to worry about building skills or assigning skill points or of any of that crap, you just played the game.

Basically the only reason skills are added to any game now is to make the game more addictive. Apparently it's more important that a game be addictive than be fun. This part of the game was obviously just added to appeal to the mass gamer and up ratings. I think it will severely detract from gameplay.

On shadow color.

I don't think it's too important.
Either way, in low light most of our vision is from the rods in our eyes. We perceive light hitting our rods as purplish-blue(Try it. Look at a white wall at night) so it wouldn't be entirely unreasonable for the game to have bluish coloring. However, since we will all be playing this game in dark rooms with the lights out and monitor brightness down low we'll already be seeing in blue, so there's no need to simulate on the monitor what's already going on in our eyes.

Squid
23rd Mar 2004, 20:55
Bertuccio, we haven't heard of any skill system being implemented into the game at all. While there's been a couple of references to 'pseudo-RPG' elements being added in, that's been the extent of it. So, where are you getting your information?

Squid

Bertuccio
24th Mar 2004, 05:37
"Bertuccio, we haven't heard of any skill system being implemented into the game at all."

Looks like you're right. Glad you called me on that. I misread multiple articles describing the new lockpicking system.. Some of them said they will be changing how lockpicking works and adding a lockpicking skill. From this I thought they meant they would be adding a game skill and not a technical skill that needs practicing.

tootired
9th Apr 2004, 00:47
It doesn't matter too much what T3 is like. Most of the mods will be true to Thief and some will be available before you can say, "This Sucks!" And if it rocks then that's even better. Of COURSE they're going to release editing tools with the game, if they want it to sell.

hellbilly
9th Apr 2004, 22:56
One thing that looks different about the lockpicking is that you have to be standing right in front of the door...within arm's length. So, that makes it a little more challenging because in I and II you could usually stand in the shadows off to the side, lean and just work the door that way- less risky.

Silent_Hitman47
10th Apr 2004, 16:27
T:DS looks so damn awesome. I myself have never played any of the Thief games but this one looks like it will bring me in. Just the i dea of sitting in a pub next to some loudmouth drunk telling everyone about his most expensive thing gets, and then going to steal it gets my mouth watering. This game looks fabulous and is up there with Hitman: Contracts, Doom 3, and Halo 2