PDA

View Full Version : [SPOILER] Raziel's questions



Elyon
13th Feb 2004, 11:10
1. It has been said here and by an interview with Amy that Raziel is both champions of the prophecy, the Hylden and the Vampire (this is to my knowledge) can someone explain in detail how this is so? how Raziel is Hylden and an Ancient (Raziel being past-vampiric is probably why he is an ancient) 2. How does Raziel's nature give him free will? 3. and lastly since raziel has free will why is he still trapped in the machinations of time/fate, by this i mean in SR2 Raziel was fated to be taken in by the reaver yet if he had "free will" then time and fate would have no hold over him

Protector_Malek
13th Feb 2004, 12:45
He apparently has free will because kain took the blade out of his chest when he was suposed to get sucked into it. That was his destiny.
His Dual Nature: wraith raziel is neither a vampire nor a hylden. He is just a wraith. Since prophets can only foretell bits and pieces of future events, each one of them prophetized him as their own race's hero, but the outcome was unclear. They couldn't read all the signs nor understand them, because of raziel having free will, so they couldn't foretell the actual outcome, only gathered information.
It was raziel who finally understood the meaning of the prophecy.

You have to understand that raziel had free will but only in some degree, not completely. He willingly chose to get inside the blade, but as you can see throughout the whole game, he has the wraith reaver coming out of his arm all the time, meaning that somehow he would eventually end up inside the blade. And that is because Nosgoth's history is only one, an unchangeable one (as said by the game's team ("Time in the world of Legacy of Kain is basically immutable - those who travel through it can't change history, because they didn't")

omegafury
13th Feb 2004, 17:07
raz has free will because the sword did not take him in sr2, he's become a paradox which allows him freedom to whatever he wishes in nosgoth. because dosent know what to do with him now that he's escaped the reaver, well, at least for the time being.

his dual nature exists because he is possessed by the hylden partially during his scrap with kain, and he's incricate to the vampire's success by forging the spirit reaver for kain.

it dosent refer to him being an ancient so much as being a vampire.

Protector_Malek
13th Feb 2004, 21:22
Originally posted by omegafury

his dual nature exists because he is possessed by the hylden partially during his scrap with kain, and he's incricate to the vampire's success by forging the spirit reaver for kain.
.
uf, you're wrong. Raziel is a wraith. he is not a vampire nor a hylden. his dual nature obeys to the fact that ancient prophets (hylden and vampires) saw him in their prophecies as a hero of their own.
It is not a physical duality, it is a role duality.

Raz
13th Feb 2004, 21:54
Raziel is neither an Ancient nor a Hylden. However, he was prophesied by the Ancients to be both "Redeemer and Destroyer".

You see, Raziel technically killed Kain, the Scion of Balance and the true saviour of Nosgoth, yet he sacrificed himself to purify the Reaver blade of corruption and aid the Scion of Balance in his quest. This is why he was portrayed as both the victor and the vanquished. He has a dual nature.

Raziel's unique resurrection gifted him with true Free Will. As the Elder spared him from the Wheel of Fate he became forever unbound. Every other being in Nosgoth is bound to the Wheel of Fate as their souls have not been spared. This is why the Elder, when frustrated with Raziel, makes mention of his ability to keep Raziel trapped in the Spectral Realm. As he cannot destroy Raziel, he shall keep him trapped...

Although it seems as though Raziel's Destiny is inevitable, it seems that he can delay it for as long as he sees fit. This is due to the fact that, as mentioned before, he has been spared from the cycle of birth, death and rebirth.

Hope this helps! ;)

Dogfight
14th Feb 2004, 04:06
Here are my answers to the best of my knowledge of the series.


1. It has been said here and by an interview with Amy that Raziel is both champions of the prophecy, the Hylden and the Vampire (this is to my knowledge) can someone explain in detail how this is so? how Raziel is Hylden and an Ancient (Raziel being past-vampiric is probably why he is an ancient)

There are parts here that haven't been officially confirmed, this is but the deductive reasoning I've gathered from the series.

According to the series thus far Raziel was a human Sarafan that got killed off by his future self, following this millennia later he was brought back as a Vampire, then he was thrown into the Abyss and reborn. Raziel's plunge into the Abyss destroyed his body, but it also changed his soul, Raziel became more filled madness, rage and the thirst for revenge. Raziel didn't exactly come back from the dead, he died, was destroyed by the Abyss and his soul was reborn as an Angel of Death, a Reaver of Souls. It is not yet known if the Elder brought him back or Raziel's dead spirit somehow brought himself back from disillusionment. Either way Raziel's spirit returned as a ghoul, a wraith.

Now, this is the part were things get murky, at this point what I am going to present is unconfirmed but it could be true.

Raziel's spirit was brought back as a Hylden spirit. He is the equivalent of a Hylden spirit, before the Demon Dimension changed their souls and bodies by corrupting them with green energies.

Lets get back to the series facts.

Following this he was able to will his soul into a physical manifestation by feeding on souls.

Later, when Raziel grabbed the true form of the Soul Reaver, it bounded itself to his right hand, making them both he and it one.

In Soul Reaver 2 when Moebius used his staff on Raziel, it immobilized the Wraith Blade, but it had no effect on Raziel.

My argument that explains this scenario is that Raziel's dead spirit is a Hylden spirit, but his wraith blade is Vampiric. This would explain why Moebius' staff didn't work on Raziel when he used it, but it did immobilize the Vampiric wraith blade.

The Blood Reaver then feeds on Raziel's soul because he has no blood and he is a Hylden spirit. However at the end of Defiance the Blood Reaver, absorbs Raziel's spirit, destroys it and then remakes it into a Vampiric wraith blade. This would fit with everything Amy has said thus far and even with Raziel's words in Defiance. This would add some more meaning to Raziel's final words to Kain.


Q: Which figure is Raziel in the murals? A: He is both. His free will results in a hybrid destiny, where he is both redeemer and destroyer. As Amy put it, "he does triumph, and paradoxically he does destroy himself at the same time."

This would also explain how Moebius knew all along that Raziel was a Hylden: "And Raziel is not what you think."


2. How does Raziel's nature give him free will?

When Janos showed Raziel the Blood Reaver, he himself felt no distortion. The time distortion only happens when two Soul Reavers, the wraith blade on Raziel’s right hand, and a wraith blade within the Blood Reaver meet, thus creating a paradox or temporal storm powerful enough to derail history.
Paradoxes only happened when someone was changing history as opposed to making history. The first thing you need to understand is that in Soul Reaver 2 Raziel's dead spirit was changing history as opposed to making it. In Soul Reaver 2, Kain was supposed to be killed by Raziel's spirit at William’s Chapel and the spirit was supposed to go inside the Soul Reaver at the Sarafan Stronghold. In that game Raziel's ghost was struggling to change the Wheel of Fate, by exerting his will over that of history. At the end of that game when the spirit of Raziel was prevented from going into the Blood Reaver to create the Soul Reaver, a gigantic time distortion was made, a huge paradox, bigger than any before, as Kain puts it, the edge of the coin!!! This allowed Raziel's spirit to regain his lost free will; he is making history now not changing it. He decides now what is going to happen. When Raziel's ghost ran into the blade in Soul Reaver 2 he had to fight against the pull of fate and history, in Defiance he just has to fight against becoming the Soul Reaver, there is a huge difference. Kain even says in Defiance that the spirit of Raziel is the only with free will and Moebius confirms Kain’s words.


3. and lastly since raziel has free will why is he still trapped in the machinations of time/fate, by this i mean in SR2 Raziel was fated to be taken in by the reaver yet if he had "free will" then time and fate would have no hold over him

One of the reasons the Blood Reaver was created was to sap the blood of the enemies of the Ancients, the Hylden, to do this it was imbued with vampiric energy. Since Raziel's dead spirit is the Hylden Champion and he has no blood, the blade if plunged into Raziel feeds on the essence of his soul instead. Once it got a taste it was dedicated to consuming Raziel.

Elyon
14th Feb 2004, 06:25
It seems people havent really come to a general consensus with my questions, however there are some answers that i will try and debunk.

1. If you approach this answer by regarding the murals as literal, that is that raziel must be hylden and an ancient/vampire then it is really hard to answer this question as so far in the series there has been no definite answer that raziel ever was a hylden.
Omegafury that wasnt a Hylden that possessed him it was just his enhanced telekinetic powers afta abosrbing turels soul, raziel shows no possession from a Hylden (you dont see any scene where some Hylden is talking out of Raziel), also Dogfight when u say raziels spirit is ressurrected by EG as a hylden spirit thats impossible due to the fact that if his spirit was hylden he wouldnt even be raziel (wouldnt have his memories of being a vampire and being thrown into the abyss).

The most plausible theory is the one advanced by Protector_malek and Raz...If you approach the murals images as metaphorical then you can see that the image of the Hylden killing the Ancient is a metaphorical image that Raziel killing Kain would have damned the pillars to being destroyed as Kain would never be alive to find a way to save them, therefore Raziel would have been seen as the Hyldens champion because he destroyed the pillars and allowed the Hylden to come back to Nosgoth and also killing the last living vampire, essentially letting the Hylden win... The mural depicting the ancient killing the Hylden is metaphorical for Raziel sacrificing himself to purify Kain thus giving Kain the chance to save the pillars, therefore in a sense Raziel is preserving the Ancients duty to keep the pillars up to banish the Hylden so in this way Raziel would have been seen as the Ancients champion as the anceints would still win over the Hylden (even though their all almost dead )

Elyon
14th Feb 2004, 06:40
For my questions 2 and 3 the answers are even harder to theorise...

The Theory as proposed by Raz that since Raziel is spared from the Wheel of Fate, life death and rebirth by EG then Raziel has free will....But then wouldnt every vampire and hylden have free will as the Hylden not worshipping EG were outside his wheel of fate and death and rebirth and after the Hylden cursed the Ancients to becoming immortal and thus also being relieved from the wheel then every vamp would have free will.

THe popular theory that since Raz averted his destiny in SR2 to becoming the reaver sword he has free will... But then wouldnt Kain also have free will as his destiny was also changed when Raziel tried to kill him in Williams chapel.

There are only 2 answers i can really see as plausible
1. Raziel not being pulled into the reaver in SR2 created a large enuff paradox (as he states that this paradox was even bigger than any other "perhaps we had introduced a fatal paradox") that he exists outside of time but then he still goes into the sword so it seems he only has a limited free will which basically mean he had no free will at all.
2. He never had free will, it was all an illusion to egg Kain to find him, as u see Raziel inevitably goes into the sword anyway so... :/ but then this goes against nearly everything said ingame that raz has free will.

Dogfight
14th Feb 2004, 07:41
Elaborating on my previous post.


Dogfight when u say raziels spirit is ressurrected by EG as a hylden spirit thats impossible due to the fact that if his spirit was hylden he wouldnt even be raziel (wouldnt have his memories of being a vampire and being thrown into the abyss).

You would be right that it would be impossible for Raziel's spirit to remember his past, if he was brought back as a Hylden in a new body, but this does not happen.

Raziel was thrown into the Abyss, and then he came back as a wraith unlike any other, something happened in between, a type of transformation which changed Raziel's spirit from a Vampire spirit into something else.

His spirit could have been changed into a Hylden spirit, different than the evil Hylden spirits we have currently seen, more like how the Hylden spirits were before being banished.


If you approach the murals images as metaphorical then you can see that the image of the Hylden killing the Ancient is a metaphorical image that Raziel killing Kain would have damned the pillars to being destroyed as Kain would never be alive to find a way to save them, therefore Raziel would have been seen as the Hyldens champion because he destroyed the pillars and allowed the Hylden to come back to Nosgoth and also killing the last living vampire, essentially letting the Hylden win... The mural depicting the ancient killing the Hylden is metaphorical for Raziel sacrificing himself to purify Kain thus giving Kain the chance to save the pillars, therefore in a sense Raziel is preserving the Ancients duty to keep the pillars up to banish the Hylden so in this way Raziel would have been seen as the Ancients champion as the anceints would still win over the Hylden (even though their all almost dead )

I used to have a similar yet different view, but it was revealed to be only a misdirection in the series when the truth revealed by Crystal Dynamics was that Raziel is both figures and Kain is neither.

In Defiance even the spirit of Raziel concludes that he is a Hylden, and thus far all his revelations about his incarnations have been true. He found out he was a human Sarafan and this was true, he discovered the wraith blade was a Vampiric blade and himself, which is also a fact, then he says so himself that he is a Hylden spirit and thus this is why the Blood Reaver tries to absorb him. By the way Raziel's ghost being a Hylden spirit, does not mean that his revelations about him being the Vampire's Champion were not true, for he does become this in the end by sacrificing himself to the blade.

For the wraith blade is not symbolic of being Vampiric, it is Vampiric. What is more Moebius' staff simply did not work on the dead Raziel for being a Vampire Wraith, there had to be a reason, and the simplest most reasonable one given by the series is that Raziel's ghost is a Hylden spirit.

Elyon
14th Feb 2004, 11:29
Eh? i think u misinterpreted my huge qoute, the murals arent literal images of raz killing kain or Kain killing him but rather a symbolic image of Anceints or the Hylden winning against the other and raz has the choice (free will) to make this outcome possible for either side, if he kills kain then pillars are gone Hylden come back no more vaps (Kain is the last) so Hylden win, When Raz purifies Kain then the Ancients win and the Hylden lose as Kain maintains the Hyldes prison....

Ive actually discarded that theory of mine and come to believe that both prophecies have come true, Raz was always thought to be a Hylden by whoever created those murals and they are both erected because the one who prophecied saw Raz simultaneosly killing Kain (vamp citadel) and being killed by Kain( near the end), which leads to the centre mural at the end of Kain being wrought whole and having both the physical reaver and the fire reaver as depicted in the murals

Raz
14th Feb 2004, 13:51
The below spoiler contains one small Blood Omen 2 spoiler in the form of a quote...

As mentioned before, the murals do not actually depict Kain and Raziel themselves. Instead, they represent their roles. Events relating to Kain are represented by the Ancient found throughout the murals, and events relating to Raziel are depicted as the Hylden. However, both sets of events are directly influenced by Raziel.

Raziel's not been changed into a "Hylden spirit" or any other mumbo jumbo... He was spared from the Wheel of Fate by the Elder. This is said in LoK Defiance. There is nothing to suggest that Raziel has changed in any way at all, other than the fact he was resurrected as a wraith. Also, Raziel never states that he is a Hylden. He comes to realise that he is the Hylden champion, though he is not a Hylden... Raziel was manipulated into completing the Hylden Lord's plans. He was manipulated into "killing" Kain at Avernus Cathderal. The Ancients didn't know the specifics; they foretold the death of the Ancient champion at the hands of the Hylden champion, and they also foretold the death of the Hylden champion at the hands of the Ancient champion. Whether or not Raziel was manipulated into "killing" Kain was irrelevant. The occurrences at Avernus Cathedral and the Spirit Forge are true to the Ancient prophecies. I'm sorry, but I fail to see how anyone can dispute the facts which have been so clearly laid out for them...

The query as to whether or not the vampires and the Hylden have Free Will due to their immortal nature is an interesting one...

I do not believe the vampires have Free Will as, if they die, their souls shall inevitably return to the Wheel of Fate. It is this inevitability which binds them to the cycle. The Elder wants the vampire race destroyed so that he can feed on the souls he believes are his... They have been trapped and spared from the cycle of birth, death and rebirth and the Elder's not a happy chappy.

However, the Hylden on the other hand, may very well possess Free Will, or some varation in the very least... The reason the Hylden were banished is due to the fact that they would not worship the Elder. They would not submit to the Wheel of Fate. However, we know that they were not immortal before their banishment to the Demon Dimension.


Our banishment in the Demon Dimension also ensures our immortality.

These are the words of the Sarafan Lord, shortly before Kain kills him at the end of Blood Omen 2. Perhaps the Hylden were reincarnated through some means, or perhaps they had their own god. It's too soon to say as we know very little about the Hylden at this point.

However, know this... Raziel did exert Free Will before the Reaver blade tried to consume him at the end of Soul Reaver 2. Remember, he spared Kain in William's Chapel... ;)

As I mentioned, I personally believe that although Raziel had Free Will, it was inevitable that he would be consumed by the Reaver. When it happened was for Raziel to decide, but I believe it was inevitable... Perhaps there was a way to change his Fate, though it may've caused a fatal paradox. We'll not know for a long while yet, if at all... ;)

Dogfight
15th Feb 2004, 03:24
Here is my response to the last post.

The quote below is an excerpt from an official Defiance F.A.Q. with the script writer Amy Hennig.


Q: Which figure is Raziel in the murals?
A: He is both. His free will results in a hybrid destiny, where he is both redeemer and destroyer. As Amy put it, "he does triumph, and paradoxically he does destroy himself at the same time."[QUOTE]

This next quote is from another official F.A.Q. on Defiance with some of the staff at Crystal Dynamics.

[QUOTE]Q: Do the figures in the murals represent the dual natures of Raziel and Kain, with Raziel being the figure that always falls at the hands of Kain, or is Raziel literally both, with Kain only as the central figure of the Scion of Balance mural?
A: As the Scion of Balance, Kain isn't really either one of the figures in the murals. Raziel is both of them. This is part of what Raziel realized at the end of Defiance.

The link below is for the full F.A.Q.'s on Defiance.

http://www.thelostworlds.net/Defiance.HTML

I used to have a similar yet different view as both you and Elyon, but it was revealed to be only a misdirection purposely done by Crystal Dynamics that was difficult to spot.

Elaborating on my past deductive posts, the dead Raziel is both figures in the murals, there is no correlation between them and Kain. The only figure Kain is, is that of the Scion of Balance mural. The other murals are symbolic of Raziel's struggle with himself. The dead Raziel that is a Hylden spirit against his right hand future self, the Vampiric wraith blade. The same entity, but two different forms, at war with one another.

Here are some Defiance quotes further providing some consistent evidence for my argument.


Moebius: "Your delusion of fulfilling the Vampires' foolish prophecies have badly distorted your judgment. And Raziel is not what you think."


(Raziel discovers another mural, this one of one of the winged Ancients, the Soul Reaver brandished in his grip.)

Raziel: "The image of the Reaver was inscribed throughout this place, always depicted with reverence. The Vampires' holy weapon was borne by their prophesied hero, for whom it was forged. But if this was to be my destiny, why had the Reaver
tried to consume me?"


Raziel: "My kind? What exactly do you think I am?"

Ariel: "Your name shall remain 'Unspoken', as decreed by our ancestors. You serve the one who so brutally took my life and set this tragedy in motion. But even now, hope is at work, Balance will be restored, and your kind will be expelled forever."


Raziel: "History is written by the victors. Beneath the vaults of Avernus I discovered scenes that told a familiar story, but from a very different point of view. This was the work of the enemy race, and revealed what the Vampire histories had conveniently omitted; how the noble Vampires, God ridden and righteous, had started the wars that would destroy both races, victor and vanquished alike. Their adversaries opposed the Vampires' God, and refused to submit to the Wheel of Fate, for this, they were banished. I now understood the poetic irony of their curse. And my resemblance to the Vampires' enemy no longer seemed so accidental."



Mortanius: "You are too late for the victory you sought. I have beaten you after all."

Razisel: "You have mistaken my identity."

Mortanius: "Have I? You forget who schooled me in the ancient prophecies."

(Mortanius struggles again, but in vain this time, as the Hylden Lord is now able to speak.)

Hylden Lord: (Speaking through Mortanius):
"This vessel speaks truly. You are indeed overdue. But it no longer matters in the least. With or without you, we will prevail."



Raziel: “Then you know what I am, and who you are?”

Kain: “I believe I do.”


“You must trust me, Raziel. Our intentions, for Nosgoth, for our futures, are not so diverse.” - Kain


Raziel: “I’m not who you think I am. Nor is this a benevolent act. I have questions that apparently you alone can answer.”

Janos Audron: “Raziel, there are forces in this world that will strive to deceive you and pervert your destiny. But you must believe, your arrival foretells the salvation of the Vampire race.”

Raziel: “Why then would the Vampires devise a weapon to consume and imprison their savior?”

Janos Audron: “No... that cannot be...”

Raziel: "While the blade yet exists, I am drawn inexorably toward my doom. It was you who bound me to this fate. Only you can release me.”

Janos Audron: “Raziel, you have been misled. You are ordained by prophecy to wield the Reaver.”

(Raziel calls forth the Wraith Blade, holding it before Janos, who recoils in alarm.)

Raziel: “And so I do. Though not quite as though you’d envisioned.”

Janos Audron: “Redeemer and Destroyer... is it possible? Did I misread all the signs? It seems your destiny is more labyrinthian than I had imagined. You must trust me, Raziel.”

Elyon
15th Feb 2004, 09:50
I still havent heard of a definite theory of why raz has free will, Raz exerts free will when he chooses not t kill Kain that may be true but then doesnt Kain also save Raziel from being absorbed in the blade in SR2 therefore Kain would have "free will" to save Raziel, anyway that point is mostly mute as its the paradox of having two identical items at the same time that causes a temporal distortion which gives whoevers in that distortion free will...
The problem i see is that if Raz inevitably goes into the blade then he cant have free will as he is still bound to his fate/destiny, postponing it doesnt mean he has free will because it wasnt his free will postponing his fate but the temporal distortion he experienced in SR2

and dogfight i agree with u Raz is both figures in the murals (cant really go against the creators qoute) but i still dont agree with your explanation, you say Raz's spirit is Hylden in nature and his wraithblade is "vampiric" in nature yet Raz was absorbed into the blade when he was a Hylden spirit (if u take ur theory) and the wratihblade isnt anywhere near vampiric its more wraithlike than anything.
Theres no definite theory of what both murals mean, how Raz simultaneosly was thought to be an ancient and a hylden champion and he kills himself in both instances.
Also i would like to know why both races thought Raz to be the champion of each others race

Elyon
15th Feb 2004, 09:55
You see, Raziel technically killed Kain, the Scion of Balance and the true saviour of Nosgoth, yet he sacrificed himself to purify the Reaver blade of corruption and aid the Scion of Balance in his quest. This is why he was portrayed as both the victor and the vanquished. He has a dual nature.
I agree with this and that means that the images were created together to foretell his destiny, not separately or by the separate races, they were both created by the ancients.

Dogfight
15th Feb 2004, 17:26
Here is my explanation on those scenarios.


The problem i see is that if Raz inevitably goes into the blade then he cant have free will as he is still bound to his fate/destiny, postponing it doesnt mean he has free will because it wasnt his free will postponing his fate but the temporal distortion he experienced in SR2

Well, I'd say in Soul Reaver 2 those two events you mentioned where written by fate to happen, but Raziel changed history with the two incarnations of the Soul Reaver by stopping them from happening.

After this he got his free will back, but having free will doesn't mean you can change everything.

I get the impression from Defiance that the real choice Raziel had was either accepting both of his sides, or denying one or both of their existences.

We do not yet know if Raziel had sided only with the Hylden what would have happened. Perhaps then history would be changed again with Raziel never going into the blade or Raziel would still at some far point in the future go into the blade. Such a choice's repercussions are unrevealed at this point.

Another thing, by Raziel's free will he was able to purify the wraith blade and heal Kain, this is a bid deal, which he would not have accomplished if the had gone into the blade back in Soul Reaver 2.


but i still dont agree with your explanation, you say Raz's spirit is Hylden in nature and his wraithblade is "vampiric" in nature yet Raz was absorbed into the blade when he was a Hylden spirit (if u take ur theory) and the wratihblade isnt anywhere near vampiric its more wraithlike than anything.

Yes, I can see why you wouldn't agree, I had a hard time accepting such a conclusion too, but the series says that it is so and the staff's answers do give some indication that it is true.

Engaging more on my previous discourse about my deduction of Raziel's spirit being a Hylden. You can look at the dead Raziel as a Hylden spirit, or a Hylden wraith. Even so, the wraith blade is Vampiric, (There were even Vampire Wraiths back in Soul Reaver 1.), this is why Moebius' staff which only immobilizes Vampires, immobilizes it but not Raziel's spirit. The Blood Reaver was imbued with Vampiric energies, add to this the dead spirit of Raziel and you get a Vampiric wraith blade.

I have the sense that there is more to all the murals that hasn't yet been revealed.

Raz
15th Feb 2004, 18:06
[sigh]

Dogfight, Raziel is not a Hylden spirit or anything other than a wraith. There is no evidence suggesting otherwise...

Secondly, I am well aware of the Q&A sessions which are present on the forums. The very fact that I have read them numerous times is how I have come to my conclusion...

Also, I never stated that Kain was one of the figures in the murals, other than the mural depicting the Scion of Balance. Raziel is both the Ancient and Hylden champion, whereas Kain is something entirely different; he is the Scion of Balance.

The murals depicting the battle between the Ancient and Hylden champion are not to be read literally. The murals refer to the events which occur, and not the participants...

The murals depicting the death of the Ancient champion at the hands of the Hylden champion do not depict the "death" of Kain at the hands of Raziel. Instead, it represents the Hylden, as a party, gaining an advantage over the Ancients. Likewise, the murals depicting the death of the Hylden champion at the hands of the Ancient champion do not depict the death of the Raziel at the hands of Kain. Instead, it represents the Ancients similarly gaining an advantage over the Hylden.

The advantages both parties gain on one another are blatantly obvious... Firstly, the Hylden manage to manipulate Raziel into resurrecting Janos and, as such, this allows them to set their plans in motion. Secondly, the Ancients manage to arm their champion with the weapon needed to fight the Hylden, because Raziel sacrifices himself to the Reaver blade.

As Raziel aids both parties in their struggle for victory, he is portrayed as both the Ancients' "Redeemer and Destroyer".

[Raz stamps a big, fat "CASE CLOSED" upon this area of the debate... :p]


Moebius: "Your delusion of fulfilling the Vampires' foolish prophecies have badly distorted your judgment. And Raziel is not what you think."

This does not imply that Raziel is Hylden in nature... Although Kain is aware that he is the Scion of Balance, he was not aware that Raziel was both "Redeemer and Destroyer". Kain referred to Raziel as the saviour of Nosgoth. In a sense, he was correct, as without Raziel's sacrifice Kain would not be armed to face those who threatened Nosgoth. Moebius refers to the fact that Raziel is both the Ancient and Hylden champion depicted in the murals when he mentions that Kain does not understand what Raziel is... Raziel is both the Ancient and Hylden champion while Kain is something different; the Scion of Balance. It is never said that the Scion of Balance is the Ancient champion...


Raziel: "The image of the Reaver was inscribed throughout this place, always depicted with reverence. The Vampires' holy weapon was borne by their prophesied hero, for whom it was forged. But if this was to be my destiny, why had the Reaver tried to consume me?"

The Reaver, otherwise known as the "Blood Reaver", does not feed only on blood of the red and sticky variety. Raziel states that "Janos had called it a 'vampiric' blade, endowed with the power to drain its victims of their lifeblood". The Reaver would feed upon whatever sustained those it slayed. Heck, Raziel could take on the Duracell bunny and drain it of battery fluid! The point is that the Reaver turned on Raziel as it hungered for more than the lifeblood of those it slayed. The Reaver's hunger grew to such an extent that, with all other foes exhausted, it turned upon its host. Raziel was just in the wrong place at the wrong time... This quote does not suggest he is Hylden in nature.


Raziel: "My kind? What exactly do you think I am?"

Ariel: "Your name shall remain 'Unspoken', as decreed by our ancestors. You serve the one who so brutally took my life and set this tragedy in motion. But even now, hope is at work, Balance will be restored, and your kind will be expelled forever."

Raziel is being manipulated by the Hylden and, as such, Ariel does not trust him. Ariel assumes that Raziel is working with the Hylden. Ariel is very well aware of the Hylden, as is Vorador. Remember, Vorador asks Raziel "Come to join the last pathetic battle of the vampire race? But on which side, I wonder...". Initially, he too is wary of Raziel... However, once Raziel questions why the Reaver would try to imprison the saviour of the vampire race, Vorador assumes that Raziel has come to the aid of the vampires, knowing very well what Raziel's nature is. He assumes that Raziel has made the choice to side with the vampires. However, unknown to both Ariel and Vorador, Raziel does not know about his true identity. Again, this does not suggest that Raziel is Hylden. It merely suggests that Ariel and, albeit for a very short time, Vorador assume that he is aligned with the Hylden...


Raziel: "History is written by the victors. Beneath the vaults of Avernus I discovered scenes that told a familiar story, but from a very different point of view. This was the work of the enemy race, and revealed what the Vampire histories had conveniently omitted; how the noble Vampires, God ridden and righteous, had started the wars that would destroy both races, victor and vanquished alike. Their adversaries opposed the Vampires' God, and refused to submit to the Wheel of Fate, for this, they were banished. I now understood the poetic irony of their curse. And my resemblance to the Vampires' enemy no longer seemed so accidental."

Again, this does not suggest that Raziel is Hylden. It merely reveals that the Hylden foretold the arrival of their "messiah". In this case, Raziel was their "messiah" in the sense that they manipulated him in order to provide them with the chance to re-enter Nosgoth. He was not knowingly their "messiah"...


Mortanius: "You are too late for the victory you sought. I have beaten you after all."

Razisel: "You have mistaken my identity."

Mortanius: "Have I? You forget who schooled me in the ancient prophecies."

(Mortanius struggles again, but in vain this time, as the Hylden Lord is now able to speak.)

Hylden Lord: (Speaking through Mortanius):
"This vessel speaks truly. You are indeed overdue. But it no longer matters in the least. With or without you, we will prevail."

Again, as with Ariel, Mortanius assumes that Raziel is aware of his nature as the Hylden "messiah". Again, there's nothing to suggest that Raziel is Hylden...


Raziel: “Then you know what I am, and who you are?”

Kain: “I believe I do.”

I'm not quite sure why you included this one... :p


Kain: "You must trust me, Raziel. Our intentions, for Nosgoth, for our futures, are not so diverse."

Again, I'm not sure why this is here... :p


Raziel: “I’m not who you think I am. Nor is this a benevolent act. I have questions that apparently you alone can answer.”

Janos Audron: “Raziel, there are forces in this world that will strive to deceive you and pervert your destiny. But you must believe, your arrival foretells the salvation of the Vampire race.”

Raziel: “Why then would the Vampires devise a weapon to consume and imprison their savior?”

Janos Audron: “No... that cannot be...”

Raziel: "While the blade yet exists, I am drawn inexorably toward my doom. It was you who bound me to this fate. Only you can release me.”

Janos Audron: “Raziel, you have been misled. You are ordained by prophecy to wield the Reaver.”

(Raziel calls forth the Wraith Blade, holding it before Janos, who recoils in alarm.)

Raziel: “And so I do. Though not quite as though you’d envisioned.”

Janos Audron: “Redeemer and Destroyer... is it possible? Did I misread all the signs? It seems your destiny is more labyrinthian than I had imagined. You must trust me, Raziel.”

This quote actually helps me prove my point... Janos initially misunderstood the meaning of the ancient prophecies, and he comes to the sudden realisation that Raziel is both "Redeemed and Destroyer". I needn't go into detail, as I have done so already... :rolleyes:

Anyway, that's it... I've no more to say Your Honour! :rolleyes:

warpsavant
15th Feb 2004, 19:27
So, everytime we see the 2 guys fighting in the murals in Defiance or SR2, its really Raziel vs Raziel?

Raz
15th Feb 2004, 22:16
I believe that, in a sense, it is... :)

You see, the mural depicting the defeat of the Ancient champion at the hands of the Hylden champion represents the success of the Hylden in escaping the Demon Dimension, due to the fact that Raziel "killed" Kain, restored Janos and provided the Hylden Lord with a vessel with which to open the gateway between the realms... It is for this reason that Raziel is depicted as the Hylden champion, despite the fact that he was unknowingly manipulated, allowing them to escape from the Demon Dimension.

Hylden 1 - 0 Ancients

The other mural depicts the defeat of the Hylden champion at the hands of the Ancient champion, and this represents Raziel sacrificing himself to the Reaver blade, in turn arming the Scion of Balance for his true endeavour. Without Raziel having sacrificed himself to the Reaver blade, the Scion of Balance would not be armed for the trials ahead, meaning that all hope would be lost...

Hylden 1 - 1 Ancients

So, both races have gained a slight advantage. The Hylden have now broken free from their banishment, and the Scion of Balance, representing the Ancients, is now armed for the battle ahead... :)

Dogfight
15th Feb 2004, 22:57
Reiterating on my previous posts.


The Reaver, otherwise known as the "Blood Reaver", does not feed only on blood of the red and sticky variety. Raziel states that "Janos had called it a 'vampiric' blade, endowed with the power to drain its victims of their lifeblood". The Reaver would feed upon whatever sustained those it slayed. Heck, Raziel could take on the Duracell bunny and drain it of battery fluid! The point is that the Reaver turned on Raziel as it hungered for more than the lifeblood of those it slayed. The Reaver's hunger grew to such an extent that, with all other foes exhausted, it turned upon its host. Raziel was just in the wrong place at the wrong time... This quote does not suggest he is Hylden in nature.

I never said the Blood Reaver “only” fed on the blood of the Hylden, the enemies of the Ancient, but this is one of the reasons it was created for. It being able to feed on the blood of others, besides the Hylden, is a bonus. Alone this doesn’t mean that the dead Raziel is a Hylden, but with everything else there is more than enough evidence to support my argument.

The reason I posted all does quotes was to establish a pattern of everyone believing Raziel to be a Hylden in Defiance. Thus far in Defiance, you have Ariel, Mortanius, the Hylden, the Hylden Lord, Kain, and Janos Audron who all accept that the dead Raziel is a Hylden.

Now, I once was inclined to believe in a similar view like yours and Elyon's, on how Raziel had a hybrid destiny, but this isn’t necessarily incorrect if the dead Raziel was always just a Hylden, for while at the same time he held his future Vampiric wraith blade. Thus the dead Raziel had a hybrid destiny all along.


“You must trust me, Raziel. Our intentions, for Nosgoth, for our futures, are not so diverse.” - Kain

Kain’s quote illustrates that while the ghost of Raziel is a Hylden, this doesn’t mean that the Vampires need be enemies with Raziel, but could still be allies. Kain holds Raziel’s spirit in higher regard than anyone, even if he is a Hylden.

What is more when the dead Raziel is underneath the catacombs of Avernus Cathedral he himself says that he was always the Hylden champion and never the Ancient’s foretold hero, and the Elder says yes to Raziel’s words. Even so, in the end by letting himself be destroyed Raziel’s spirit does become the hero of the Ancients, for the Blood Reaver while destroying him also absorbs him and transforms him into a Vampiric wraith blade.


So, everytime we see the 2 guys fighting in the murals in Defiance or SR2, its really Raziel vs Raziel?

I once had an altogether different view, but the words revealed by Amy and the staff showed that it, like some others take on the murals, were but misdirections purposely put in the game to mislead us all. Such views were but a way to get Raziel and Kain to fight one another, but not what the murals really represented. Unfortunately in the game the true representation of the murals isn’t really stated, not that the game doesn’t give some hints of it, but it would have been better if their true representation was outright stated.

According to Amy and the staff’s quotes, yes those murals are but representations of Raziel at war with himself.[/QUOTE]

Raz
15th Feb 2004, 23:34
Originally posted by Dogfight
I never said the Blood Reaver “only” fed on the blood of the Hylden, the enemies of the Ancient, but this is one of the reasons it was created for. It being able to feed on the blood of others, besides the Hylden, is a bonus. Alone this doesn’t mean that the dead Raziel is a Hylden, but with everything else there is more than enough evidence to support my argument.

Okay, fair enough, I did not make my words clear here... I did not mean to suggest that you had suggested the Reaver only fed on the lifeblood of the Hylden. However, this still does not change anything...


Originally posted by Dogfight
The reason I put all does quotes was to establish a pattern of everyone believing Raziel to be a Hylden. Thus far in Defiance, you have Ariel, Mortanius, the Hylden, the Hylden Lord, Kain, and Janos Audron who all accept that the dead Raziel is a Hylden.

It is never said that they believe he is a Hylden. Ariel and Mortanius assume he is allied with the Hylden, though it is never, ever, ever... (some time later) ...ever, ever, ever said that they believe Raziel to be Hylden. If you have a quote in which I am proved wrong, by all means, present it here. However, until then, there is nothing to suggest in any way that Ariel and Mortanius believed Raziel to be a Hylden any more than there is evidence suggesting they believed him to be the Tooth Fairy! I cannot believe for one instant that the Hylden Lord believed Raziel to be a Hylden. I mean, he of all people should know a Hylden when he encounters one, though he makes no mention of the possibility of Raziel being a Hylden! Ariel and Mortanius aren't exactly clued-in to the whole Hylden affair. I mean, Mortanius worships the Hylden Lord through Turel! Also, before you mention it, I know Turel was not possessed by the Hylden Lord... however, Turel acted as a figurehead for the Hylden Lord. Ariel and Mortanius don't exactly ask Raziel twenty questions now, do they? They know that he is in some was connected to the Hylden, so that's enough for them to take an instant disliking to Raziel...


Originally posted by Dogfight
Kain’s quote illustrates that while the ghost of Raziel is a Hylden, this doesn’t mean that the Vampires need be enemies with Raziel, but could still allies. This reveals that Kain has come a long way, from Blood Omen 1 and 2 his words do indeed appear to be true. Kain holds Raziel’s spirit in higher regard than anyone, even if he is a Hylden.

I don't mean to be rude, but I'll disregard the portion about Kain's quote. I personally fail to see how you came to such a conclusion, though if someone wishes to enlighten me, feel free to do so... :p


Originally posted by Dogfight
What is more when the dead Raziel is underneath the catacombs of Avernus Cathedral he himself says that he was always the Hylden champion and never the Ancient’s foretold hero, and the Elder says yes to Raziel’s words. Even so, in the end by letting himself be destroyed Raziel’s spirit does become the hero of the Ancients, for the Blood Reaver while destroying him also absorbs him and transforms him into a Vampiric wraith blade.

You must remember that not everything that a character states is fact. It is their interpretation of events. Raziel initially believed that he was the saviour of Nosgoth. However, as time progressed, he came to believe that he was the Hylden champion. I mean, the Hylden champion could've been Barbie for all it matters! The point is that Raziel was portrayed by the Ancients as the Hylden champion because ultimately Raziel helped the Hylden achieve their goal. The Ancients probably didn't care about the fine details... they knew that Raziel was the Hylden champion. The Hylden knew that Raziel was their champion because he would be the one to cause their release back into Nosgoth. They didn't particularly care how they got back into Nosgoth, as long as they did... Raziel was depicted as their champion as they knew he would aid them in their escape from the Demon Dimension. Raziel was a tool to be used. It was only at the end of Defiance that Raziel came to realise that he was both "Redeemer and Destroyer". He came to realise this after he had consumed Moebius, and before he used Moebius' corpse to confront Kain... check it out some time! ;)

Anyway, time for another brief break before I return here... :p

a74gh83
16th Feb 2004, 03:47
There might be or might not be a spoiler here, but just to be sure.

Do the Hylden feed on souls? And to make this clear, this was emphasized at the time of Sr 2, Raziel is not an Ancient. Raziel is now currently the wraith of a fallen vampire, the decendants of the ancients, who has had his vampirism turned from a thirst of blood to a thirst for souls.

He would appear to be if anything, resembling an agent of the EG. That of course is only true if the EG had any part in his unique resurrection. Why he would want any of this to happen, well we won't bother going into it now.

The EG provided conduits for Raziel, denied of such Raziel had to project himself into a corpse to escape the spectral realm. Just because the hylden used a 'similar' method is no proof that Raziel is a hylden. There is no proof that the hylden can maintain the same level of control, as Raziel, in order to escape the spectral realm. In fact they seem somewhat helpless in the spectral realm, just waiting to be consumed by the EG's agents. My guess is that a corpse has to be somewhat prepared in the material realm for the hylden to escape the spectral realm, but that isn't important at this point.

The Hylden CHAMPION resemembles Raziel. That does not mean the champion is necessarily a hylden. I'm inclined to agree with Raz's theory on the murals about this. Assuming that Raziel is a hylden is taking the murals to literally, and they after all just prophesies.

Now back to my first point. Raziel feeds on souls, his vampirism is now dependant on souls. This does not make him a vampire. He is a wraith. He is not a vampire wraith. He can return to the material realm by means of a corpse, similar to the hylden. And I do emphasise similar. This does not make him a hylden wraith. He is a WRAITH. A wraith that is unbound to the wheel of fate in the sense that he is not compelled to do things, he has a certain element of choice. This in contrast to Kain, who as you may remember was COMPELLED to return to the vampire citadel.

That is all i have to say about this. I sincerely have seen little evidence to suggest that Raziel has anymore of a connection to the hylden other than his role as champion by provided them with their 'Vessel'.

Dogfight
16th Feb 2004, 04:50
To finish my past discourse.


Do the Hylden feed on souls? And to make this clear, this was emphasized at the time of Sr 2, Raziel is not an Ancient. Raziel is now currently the wraith of a fallen vampire, the decendants of the ancients, who has had his vampirism turned from a thirst of blood to a thirst for souls.


Moebius: "This is completely unexpected! This orb disables our vampire enemies, leaving them helpless and incapacitated. Strangely, it seems to have the same effect on that peculiar weapon of yours. But you must believe me - I mean you no harm."


Janos: "The most formidable weapon ever forged by our sword smiths... They infused the blade with vampiric energy, empowering the Reaver to drain our enemies of their precious lifeblood."

Raziel's dead spirit being that of the Ancient was a misdirection, even Janos in Defiance admits it as such.

I'm a bit skeptical that the Vampiric wraith blade would turn on the dead Raziel simply for him being a wraith. Both Soul Reaver 2 and Defiance give much more indication that the dead Raziel has always been a Hylden spirit, which would explain why Moebius' staff didn't work on Raziel's spirit and why the Vampiric wraith blade turns on him and tries to absorb him time and again.


Just because the hylden used a 'similar' method is no proof that Raziel is a hylden. There is no proof that the hylden can maintain the same level of control, as Raziel, in order to escape the spectral realm. In fact they seem somewhat helpless in the spectral realm, just waiting to be consumed by the EG's agents. My guess is that a corpse has to be somewhat prepared in the material realm for the hylden to escape the spectral realm, but that isn't important at this point.

While your statements alone isn't any indication that Raziel's ghoul is a Hylden, it sure expands on the argument for him being a Hylden more than it detracts from it.


That is all i have to say about this. I sincerely have seen little evidence to suggest that Raziel has anymore of a connection to the hylden other than his role as champion by provided them with their 'Vessel'.

Everybody in Defiance says that Raziel's ghost is a Hylden, even Kain, unless they have all been misled, Raziel's spirit is a Hylden. Amy and the staff do not say that Raziel is just a wraith representive of the figures, they say that Raziel is both of the figures. Just because Raziel's spirit is a Hylden, that would not mean that he would be just like those that were banished, he could be more like those of the original Hylden before their banishment.

All your arguments are good, but the amount of evidence saying that Raziel's spirit is a Hylden is vast, while there isn't any real evidence to disprove him being a Hylden.

I praise your efforts nonetheless, I know that many will not accept the spirit of Raziel being a Hylden until we get an official direct conclusive statement.

a74gh83
16th Feb 2004, 05:43
I'm a bit skeptical that the Vampiric wraith blade would turn on the dead Raziel simply for him being a wraith.

as you may remember when the wraith blade became 'overexcited' it turned its hunger on Raziel. Whenever Raziel came into contact with the physical blade the wraith blade would attempt to uncoil itself onto its physical twin. Both the physical and wraith blade were/are vampiric in nature, in a sense. The death of 6 reasonably powerful humans one after the other with little time difference in between would have been more than enough to over excited the wraith blade. The wraith blade was disabled, but none the less uncoiling itself onto the physical blade. As such when the wraith blade could uncoil itself, it did, and with its overwhelming hunger turned itself on the only victim left, Raziel. What he was, vampire, hylden or wraith has
absolutely no impact on the event. The wraith blade needed to feed its hunger, and so it did on Raziel.




Everybody in Defiance says that Raziel's ghost is a Hylden, even Kain, unless they have all been misled, Raziel's spirit is a Hylden.

Raziel is an 'agent' of the EG. Kain doesn't know what the EG is. Moebius doesn't know the true nature of the EG. The vampires were ignorant of what it truly is. All anyone knew about was the 'wheel of fate'. The hylden refused the 'wheel of fate', that doesn't neccessarily mean they know what the EG was.
As the EG said
"As you are undying you can never be returned to the wheel..."
The hylden REFUSED to return to the wheel of fate, Raziel cannot be returned. There is a huge difference.
As for everyone saying that he is hylden.. Ariel called him a servent of the ones who so brutely killed her. Moebius called him a champion. Kain only ever called him a savior, same for Vorador. Raziel said he has a resemblance to the hylden advesary, and that was because of the 'Flaming Sword"

Raz
16th Feb 2004, 13:10
Originally posted by Dogfight
Raziel's dead spirit being that of the Ancient was a misdirection, even Janos in Defiance admits it as such.

I'm a bit skeptical that the Vampiric wraith blade would turn on the dead Raziel simply for him being a wraith. Both Soul Reaver 2 and Defiance give much more indication that the dead Raziel has always been a Hylden spirit, which would explain why Moebius' staff didn't work on Raziel's spirit and why the Vampiric wraith blade turns on him and tries to absorb him time and again.

This is my point exactly... Earlier on I quoted Raziel when he mentioned that ""Janos had called it a 'vampiric' blade, endowed with the power to drain its victims of their lifeblood".

Basically, this mean that the Reaver would draw into it the substance which was live-giving to a being, regardless of what it was. The Reaver is not fussy about that which it consumes. It draws into it the lifeblood of those slain before it. As I mentioned before, it could "take on the Duracell bunny and drain it of battery fluid!".

Also, I think it's pretty simple to understand why the staff only disables the wraith blade, and not Raziel himself. Moebius can command the staff. I suspect that if it had fitted into his plans, he very well could have disabled Raziel.

However, if you don't buy into that idea, think about this other theory...

Raziel was a vampire. Raziel is resurrected as a wraith which feeds on souls. The hunger of the Reaver blade, combined with the ability to consume souls shown by the wraith blade, combine and consume Raziel. However, although Raziel may no longer be considered vampiric, the vampiric essence within the blade bonds with that to consume souls. Therefore, there is still a vampiric nature to the Reaver blade, despite the fact it consumes souls. This is what is disabled when Moebius disables the wraith blade.

Of course, believe what you wish as they're both just theories... :rolleyes:


Originally posted by Dogfight
While your statements alone isn't any indication that Raziel's ghoul is a Hylden, it sure expands on the argument for him being a Hylden more than it detracts from it.

No, it doesn't... Firstly, allow me to make a correction; the Hylden aren't in the Spectral Realm. They never have been. The Hylden possessed corpses are possessed by Hylden still trapped in the Demon Dimension. Just because both the Hylden and Raziel employ similar methods by which to escape their imprisonment, this does not mean they are the same... :p


Originally posted by Dogfight
Everybody in Defiance says that Raziel's ghost is a Hylden, even Kain, unless they have all been misled, Raziel's spirit is a Hylden. Amy and the staff do not say that Raziel is just a wraith representive of the figures, they say that Raziel is both of the figures. Just because Raziel's spirit is a Hylden, that would not mean that he would be just like those that were banished, he could be more like those of the original Hylden before their banishment.

All your arguments are good, but the amount of evidence saying that Raziel's spirit is a Hylden is vast, while there isn't any real evidence to disprove him being a Hylden.

Nooo... no one says that Raziel is a Hylden. They assume he is allied with them. It is never said by Kain, Ariel, Mortanius or anyone else "Oh, by the way Raz dear chap, I've just remembered something. It slipped my mind before, but the prophecies depict you as a Hylden!". Sorry, but you have to present facts here, and the fact is that Ariel and Mortanius don't stick around to hear the details. They assume Raziel is allied with the Hylden, although he is being used by them. As long as he's "on side" with the Hylden, they don't particularly care... it's enough for them to despise him for it. Ariel and Mortanius make assumptions (*cough*) and they see things in a very black-and-white sense.

There is no evidence suggesting that Raziel is a Hylden. There is none. If you find any really hardcore, rock solid proof, by all means present it here. Otherwise, I personally won't buy into it.


Originally posted by Dogfight
I praise your efforts nonetheless, I know that many will not accept the spirit of Raziel being a Hylden until we get an official direct conclusive statement.

I'm glad you praise my efforts... I'll be able to sleep at night now I've heard that! :p

I personally really don't think that you'll get the response you were hoping for... and even if you did get an official response, would you believe it?! Not unless it fit into your theories, I'm sure... :rolleyes:

WraithStar
17th Feb 2004, 00:46
When I was playing through the game, I got the impression that the murals were just uncertain predictions of the future. They depicted the possibilities- the different choices Raziel could make. However, because Raziel had free will, it was his choice which prophecy to fulfill (or both). I don't think that when the prophecies were made, anyone knew about Raziel. Janos just assumed that Raziel was the figure in the murals. And when he rethinks his views, he isn't saying Raziel is a Hylden, he is merely realizing that Raziel has a dual nature due to his free will. As far as Moebius' staff not affecting Raziel, it didn't affect Kain either once Kain didn't have the Heart of Darkness. I suspect Moebius' staff simply does not work on necromantic vampires. I think that Raziel was never an Ancient and he was never a Hylden. He was, in my opinion, a true free agent. As such, everyone distrusted him, tried to manipulate him, and in general couldn't figure him out. That's what I got directly out of playing the game.

Elyon
17th Feb 2004, 10:33
:/ well looks like no one can agree, and both theories (Raz is Hylden and Raz isnt) have good arguments behind them.
Personally i feel Raziel is merely thought to be a Hylden and ancients champion and the Murals are ( as ive always believed) metaphorical images of Hylden and the Ancients side gaining an advantage and disadvantage, now this doesnt mean ive taken this as the cold truth as Dogfights argument is very very valid and i would almost agree with it but for one problem, if Raz is hylden and his blade is vampiric and the blade represants the anceint and Raz represants the Hylden then how come the image on the mural has the Hylden holding a fireblade (therefore the wraithblade)...theory hole there.

AND NOW TO FREE WILL....Well i dont believe Raz has total free will (e.g. he can do anything he wants) he was still destined to go into the blade but he has shall we say loosened the bonds of fate on himself so that he could purify the reaver before entering the blood reaver.

Also i agree with Raz, Raziel actually fullfills both murals, first he doesnt kill Janos and also ressurects him which gives the Hylden champion the chance to enact blood omen 2 events, so he gives the Hylden a victory over ancients then he purifies the reaver giving Kain a chance at stopping everything, one up for ancients.