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ParallelReality
12th Feb 2004, 15:00
Hi I'm new to the forums and just wanna say that the LOK series is sheer brilliance.
But there is one thing that is bothering me (well quite a few things really) and that is

Throughout defiance there are references both from Kain, Raziel and the Hylden that, Raziels role is that of the Hylden heroe. The thing is that none of the murals really bare any resemblance to him at all, not by a long stretch!? Maybe the images of the blue vampire ancients, a bit, but the other heroe is clearly Hylden. The only image in a mural that bares any resemblance to either Kain of Raziel is the one found at the final confrontation with the EG which depcits a Blue balance scion with white hair, Kain. So is Raziel mistaken in assuming his role was that of the Hylden heroe, were the Hylden in control of Mortanius simply tryin to manipulate Raziel in to believing this so as he would kill Kain? or is he really meant to be the Hylden heroe?

because i'm abit confused on this point and it seems some others are too. Thanx in advance

Protector_Malek
12th Feb 2004, 15:48
I think that they first believed the blue creature to be raziel, because of his color and the wings, and in addition to that, raziel also thought it was him because Janos told him that he was the vampire's hero.
But later, Raziel thought he was the yellow creature, because in the murals that creature was wielding a fire sword, very similar to the wraith reaver.
It turned out to be that Raziel was both.
Those are the details (fire sword, wings and blue color), the signs. You don't expect the murals looked EXACTLY like raziel. They usually depict key elements.

ParallelReality
12th Feb 2004, 16:37
Hmm, yeah I hadn't taken that into consideration. Makes sense now u have pointed it out. Thanks for clearing that up for me :)
It wasn't that I expected them to look exactly like him, just vaguely I guess, which the bits u have pointed out would suggest. Must not have been paying enough attention :rolleyes:

Protector_Malek
12th Feb 2004, 17:12
tell me about it! I missed a lot of details the first time I played, and even now, that I've played it like 4 times. For example, I just realized that the wraith guardians at the forges, were ancient pillar guardians :)

HolyMoses
12th Feb 2004, 18:09
Vampire and Hylden
Redeemer and Distroyer

How many times have we heard Raziel being called that?

WraithStar
12th Feb 2004, 21:04
You forgot "Pawn and Messiah." He's called that a lot too :p .

Lär
12th Feb 2004, 21:09
He's a wild card...

'nuff said :p

Later! :D

moose562
12th Feb 2004, 21:49
he's the only one with free will as well ;)

oh and on the names scene, dont forget "toxic creature" and "little blue assassin"

HolyMoses
12th Feb 2004, 21:56
Originally posted by WraithStar
You forgot "Pawn and Messiah." He's called that a lot too :p .

Actually, Mobius was the only one who called him "Pawn and Messiah" True that he may be those things, but in the end Raziel isn't specifically anyone's pawn. He can be duped into playing a long for awhile, but he'll eventually break free. That and I have such a strong distaste for the way Mobius used him that I can't in good conscience call him that.

WraithStar
12th Feb 2004, 22:17
Raziel called himself a pawn (he said something to the effect of, "What game was this, where all sides claimed the same pawn?") and I believe Vorador refered to him as a messiah, although he was mocking him.

Jeffers
13th Feb 2004, 15:34
The Vampires depicted that a battle would take place and which ever way you look at it, both of the hero's lost. As Mobious said "It did not matter to us which one either of you thought you were, as long as the outcome was the same".

Raziel defeated Kain and returned the heart of darkness to Janos and Kain could have been classed as "defeating" Raziel in that he is now within the blade.

So 2 hero's, both of the vampire race. Raziel had his unique choice though, in that nobody could predict what he was going to do because he was outside the wheel of fate, therefore could only be guided to a path, not forced to take it unless he wanted to.

Jeffers

omegafury
13th Feb 2004, 17:31
the paintings are symbols, vampire vs hylden.

in the foreseen confrontation, raz is posessed by the hylden lord having just absorbed him from turel. so the prophecy stands as vampire v hylden.

Dogfight
13th Feb 2004, 18:16
in the foreseen confrontation, raz is posessed by the hylden lord having just absorbed him from turel.

A slight correction Raziel was never possessed by the spirit of the Hylden Lord, but instead was affected by the Hylden spirits that previously occupied Turel's body. However it is debatable to what extent of control the Hylden spirits had on Raziel's actions during the battle.

Protector_Malek
13th Feb 2004, 21:16
yeah, dogfight is right.