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plot man
10th Feb 2004, 19:01
Okay, so maybe I'm getting pretty nit-picky now, but why is it that

Turel is so surprised when he sees Raziel (he says, "not possible, he fell, into the abyss") and then two minutes later says "I heard what you did to them", meaning he heard about how Raziel had COME BACK FROM THE ABYSS and killed his brothers?

NeoDodge
10th Feb 2004, 19:23
He might have heard of the unfortunate fates of his brethren, but only when he meets raziel by then does he understand what has happened... Maybe:p

van_HellSing PL
10th Feb 2004, 19:32
Turel seems to have lost his marbles, so he probably just got mixed up...

omegafury
10th Feb 2004, 19:33
he may be refering to the events of SR2 in which raz was responsible for killing his brethren as sarafan as well as his former self. he may not have known that raz did all this as a wraith.

van_HellSing PL
10th Feb 2004, 19:46
Very nice explanation there, omegafury! Much better than mine ;).

Bobman32x
11th Feb 2004, 06:35
wow good point:confused: but omegafury did shine a possible answer on it

Protector_Malek
11th Feb 2004, 14:08
maybe he heard about his brothers but did not really believe it... until he saw Raziel with his own eyes.

sonofraziel
11th Feb 2004, 15:07
yea thats what i think too

Dark Goddess
11th Feb 2004, 15:59
until he saw Raziel with his own eyes.
well..not so much saw than heard. I think Turel was blind, thats the impression I got. but I agree with you

plot man
11th Feb 2004, 17:16
Okay, I'm willing to go along with the whole "Turel's lost his marbles" theory. It seems feasible. Omegafury's point doesn't really though.

It is very unlikely that Turel would say "I heard about what you did to them" if he was referring to the deaths of his brothers as sarafan, since he was there and was killed as well. He would more likely say something like "I remember that". Although even that would be very unlikely, especially since none of the six brethren, including Raziel, appeared to have any memory of their previous human life (see SR1). Raziel, as far as can be seen, is the only one who discovers their true Sarafan origins and so is the only one who knows (except for Rahab, whom he tells before he kills in SR1) anything about it. Not only this, but Moebius, Kain and Raziel are the only ones who knew the true identity of the creature (ie Raziel) that killed the sarafan and so it is even more unlikely that Turel would even know Raziel was the one responsible. Finally, the context of Raziel and Turel's conversation is about Raziel's return from the abyss, and it is obvious that Turel is referring to Raziel's vengeance for this.

um, so there...

Raz
11th Feb 2004, 18:34
Personally, I believe that Turel was abducted some time after Raziel and Kain entered the Chronoplast. He was probably laying low somewhere and heard the news of the death of his brethren "through the grapevine". ;)

moose562
12th Feb 2004, 22:17
turel was totally unnecesary in my honest opinion. his appearance doesnt help uncomplicate matters it only acts to sate the turel hunger everybody had!

i was happy getting to kill him in SR2!

---

Regardless of my feelings, Turel surprised me in the sense that he seemed quite happy to see Raziel and it wasn't until his posession did he want to get raziel!

something else has just sprung to mind and i would appreciate some feedback on the matter : why would the hylden want raziel out of the way? is it because with him in the reaver and the sword being weilded by kain he poses a threat to them?

oh god i am so lost

Protector_Malek
12th Feb 2004, 23:57
Originally posted by Dark Goddess
well..not so much saw than heard. I think Turel was blind, thats the impression I got. but I agree with you
yes, you're right, now that I recall.

JRootabega
13th Feb 2004, 00:25
NeoDodge's explanation makes perfect sense. It is the second post in this thread.

Caer
13th Feb 2004, 01:30
moose: I think Turel worked well to close the events that started in SR. Raziel finally gets all the souls of his bretheren, it makes for a very good excuse to heighten his TK, and depending on which camp you belong to, theory-wise, you could see it as Raziel returning all the parts of Kains soul that he used up in the creation of his lieutenants.

Since the Hylden apparently are able to see some of the timestream, they may have known that Raziel would be dangerous too them. Or something...

Protector_Malek
13th Feb 2004, 01:53
Originally posted by JRootabega
NeoDodge's explanation makes perfect sense. It is the second post in this thread.
so, you think it is plausible that turel made the connection between the killing of his brothers and Raziel so quickly???? That he "saw" raziel and inmediately made the connection?
NOT TO ME.
"I heard what you did to them".... it sounds like he already knew it was Raziel who murdered them.... otherwise it would have been something like "so it was you the one that murdered them"

Dogfight
13th Feb 2004, 03:51
It looks like Turel overheard some time ago what happened to his monstrous brothers from Soul Reaver 1 but he didn't know who exactly was their murderer. Then at the beginning of the conversation at Avernus Cathedral when he sniffs Raziel he suspects that it is Raziel back from the dead, but he is unsure, thus he says "Not possible. No. It could not be.". After this when Raziel speaks, Turel recognizes the voice besides the smell, and when he sees that this being also remembers what happened to Raziel, he puts all the pieces together and concludes that it was Raziel back from the dead that killed his brothers and has now come for him.

"I heard what you did to them... and now, you have found me at last."

Lär
13th Feb 2004, 08:44
Originally posted by moose562
turel was totally unnecesary in my honest opinion. his appearance doesnt help uncomplicate matters it only acts to sate the turel hunger everybody had!

You hit the nail on the head there!! Turel's role in this game is one big screw up, IMHO. The only reason he's even in Defiance, is to shut up the peeps that are contunially asking, "Where is Turel?" The explanation given by Ms. Hennig is, IMO, hogwash.

Amy says that casting him as Hash wasn't a recent decision, but was made shortly after he was cut from Soul Reaver.
What?? This decision was made "shortly after he was cut from SR1"?? :confused: Sorry folks, but how can Crystal Dynamics even know that they would be in business to make Defiance??

Throughout the LoK series, three major questions have existed:

Where is Turel?
Why is Janos alive in BO2?
Why is Vorador alive in BO2?


Well, question #1 has been answered. It fits the story pretty well, but I think the decision to cast him as Hash was made during the development of Defiance, not SR1. :rolleyes:

Question #2 has been answered as well. It also helps bring BO2 into the Hennig written story arc. I admire the great job they did to fill this hole.

Question #3 is till up in the air. However, seeing as how two major plot holes have now been closed in Defiance alone, I suspect that the Vorador issue will be addressed in the next game.

Later! :D

Dogfight
13th Feb 2004, 09:16
turel was totally unnecesary in my honest opinion. his appearance doesnt help uncomplicate matters it only acts to sate the turel hunger everybody had!


You hit the nail on the head there!! Turel's role in this game is one big screw up, IMHO. The only reason he's even in Defiance, is to shut up the peeps that are contunially asking, "Where is Turel?" The explanation given by Ms. Hennig is, IMO, hogwash.

Amy meant to bring back Turel since he was cut from Soul Reaver 1, what was new was simply casting him in the role of Hash'ak'gik. He was not merely put in Defiance to silence the fans, there were several important key plot reasons for bringing him back.

The first was that the Hylden spirits needed a pawn "Turel" to represent Hash'ak'gik for the Cenobites or monks to worship. The second was that the Hylden spirits needed a strong vessel to possess. I gather from Defiance that they need to feed on the energy of souls to suvive in Nosgoth, similar to Raziel. The third, was that the Hylden wanted to give Raziel a new telekinesis enhancement, so that he would be more powerful and ready to take out Kain. Lastly, it was all a part of the Hylden's plan to manipulate Raziel to achieve their own revenge.

What is more this is not an inconsistency in the series, in Blood Omen 1 the spirit of Ariel mentions: "Well done, you have found Moebius' toy. Azimuth, not content with summoning demonic thralls, stole the Time Streaming Device in order to gather creatures from other ages as well Take care of the Device, Kain."

So there was a precedent from all the way back from Blood Omen 1 for the inclusion of Turel in the era of the original game in Defiance.

Lär
13th Feb 2004, 10:21
Originally posted by Dogfight
Amy meant to bring back Turel since he was cut from Soul Reaver 1
Yes, of course. Turel was the famed "missing" brother. It makes sense to include him in one way or another.

...what was new was simply casting him in the role of Hash'ak'gik.
So, your saying that you agree with me? The Q&A with Ms. Hennig lead everyone to believe that Turel would always be Hash in a later game, after SR1. I found this extremely hard to believe. C'mon, three LoK games later, and we FINALLY get to see Turel?? :rolleyes:

Later! :D

omegafury
13th Feb 2004, 17:21
turel cant have known about the events of SR1 because one of the first things he says is "no, can't be him...impossible" or something like that, he didnt know that raziel returned from the abyss. so he cant have known of the blue corpse killing his deformed brethren.

also, turel had to have been abducted before raz's ressurection, and sent to a time before kain even made the vampires, so there is no way that turel could have known anything. the only thing he may discover is the events of SR2 as that had transpired before BO1.

erm...so there again

JRootabega
13th Feb 2004, 17:34
turel cant have known about the events of SR1 because one of the first things he says is "no, can't be him...impossible" or something like that, he didnt know that raziel returned from the abyss. so he cant have known of the blue corpse killing his deformed brethren.


Right, because whenever you hear a rumor or a message about an event, you automatically know every single detail about that event?



also, turel had to have been abducted before raz's ressurection

Prove it.

Raz
13th Feb 2004, 17:45
Originally posted by omegafury
turel cant have known about the events of SR1 because one of the first things he says is "no, can't be him...impossible" or something like that, he didnt know that raziel returned from the abyss. so he cant have known of the blue corpse killing his deformed brethren.

Not necessarily... Turel may've heard that someone was slaughtering his brethren. Of course, Raziel returned from the Abyss to a Nosgoth totally different than that he remembered. It wouldn't surprise me if, along with his clan, his name had simply been forgotten over the centuries. Obviously, his brethren would remember him, but other than them I suspect that no one remembered Raziel. So, if the news had reached Turel, I doubt that Raziel would've been referred to by name...


Originally posted by omegafury
also, turel had to have been abducted before raz's ressurection, and sent to a time before kain even made the vampires, so there is no way that turel could have known anything. the only thing he may discover is the events of SR2 as that had transpired before BO1.

erm...so there again

Uhhh... why?! :confused:

I understand your reference to the happenings of Blood Omen and Soul Reaver 2, but why was it necessary that Turel be moved to a time before Kain's empire? I don't understand how Turel knowing anything would change anything... :p

Laxely
18th Feb 2004, 19:43
I know this doesn't have anything to do with the current arguement but I thought it essential to say this.
Does anyone else think it's funny that the person who provides the voice for Turel is the very same person who does the voice of Odie in the Garfield cartoons!

Now that's what I call range.

Erving JeansBgone
18th Feb 2004, 21:04
and the guy who plays the voice of the Sarafan Lord(BO2) playd the voice of LeChuck(Monkey island 3)

Erving JeansBgone
18th Feb 2004, 21:15
and about that Turel buisness,it`s evident...

Raziel:"TUREL?!"
Turel:"Yes, Turel,that was my name then.I`v hered what you did to the others and now you have come for me"
Raziel:"The others where grotesqe but..."
Turel:"Yes i am changed...bla bla bla"

raz finds turel they both realise who they are and it`s clear from what they are talkin about that Turel was summond from the future.Why? i`m not shure but i guess he`s there to be a host for Hash or other Hylden,or he was summond to be another one of raz`s kills that would make him stronger ,to insure he would kill Kain(i doubt Turel is of his rocker in such a mannor)

Omni_Sephiroth
19th Feb 2004, 01:20
Im more inclined to think he lost his marbles.;)

Vampmaster
19th Feb 2004, 15:53
Maybe he'd only heard a description of his brothers murderer, but didn't know that the blue wraithy guy who killed them was Raziel until he got a good whiff.

Zephon
20th Feb 2004, 11:07
he WAS mad

when he first smells raziel he states that there is no blood in him,
afterwards he says his blood will strengthen him:D

Laxely
21st Feb 2004, 17:13
Not only that but he's the guy who plays Dr Silberman in the Terminator films. These people don't half get around and they're always working with each other too, for instance Tony Jay is the voice of the formidable Elder god and has been provided voice talent throughout the Legacy of kain series with the exception of Blood omen 2 which pitted kain against the Serafan Lord played By Earl Boen who also lent his voice to the character of Dr Cyborn in the forgettable animated series Skeleton warriors which was narrated by none other than Tony Jay.

Actually having looked the man up he's been in a ton of big titles so its not too suprising he's worked with everybody!