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Dan001
10th Feb 2004, 16:50
I just finished deviance, and first of all let me thank Eidos for bringing the game out for the pc (with extra's even) because i really appreciate it (LOK Rulez). I would also like to say that i love to see one more (final) episode in the series, but after that i think it must be over, because to much more episodes won't do the LOK series any good at least this is my OPINION, and yes i am a real fan.
Now i have a few questions that i hope someone can awnser.

Why did the hylden lord a.ka. the unpoken a.k.a hash needed turel as a vessel? He already had mortanius to break up the circle of 9, set the wheel in motion. So for what possible reason did mortanius bring turel to the BO1 timeline?

Was the being that Mortanius turned into at the end of BO1 infact a Hylden? Because in BO 1 it was called Hash but now i understand that hash does'nt exist, that it is just another word for God that those crazy worshippers use. And i read that if the Hylden wanted they could completely take over the bodies they possessed.

Why was it that the hylden lord was able to take possession of Janos so easily because Janos is a very powerful vampire from the ancient race, and if i'm not mistaken the hylden were just a race like the ancient vampire race, different in looks and plans but not that much different in power?

One last question now. What is a hybrid? I read this word more than once on the forum and english is not my native language so i hope someone can tell me.

So if someone can awnser these questions for me i would be very very very very happy.

omegafury
10th Feb 2004, 17:14
the hylden lord used turel as a vessel simply because he was powerful. mortanius was getting weak over time so the hylden needed a new body to get into.

i dont know about the second question because i never played BO1, but Hash'ak'gik is the name of the Hylden Lord, so Mortanius was probably changed in the same way that Raziel changes the corpses he uses.

the hylden lord could take janos because he was powerful aswell. the hylden lord may have had no body but he was not weak.
the origin of the hylden is unknown, but in the beginning of the game, when raziel fights his first group of hylden, they call him--'renegade progenitor'. progenitor means to be the father of a whole species, so go figure

a hybrid is a mix of two or more things.

Dan001
10th Feb 2004, 19:51
Thank you for you're awnser

Dogfight
10th Feb 2004, 21:10
Why did the hylden lord a.ka. the unpoken a.k.a hash needed turel as a vessel? He already had mortanius to break up the circle of 9, set the wheel in motion. So for what possible reason did mortanius bring turel to the BO1 timeline?

You should really read the two F.A.Q.'s about Defiance, before asking so many questions. See the link below.

http://www.thelostworlds.net/Defiance.HTML

Alright first off, the Hylden Lord didn't need Turel as a vessel. The Hylden Lord's spirit was in possession of Mortanius, several other Hylden spirits where in possession of Turel.

There are several reasons for bringing Turel to the time of Blood Omen 1. The first reason is that the Hylden spirits needed a false god Hash'ak'gik for the Cenobites or monks to worship. The second reason is that the Hylden spirits needed a strong vessel to possess. I gather from Defiance that they need to feed on the energy of souls to suvive in Nosgoth, similar to Raziel. Lastly, the Hylden wanted to give Raziel a new enhancement of the telekinesis, so that he would be ready to take out Kain.

Another thing Hash'ak'gik, the Dark Entity, and the Unspoken are but aliases, or other identities for the Hylden so that their presence in Nosgoth will not be revealed.


Was the being that Mortanius turned into at the end of BO1 infact a Hylden? Because in BO 1 it was called Hash but now i understand that hash does'nt exist, that it is just another word for God that those crazy worshippers use. And i read that if the Hylden wanted they could completely take over the bodies they possessed.

I already explained what Hash'ak'gik really means.

When a Hylden spirit fully possesses a vessel, draining them of much of their soul energy, they mutate into a horned deformity, this is what happens to the Vampire Hunters and the Feral Humans. Here is a picture of what they look like.

http://www.legacyofkain.com/screenshots/63.html

In Mortanius' case, things are somewhat different. Mortanius being a Circle Guardian is stronger than any normal human, and he uses elemental magic, thus when the Hylden Lord's spirit fully possessed him, and drained him of much of his soul's energy he mutated into a Demon instead.


Why was it that the hylden lord was able to take possession of Janos so easily because Janos is a very powerful vampire from the ancient race, and if i'm not mistaken the hylden were just a race like the ancient vampire race, different in looks and plans but not that much different in power?

The Hylden spirits have been changed, corrupted by the green energies of the Demon Dimension, they have been strengthened making them a threat even to Janos.


the origin of the hylden is unknown, but in the beginning of the game, when raziel fights his first group of hylden, they call him--'renegade progenitor'. progenitor means to be the father of a whole species, so go figure

Correction, they do not call Raziel "progenitor" only "traitor", here is the dialogue.

Revenants: “..Raziel… …Raziel… Fallen Hero… Renegade and traitor…"

Raziel: "…What is this? How do you know me?"

Revenants: " …Raziel, what are you? …Why should any know your name? …You are nothing…”

WraithStar
10th Feb 2004, 21:31
Originally posted by Dogfight

Another thing Hash'ak'gik, the Dark Entity, and the Unspoken are but aliases, or secret identities for the Hylden so that their presence in Nosgoth will not be revealed.


So, is "Hash" a particular Hylden or is that just a general term for all Hylden?

Dan001
10th Feb 2004, 21:34
Thanks for the reply. Sorry for not reading all the forums, but i just finished defiance and i was a bit overenthousiastic i guess.

Dogfight
10th Feb 2004, 21:34
So, is "Hash" a particular Hylden or is that just a general term for all Hylden?

It's just another term for all of them. You can add the "Dark Forces" to the list as well.

WraithStar
10th Feb 2004, 21:39
Oh. I thought that Hash was the particular Hylden that became the Sarafan Lord in Blood Omen 2.

Dogfight
10th Feb 2004, 21:54
This is why it is so confusing because the name Hash'ak'gik' is what Turel is called, yet Turel is but the clothes the Hylden spirits wear, the name is really just an alias for all the Hylden spirits. This includes their leader the Hylden Lord.

The Hylden Lord is the name used for the Sarafan Lord's true identity, although we don't really know his true original name, the title of "Hylden Lord" has become his current true name.

Umah Bloodomen
10th Feb 2004, 22:00
Q: How does the Hash'ak'gik/Turel/Hylden relationship work?
A: "Hash'ak'gik" is the name the human worshippers use for their god. The actual Hash entity is a leader among the Hylden, who has his own agenda. In Defiance, he possesses Janos. In Blood Omen, he uses the transformed body of Mortanius as a vessel. In Blood Omen 2, he appears as the Hylden Lord (AKA Sarafan Lord). When Raziel meets Turel, Turel is actually being possessed by a number of other Hylden (not the Hylden Lord). Many different Hylden did so in order to command their disciples.

Dogfight
10th Feb 2004, 22:03
The name Hash'ak'gik is still a reference to all the Hylden spirits.

The Hylden Lord doesn't say I sought an incorruptible vessel, he says: "We sought an incorruptible vessel..." when referring to Janos.

Although the Hylden Lord's spirit was the only Hylden in possession of Janos' body, his words relay that his eventual possession of Janos was accomplished by a group effort, even with him being the principal player of the Hylden. Thus the name Hash'ak'gik, does refer mainly to him but also still refers to all of the other Hylden spirits as well.

Umah Bloodomen
10th Feb 2004, 22:08
Whatever you say, Dogfight. :)

Dogfight
10th Feb 2004, 22:39
Thanks for the quote Umah.

DJpick
10th Feb 2004, 22:51
Although I'm sure these have been answered, I haven't seen in depth answers :)

Why did the hylden lord a.ka. the unpoken a.k.a hash needed turel as a vessel
Because Turel was a stronger host. Mortanius, although immortal from Guardianship was a weaker vessel. Turel is immortal naturally from his vampiric birth. Give him blood and he heals/recovers faster than a human (even a guardian I assume). Also, he would be easier to control because he was one of the deranged vampires from SR1. They weren'ttoo bright. I assume Raziel as a vampire would have been the only one to remain strong, intelligent, and normal in form to some degree.

Was the being that Mortanius turned into at the end of BO1 infact a Hylden? Because in BO 1 it was called Hash but now i understand that hash does'nt exist, that it is just another word for God that those crazy worshippers use. And i read that if the Hylden wanted they could completely take over the bodies they possessed.
Yes, in fact, the Hylden Lord didn't possess Turel. It was just a bunch of Hylden in general. But Hash Ak Gik was the name given to "Turel" by his worshippers.

The being that emerged from Mortanius was in fact the HL entity. After the Pillars fell, he was able to fully possess Janos.

The Hylden used possession as a way to break free from the Dimension, even though physically they were unable to. A good analogy would be being grounded, yet using the phone to communicate with the outside world.

Why was it that the hylden lord was able to take possession of Janos so easily because Janos is a very powerful vampire from the ancient race, and if i'm not mistaken the hylden were just a race like the ancient vampire race, different in looks and plans but not that much different in power?
HL was the strongest of the Hylden, the leader even. It's safe to assume that he coul; dpossess anyone he chose. Not to mention Janos had JUST been revived from a 500 year coma. He wasn't at full strength yet.

Besides, since BO2 happened, and time is immutable, nothing could prevent it anyways, it had to happen.

What is a hybrid? I read this word more than once on the forum and english is not my native language so i hope someone can tell me.
A hybrid is a mixing of two. Electric cars with gas engines are hybrids. A mule is a hybrid. The NGage video game system is a hybrid (phone and game system).

Just about any breed of dogs is a hybrid. It's anything that isn't pure, unique, or singular because it's been mixed. Koolade is a hybrid :)

I don't know what your language is, but if it's rooted in latin, the etymology of the definition should help.
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?r=8&q=hybrid

Another thing Hash'ak'gik, the Dark Entity, and the Unspoken are but aliases, or other identities for the Hylden so that their presence in Nosgoth will not be revealed.
Actually Hash Ak Gik was the name given to Turel by his worshippers. The other two you gave were the ones used for HL himself. Raziel himself calls HL the Unspoken.

So, is "Hash" a particular Hylden or is that just a general term for all Hylden?
"Hash" was a general psuedonym for HL. Hash Ak Gik was the name for Turel. The Hylden are just the Hylden.

The name Hash'ak'gik is still a reference to all the Hylden spirits.
No, it's a reference to Turel. Amy said so.

The Hylden Lord doesn't say I needed a powerful vessel, he says "we needed..." when referring to the body of Janos.
Of course he did. He's the leader. It's just like when ever one person recites the that USA oath thingy "We the people, of the United States".

A leader would say we, when referring to the plan that involves ALL his people. WE. the Hylden, needed Janos in order that WE could be free from the dimension THEY put US in.

Thus the name Hash'ak'gik, does refer mainly to him but also still refers to all of the other Hylden spirits.
Hash'ak'gik" is the name the human worshippers use for their god.
Couldn't have said it better myself :)

You said it yourself, HL didn't possess Turel. SO how could HAG be a name for HL, if it he was never possessing Turel?

The Unspoken is a pseudonym in reference to the Hylden. The Dark Entity is the Hylden Lord spirit, but the other Hylden spirits are also Dark Entities.
The Hylden are the Hylden. They may be unspoken by the Ancients, but these names are from Humans. HL, SL, Hash, Unspoken are names of the Hyl;den Commander/General/Leader. The Hylden is the name of They Hylden. And Turel is Hash Ak Gik, the entity worshipped and fed by the Human followers, not realizing they are keeping the vessel of the Hylden alive.

Dire
11th Feb 2004, 00:54
Originally posted by DJpick
[B]Because Turel was a stronger host. Mortanius, although immortal from Guardianship was a weaker vessel. Turel is immortal naturally from his vampiric birth. Give him blood and he heals/recovers faster than a human (even a guardian I assume). Also, he would be easier to control because he was one of the deranged vampires from SR1. They weren'ttoo bright. I assume Raziel as a vampire would have been the only one to remain strong, intelligent, and normal in form to some degree.


I wouldnt of called Turel & his brothers deranged. Also note on how raziel says turel wasnt like the rest (if i recall correctly). But still Turel couldnt sustain having the various hylden take him over for long periods of time.. I guess he wasnt as powerful a vessel really.

Dogfight
11th Feb 2004, 01:03
The Hylden are the Hylden. They may be unspoken by the Ancients, but these names are from Humans. HL, SL, Hash, Unspoken are names of the Hyl;den Commander/General/Leader. The Hylden is the name of They Hylden. And Turel is Hash Ak Gik, the entity worshipped and fed by the Human followers, not realizing they are keeping the vessel of the Hylden alive. Actually Hash Ak Gik was the name given to Turel by his worshippers. The other two you gave were the ones used for HL himself. Raziel himself calls HL the Unspoken.



Hold on, the Unspoken is the term the ancestors of Ariel and Vorador used in place of when referring to all the Hylden, not just their leader. Ariel and Vorador did thus call them because they upheld the tradition of their ancestors' oath long ago to never utter the real name of the group.


Ariel: "Your name shall remain 'Unspoken', as decreed by our ancestors."

Vorador: "But beware, an ancient evil dwells within, long Unspoken among our kind."

It is still a pseudonym for the "Hylden" even if the Hylden didn't come up with the "Unspoken" title themselves.

The humans did not come up with Hash'ak'gik, Mortanius came up with the name and he only did thus because he was possessed by the spirit of the Hylden Lord. The name was then used by the simple minded humans who believed that Turel was their god Hash'ak'gik, but the truth of the name is in its source, which is the Hylden.

This issue with the Hylden Lord spirit being the only Hash'ak'gik, while he is the original, even with what Amy said, it is still debatable and interpretative whether the Hylden spirits that possessed Turel and therefore all Hylden spirits should also be called Hash'ak'gik. Especially since the Hylden Lord spirit never says that he alone is Hash'ak'gik.

The Demonic Cult of humans worshipped Hah'ak'gik or as we know him Turel, yet all the time they thought they were worshipping him they were really worshipping the Hylden without knowing it.

Yes, the Hylden Lord spirit was the main "Dark Entity", but the other Hylden spirits themselves possesing bodies as he does, are themselves "Dark Entities" as well. This is interchangeable with Kain referring to them all as "Dark Forces" back in Soul Reaver 2.


I wouldnt of called Turel & his brothers deranged. Also note on how raziel says turel wasnt like the rest (if i recall correctly). But still Turel couldnt sustain having the various hylden take him over for long periods of time.. I guess he wasnt as powerful a vessel really.

No matter how powerful a vessel it still has its limits.

DJpick
11th Feb 2004, 01:39
I wouldnt of called Turel & his brothers deranged. Also note on how raziel says turel wasnt like the rest (if i recall correctly). But still Turel couldnt sustain having the various hylden take him over for long periods of time.. I guess he wasnt as powerful a vessel really.
Turel was pretty Fed up in Defiance. Now whether that was because of the possession, dellusions of grandeur from being made a demi god, or from something similar to his bretheren is unknown.

Besides, Raziel said the OTHERs were grotesque, he never really said what Turel was in his opinion. Compared to the others he wasn't all that bad, but compared to Kain he had devolved a fair bit.

Hold on, the Unspoken is the term the ancestors of Ariel and Vorador used in place when referring to all the Hylden, not just their leader. Ariel and Vorador did thus call them because they upheld the tradition of their ancestors' oath long ago to never utter the real name of the group.
Ariel never even KNEW an Ancient. She was born about 1 hour AFTER Janos died. And if you're referring to the SPirit Reaver, that's because there were Ancient Guradians merged with her too. But Raziel refered to HL as the "Unspoken" after Killing Turel.

Ariel: "Your name shall remain 'Unspoken', as decreed by our ancestors."
She was refering to Raziel. And that's a contextual ambiguity. Is she Saying "will remain Unspoken, or unspoken"? Is it an adjective or noun?

Besides, it coul dhave been her human ancestors, since it was said 500 years AFTER the last Ancient died, and many humans lived in a time when Ancestors still lvied. So what ancestors is she referring to, when she never knew an Ancient vampire?

Vorador: "But beware, an ancient evil dwells within, long Unspoken among our kind."
This one is obvious. It's an adjective. He said the evil has not been talked about for a long time. He wasn't actually giving it a name.

Besides, was Vorador referring to the Demons that Raziel fought? Or the Hylden that didn't even show up down there? Or even Turel?

Or could he have just been talking about the Evil of Avernus, the one that made Raziel go crazy during the K&R fight?

Too many possibilities to pinpoint it to that ONE.

but the truth of the name is in its source, which is the Hylden.
Says who?

This is interchangeable with Kain referring to them all as "Dark Forces" back in Soul Reaver 2.
Not really, because Kain didn't know who the Dark Forces were then. It was a general description used to describe an unknown entity.

No matter how powerful a vessel it still has its limits.
I never said Turel was a perfect vessel, I said he was a better one, due to the healing properties of his blood thirst.

Dogfight
11th Feb 2004, 02:11
Ariel never even KNEW an Ancient. She was born about 1 hour AFTER Janos died. And if you're referring to the SPirit Reaver, that's because there were Ancient Guradians merged with her too. But Raziel refered to HL as the "Unspoken" after Killing Turel.

I never said Ariel knew an Ancient, only as she said that her ancestors decreed that they do not refer to the Hylden as the Hylden, but as the Unspoken. Her ancestors she is referring to are likely the previous Circle Guardians and the first human Circle Guardians.


She was referring to Raziel. And that's a contextual ambiguity. Is she Saying "will remain Unspoken, or unspoken"? Is it an adjective or noun?


Ariel: I counsel only one man, and you are not he. But you will know him soon. The contagion of your kind is coming to an end.

Raziel: My kind? What exactly do you think I am?

Ariel: Your name shall remain 'Unspoken', as decreed by our ancestors. You serve the one who so brutally took my life and set this tragedy in motion. But even now, hope is at work, Balance will be restored, and your kind will be expelled forever.

Ariel is speaking of the Hylden, you could use the term "Unspoken" as an adjective and a synonym for the "Hylden".


This one is obvious. It's an adjective. He said the evil has not been talked about for a long time. He wasn't actually giving it a name.Besides, was Vorador referring to the Demons that Raziel fought? Or the Hylden that didn't even show up down there? Or even Turel? Or could he have just been talking about the Evil of Avernus, the one that made Raziel go crazy during the K&R fight?
Too many possibilities to pinpoint it to that ONE.

Vorador was referring to the Hylden, not Turel because his ancestors did not know about Turel, and he wasn't talking about Demons because he had no problem saying that Raziel looked more Demon than Vampire, 30 years before back in Soul Reaver 2.


Says who?

Let us see Amy says that the Hylden Lord was the actual Hash, we know he was in possession of Mortanius, and the humans only called Turel the name Hash'ak'gik at the request of Mortanius.

Mortanius and Azimuth were the heads of the cult, thus unless Azimuth came up with the name Hash'ak'gik who was more busy with Demons, it had to be Mortanius while possessed by the Hylden Lord.

It is a simple process of elimination.


Not really, because Kain didn't know who the Dark Forces were then. It was a general description used to describe an unknown entity.

Dark Forces might not be just a general description for an unknown entity, but instead for its plural "unknown entities". Kain could've simply said the "Dark Force" if he meant to refer to one entity in control instead of "Dark Forces".

This doesn't eliminate my argument for calling each individual Hylden spirit a "Dark Entity".

DJpick
11th Feb 2004, 05:11
Ariel is speaking of the Hylden, you could use the term "Unspoken" as an adjective and a synonym for the "Hylden".
So when did Ariel learn of the Hylden, if they had been unspoken and hidden for so long?

If human Guardians came AFTER the curse, and the curse came AFTER the banishment, when did the new human Guardians learn of the Hylden? It seemed like only 2 Guardians even knew of The Hylden, and that's because they were the original guardians.

Vorador was referring to the Hylden, not Turel because his ancestors did not know about Turel, and he wasn't talking about Demons because he had no problem saying that Raziel looked more Demon than Vampire, 30 years before back in Soul Reaver 2.
You are making too many loose associations. Janos and Vorador were depicted as a Demonic vision in the murals in SR2, does that mean they are the same demons? No. Demons doesn't mean the same race just because it's said. You are trying TOO hard to find connections. Vorador could have meant demon as in "horribly disfigured".

Besides, if the Demons were from the other dimension and allied with the Hylden then, then at that point in SR2 Vorador wouldn't have known what the demons were because the Demons hadn't shown themselves at that point yet. So how did Vorador know of these other demons when they hadn't even been known yet?

Let us see Amy says that the Hylden Lord was the actual Hash, we know he was in possession of Mortanius, and the humans only called Turel the name Hash'ak'gik at the request of Mortanius
Yet Amy spoke of Hash and Hash Ak Gik as if they were sperate beings.

Dogfight
11th Feb 2004, 05:24
So when did Ariel learn of the Hylden, if they had been unspoken and hidden for so long? If human Guardians came AFTER the curse, and the curse came AFTER the banishment, when did the new human Guardians learn of the Hylden? It seemed like only 2 Guardians even knew of The Hylden, and that's because they were the original guardians.

You answered your only question. Mortanius and Moebius knew of the Hylden because they were schooled by the Ancients, we do not know if they were the only surviving original Guardians, but it isn't far to conclude that one or both of them passed on some of their knowledge to the other Circle Guardians. Thus this would explain Ariel's comment.


You are making too many loose associations. Janos and Vorador were depicted as a Demonic vision in the murals in SR2, does that mean they are the same demons? No. Demons doesn't mean the same race just because it's said. You are trying TOO hard to find connections. Vorador could have meant demon as in "horribly disfigured".

I am not trying to find any connections, the connections have always been there.

Vorador did not mean that Raziel looked "horribly disfigured", he would have said to Raziel that he looked "horriby disfigured" if he meant that.


Vorador: I will speak plainly, then. I distrust your origins, stranger. Seeing you crawl from the putrid depths of Moebius' Keep makes me question your purpose here. And what should I make of your appearance? Not human, clearly - and more demon than vampire.

Vorador comments in Defiance about trying to retrieve the HOD many times, with his knowledge about the place he gives the impression he has been to Avernus Cathedral before, if he has been there before it is not a far thing to say he knows about Demons. Even so it is only customary for him, not to speak of the Hylden, there is no such creed when talking about Demons.


Yet Amy spoke of Hash and Hash Ak Gik as if they were sperate beings.

This is because she is talking about the three different Hash'ak'giks mentioned in the series, Turel, the spirit of the Hylden Lord, and the spirits of the Hylden that possessed Turel. She says the actual Hash'ak'gik is the Hylden Lord, but you could argue that the term also refers to all the other Hylden as well.

Lozza Mate
11th Feb 2004, 06:08
I believe that only the hylden lord took possesion of janos. when he says 'we' I believe he means the 'royal' 'we'. as in: the race needed an incorruptable vessal to begin their re-take of nosgoth, not that multiple hylden took possession at the same time.

I don't think they can possess hosts with more that one hylden at a time. they took turns speaking and the cinematography alluded to this.

Dogfight
11th Feb 2004, 06:14
I believe that only the hylden lord took possesion of janos. when he says 'we' I believe he means the 'royal' 'we'. as in: the race needed an incorruptable vessal to begin their re-take of nosgoth, not that multiple hylden took possession at the same time.

I never said that there was more than just the Hylden Lord's spirit in possession of Janos Audron.

My past reference of that conversation was merely an example in support of the term Hash'ak'gik being applied to all of the Hylden spirits, not just the Hylden Lord. If you look at the whole conversation it doesn't look like the Hylden Lord is only referring to himself, he is talking about all of his kind. Even so he does this while he alone is in possession of Janos, perhaps he is alluding to their need to use him to power their Device.


Hylden Lord (Speaking through Janos Audron.): This one is strong... good. My next move requires a more durable host. Mortals are such fragile vessels. Willing or not, you have provided the instrument of our victory.

Raziel: I wouldn't celebrate just yet.

(Raziel draws the Wraith Blade.)

Hylden Lord (Speaking through Janos Audron.): You pathetic creature. You haven't got a clue. The seduction of the Circle and possession of Mortanius; Ariel's murder; the corruption and collapse of the Pillars; all orchestrated as prelude to this moment. We sought an incorruptible vessel, and you provided one. We required the blood of our ancient enemy, and you delivered Janos Audron, having first been lured to the Heart of Darkness. Best of all, you murdered the Scion of Balance to get it. We've already won.

DJpick
11th Feb 2004, 08:09
She says the actual Hash'ak'gik is the Hylden Lord, but you could argue that the term also refers to all the other Hylden as well.
No you can't, because Amy said Hash Ak Gik was Turel.

I believe that only the hylden lord took possesion of janos. when he says 'we' I believe he means the 'royal' 'we'. as in: the race needed an incorruptable vessal to begin their re-take of nosgoth, not that multiple hylden took possession at the same time
DF wasn't refering to HL saying that multiple possessions of Janos occured, but that's what I've been saying, HL would refer to his race, just like Janos refers to his race as our race, us, we, etc in SR2.

The Demonic Cult of humans worshipped Hah'ak'gik or as we know him Turel, yet all the time they thought they were worshipping him they were really worshipping the Hylden without knowing it.
This is because she is talking about the three different Hash'ak'giks mentioned in the series, Turel, the spirit of the Hylden Lord, and the spirits of the Hylden that possessed Turel
So which is it? Is HAG the HL, Hylden, or Turel? Because it's safe to conclude if the Worshippers didn't know of the Hylden possession, that when they said Hash Ak Gik, they just meant Turel.

And Amy made it pretty clear who HAG was, she didn't refer to two of the three you mentioned in it. There was no ambiguity.

My past reference of that conversation was merely an example in support of the term Hash'ak'gik being applied to all of the Hylden spirits, not just the Hylden Lord
Wait, you said it refered to all three. And before that you said it refered to Turel. So which is it?

We've already won.
That's because the actions of Raziel freed the Hylden, not because HAG, Hash, Unspoken refers to ALL of them. HL is refering to the freedom of his people. He is the one acting on the behalf of his people. Just like Robin Hood. Robin Hood wouldn't say I, he would say we as well. Because he is robbing the rich and giving to the poor, the people he is fighting for.

I mean, Kain has don'e the same thing. He says the pillars were meant for the vampires, not for him.

Dogfight
11th Feb 2004, 09:27
Let me clarify.

First Amy's quote.


Q: How does the Hash'ak'gik/Turel/Hylden relationship work?

A: "Hash'ak'gik" is the name the human worshippers use for their god. The actual Hash entity is a leader among the Hylden, who has his own agenda. In Defiance, he possesses Janos. In Blood Omen, he uses the transformed body of Mortanius as a vessel. In Blood Omen 2, he appears as the Hylden Lord (AKA Sarafan Lord). When Raziel meets Turel, Turel is actually being possessed by a number of other Hylden (not the Hylden Lord). Many different Hylden did so in order to command their disciples.


Amy talks above about the three different Hash'ak'giks mentioned in the series, Turel, the spirit of the Hylden Lord, and the spirits of the Hylden that possessed Turel.

In the quote above she says the actual Hash'ak'gik is the Hylden Lord, but you could argue that the term also refers to all the other Hylden spirits as well. Especially since Amy doesn't specify if it is only an individual name or a group name as well.


So which is it? Is HAG the HL, Hylden, or Turel? Because it's safe to conclude if the Worshippers didn't know of the Hylden possession, that when they said Hash Ak Gik, they just meant Turel. Wait, you said it refered to all three. And before that you said it refered to Turel. So which is it?

The Hylden Lord created the myth of Hash'ak'gik, Turel is just a facade or a charade of the true Hash'ak'gik for the humans to worship, the true Hash'ak'gik are the Hylden.

Thus Turel is posing as Hash'ak'gik, the spirit of the Hylden Lord is the original true Hash'ak'gik, and you could say the other Hylden spirits are true Hash'ak'gik too since the term may apply to all Hylden spirits not just one considering they all have the same qualities as their leader. They are all just Hylden spirits after all.

It pays not to think in the mindset of Blood Omen 1, back then the original creators didn't have the Hylden planned and this is after all a retroactive continuity.

In Blood Omen 1 there was only one Hash'ak'gik, also known as the Unspoken and the Dark Entity, but Defiance rewrote all this by showing us that there wasn't just one dark influence at work, but rather a whole corrupted race at work in manipulating Nosgoth.

Thus now you have the same words representing a whole banished Hylden race, rather than simply one individual Demon.

Hash'ak'gik is likely interchangeable with the word "Hylden", the Unspoken is another term used by others for the Hylden as evidenced by the dialogue in Defiance, and the Dark Entity is usable in reference to any individual Hylden because they are all in general Dark Entities or Dark Forces.


I mean, Kain has don'e the same thing. He says the pillars were meant for the vampires, not for him.

Kain's reference to the Vampires is not the same as the Hylden Lord's reference to his kind, Kain wasn't working in a group at the time he said that, but as he usually does alone.

When the Hylden Lord's spirit mentions "we" in Defiance he was working in a group effort with other Hylden spirits, even if they weren't all in the same body.

Blue Winged Fellow
11th Feb 2004, 16:05
It may have just been the gameplay, but whenever I was fighting Janos, every now and then, he would "spawn" two hylden to aide him. I got the impression they were coming out of Janos, and not from bodies in the floor, if you take my meaning.

Based on this I would think that in fact, Janos was possessed by more than just one Hylden, and the one (ones) speaking through him could have been the Hylden Lord, but nothing he said is conclusive that he actually was. So I would go with the idea that the Hylden Lord was busy somewhere else at the time, and the ones in Janos are just normal Hylden. Many of them (considering that I killed at least 6 spawned ones before finishing Janos).

DJpick
11th Feb 2004, 20:25
It may have just been the gameplay, but whenever I was fighting Janos, every now and then, he would "spawn" two hylden to aide him. I got the impression they were coming out of Janos, and not from bodies in the floor, if you take my meaning.
No, Janos was possessed by HL, and HL alone. Amy has answered this. The HYlden spawned because once the pillars fell, HL was able to bring in his fellow Hylden to help him. Remember in BO2 when the HL was able to be freed, he pulled others with him.


Amy talks above about the three different Hash'ak'giks mentioned in the series, Turel, the spirit of the Hylden Lord, and the spirits of the Hylden that possessed Turel.
Ummmmmm, no she didn't.

"Hash'ak'gik" is the name the human worshippers use for their god
The actual Hash entity is a leader among the Hylden, who has his own agenda
At most she describes two. But the actual name for HAG is Turel. If they don't know about the Hylden, then they aren't refering to the Hylden.

And she never even mentions sthe Hylden, except that HL is the leader of them.

I mean what's the point of having one name for 3 things?

but you could argue that the term also refers to all the other Hylden spirits as well. Especially since Amy doesn't specify if it is only an individual name or a group name as well.
It sounded pretty clear to me.

the true Hash'ak'gik are the Hylden.
Dude, you JUST said that HAG refered to HL, abd it's POSSIBLE that it coul dmean the Hylden. How does it go from being arguable, to definite in one post?

cKain's reference to the Vampires is not the same as the Hylden Lord's reference to his kind, Kain wasn't working in a group at the time he said that, but as he usually does alone
Then if Kain works alone, and all other vampires from his time are did, who is he refering to?

Just because HL says we, doesn't mean the term HAG means ALL of them. Especially since I remember you saying HL didn't give himself his name/names.

Lozza Mate
12th Feb 2004, 02:10
Originally posted by DJpick
[COLOR=red]"Hash'ak'gik" is the name the human worshippers use for their god
The actual Hash entity is a leader among the Hylden, who has his own agenda
At most she describes two. But the actual name for HAG is Turel. If they don't know about the Hylden, then they aren't refering to the Hylden.


The ignorance of the worshipers does not confuse titles. We know that the body is turel, not hash. He is being used as a puppet. If the worshipers knew this they would not hesitate to call him turel, with exception to the times when turel is temporarily possessed (in which case, they would not be talking to turel, but the hylden using turel as the comunication device). They call him hash because they don't know any better.

If I told you my name was david (which it isn't), and you believed me you would call me david regardless of the fact my name isn't david, nor am I david.

I am under the impression the hylden tell worshipers/possess-ies they are one entity in order to retain a singular control and maintain loyalties amoungst followers rather than battling amoungst themselves for a following.

DJpick
12th Feb 2004, 09:36
Here's a bit I just HAPPENED to come across.

Let's put it this way -- the entity who confronts and speaks to Kain at the end of BO:LoK is indeed the being alternately known as "the Unspoken," the "Dark Entity" and "Hash'ak'gik".
That comes from Chris, who asked Amy herself. Nothing is mentioned about it meaning his race or anything else.

Dogfight
12th Feb 2004, 10:05
That comes from Chris, who asked Amy herself. Nothing is mentioned about it meaning his race or anything else.

Nothing is mentioned about the Hylden either, this quote is from before the Hylden were put into the Blood Omen 1 era in Defiance. In Blood Omen 1 originally Hash'ak'gik was only a Demon, but then Amy and the others at Crystal Dynamics did a rewrite or a retroactive continuity and put the Hylden in the place of such a being. Following this new dialogue was made to refer to all the Hylden spirits as this great evil behind the scenes.

Just as in the next game, new things will be introduced that will give us a new perspective on past events.

DJpick
12th Feb 2004, 10:35
But Amy knew she would add Turel as Hash back when he was cut in SR1, not to mention that quote came WAY after the Hylden had been established as an opposing force. They didn't pull it out of their wazoo.

besides, they can't say it's hash at one point, and then make hash a ruler of people, and then make it mean EVERYONE. ESPECIALLY when only HL possessed Mortanius.

Dogfight
12th Feb 2004, 10:45
But Amy knew she would add Turel as Hash back when he was cut in SR1, not to mention that quote came WAY after the Hylden had been established as an opposing force. They didn't pull it out of their wazoo.


Q: How did Turel come to be in Avernus?

A: This was left deliberately vague so that a future game could cover it if desired. The implication based on the story of Blood Omen is that the circle used their dimensional- and time-traveling powers to bring him to them. Amy says that casting him as Hash wasn’t a recent decision, but was made shortly after he was cut from Soul Reaver.


besides, they can't say it's hash at one point, and then make hash a ruler of people, and then make it mean EVERYONE.

Sure they can, they are the creators.

DJpick
12th Feb 2004, 10:51
Amy says that casting him as Hash wasn’t a recent decision, but was made shortly after he was cut from Soul Reaver.
That's what I said may times already.

Sure they can, they are the creators
So now a wishy washy creator suits you? Just a week ago their contradictions to what they did before annoyed you. Now it's ok with you? What gives?

Dogfight
12th Feb 2004, 10:57
Just a week ago their contradictions to what they did before annoyed you. Now it's ok with you? What gives?

I told you already, when they gave those answers if they had explained the changes in the series leading to what appear to be contradictions I would have had no problems with them.

DJpick
12th Feb 2004, 10:59
I for one don't want them to keep changing their minds. I just want them to pick a path, and blaze that trail.