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plot man
10th Feb 2004, 16:30
Yo. I'm new to all this forum malarkey, but I'm a big fan of the legacy of kain series and have just completed Defiance. I really enjoyed it, but I have been extremely bothered by what I think is a big plot hole. There were other things I was wondering about that could be explained away, but this is a pretty big one. Okay, here we go;

um, this is a spoiler by the way, but I don't know how to show that, so stop reading now if you don't want to see this

Okay, at the end of Defiance, Kain has the Soul Reaver and it is possessed by Raziel. This is at the same time that younger Kain has the Reaver at the pillars. Now, where did old Kain get the sword? Because if it is the one that he pulled out of Raziel in SR2 and he has taken it 500 years into the future, how come the young Kain still found it in Avernus.
Now, you could say that perhaps after Kain defeats the Elder God he goes back in time and plants the sword in Avernus for the young Kain to find, but if that was the case, Kain would have been united with the pure blade much earlier in history and then would have later destroyed it by whacking Raziel over the head with it, why? This would also mean that Raziel would also have the pure blade at a much earlier stage and that all of the ensuing gameplay would have been complete nonsense.
What's going on? Somebody help!

zeke009
10th Feb 2004, 16:33
when you are editing/posting a message, there are a few buttons at the top of your text window.

http:// | @ | IMG | # | PHP | List | Quote | Spoiler

just hit the spolier button and voila!

you won't spoil the fun! enjoy. or just wait... Umah will be along shortly to edit it for you. ;)

DarkWraith
10th Feb 2004, 17:06
There are two swords. but they are the same sword. if you get what i mean. one of them is the now reaver and the other is the then reaver.

DW.

bish
10th Feb 2004, 17:25
hi, plot man. welcome to the forum.

if you have played all the games, you will realise that there is time travel involved in these games, so ordinary linear story telling isn't really applicable here.

during SR2

there are several times when kain and raziel alter history when raziel refuses to kill kain at william's coffin thingy, this in turn allows kain to remove the reaver from raziel's chest (to stop him from being absorbed into the blade, thus not turning it into the soul reaver)

both these events shuffled history about, and in a way changing what will happen in the future.

but young kain at some point will have the newly imbued reaver, left there by his older self. but the younger kain will not be healed of the corruption like the older kain has (well not for about 2000 years or so :) )

those time altering events never happened before, so that is why everything must be done now.

also in BO2

if you look at kain's soul reaver at the end of the game, it is all glowing and electrified looking like at the end of defiance.

Coincidence???


bish

plot man
10th Feb 2004, 18:14
Okay, thanks for your help, but this still does not suffice.

Even if Kain was to put the reaver back so that the young Kain finds it, in the future (SR1) the younger Kain would still have to strike Raziel with the blade in order for Raziel to retrieve it as a wraith blade, so that Raziel could then imbue the blade at the vampire citadel. However, if Raziel was struck by the sword from the end of Defiance, there would be no need for him to go to the forge in the vampire citadel, as the wraith blade would already be imbued! Plus, if it was the case that Kain put the imbued reaver back for the younger Kain, what was the point in Raziel's sacrifice, since the blade only ends up being destroyed anyway?

I don't know if I'm making my point very clearly here, but hey, that's about it.
As for Blood Omen 2, I try to think of that as a completely separate game because it's plot does not fit in at all with the others.

This is namely, but not solely, due to the fact that Vorador is still alive.

plot man
10th Feb 2004, 18:22
Sorry, also, to DarkWraith, there are not two swords. There is only one;

the blade that Kain discovers in Avernus and continues to have up until it is broken and becomes Raziel's wraith blade. Which means that for Defiance Kain to have the whole, unbroken, unpossessed blade, he must have taken it from somewhere in the past, presumably when he pulled it from Raziel in SR2

Umah Bloodomen
10th Feb 2004, 18:30
Welcome to the forums, plot man. There is a SPOILER tutorial in the fifth post of this thread (http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=18226) that you may also want to look at. :)

plot man
11th Feb 2004, 18:03
Aargh! Isn't there anyone who can properly explain this? It is really annoying me!

divad011085
11th Feb 2004, 18:21
since kain needs the sword to be enhanced to defeat the hylden the pure energy will probably be drawn out to accomplish this. After kain completes this then he will return the blade to the cathedral thats just my theory of what can happen

ziada
11th Feb 2004, 18:24
ok, hopefully i can help on this:

When Raziel is stabbed by Kain in the end of Defiance, his actual soul (not the wraith blade) is pulled inside the Reaver. His soul itself is not imbued with anything and is required for the Blood Reaver to become the true "Soul Reaver" that we see in Blood Omen/Blood Omen 2/Soul Reaver. The physical Soul/Blood Reaver is not purified at any point, since only Raziels body soul is taken, so it is actually never imbued with the spirit of Ariel and the other balance guardians.

The imbued "pure" wraith blade is used to heal Kain as it is a future version of the "purified" soul of Raziel. So in short at the moment, Raziel transfers his souls twice, his body soul into the Reaver, and his wraith blade soul into Kain himself.

The imbued "pure" wraith blade also purifies Kain so that he can see the EG and uncorrupts him.

Also, I think Darkwriath meant that there are 2 versions of the physical Reaver. The Blood Reaver, which is what we see in Soul Reaver 2 and up until the end of Defiance, and the Soul Reaver, which is what we see in Blood Omen/Blood Omen 2/ Soul Reaver

plot man
16th Feb 2004, 18:09
hmm... alright then, that seems to be a reasonable explanation. It all seems feasible, except the bit about Darkwraith. Thanks mucho. I can be at peace on that one.