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Raz
9th Feb 2004, 21:46
The below post contains Blood Omen 2 spoilers:

As we know, Kain says that Janos must stay dead. Of course, many have wondered why... What is it that happens to Janos that is so terrible and so terrifying? We know that it must be something which happens after Janos is cast into the Demon Dimension at the end of Blood Omen 2. We also know that the Nexus Stone is cast into the Demon Dimension shortly before Janos is cast in by the Sarafan Lord... :p

I wonder what would happen if one combined an "uncorruptable vessel" with the Nexus Stone... Surely, Janos could be used as some bizarre biological weapon which, combined with the Nexus Stone, is immune to the effects of the Soul Reaver, which just so happens to be the most powerful weapon in Nosgoth. ;)

We know the Hylden seem to have a penchant for biology, as can be seen throughout the Hylden City. It's also unclear at this moment what effect the Demon Dimension may have on Janos... :)

Any ideas? ;)

Dogfight
9th Feb 2004, 22:01
You need to play Blood Omen 2, Defiance and read the F.A.Q.'s about Defiance to have the answers. By the way these are big spoilers. This will explain why Janos must stay dead.

By bringing back Janos from the dead this leads into everything that happens in Blood Omen 2. The Hylden Lord's spirit possesses Janos in Defiance and then uses him to activate the Hylden Gate, which causes the Hylden to come to Nosgoth with their true bodies from the Demon Dimension. The Hylden Lord then imprisons Janos in the Device, to power it and resumes his conquest of Nosgoth by going back with his spirit into his true body in the Demon Dimension and then coming through the Hylden Gate.

Check out these official excerpts.


Q: How does Defiance relate to the events of Blood Omen 2?

A: The events of Defiance cause Blood Omen 2 to be possible. During the rift when the Pillars collapse, the Hylden Lord/Hash is able to escape his imprisonment and possess Janos. This means that not only does he have an indestructible vessel for himself, but once he gets another body in BO2, he has Janos prison to use to power The Device.


Q: When the Hylden Lord possesses Janos at the end of Defiance, does he then use his body to activate the Hylden Gate at the Hylden City?

A: Yes. The Hylden Lord used the body of Janos in order to open the gate. Once the gate was opened, the Hylden could enter the Material Realm directly, and so Janos was placed in the Device.

The older Kain was trying to stop Blood Omen 2 from happening in Defiance. This is why he said that Janos must stay dead.



Click this link below for the full F.A.Q.'s.

http://www.thelostworlds.net/Defiance.HTML

HolyMoses
9th Feb 2004, 22:07
To Dogfight:

What you said is true, but a younger Kain frees Janos from the device. So the threat that the Device posses is eliminated. Therefore, I'm inclinded to believe that something even worse happens to Janos once he enters the demon realm.

On a side note, I'm also curious how Janos could fall into the realm after Kain had dropped the Nexus Stone. Shouldn't the gate already be closed? Could Janos be in some other place? I tend to think the gate was closing at this time and he's some where in the demon realm. With all the Hylden and demons around him I'm sure Janos will have an eternity of torture and probably a fate far worse than I'm willing to put thought into at this current time.

Raz
9th Feb 2004, 22:10
Dogfight:

I think you've missed the point of my theory entirely. :p

I have played Blood Omen 2 and Defiance and I have also read the Q&A's floating around. However, the reason Janos must stay dead is because something happens to him after he is cast into the Demon Dimension...


HolyMoses:

I assume that it took time for the power within the Nexus Stone to have an effect on the gate rather than closing the gate immediately... :p

Protector_Malek
9th Feb 2004, 22:13
I agree with holymoses. At the end of Soul Reaver 2, when the new memories hit Kain, he should have also remembered that he defeated the sarafan lord.... so why was he so concerned? what was he so afraid of?
Like I said, I agree with holymoses. It must be something that happens after BO2

Dogfight
9th Feb 2004, 22:17
What you said is true, but a younger Kain frees Janos from the device. So the threat that the Device posses is eliminated. Therefore, I'm inclinded to believe that something even worse happens to Janos once he enters the demon realm.


Yes, but the older Kain just got the new memories of the Blood Omen 2 events at the end of Soul Reaver 2, even with Blood Omen 2's ending with the young Kain being victorious, the older Kain would rather that Blood Omen 2 never happened.

Especially since it lead to centuries of warfare between the young Kain and the Sarafan Lord and the deaths of many Vampires.

This is what he echoes when he tells Raziel: "The Heart of Darkness must remain undiscovered. Great harm will come of its use."

Raz
9th Feb 2004, 22:20
Dogfight, trust me, it is something which happens to Janos after he's cast into the Demon Dimension... ;)

Protector_Malek
9th Feb 2004, 22:20
as always, too much speculation from you, dogfight... look at the FACTS, for FS

Dogfight
9th Feb 2004, 22:26
I am looking at the facts, we don't even know if the older Kain knows what happened to Janos after he got thrown into the Demon Dimension.

Sure Janos being thrown in is a bad thing and a good reason not to revive him, but everything else that happened before that are the main reasons for not bringing him back, Janos being trapped in Demon Dimension was just the nail in the coffin that sealed the magnitude of not reviving him.

Raz
9th Feb 2004, 22:30
Dogfight, the reason Janos must stay dead is because something happens to him after he is cast into the Demon Dimension. ;)

HolyMoses
9th Feb 2004, 22:31
Are you feeling okay, Dogfight? You're thinking is normally "Outside the box" and what you just said was pretty "in"

If older Kain didn't know what happend to Janos, then what was the use of the new memories he got in SR2? Come on man, I've read most of your posts, I know you can do better than this.

Who are you and what have you done with Dogfight, the free thinker. Did they get to you?

Dogfight
9th Feb 2004, 22:33
Of course something happens to Janos after he is thrown into the Demon Dimension, I said that his imprisonment there is what sealed the deal of Kain wanting to stop Blood Omen 2 from happening. Yet, we still don't know if the older Kain knows exactly what that is. Even so you shouldn't still overlook everything else that happened before as a result of bringing back Janos.

Raz
9th Feb 2004, 22:39
Okay Dogfight, you have your opinion and I have mine and I'm not going to repeat myself or get into a debate... :p

We could have avoided this by having you check the "I'm not so sure..." option on the poll, but it's a lil' late for that now... :p

Also, could we please prevent slinging negativity around by the bucketload please? If anyone wants to do so, could they please do it via Private Channels. I'm sure that both Chris and Umah would appreciate that, as well as myself and any additional posters... :rolleyes:

Dogfight
9th Feb 2004, 22:43
Well, I will move on beyond the issue of whether the older Kain knows or doesn't know what becomes of Janos in the Demon Dimension. At the very least, the older Kain suspects that something horrible will happen to Janos there.

From the Sarafan Lord's last statement before he throws Janos in, I get the impression that Janos will change becoming a very powerful Demon. He could even become the leader of all the Demons, posing a danger even to the Hylden.

HolyMoses
9th Feb 2004, 22:44
I never ment to throw mud. It's just I enjoy a lot of Dogfights posts. They're very detailed and desisive. Some of his thoughts and ideas of LOK challenge that of my own, some of them are right on the nose. I like it when I'm forced to think in new directions.

I do like that idea that Janos becomes the leader of the Hylden idea. That's a new one. :)

Raptor666
9th Feb 2004, 22:56
Hmm, i'm probably completely off by miles, but:

I've been wondering about how the Hylden got access to a "curse" when BO2 portrayed them as a technology-based race as opposed to the spiritual beliefs of the vampires. And also my understanding is that the Demon Dimension exists outside of time so they can come and go between times.

So is it possible in any way that Janos is himself the source of the curse? As if maybe when the Vampires open up the Demon Dimension to send the Hylden in eons ago they unleash Janos' curse upon them through the Heart of Darkness?

Probably missed something obvious with that but can't hurt to try :D.

Dogfight
9th Feb 2004, 22:56
I am skeptical of Janos becoming a biological weapon for the Hylden, he has already been a biological generator for their Device, its a little too close, but the idea of Janos having the Nexus Stone is a good one.

I don't know why but I have this feeling that for some reason Kain will need the Nexus Stone, if Janos does become a Demon Kain will likely have to fight him for it.

Raz
9th Feb 2004, 23:35
That's all I wanted Dogfight! Good form! ;)

warpsavant
9th Feb 2004, 23:58
I hope the Nexus Stone was destroyed when it 'closed' the gate. Otherwise, I would think that the Nexus Stone would be in the Demon Realm, and anyone there could just use the thing to make a new gate to go wherever they want or something silly!

Maybe they use Janos to(somehow) leave the Demon Realm?

ali_turk
10th Feb 2004, 12:26
Kain had say to raziel about the hearth of ddarkness in the AVERNUS CATHEDRAL: great harm will be come if it used. or not?

Yautjatraker/Albatraous
10th Feb 2004, 18:16
here is something that bugged me about avernus cathedial, is that kain just said janos must stay dead, but didn't explain why. had he done so, maybe raziel would have listened to him, and not fought him.

This is just a thought, and i know it would not be able to happen my way because "history is immutable", and the fight was part of the history


i am probably just babbling and am WAAAAAAAAAAY out of the box;)

plot man
10th Feb 2004, 18:54
Hello. Blood Omen 2 has numerous plot failings and I am inclined to just forget all about it as a part of the series and just enjoy it as a whole other game. Here's a couple of points;

- Blood Omen 2 is set after the events of Blood Omen 1 (well, five hundred years after), and we all know that Vorador is beheaded in Blood Omen. So how come he's still leading a vampire resistance in Blood Omen 2? It is true that Kain and Raziel changed history, but neither of them did anything that would prevent Vorador's execution.

and also;

At the end of Blood Omen, Kain is supposed to be the only vampire left alive. This, according to Soul Reaver 2, is partly why he refuses the sacrifice at the pillars, because it would mean the extermination of his race. So how come he has a vampire army at the beginning of Blood Omen 2, that he claims were left over from vampires made by Vorador (who, as previously mentioned, died before Kain was left as the sole surviving vampire)

anyone?

Raz
10th Feb 2004, 20:33
To quote the one and only Butterfly Lord:

"All shall be revealed in time"? :confused:

Dogfight
10th Feb 2004, 21:21
Blood Omen 2 is set after the events of Blood Omen 1 (well, five hundred years after), and we all know that Vorador is beheaded in Blood Omen. So how come he's still leading a vampire resistance in Blood Omen 2? It is true that Kain and Raziel changed history, but neither of them did anything that would prevent Vorador's execution.

and also;

At the end of Blood Omen, Kain is supposed to be the only vampire left alive. This, according to Soul Reaver 2, is partly why he refuses the sacrifice at the pillars, because it would mean the extermination of his race. So how come he has a vampire army at the beginning of Blood Omen 2, that he claims were left over from vampires made by Vorador (who, as previously mentioned, died before Kain was left as the sole surviving vampire)

In Defiance Vorador still gets executed, getting his head chopped off and dies, this is why the young Kain is the last of his race.

Later, the dead Vorador is somehow brought back to life, how it hasn't yet been revealed. When Vorador returns he sires or creates an army of Vampires from humans for the young Kain to wage a war against the Sarafan Lord's army as depicted in Blood Omen 2.

Lozza Mate
11th Feb 2004, 06:30
it has to be something after BO2. Kain has no reason to be fearful of the event of BO2 because he knows that in the end he defeated the saaphan lord and re-banished the hylden.

plot man
11th Feb 2004, 17:56
Okay, again I am being nit-picky here, but;

In Blood Omen 2, Kain tells Vorador that he made up his army from vampires that Vorador had created. Then he says that this is something he could never have done himself. So how could he have brought back Vorador from the dead?

I think it more likely that since (from what I can tell in the credits anyway) Amy Hennig had less to do with Blood Omen 2, this was an oversight made in the plot. Still, maybe I'm wrong and a future game will explain this glaring inconsistency.

Raz
11th Feb 2004, 18:26
Vorador's resurrection would not simply be a minor oversight... ;)

Although Amy Hennig was not responsible for the story of Blood Omen 2, I believe that she was allowed to review relevant materials such as scripts, plot details and such.

If it were an oversight, which I simply cannot believe, I'm sure that she would've made it known... ;)

Zephon
11th Feb 2004, 20:37
perhaps kains heart of darkness gives his blood restorative properties, remember on the wharfes umah said his blood culd save her, this culd explain vorardor, prob speculatin though;)

moose562
12th Feb 2004, 21:42
i totally agree about why janos must stay dead based on the information given in Defiance and Blood Omen 2.

As far as we understand from what we know from the games is that Janos must stay dead so he cant power the mass and cant open the gate.

But what of him falling into the hylden realm at the end of BO2? We don't know what happens after this incident. Is kain trying to stop janos' fate that far? We know Kain has defeated the hylden lord already so he can't be too worried about that can he!

I think its to do with janos falling into the gate itself.


I laugh to myself when i think of the end of BO2. That show down between the hylden lord and janos was pathetic!

#mock janos voice#

kain! no!

LOL! :D

ParallelReality
14th Feb 2004, 17:12
For now I'm inclined to believe that Kain wanted to prevent the events of BO2 from happening so that the Hylden never returned. I'm not saying that to be argumentative, I'm just going on what we know for now. I think it's certainly possible that Kain might have wanted to prevent Janos from falling into the demon dimension aswell, just for now its hard to say for sure. But definitely plausible. As for the Vorador being alive in BO2, well perhaps Janos revives him at some point we have not seen yet, pure guess work on my part tho. I like the idea that Vorador has been revived all along includig in the SR/SR2. I remember a thread about his crow spies and how those crows in SR may have been Voradors (like the ones from SR2) I think there are a great deal of possiblites to regards of the BO2 story and the questions it throws up into the air. I too don't think that Amy would have allowed such a huge mistake to slip by her when reading the scrpt and story of that game and that there is more going on than we know about yet. Atleast thats what I hope:)

warpsavant
14th Feb 2004, 17:40
At some point I think Kain has to return to the time he came from (SR era), the problem with Janos could be there.

WraithStar
14th Feb 2004, 18:34
Vorador's voice: "Janos is deified. The clans tell tales of him, but few know the truth..."

a74gh83
16th Feb 2004, 04:10
Going back to BO2, u tink Hash, or more correctly the Unspoken, has finally been wiped clean from the board? The hylden possesor consumed by the soul reaver? The cinematics at the end of BO suggest kain didn't use the sr.

If so, i didn't tink the hylden were capable of possesion of 'living' things? Turel possesed by a hylden seems a bit convienient. Perhaps after the 'fall' of the 'Unspoken' maybe a hylden rose up and became the next 'Unspoken'.
or
I always assumed the unspoken was an entity . What if when Vorador and Ariel mention the unspoken they are refering to the Hylden? What if the more powerful hylden could possess living things?

if ur not sure what i mean, Hash and the Unspoken have been said to be the same thing? But Hash is definetely not the one who possesed Morty as Hash is Turels nickname.

Hmm, i know that doesn't make much sense.

kakarot
17th Feb 2004, 05:28
please forgive me if this was mentioned already since i didnt read the entire thread but here goes:

Janos has wings right? He can fly, right? I cant help but wonder why he didn't just fly himself out of danger when he was tossed in the gate. I mean ya.. i know he may have been injured but come on dude.. flap your wings to safety...that was a wack confrontation for 2 mortal enemies, no doubt. LOL

van_HellSing PL
17th Feb 2004, 06:33
Well, I suppose you can't just start flying out of any position. Also, Janos could have been "paralysed" for a moment.

moose562
17th Feb 2004, 16:19
Originally posted by van_HellSing PL
Well, I suppose you can't just start flying out of any position. Also, Janos could have been "paralysed" for a moment.

Oh come on! lol, I bet flying is second nature to him! About being paralysed momentarily I think thats hilarious! We should just face it that the game was bad with a capital B. The 'death' scene was supposed to be dramatic but I think its the most undramatic thing I have ever seen. If Amy had written it I can imagine some stirring scene somewhat like Gandalf vs. the Balrog in FOTR.

The bit where time slows down like "the Matrix" had me crying. Tears of laughter and of dread intermingled at that very moment ;)

I have a theory as to why Janos never flew out! Because he suffers from narcolepsy! Just as he was thrown in he fell asleep. All that stuff about as long as the heart of darkness beats Janos' body remains intact is rubbish. We all know he had just fallen into sleep again, momentarily ;)

resevil67
17th Feb 2004, 17:03
Ok, i know this might sound really stupid and i fell like an idiot for asking this because ive been an LOK fan for so long, but does Defiance actually take place before BO2??

moose562
17th Feb 2004, 17:05
the actions in Defiance make BO2 possible, with direct reference to janos and the hylden gate and powering the mass

resevil67
17th Feb 2004, 17:29
So Defiance actually comes after BO2, but the time period they are in in Defiance and what they do in that time period is what makes BO2 occur? Am I right or still being a moron? (slaps himself in the head for not knowing wtf is going on)

van_HellSing PL
17th Feb 2004, 17:33
OK. Here's how it goes: Defiance is set primarily in the era of BO1. BO2 is 400 years after that.