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epica_4_ever
9th Feb 2004, 12:21
first of all, don't post: I hate the camera in the PC version, enough people say that, this topic is for giving arguments why you think the camera is good bad, so that actually they got some use on our opinions.

so, here's my opinion: I think they should make a patch that enables to chose between the LOK defiance and the soulreaver2 camera view.. why? some people seem satisfied with this camera, but most of us (including me) would really love to see the soulreaver 2 cameraview in defiance.. why? take for example the part at vorador's mansion where you are getting the second spear, and have to go from one side to the other side, by jumping over a couple of pilars.. if you drop, this takes 5 minutes before you can retry, and it's very hard to aim your jump with the defiance camera, so you're guaranteed that this will be very hard. If we had the soulreaver2 camera however you just would press center view so that you're looking straight at the pilar you want to jump on, you just then jump and glide till you reached the pillar.. it would be 10 times easier I think..ok, the game shouldn't be to easy, but even then you probably need a couple of tries..

PS: I like every other bit about the game though :D

Lär
9th Feb 2004, 13:24
You're right. There SHOULD have been an option to reposition the camera around the player, like SR2 and PoP:SoT. Unfortunately, we're stuck with what we have. For the most of the game, the camera position is fine. However, there are a few situations where a repostioned camera would have greatly help a series of jumps. :(

BTW, with a gamepad, the PC version plays just like the console versions. :cool:

Later! :D

epica_4_ever
9th Feb 2004, 14:05
thanks :) I'm gonna try using a gamepad as soon as I figured out why all of a sudden I keep crashing to windows whenever I want to play ANY game :p

MaximumMayhem
9th Feb 2004, 14:34
After reading many a post dealing with the controversy that the Defiance camera has stirred up, I'll add my 2 centinos..

I own the PC version of the game, and am a gamepad purist. Ive never played any Legacy of Kain game with the keyboard, so I can testify firsthand that gripes brought up by keyboard players were identical to those I also experienced using a pad.

Someone brought up a good point though. If you fail to get your head around how the directional controls react to the positioning of the camera, there will be one or two experiences that may bug you. All I can say is that if I played the game again, it would be a little easier to play. When it comes to the initial enjoyment factor that you get when playing a game for the first time, however, this sort of thing is too little too late to inspire another Defiance quest once I know what's instore. I guess you could attribute this to the 'Freshness' factor.

This might be me, but would the Defiance engine allow such a trailing camera system as seen in the Soul Reaver games?

If possible, Im sure I speak for many when I say that this 'patch' idea would truly make me get back into Defiance again and again.

Somehow, seeing as the PC versions of this instalment arent the main focus as far as $$$ figures go, I doubt a patch would be 'financially feasible'.

epica_4_ever
9th Feb 2004, 14:58
good points.. allowing soulreaver camearaview probably would be to hard in the game.. though I must say I found the camera in soulreaver a lot easier..

anyway, how do I get my gamepad to work?
I've got one and it works, but when I go to options and controlls I can only select gamepad + keyboard, not just gamepad..

Lär
9th Feb 2004, 15:44
Originally posted by epica_4_ever
anyway, how do I get my gamepad to work?
I've got one and it works, but when I go to options and controlls I can only select gamepad + keyboard, not just gamepad..

That's it. The game allows you use additional keys provided by your keyboard. I believe all of the LoK games are this way, sans BO1.

Later! :D

WraithStar
9th Feb 2004, 16:22
Originally posted by epica_4_ever
good points.. allowing soulreaver camearaview probably would be to hard in the game.. though I must say I found the camera in soulreaver a lot easier..



Personally, I had just as much trouble with the SR1 camera as I did the Defiance camera. Remember that bit near Rahab's place where you have to jump across the rafters and then run outside and have to jump across the stone gargoyle things? I thought that was at least as frustrating as anything in Defiance. What I think would have been nice (although it probably wouldn't fit into the game) is something like Kain's long-jump from BO2 where you could line it up, see exactly where you'll land, and then jump.

van_HellSing PL
9th Feb 2004, 16:35
Remember that bit near Rahab's place where you have to jump across the rafters and then run outside and have to jump across the stone gargoyle things? I thought that was at least as frustrating as anything in Defiance. Heh, there's a trick to that - it's best just to jump up and glide to the next rafter/gargoyle, it puts you more or less in the middle of it! :D

WraithStar
9th Feb 2004, 16:39
I know, but I still managed to slip up a lot :rolleyes:. Every now and then, it decided that I could glide just a little bit further than normal, and I went right off the edge. And then when I finally make it, those damn Rahabim shoot me off. Well, eventually I made it for real, but it was very aggravating. Anyway, my point was that all cameras have problems, more or less, and I didn't think that Defiance was bad.

Protector_Malek
9th Feb 2004, 16:39
Epica, I guess you would have been happier if the game had only 1 chapter, so you can finish it right away, no difficulties.
Why bother with mastering the game? let's just cut right to the end! no delays! no challenges

ninimesis
9th Feb 2004, 17:12
You want to know why no other game has so much issue with camera? Simple, because this camera truly sucks. I will explain why

Imagine you are standing on a ledge, and you are supposed to jump onto the nearby ledge in the ANGLE that is IN BETWEEN the up and diagonal up-left direction. Now you only have 8 direction keys to chose from and no in-between. So how is a person going to make the successful jump when in fact none of the direction keys let you go land where you wanted to? Of cos, you happen to be lucky the camera might shift in angle in your 100th tries so that you are able to make a successful in one of the direction key. But isn't it frustrating? And i do not think a gamepad helps since it also only have 8 direction keys. I have seen Xbox players complaining about this camera just the same as PC users

Other smaller problems include your character being hidden in view by some in-scene objects while you fight and sudden change of view while you jump.

And yes, POP:SOT does not have the problems mentioned above.

van_HellSing PL
9th Feb 2004, 17:27
ninimesis, have you ever heard about something called the analogue stick? :rolleyes:

epica_4_ever
9th Feb 2004, 17:27
lol @ protector_malek, you really are shortsighted.. I loved the soulreaver games, there too you had sometimes problems with the camera, but not as much as here.. beside from that, I like a challenge, but then it must be cause it's a challenge suppost to be in game (puzzles, monsters etc.) , strugling with a camera view that every PC gamer finds irritating and has a hard time to learn is not what I call a challenge.
As to the solution: a 'center view' button would have fixed a lot

Umah Bloodomen
9th Feb 2004, 18:11
Play nice and constructively please. Thanks. :)

Dad
9th Feb 2004, 20:12
yes I agree about the camera thingy, but for the love of me why
please tell me why cant they get the save feature right? Man poor Raziel is wore out from running back up and around every time he falls.
good thing he stopped smoking. :D

WraithStar
9th Feb 2004, 20:54
I agree completely. I was so excited when I heard that Defiance would have the option to save anywhere. It didn't occur to me that it just couldn't load anywhere:rolleyes: . Savepoints get annoying after a while. I like being able to load exactly where I saved.

Bozo
10th Feb 2004, 00:42
Why should I need to buy a game control pad too?
I have always played with keyboard and mouse. If EIDOS just gave us a normal camera control position like in 99% of the 3d jump and run games for the PC it would help a lot.
The graphics are fabulous but I am totally bumped out of the game play control and camera views.

Sorry Eidos, but you forgot to test the gameplay on PC.....

corwin
10th Feb 2004, 05:43
I do not remember seeing an analog gamepad stated as one of the recommended requirement

van_HellSing PL
10th Feb 2004, 07:09
Hey, I finished the game only using keyboard, so a pad is not essential.

LegalEvil
10th Feb 2004, 07:17
Im a polite person, so I want to be polite. Despite buyng this PC game and seeing a beatiful, well crafted, finely polished, bug-free code, rich sound ambience and music, being ABSOLUTELY INPLAYABLE for me -personally- is a higly dissapointing.

I'm just a PC user, I'm atracted for good locking titles like this, I just wanted some hours fun at home. No way.

My brain is just accomodated to more traditional camera views and keyboard+mouse controls. So tring to play this is just sikening. Figure, you buy a car and the drive-wheel is, uh, a triangle. You can say yourself "I just will teach myself...". But no, you do say to the car dealer "exchange the thing for the real thing".

Don't need to reply. Just awaiting EIDOS to act profesionally and release a patch so we could be able to enjoy the thing in the box.

Have a good day.

Lär
10th Feb 2004, 07:31
Originally posted by corwin
I do not remember seeing an analog gamepad stated as one of the recommended requirement

Actually, it is on the "Recommended" side of the requirements table.

Later! :D

Lär
10th Feb 2004, 07:38
Originally posted by Bozo
If EIDOS just gave us a normal camera control position like in 99% of the 3d jump and run games for the PC it would help a lot.
The graphics are fabulous but I am totally bumped out of the game play control and camera views.

Sorry Eidos, but you forgot to test the gameplay on PC.....

Eidos is just the publisher. I'm sure there are some Eidos QA folks the give it a brief "once over", but that's it.

The PC and Xbox versions were ported by Nixxes Software (http://www.nixxes.com). The were responsible for creating the appropriate calls to the input APIs. They did a good job with BO2, and SR1 & 2. I don't know what they were thinking when they did Defiance. Makes you wonder... :cool:

Later! :D

epica_4_ever
10th Feb 2004, 12:49
I just finished the game this morning, using keyboard and mouse! :D I think the camera is one of the harder ones to master in any game, but I think you all should bring up enough patience :) cause it will be rewarded.. most of the game it's not that bad, it's just the jump parts where you have to jump over and over again.. but don't let that spol it all for you :)

TempusEdeX
10th Feb 2004, 13:40
The camera which exists in the Defiance is a rather UNIQUE try. As u all probably saw. Most of the time the camera is static and and the view only moves as the character moves. Which gives the game a sort of a Residnet Evil feeling. Some of u know what im talking about. On the other hand movement is determined by the camera view. Which means right is right on the camera view not the right of character. Some may rember that something like this existed in SR1. But then camera was a standard 3rd person. To be honest it creates a unique feeling when u are going throw a curved corridor and u just keep forward pressed and the character follows the camera. The only flaw is the sensetivity. If the work that out and some smaller bugs out of it, it will be a pleasure to play.

straw
10th Feb 2004, 13:45
Originally posted by Lär
Actually, it is on the "Recommended" side of the requirements table.


What do you mean? Have you played Microsoft flight simulator? It clearly states a joystick is among the recommended requirement, although you still can play with keyboard alone. Nowhere is said the same for a gamepad for defiance. When i read the requirement, I would have thought i can enjoy this game in its fullest like any other games, i.e. just enough to fulfill recommended requirement listed.

epica_4_ever, you said its good to have patience in making jumps. I beg to differ, jumping should not need patience, it is not the same as having patience to solve the puzzles, slowly uncovering the story, etc.

HolyMoses
10th Feb 2004, 13:48
To all those people complaining about lining jumps up.

Why not just switch into first person mode and line it up then?

Fear the Analog controler!

straw
10th Feb 2004, 13:52
you cant use the mouse to "line" your character in the desired direction. Your view may be changed, but the character is still facing in the same direction

HolyMoses
10th Feb 2004, 14:01
Originally posted by straw
you cant use the mouse to "line" your character in the desired direction. Your view may be changed, but the character is still facing in the same direction

Really? Wow, you PC users really got the lame deal on that. I'm so glad I bought the PS2 version

xarax
10th Feb 2004, 14:42
1st person view does change the direction that the player is facing. It does NOT change the issue of direction buttons not matching the player's direction for a jump.

Please, CD, don't ever think about using the cinematic camera in any sequel. You want MORE players, not fewer players.

For PC players, there are suggestions about getting an analog gamepad thing, which I cannot use. I don't play console games at all, because the gamepads are useless to me.

Go to the control options and turn off the mouse. The mouse is worse than useless, it is counter-productive. Only use the keyboard. Change the default mapping from WSAD directions to numeric keypad directions (i.e., change the left-handed direction controls over to right-handed direction controls). Then remap some keys for actions: A for attack, S for TK, Z for jump-attack, X for TK-aim, Q for autoface, left-shift for sneak. You'll find yourself sneaking quite often, just to maintain control and not fall off a ledge.

In the first chapter, there is a training room with dummies. Save your game at the checkpoint on the ledge, and replay that room about a dozen times to memorize the attack moves. By about chapter 6, you will definitely need those moves, and get very good at dodging. You can only beat the animated statues by teasing them, then dodging their attacks, then counter-attacking and moving away to repeat the process. Random TK attacks when they are vulnerable also help.

In this game, Raziel is definitely the harder of the two players to control in jumping, gliding, attacking, dodging. If Raziel was left out of this game, it would be much shorter and much less frustrating.

And just forget about the acquired special attacks. The status information panel simply says "MOVE+ATTACK" to activate a special attack, but it never works. Just press the A and Z buttons like crazy, be sure autoface is selected, dodge, and hope for the best. Not my idea of a fun game.

The 3 prioritized rules of business:
Get the money first.
Find the market.
Deliver the product or service for that market.It seems that CD is trying to fit the market to the product, rather than fitting the product to the market. Simple market tests would have revealed that the cinematic camera had serious issues with control and visibility. The SR2 camera had full 360-degree view and yielded gorgeous views with no control issues.

btw: It seems like SR2 never happened from the context of Defiance.

2 cents worth. Your mileage may vary.

Lär
10th Feb 2004, 15:13
Originally posted by xarax
Simple market tests would have revealed that the cinematic camera had serious issues with control and visibility. The SR2 camera had full 360-degree view and yielded gorgeous views with no control issues.

The cinematic camera, overall, is just fine. CD left out rotational control of the camera, which SR1 & 2, and PoP:SoT have. Camera lock, during critical jumps, would have been nice as well :(

Later! :D

van_HellSing PL
10th Feb 2004, 15:26
xarax - you are _VERY_ wrong there. You seem to think everyone is the same as you, but there are lots of players who liked the cinematic cam.

corwin
10th Feb 2004, 16:11
Well, let's see who are the ones who love the camera... hellsing, lar, holymoses, legacyofraziel, oh and not forgeting that blincblinc
Its surprising to see the same old few fan boys defending the cause for the camera. I wonder i always see new faces complaining about the camera, but end up getting flamed by the same old fan boys.
*shake my head*:rolleyes:

Later! :D

zeke009
10th Feb 2004, 16:20
Every "camera" thread should contain an image like this...
http://images.southparkstudios.com/media/images/602/602__image_09.jpg

Leave that dead horse alone, it's not going to change.

HolyMoses
10th Feb 2004, 16:22
Originally posted by corwin
Well, let's see who are the ones who love the camera... hellsing, lar, holymoses, legacyofraziel, oh and not forgeting that blincblinc
Its surprising to see the same old few fan boys defending the cause for the camera. I wonder i always see new faces complaining about the camera, but end up getting flamed by the same old fan boys.
*shake my head*:rolleyes:

Later! :D

I never said I liked the camera. There are a few posts in here where i say I don't like it, and compair PoP as a better camera system. It's not as bad as people say. It's just something new that one has to get use to. Why isn't there a poll about this?

zeke009
10th Feb 2004, 16:29
Originally posted by corwin
Well, let's see who are the ones who love the camera... hellsing, lar, holymoses, legacyofraziel, oh and not forgeting that blincblinc
Its surprising to see the same old few fan boys defending the cause for the camera. I wonder i always see new faces complaining about the camera, but end up getting flamed by the same old fan boys.
*shake my head*:rolleyes:

Later! :D
You can add me to the list of liking the camera and I was one person complained about it the most when I first got the game. I hated it!! I hated it silly!!! But once I quit complaining and got back to playing, I realized I (this is just me here) didn't give it a shot at first. It's not that bad, in fact it's not bad at all.

Not everyone likes change, but you can't stop it.

Chubben
10th Feb 2004, 16:52
I'm browsing these forums for a long time, and when the game came out in in November i was really scared that the camera was that bad as some of you are all claiming.Since i'm a PAL player i had to wait till Februari.
I got the game two day's ago.Finished it yesterday.

It was amazing.:eek:

Never had any problems with teh camera!!Jumping puzzels weren't any harder than at any other game.
I thought it looked great!!Superb game.Too Many words for it!
Thanks CD and Eidos.

P.S. I have the PS2 version.

zeke009
10th Feb 2004, 17:00
Originally posted by Chubben
..Never had any problems with teh camera!!Jumping puzzels weren't any harder than at any other game..
The gripes you have read here originate from the PC version when playing without a gamepad. Using the mouse+keyboard takes sometime to get the hang of.

But none the less, it's a great game isn't it?

WraithStar
10th Feb 2004, 17:06
Absolutely. It's one of the best games ever :D

Lär
10th Feb 2004, 17:44
Originally posted by corwin
Well, let's see who are the ones who love the camera... lar...

I never said I "loved" the camera. As I stated, the camera is fine, but it does need some work. The ability to rotate and lock would be a good feature to have.

Also, the gripes about the camera started when the game was released back in November. In addition, some of the prerelease reviews gave the camera a "thumbs down". I ask that the "pro-camera" advocates do their homework before saying "it's only PC users complaining." Thank you.

Later! :D

NeoDodge
10th Feb 2004, 18:11
Hi guys ! Just a suggestion : try the "keyboard only" controls, just for fun. I've been playing like this for a good part of the game, till I decided to try the control pad (PS2 style). Well, I ended up finishing the game using the pad only for fights, finding the keyboard was somehow much more practical when some dexterity is required. lol. Guess it's just me, there.
As for the cameras, they might truly be the crappiest thing I've ever experienced in video games, yet they give another dimension to the game, making it feel more movie-like, as was said before (guess that's why it's called cinematic camera, duh :p ) so even if i woudn't be against some way to change the perspective, I guess having it that way isn't THAT bad.

Lär
11th Feb 2004, 19:46
Originally posted by NeoDodge
...try the "keyboard only" controls, just for fun. I've been playing like this for a good part of the game, till I decided to try the control pad (PS2 style). Well, I ended up finishing the game using the pad only for fights, finding the keyboard was somehow much more practical when some dexterity is required. lol. Guess it's just me, there.

I decided to play through a third time, using just keyboard controls. After mapping the keys to my liking, I must say, keyboard only is certainly a viable way to play. Since I'm an avid FPS style gamer (i.e. UT2k3), I left directionals set at WASD. I then set all of the "actions" to various keys on the numpad. Believe or not, I am playing much better with this setup than with the gamepad!! I was shocked!! I was like, "Holy crap, why didn't I play like this before??". However, there is one thing wrong. Right now I'm back in chapter 3 where Kain is supposed to move a block to obtain Maleks shield. Well, for some odd reason, it will only let me move the block from side to side, and not forward to back. :mad:

Although the keyboard seems a to be good control device for me now, the camera still needs work.

I will share my keyboard config with anyone who wants it.

Later! :D

xarax
11th Feb 2004, 21:04
In addition to messing up the jumps, the cinematic camera also messes with block puzzles. PITA. Just keep trying different approaches to the block, and hopefully the camera will randomly tweak itself into just the right angle so that you can move the block in the correct direction.

And if you think that's difficult, just wait until you see what's up (literally) in chapter 8.

Solin
11th Feb 2004, 21:33
Will you stop it the camera is fine and that includes the dizzy vampire forges, but i did miss being able to put raziel in a corner and moving the camera to get a better look at him.

WraithStar
11th Feb 2004, 23:02
For the block puzzles, don't push the blocks. Just tap action to shove the block one square forward at a time. It's a pain, but it works.

Bozo
12th Feb 2004, 08:32
okay, I have been playing a few days now since my last post. Once you get through the most frustrating gameplay ever it tends to get better, but still I can't get used to the camera moving around while the character moves around. It just doesn't give me the freedom of looking in the corners and directions I want to. Okay, you have the free look mode, but that doesn't help anything when you want to move in a direction. I also am irritated by the fact that the action figure makes several steps when pushing a direction key. I know, the crouch button is there too, but it requires to be held an extra key alongside with the direction key. Why isn't there a normal walk and a running mode like in so many other games?

corwin
12th Feb 2004, 15:59
Originally posted by Bozo
I also am irritated by the fact that the action figure makes several steps when pushing a direction key. I know, the crouch button is there too, but it requires to be held an extra key alongside with the direction key. Why isn't there a normal walk and a running mode like in so many other games?

Do you notice that there is NO USE for the sneak button other than the one you mentioned?
You obviously cannot sneak up an enemy as most of the time, you will be ambushed.

The Warrior Servant
13th Feb 2004, 11:17
Let me first say I'm a PC Keyboard user and I absolutely HATE with a vengeance this camera style.

For all of you out there that say you can adapt to the camera, let me tell you a story. When I first played SR1 the controls were unfamiliar but I said "I'll Adapt", 15 mins latter I had mastered the controls, at times I may have had a minor slip up but none the less I had mastered it. Now I've tried to adapt to Defiance’s camera but Its been at least 4 hours SIXTEEN TIMES the time it took to adapt to SR1 and I still haven’t adapted, so to all those Defiant players out there that ask "oh, why are you making such a big deal over the cameras!" I think THIS explains why.

Now does any know if, has any one talked to, has any one had any communication with the (and I'll let you guess with profanity I'll use here) developers of this fallacy (the cinematic camera) to see if a patch to fix** this problem and I repeat THIS PROBLEM, is planned, and if not why not? We can second-guess about the global tyranny of capitalism being the reason, but I'd like to hear it directly from horses [synonym for 'bottom'] mouth, so to speak.

I will admit that this cinematic camera is interesting but not worth the aggravation that it ultimately brings an otherwise sane individual too.


** By "fix" I refer to the development of the more standard 3rd person "following camera" like those seen in previous LoK games as well as other great Eidos titles such as Tomb Raider or Hitman.

Bozo
13th Feb 2004, 14:53
Originally posted by The Warrior Servant
Let me first say I'm a PC Keyboard user and I absolutely HATE with a vengeance this camera style.

Now does any know if, has any one talked to, has any one had any communication with the (and I'll let you guess with profanity I'll use here) developers of this fallacy (the cinematic camera) to see if a patch to fix** this problem and I repeat THIS PROBLEM, is planned, and if not why not? We can second-guess about the global tyranny of capitalism being the reason, but I'd like to hear it directly from horses [synonym for 'bottom'] mouth, so to speak.



I agree with all your previous points.
I think it will take a while before EIDOS does anything, and if they do they will search and blame the transcoders for the PC platform (don;t know companyname, but it's listed before in this forum). Clearly something went wrong wit the testing phase of the project or they did not have any time because of deadlines, which I think can be very hard ones, cause a lot of money is at stake. But definitely MUST COMPLAIN to EIDOS about this to the official channels before anything gets done.
Anyone knows which persons these are?

ParallelReality
14th Feb 2004, 00:59
I hated the camera to start with and i even had to quit the game for an hour on Raziels first level. But after awhile I just seemed to get used to it. Now I really like it. Okay i admit sometimes it's still a pain in the rear, like during a fight and suddenly u can't see anything because that wall is in the way or a piller obstructs ur view. But then all the latest LOK titles have been like that really. All this and a keyboard only PC user saying it too. Just requires patients and persistance.

AndaPanda
14th Feb 2004, 02:03
I'm also a PC player and I used the keyboard to play Defiance... What can I say.. The camera isn't THAT bad, except for the jumping puzzles, like most of you said. I just HATED Chapter 8, when I had to glide across pillars in the mansion courtyard. Believe it or not, I spent 2 DAYS trying to get from one side to the other and I COULDN'T. Now I don't know if this is just me or if there's a problem with my copy of the game... I doubt it. But when you're on top of a pillar and the camera is facing your character, and when I say "facing", I mean you see Raziel from the front, and you have to make a leap of faith towards another pillar that you can't even see on the screen, but you know is there.. That's no fun:mad: And when you're an obsessed fan of the LOK series and you've finished all the games several times and you know there's NO other way to advance in the game but manage that stupid jump... That's even more frustrating.:mad: I was only able to finish the game because someone was so kind and sent me a savegame just past that jumping odissey. Now I'm playing the game for the second time, and indeed the jumps don't seem SO difficult anymore.. I mean I only spend half an hour on a jumping puzzle now, as opposed to 2 or 3 or God knows how many hours I spent on each of these puzzles the first time. Right now I'm back at Chapter 4. Wish me luck :rolleyes:
Now I'm not saying the environments in the game aren't great.. Because they're breath taking. And this new cinematic camera does allow us to enjoy the "scenery" more. But as for gameplay, I'd rather have my old camera style, thank you.
Another thing I liked about the old camera was that I could truly feel like I was the character when playing.. And it was so much more exciting. I didn't feel like I was just controlling a puppet that just went around the corner again and I can't get it out of there because I can't see it, while the health meter goes down because the puppet is attacked but I don't know by whom or how and I can't escape because I can't SEE anything :(

Yeah so anyway.... Sorry for the long rant but I just needed to get this off my chest. Thanks for reading.

WraithStar
14th Feb 2004, 02:08
With the pillar jumps, that might be a glitch. I found that area to be very annoying, but I don't remember a leap of faith like you described. I think that the camera was roughly behind Raziel for the whole jumping sequence, although it's been a while since I played and I could be mistaken. Have you tried the unofficial PC patch? Just make a backup of your saves first because it's not supported and if it messes up the game, you have reinstall from the CD's. (I haven't tried the patch myself yet, though. I will when I get around to replaying.) Good luck this time through:)

AndaPanda
14th Feb 2004, 02:18
Many thanks for the advice, WraithStar. I have tried the patch, and for some reason my game crashes in the courtyard with Malek's statue all the time (first chapter with Kain). I have kept my previous saves in another folder, so I uninstalled the game and reinstalled it, v 1.0, no patch. Put the savegames back where they belong. Now it works just fine and I can get past that point, but ALL MY CUTSCENES IN THE DARK CHRONICLE ARE MISSING! :eek: :eek: :eek:, as well as all the bonus items/arcane tomes, which are in my inventory in the in-game menu, but for some reason aren't to be found in the Bonus Materials section:( I just loved watching those scenes :( I swear I'm going to have a stroke.

ParallelReality
14th Feb 2004, 02:27
@Andapanda, and i was thinking about trying that patch aswell. Sorry to hear it didn't work out. Think I'll give it a miss now.

Like everyone else I too would choose the old camera over the new. Something is lost with it. I feel less freedom and more restricted with the new system. No amount of practice will get rid of those annoying points at which enemies become unseen or the points at which the camera cant make up its mind where it wants to be. But despite all the gripes with the new camera it would seem we're are stuck with it. It can be adapted to atleast as many attest to hopefully CD will live and learn from this little forray with a new camera.

WraithStar
14th Feb 2004, 02:47
Andapanda, if you're crazy enough to use regedit, you can toggle the bonuses and Dark Chronicle material back on, but playing with regedit is very dangerous and I do not advise it. Having said that, if you run a search for keyword "regedit" you will come up with a thread about SR2 that gives instructions for how to find the folder. Go to the Defiance folder and there are fields for the tomes and for the Dark Chronicle, but I don't know what they are called. All I know is that there is something like a "Kainscount" and "Razscount" that has to be set from 0 to a to get the tomes active. However, given how sketchy my memory is right now, do not do this unless you find the exact information somewhere else. I do not want you to damage your PC.

AndaPanda
14th Feb 2004, 02:50
Well I only wanted to try the patch so I could use the codes for cartoon Kain and such, because I have never experienced ANY glitches with Defiance the first time I played it. And I attribute my failure at the pillars section to the lack of a gamepad, although I don't know if it would have really made a difference... I have an imported US version of the game and I've read that the PC codes only work with the patch previously installed. For some reason, those codes didn't work either, and now all I managed to succeed is losing all my scenes in the Dark Chronicle and all the other bonus materials. Now I have to start all over again. Lucky for me, I was only at Chapter 4 this time around.:rolleyes:

I'm not saying that you shouldn't try the patch, don't get me wrong. I'm sure it works for other people, otherwise it wouldn't have been released. :) If you try it and it works, please let me know what I'm missing.... So I can throw myself off a cliff :(

AndaPanda
14th Feb 2004, 02:54
WraithStar, thank you, I'll check that out in a minute. And if I can't figure it out, well... I was going to play the game all over again anyway, so I'll get my scenes and everything else back... Ugh :rolleyes:

WraithStar
14th Feb 2004, 02:55
Don't be sad. Maybe they'll unofficially patch the unofficial patch.

corwin
14th Feb 2004, 13:53
I sympathize all of you for the troubles you have gotten into from this Defiance camera. This camera really deserves a D for Defiance grade. Although some of you may feel it only worth a F. But i am sure the die hard fan boys will give it an A. But fans will be fans, and fans can be irrational in their thinking sometimes.
But there is one point i want to make though, there is nothing wrong with using a built in cinematic camera, but it has to be done in the right way, like Prince of Persia: sands of time. Sadly to say, the Defiance team does not have talented programmers like those in ubi soft, and that is the main reason why you are are suffering from this camera truma now. God blesses all of you.

Now we know that the defiance team has just taken charge of the tomb raider series, you can pretty much expect what sort of camera you will be getting if you are Lora Craft in future games. But then, it is well-known that the best days of the tomb raiders series have already gone, and now it(TR) is only a cesspit.

darkmonkey
25th Feb 2004, 16:57
Could one of you please tell me where to get the unofficial patch, I can't find the thing anywhere.:confused:

Umah Bloodomen
25th Feb 2004, 19:08
Originally posted by darkmonkey
Could one of you please tell me where to get the unofficial patch, I can't find the thing anywhere.:confused:

You can find it here. (http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=33303) Please note that it does not affect the camera in any way.

blincoln
25th Feb 2004, 20:11
and fans can be irrational in their thinking sometimes

Kind of like people who are so arrogant that they assume because they dislike something, so must everyone, right?


Now we know that the defiance team has just taken charge of the tomb raider series

No.

Crystal Dynamics has three teams. The new Tomb Raider game is supposedly using the engine from Defiance, but AFAIK not the team itself.

xarax
25th Feb 2004, 21:21
Originally posted by blincoln
Kind of like people who are so arrogant that they assume because they dislike something, so must everyone, right?
/snip/

Vice versa: Same goes for those arrogant people that assume because they like the camera that others who dislike camera must be morons.:mad:

blincoln
25th Feb 2004, 23:53
I don't think people who dislike the camera are morons.

People who dislike the camera and then go on multi-month tirades about how it ruins the game, how the series ended with SR2, how anyone who says the cinematic camera is cool is a shill for Crystal Dynamics, how the game is somehow unplayable even though probably 200,000 people have completed it at this point, how games designed for consoles are somehow inferior to those designed for PCs, how all games should have boring interfaces and cameras that make them all look alike, et cetera... well, that's a different question.

rikbriant
26th Feb 2004, 00:37
Originally posted by van_HellSing PL
xarax - you are _VERY_ wrong there. You seem to think everyone is the same as you, but there are lots of players who liked the cinematic cam.

So far VH your the only person that says you like it.. :P

corwin
26th Feb 2004, 00:52
Originally posted by blincoln
Kind of like people who are so arrogant that they assume because they dislike something, so must everyone, right?

If i am not wrong, you are a fanboy yourself



[i]Crystal Dynamics has three teams. The new Tomb Raider game is supposedly using the engine from Defiance, but AFAIK not the team itself.

Listen everyone, he said the new Tomb Raider game is most likely to be using the engine from Defiance. This means chances are the camera will be the same as in Defiance.

Take note.

The Amazing Rando
26th Feb 2004, 00:57
Originally posted by rikbriant
So far VH your the only person that says you like it.. :P

Actually, no, there's multiple people in this thread who say they either like the camera, and more who say it's fine. Just because we like the camera does not mean we think it's perfect or that it can't be improved, it is possible to like something without it being 100% perfect. I myself enjoyed the camera, but I'll admit there are a few places where it could be modified for better playing. I liked the camera and I had absolutely no problems with the way it played due to the new camera (except for the 1st level where 2 times I ran through a doorway w/ Kain and went right back the way I came as it switched). After maybe 5 minutes I found that the character acted just as I would like, flawlessly doing my bidding.

I also disagree with a statement in one of these threads about how the right analog stick (or it's equivalent-the mouse on PC if I understand correctly) is useless. Maybe that's part of the problems some people are having. If you use the right analog stick, find it even easier for some things and I think it adds to the playability.

Just because not all the people on the boards care much to add how they like the camera 9yet again) doesn't mean they don't exist. In fact, if you look at another thread out here, there's a poll about the camera. a little more than 40% (last I checked) found it perfectly fine, and even more found it to be pretty good, though not perfect. A regular amount were neutral, and then the others hated it or disliked it mildly (or however you want to word it). Overall though, the majority of votes were pro-camera, and it's an even wider margin if you go from neutral up.

hmm, here we go (http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?threadid=33964) . As it stands, there are more people voting for the the camera that they really liked it, than those who dislike it in any way (the last two columns). So far it's a clear majority of forum members (most notably regulars-ie not those who signed up for one day to bash something/say something's cool/ whine about the end and then disappear after 2 total posts.) are in favor of Defiance's cam.

corwin
26th Feb 2004, 01:28
Originally posted by The Amazing Rando
hmm, here we go (http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?threadid=33964) . As it stands, there are more people voting for the the camera that they really liked it, than those who dislike it in any way (the last two columns). So far it's a clear majority of forum members (most notably regulars-ie not those who signed up for one day to bash something/say something's cool/ whine about the end and then disappear after 2 total posts.) are in favor of Defiance's cam.

For goodness sake, do you know simple maths?
btw, its the last 3 columns (not last 2) that shows people who do not like the camera.
As of now, the number of people who like the camera is 18. the number for those who dislike or even hate it is 23.

Can you comprehend how bad things is when more than 50% of the gamers are dissatisfied with the camera?

Bozo
26th Feb 2004, 03:24
Originally posted by blincoln
I don't think people who dislike the camera are morons.

People who dislike the camera and then go on multi-month tirades about how it ruins the game, how the series ended with SR2, how anyone who says the cinematic camera is cool is a shill for Crystal Dynamics, how the game is somehow unplayable even though probably 200,000 people have completed it at this point, how games designed for consoles are somehow inferior to those designed for PCs, how all games should have boring interfaces and cameras that make them all look alike, et cetera... well, that's a different question.

I think playing a console (like X-Box or PS2) and PC is just different gaming experience. In the early days I had a joystick on my C64 (yes!). The games were made for joystick then, you wouldn't dare to play the game on keyboard if there was any config available. The games were just the joystick type of games. Later I went to Amiga and I got a mouse with the game experience. Different games were being made, requiring the mouse interface and I must say it was always logical and had a natural feel ingame playing. But that could also be that we just had to cope with what was at hand and we forgave the programmers a lot, because things were difficult enough to make everything allright at the first release.
But today we have the PC which is so much more sophisticated in dealing with graphical interface and keyboard config experience has been tested thoroughly, from games like Doom(!) till Quake III, Unreal Tournament which all had 3D gaming, fast action requiring a good 3D view for the game player. Without a good feel of playing and cameraview, games like QuakeIII or Unreal Tournament or Counterstrike would not be playable and not successfull. I don't think games like these are playable on X-box or PS2 game pad controllers. It just needs the keyboard and mouse for extreme precise movement and aiming.
Now if we look at the LoK Defiance game, I think it was mainly designed for X-box(is it available for X-Box?) or PS2. You can definitley tell by the lack of more configurable movement keys, camera views, zoom modes etc. On a console box it's not really missing anything, but on a PC there definitely is missing many standard configurable options, hence my opinion. The portal to PC platform is in this case really a bad and unfinished job! PC players can't be forced into a game which they can't configure to their needs as they are used to like in other games. The PC player feels like the game isn't finished. E.g. : the main character cannot walk normal. It runs in 3 or 4 steps, making it sometimes impossible to move the character to a precise location to make a difficult jump. Well, there actually is a crouch key, but the character then really moves slow, taking too much time when time based action puzzles have to be made. the the PC player is confronted with the camera view. Really, if you are used to Counterstrike, Unreal Tournament, well I don;t need say more. The thought arises that he thinks about the **cking retarded programmer who hasn't added a simple thing as configurable cameraview! So frustration grows and this is perhaps where console players don't know any better than to just keep trying and trying, ignoring the annoying things coz they are used to it from so many other games they've successfully played to an end. It could be that this crappy control play is standard on action based gameplay on the consoles. It sure would if it was a C64 game! But hey, those days should be over by now!!! I think players both on console and PC have the right to play the game as they want. It's just a service the maker of the game makes to their customers, and on PC game platform it is fairly standard, now and then a ported game from console really messes things up. But mostly they were not as lacking in comfort for the player as in Defiance. Defiance really is a bad, bad, bad conversion....

And again, Graphics are superb. No question about that. Storyline Still great and wants me to follow to the next game. Music is okay too for me, but hey the MOST IMPORTANT thing is not there: understandable and nice gameplay.

al the darkness
26th Feb 2004, 04:25
as for me, the camera is just "not good enough"
i finish the game without any terrible feeling about angle...just it could be better
anyway the camera does suit fighting, doesnt suit puzzle and jump

corwin
26th Feb 2004, 05:01
Originally posted by The Amazing Rando
4-"Didn't make a difference" Ie: the camera wasn't that bad that it affected the gameplay like many people say. more positive than negative. 4 votes

"Didn't make a difference" pretty much means neutral.

"Didn't like it" means dislike it.

"but I won't check this when I buy my next game." means only little irritation

" I wouldn't buy another game with such camera/controls" means alot of frustration

"Completely ruined my gameplay" means totally bad

NOthing to do with 5-4-3-2-1 with 3 being neutral

you need this:
http://www.soon.org.uk/page17.htm

blincoln
26th Feb 2004, 05:58
Sadly the thread this came from is locked, but I think it is an important distinction to make:


Listen everyone, he said the new Tomb Raider game is most likely to be using the engine from Defiance. This means chances are the camera will be the same as in Defiance.

This is incorrect. The Defiance engine fully supports the follow-cam from SR1 and 2 (since it is based on that engine). It is not used in Defiance because it makes the game unplayable, as I've said about 1000 times before.

It has also not even been announced if the new Tomb Raider game really will use the Defiance engine (although I hope it does, since it looks really nice).

I will not post in this thread anymore, since I'm sure if I do I will end up saying something that gets it locked or deleted.