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Kains_Queen
9th Feb 2004, 10:44
Okay can someone help me out? a couple of things are bothering me.....

Okay when Raziel came accross Ariel the last time he devoured her soul, Then he was imprisoned in the Reaver blade >sob....so sad < anyway if he took Ariel's soul and he did it in the past she wouldn't be there in the future for Raziel to meet would she? and therefore he wouldn't have known her in the past and so probably wouldn't have taken in her soul.......See what i am getting at? Does this make a paradox? or is it an error on CD's part? It gets more complicated the more i think about it. Or is there going to be another game (There better be or else!!) where Raziel and Ariel are released from the Reaver and Raziels does actually change his destiny. Or maybe Kain goes and finds his younger self and explains everything to him which is how Kain managed to know everything that would happen and so tried to change it. Or did he really see it all in the cronoplast chamber ordained my Mobeus. But if that's true how come Kain surprised Mobeus and killed him? and if he killed him in the past how is Mobeus meant to be in the future to help Raziel? Can someone please explain?????????

Okay I know it's long but I really need to know!! :D

Vampmaster
9th Feb 2004, 11:16
As ghosts have no mass, they have no momentum, so they require no energy to accelerate them faster than light where as anything with mass requires infinate energy. Meaning it is easy for them travel through time.

Kains_Queen
9th Feb 2004, 11:24
Not if she's trapped in the Reaver blade with Raziel!!

or did i miss something when i played?
:confused:

van_HellSing PL
9th Feb 2004, 15:22
I believe that the Ariel imprisoned in the blade is the Ariel from the future (SR1 Ariel).

WraithStar
9th Feb 2004, 16:29
Yes. I think Amy said that in a Q & A somewhere.
The Ariel that gets drawn into the blade is the Ariel from SR1 era. She was released from the pillar when Kain temporarily died in Avernus (because the Kain that "died" was from the future, the future Ariel was released). I believe that the Moebius Raziel meets in the future was really just a magical recording, not the actual Moebius.

Kains_Queen
9th Feb 2004, 17:03
Good theory but how do you explain The fact her face is whole? and i don't think she is from the future. It doesn't seem to tally up somehow, I'd love to think that Raz and Kain did actually manage to change things just a little bit because I wanted very badly for that to happen in defiance It was so sad when Raziel was sucked away especially as he only just realised that Kain was his ally not his enemy, so sad :( oop i just realised That she was purified so her face is whole hee hee I shall have to play it again!!!!!! I'm waffling again too much playing........:D

LOK kain is the greatest
11th Feb 2004, 01:49
everything to him which is how Kain managed to know everything that would happen and so tried to change it. Or did he really see it all in the cronoplast chamber ordained my Mobeus. But if that's true how come Kain surprised Mobeus and killed him? and if he killed him in the past how is Mobeus meant to be in the future to help Raziel? Can someone please explain?????????


the mobius Kain killed is i believe a resurected one. because when Kain goes to kill him he says something like

"What kill me....... again?..That's your answear for everything.to kill."-mobius defiance

and he said the EG god could resuerect him as "he has the power over life and death"

High Priest of Avernus
11th Feb 2004, 20:54
If you look at SR1 you will see that Ariel first appears immediately after the physical Soul Reaver is shattered and Raziel takes up the wraith blade. Given the recent interview posted by Blincolin I suspect that Ariel was released from the Soul Reaver, which she had been trapped in all this time, when Kain first battled with Raziel in the Sanctuary of the Clans. I would also speculate that it was her imprisonment in the blade that caused her deformities rather than her murder or life in the spectral realm. Given this, I would further speculate that it was a younger Ariel, recently murdered by the possessed Mortanius who entered the blade, perhaps after having been given council by her future self who traveled back to guide Kain in BO1 after directing Raziel in SR1. Which temporal incarnation of Ariel entered the blade, whether or not her deformities were caused by her imprisonment there, and whether or not Ariel has been time-streaming, I am not yet certain. I will have to go back over all of the Ariel related scenes in the games before I'm sure about all of this but at the very least it seems apparent to me that Ariel was in fact trapped within the blade and released in SR1.

Kains_Queen
11th Feb 2004, 21:55
Oh YES!! that is it! i never thought of that and i reckon you got it I think it was a freshly murdered Ariel that gave herself to Raziel for the Reaver - one small point though......

When she appears to Raziel in defiance she is still waiting for Kain to make his descision about the sacrifice and she is deformed then but she knows Raziel later on in the game and her face is normal.

I am half way through playing the game a second time so i will check out the cutscenes with her. :D

Dogfight
11th Feb 2004, 22:20
This is a repost of a post I put up not too long ago on another thread.

It is an analysis of all of the conversations of Ariel's spirit from all the games in the order of the timeline.

This is at the beginning of Defiance, the time of Blood Omen 1, newly recorded first meeting.



Ariel: What manner of creature approaches?

Raziel: I know you well, Ariel, though you do not yet know me.

Ariel: I have no time for riddles, strange one.

Raziel: All you have is time. I have come to seek your guidance.

Ariel: I counsel only one man, and you are not he. But you will know him soon. The contagion of your kind is coming to an end.

Raziel: My kind? What exactly do you think I am?

Ariel: Your name shall remain 'Unspoken', as decreed by our ancestors. You serve the one who so brutally took my life and set this tragedy in motion. But even now, hope is at work, Balance will be restored, and your kind will be expelled forever.

Raziel: You have pinned your hopes on Kain. He will disappoint you.

Ariel: What can you know of Kain?

Raziel: More than you could ever fathom.

Ariel: He will do what he must when the time comes.

Raziel: By choosing his own death? A sacrifice for the world? You don't know Kain very well.

Ariel: I know what he is called to do. My faith sustains me.
Raziel: Is it faith, or fear? You know that if Kain refuses the sacrifice, you will never leave here. And you begin to suspect...

Ariel: I will not hear your poison, fiend.

Raziel: Grant me the answers I require, and I will leave you to your pathetic delusions.

Ariel: Ask then.

Raziel: I seek the vampire Vorador.

Ariel: To kill him, perhaps? Or to join him in death? But for Kain, he is the last of his kind. Moebius' mob has done its work.

Raziel: My reasons are my own.

Ariel: His refuge lies in the heart of the Termogent Forest. And may you molder there together until the end comes.


The spirit of Ariel believes Raziel to be a Hylden spirit possibly in possession of a dead corpse, she doesn't trust him, nor does she know him and she doesn't really want to pay attention to him.

This next quote below is from close to the finally of Defiance, and close to the end of the Blood Omen 1 era, but from before the fall of the Pillars.



(After activating the Spirit Forge, Ariel appears, pristine and beautiful, as she was before her murder.)

Ariel: It is accomplished. The forge summons the spirit of every Balance Guardian to itself, for this final purpose.

Raziel: Ariel? You?

Ariel: Yes, Raziel, yet I am much more than I was. The veil is lifted from my sight. My spirit, united with the souls of my predecessors, is drawn here now for the final baptism of the blade. To restore Balance, the sword must be rendered pure by Spirit. Release me, Raziel - the Soul Reaver has the power. Release us all. For this we were called.

(Ariel extends her hand toward Raziel, who takes it warily. As their fingers touch, Ariel is drawn, through Raziel, into the Wraith Blade. Ariel's voice intonates in his mind.)

Ariel: You have done well, Raziel. But there is one more trial for you to bear. You must unite what has been set asunder. Only then will the Scion of Balance be armed for his true endeavor. Only then...


Ariel's spirit recognizes Raziel, the reason being that the future spirit of Ariel was summoned to the Spirit Forge, after being released from the Pillars when the future older Kain died. It can be argued that it can't be the present spirit of Ariel because she is still tied and imprisoned to the Pillars, thus she wouldn't be able to leave them.

This next quote below is from Soul Reaver 2, 100 years after Blood Omen 1, the dark forces menioned in the conversation are the Hylden.



Ariel: Forever am I bound, hope abandoned, my spirit tethered to this place... What destroyed the Circle could not touch me. For I was newly dead, and beyond harm's reach. I alone was spared the descent into madness, and Kain alone was spared the pain of death. When Nupraptor's poison seized Kain even in the safety of the womb, much more than just his destiny was lost. All of Nosgoth lost Balance. Consider us now... both of us less than we once were. I, pure but insubstantial; and Kain, terribly real, but corrupted.

(Raziel interrupts Ariel's reverie, and she turns in alarm.)

Raziel: You imprisonment here has deranged you, spirit. You fixate on Kain because you believe he is the tether that binds you here. But we both know he is not the author of your agony. The Pillars were subverted by dark forces, invited by the Guardians themselves. The more I learn of your Circle, the more I see a tangle of nested manipulations.

(Ariel responds angrily.)

Ariel: Kain handed them their victory. They sought to topple the Pillars, and he was their willing instrument.

(Raziel interrupts, challenging her.)

Raziel: Or was he their unwilling pawn? Would it blunt your wrath to know that Kain's dilemma was calculated to bring the Pillars down, regardless of the choice he made? And that the devastation would have been even greater had he chosen the path you would prescribe for him?

Ariel: You are a subtle, deceitful creature. But your clever arguments do not absolve Kain. He must die for the Pillars to be restored; there is no other way.

Raziel: Then consider this more ominous possibility - what if Kain's death does not restore the Pillars? Consider that it may simply be too late. That this world may be beyond redemption. And that you may be bound here eternally.

(Distraught, Ariel flees into the spirit realm, unaware that Raziel is able to follow. Raziel shifts into spectral and startles her as she cowers behind the Balance Pillar. Cornered and miserable, Ariel implores Raziel.)
Ariel: Why do you hound me, demon? You can see that I am captive here. Show me some mercy.

Raziel: Like the mercy you showed your fellow Guardians when you set Kain on them? Or the mercy you showed Kain when you kept him ignorant of his destiny while you used him as the scourge of the Circle? Or perhaps like the mercy you showed your beloved Nupraptor when you made him Kain's first kill?

Ariel: You are cruel. Why do you torment me?

(Weary of this, Raziel relents.)

Raziel: I'm merely looking for answers, Ariel. Very well - I'll leave you in peace. But know this - about you, and this purgatory from which you long to escape...you're merely at the threshold.


Notice the the spirit of Ariel calls Raziel a subtle deceitful creature here, back in Defiance at the time of Blood Omen 1 she called Raziel's words, "poison", she also refers to Raziel as a "demon" a term that has at times been used by others for describing the Hylden. Perhaps Ariel's spirit does recognize Raziel from before in this era. She doesn't yet know who or what exactly Raziel is, nor does she know his name, but she now considers Raziel a defender of Kain.

Finally this last quote below is the dialogue from thousands of years in the future of Soul Reaver 1.



(A specter appears before Raziel. It is of a woman, half of her face is young and beautiful, and the other half dead and rotten. She speaks to Raziel)

Ariel: What are you, little soul? Another of Kain's creatures come to taunt this bound specter?

Raziel: I did not intend to disturb your rest.

Ariel: Rest...? A body is needed for sleep, flesh and bones are required to recline. No, child, all I may do is watch and remember, ceaselessly conscious as this wretched world's history unfolds. Ghastly past, insufferable future, are they one and the same? Am I always here?

Raziel: How have you come to haunt these Pillars?

Ariel: Kain refused the sacrifice. The Pillar of Balance, corrupted to its core, stands as a monument to his blind ambition. Now these pillars serve only to bind me here, my prison and eternal home, thanks to the avarice of your master, Kain...

Raziel: That bastard can claim no allegiance from me.

Ariel: Then we share a common foe, Raziel. Return here when you have need. Ariel remembers what others have forgotten...


Look at the dialogue: "What are you, little soul? Another of Kain's creatures come to taunt this bound specter?" Ariel recalls the events thousands of years ago back in Soul Reaver 2.

What is more she knows about the Vampire Lieutenant Raziel, but at first in this conversation she did not reconize that the ghoul in front of her was Raziel, during the conversation she figures it out.

She also seems to hint at meeting Raziel before by her words: "Ghastly past, insufferable future, are they one and the same? Am I always here?"

Kains_Queen
11th Feb 2004, 22:37
WOW!! That has to be the longest post i ever read!! one tiny little point. If the Ariel that was sucked into the Reaver is the Ariel from the future and in the future she is mutilated how come her face is perfect? I know i am picking but i just need to understand it:confused:

van_HellSing PL
11th Feb 2004, 22:50
I reckon it's because she's now fully sane.

WraithStar
11th Feb 2004, 23:00
Yes. When she was freed from the Pillars, she was restored somehow and therefore she looks the way she did before she died.

Dogfight
11th Feb 2004, 23:11
WOW!! That has to be the longest post i ever read!! one tiny little point. If the Ariel that was sucked into the Reaver is the Ariel from the future and in the future she is mutilated how come her face is perfect? I know i am picking but i just need to understand it

I've posted longer posts than this before. To expand on my past post, the way I interpret what happened at the Spirit Forge is the following.

Raziel activates the Spirit Forge, the forge then calls all the Balance Guardians to itself, including the spirit of Ariel but it can’t do this for the present spirit of Ariel in the time of Blood Omen 1 because she is still bound to the Pillars, by her connection to the Pillar of Balance and the young Kain.

When looking at the cutscene there is this purple glow that can be taken to be a portal, right before the spirit of Ariel appears.

Thus, what you have is a sort of portal created by the activation of the Spirit Forge in the Vampire Citadel, that is still present for a moment even in the future, a type of momentary whole in time and space. Since the future Kain is dead in the era of Blood Omen 1, the future spirit of Ariel is released from her imprisonment at the Pillars in the future. Take into account this would be after Kain and Raziel went through the time portal at the Chronoplast Chamber, since at that time the older Kain was still alive.

Thereby the future spirit of Ariel in the future, just released from the Pillars is drawn to the Vampire Citadel, goes through the portal and ends up in the era of Blood Omen 1.

The reason the spirit of Ariel looks different when summoned to the Spirit Forge is because the forge healed her of all corruption, giving her back a full looking human face, and making her gown totally white instead of green, it is symbolic of purity triumphing over corruption.

Kains_Queen
12th Feb 2004, 01:06
Thanks so much!! NOW I understand :D:D

Took some working out though hee hee how long did you spend typing out all those cutscenes??????? and i thought I was mad???

Oh well I am getting to know them off by heart now anyway. Hmmmm wonder why? ;)

High Priest of Avernus
12th Feb 2004, 15:17
Although I find your theory concerning Ariel quite plausible and less contrived/paradoxical than my own, Dogfight, it seems to ignore the incredible coincidence in the timing of her appearance in SR1 and leaves Ariel as the 'good girl' of the story, while I am rather convinced that she is one of, if not the, greatest manipulators of them all (I also got this impression from one of the earlier Amy Hennig interviews). Nevertheless, I find nothing wrong with your reasoning and it is clearly less problematic, though more boring ;), than my own.