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DJpick
7th Feb 2004, 06:46
Amy mentioned a connection between the Lost City and the Lake of the Dead and the Abyss.

But first I need someone who has a good knowledge of the maps to help answer a question for me. Is the Citadel anywhere near the Lake of The Dead?

Cause i have a theory brewing, but I want to make sure I have all the info first.

Dogfight
7th Feb 2004, 07:13
Yeah, you are not the first one to come up with that question, blincoln put down a similar question in the first F.A.Q. about Defiance and Amy answered it.

I don't know if it will be of any help but here is the excerpt.


Q: Is the Vampire Citadel the Lost City? A: No, the Lost City is in a different area.

The link to the entire F.A.Q. is below.

http://www.thelostworlds.net/Defiance-Amy.HTML

DJpick
7th Feb 2004, 07:21
Well, I can work with that.

I just have a feeling that the "Lake of the Dead" may be more than just a name. It may be something where a HUGE massacre occured of a VERY powerful entity, and all the dead souls fed the this entity and eventually it became the EG. And as his power grew from souls, eventually he became the EG we know. And the Lost City was a city of the Ancients or Hylden.

Just a thought.

Dogfight
7th Feb 2004, 07:43
Interesting thought, but you need to brush it up a bit. I may be able to help out.

This might not be what you are looking for, but they are small clues to the puzzle.

First off this little piece of dialogue from Blood Omen 1.


Vorador: Good. Take this ring. If you ever need assistance it will summon me. Despite your youthful arrogance, you amuse me, Kain. It would be such a pity to lose you to the Abyss. Now, be gone!

Another thing, back in Soul Reaver 1, when Raziel starts off at the bottom of the Abyss in the Spectral Realm there are some stones lying around which appear to be ruins of a city. There are various of these stone blocks and some of them have images. Three in particular, each stone block has one image. The interesting thing is that one of the images looks like the Elder, specifically the Elder statue underneath the Pillars in Soul Reaver 2, and the Elder concept design.

Three stone blocks each with their own image are stacked one on top of another, together the three images look like the transformation of a human looking being into the Elder.

Unfortunately I don't have any pictures of this.

DJpick
7th Feb 2004, 09:02
If you had a better description, I could try to find it.

Only thing is if this turns out to be tru, that would mean the transformation would have occured LONG before the war, since I doubt it would be a transformation that happened overnight. UNLESS the mass influx of souls altered that entity rapidly, and that rapid change cuased the entity to become deranged and crave souls. Maybe EG is just a parasite, or the entity was the first TRUE vampire and fed on souls, and he had an extreme slefloathing for himself and any other vampire. Who knows.

Dogfight
7th Feb 2004, 09:23
Yes, its hard to tell what they mean exactly, its something you need to see for yourself.

The place they are located in is the very first chamber, the one where Raziel can get hints on where to go from the Elder each time he steps on this block on the floor. The place is where we are first introduced to the Elder, in the Underworld at the bottom of the Abyss.

You might need to play around with the camera to get a good enough look to find them. Although the stone blocks with images are all over the place, the three images have been stacked one on top of another only once that I've noticed in the room.

DJpick
7th Feb 2004, 09:24
So we have a room, but WHERE in this room?

Dogfight
7th Feb 2004, 09:31
There is one of these pillars with all of the images, when approaching the exit, to the left.

It is also located to the right of the block you use to communicate with the Elder and situated in almost plain sight.

DJpick
7th Feb 2004, 09:34
I think I vaguely remember them. Thought it was wierd.

Dogfight
7th Feb 2004, 11:04
Here are some more clues.

The picture at the bottom of the pillar made up of the three stone blocks contains a human looking face being swallowed from the back from what looks like the head of a snake, that is if this snake isn't a part of the being to begin with.

I don't know if you knew about this.

The thing is that there were several snake statues at the Lost City. While there wasn't really any doubt to begin with, this could confirm that the ruins at the bottom of the Abyss do indeed belong to the Lost City.

At the center of the Lake of the Dead back in Blood Omen 1 there was a teleportation device, surrounded by a stonehenge looking structure, the device took Kain underwater to the Lost City which appeared to somehow be contained in some sort of underwater barrier. There were blue beams of light on the floor giving the impression that it was underwater, they seemed to come through from some barrier far above. Going to this place was purely optional.

Here is a link to a picture of the teleporter, its at the bottom of the webpage.

http://www.siliconknights.com/heritage/faq/faqsecr6.htm

The Lost City's gates would only open during a full moon, the place contained werewolves, demons, and even some hooded monks. When I went there last time I played Blood Omen 1 I hadn't played the game in some time, I noticed the architecture resembled pyramids, most appropiately the place contained the most secrets in the game.

Fascinating, I wonder if this could be an indicator that if the older Kain goes there he will also find many secret revelations.

See this link for some pictures and a biography if you haven't already. Ardeth hasn't yet included what Amy said in that F.A.Q. about their being a connection.

http://www.dark-chronicle.co.uk/archive/lostdead.php

This link is about the Abyss, check it out if you haven't, Ardeth hasn't added what Vorador said in Blood Omen 1 to it yet.

http://www.dark-chronicle.co.uk/archive/abyss.php

DJpick
7th Feb 2004, 18:36
Unfortunately when I played BO1, I never even knew about the lost city, so I missed it.

Wasn't the Lost City filled with werewolves? I hoe the Hylden don't turn out to be werewolves, We don't need a repeat of the Underworld and its court case :)

Actuall, forget that, I do cause I like werewolves :)

Ardeth hasn't yet included what Amy said in that F.A.Q. about their being a connection.
Yes he has :)

And Vorador's comment could have just been a metaphor, like Ardeth said. Considering how much Vorador knew from his life with the Ancients. How knows though.

Dogfight
7th Feb 2004, 19:49
Yes he has

I hadn't notice because the webpages are being updated from time to time by Ardeth.


And Vorador's comment could have just been a metaphor, like Ardeth said. Considering how much Vorador knew from his life with the Ancients. How knows though.

Yes, but the Abyss being around in some form at the time of Blood Omen 1 is certainly possible, although Vorador's comment could just have to do with some Vampiric afterlife.

Ardeth Silvereni
7th Feb 2004, 21:52
Originally posted by DJpick
Yes he hasI'm female. :p

I owe you an apology, Dogfight. I edited the pages a few hours ago, after reading this thread. It reminded me that I'd been intending to do it for a while. It didn't seem a big enough update to mention explictly on the site, though. :)

Dogfight
7th Feb 2004, 22:44
No apology necessary, I know you update the webpages from your website from time to time. What I didn't know is that you read the threads here. Thanks for the updates.

DJpick
8th Feb 2004, 08:33
I'm female
Yes she has.

Somehow, I knew that. For some reason I knew the DC was done by a female, but just didn't knwo YOU were the one who did it :)

PS. Forgive any spelling errors. I know I am anal about spelling, but right now, I am inebriated :)

Dogfight
9th Feb 2004, 07:48
Alright, how about this possibility.

Let us say that there was another race in Nosgoth before the Hylden and the Ancients. The Elder belonged to this kind and they had control of much of Nosgoth.

Only then another race evolved and fought against the Elder's kind.

They defeated the Elder's kind, killing all but one, this one was the most powerful and all but invincible, they could not kill him thus instead they sealed him, the Elder in his own city the Lost City.

The Elder then being trapped there for millenia, harnassed souls to survive and created the Abyss to give him a constant supply of souls, which changed him into his current form.

This race that defeated the Elder then forgot about their past and at some point later split off into the Ancients and the Hylden.

The Elder then millenia later, grew to such a size there that he began to expand his body all over Nosgoth.

Centuries after Blood Omen 1, but before Soul Reaver 1 then his body had grown so large that he unintentionally destroyed the Lost City.

DJpick
9th Feb 2004, 08:16
Yeah, people forge ttherir past, but not the ones who are bitter. Maybe he is a Hylden ancestor, and hates the Ancients, or maybe he is an old one who was banished like you said. Or maybe he WAS the first true vampire. And his hatred made him what he is, and that's why he hates vampires. His selfl loathing is enacted upon others.

That's it, EG is just transfering his anger :)

DJpick
10th Feb 2004, 02:23
Have any of the characters referred to EG as the "Elder God"? Or is that just a name that he is called by CD and us from the manual? I mean, if it is his name, I wonder why he is called "Elder" and not just "god"?

Dogfight
10th Feb 2004, 03:49
Moebius called him god in Soul Reaver 2 and Raziel refers to him as a god throughout the series.

Nonetheless you are right, besides the History of Nosgoth summaries of past events found in the Soul Reaver 2 game, and in the instruction manuals of Soul Reaver 2 and in Defiance, he is never explicitly called the "Elder God."

I don't see either "Elder", "God" or even "Elder God" as his real names, only titles he took some time ago and then he told his servants, which eventually led to becoming names for himself.

This is likely just like how he told Kain that he was the "Oracle" of his ancestors. The guy sure has many different identities.

This being's true identity, like his main body, remains a secret. Although both these secrets are probably at the Lost City in between the time after Blood Omen 1 but much before Soul Reaver 1.

I am uncertain if the Elder's form at the bottom of the Abyss in what seem to be the ruins of the Lost City in Soul Reaver 1, is really the main body of the Elder. Its not exactly what one would expect and he could have relocated. Still, it certainly is possible that it is the Elder's main source.

If this is so, it could be plausible that if Kain kills him there, he will wipe out the Elder throughout all of Nosgoth, like a domino effect.

DJpick
10th Feb 2004, 04:18
What I was getting at is what if the name was an accidental hint by Amy that he was something before the Elder races we know of. And if so, did the Ancients know of him as an Elder to their race, or was he from a time LONG before their race?

I kind of like this possible story aspect. Elder becomes a dead soul that used to be a vampire (similar to the wraiths of SR) and eventually became what he is, but for the longest time he had no food to feed on, and his self loathing became worse when he realized vampires couldn't be fed upon, so he hated them even more because as a vampire himself, he could never return to the Wheel of fate and be reborn.

I could write this game myself :) It would be a poetic irony sort of story :)

I'm not even sure if EG has a main body. They hint that the part in Defiance is, but then it seemed like the one in the abyss was as well.

Dogfight
10th Feb 2004, 04:58
What I was getting at is what if the name was an accidental hint by Amy that he was something before the Elder races we know of. And if so, did the Ancients know of him as an Elder to their race, or was he from a time LONG before their race?

I got that hint a while back, this is the main reason for some of my past discourse about the Elder belonging to a race preceding the Ancients and the Hylden. As well as the subsequent possibility of his race dominating Nosgoth, and then being at war with an ancestral primitive race belonging to both the Ancients and the Hylden.


I'm not even sure if EG has a main body. They hint that the part in Defiance is, but then it seemed like the one in the abyss was as well.

Well, other ways to look at it is the Elder having a main source, a starting point, a core or a center. There has to be a place from which he originally began to spread throughout all of Nosgoth. The Lost City is currently the best candidate for such a point.

Zephon
11th Feb 2004, 19:08
THE STONEHENGE IS AT RAZIEL'S FIRST CONDUIT & IN DEFIANCE HE SAYS THE CITADEL WILL BECOME UR TOMB!:)

DJpick
11th Feb 2004, 20:10
So, ummm, what exactly are you trying to say Zephon?

Ardeth Silvereni
11th Feb 2004, 20:58
I feel like I'm going a bit off topic here, but I wanted to address this and ask other people's opinion:
Originally posted by DJpick:
But first I need someone who has a good knowledge of the maps to help answer a question for me. Is the Citadel anywhere near the Lake of The Dead?Defiance offers this locational evidence:
Moebius:
The answers are plain if you know where to look. Go west of the Pillars - there you will find a testament written in stone.

... and later, at the obelisk near the Pillars

Kain V.O.:
The mists that shrouded this lake miraculously now cleared away, revealing an ancient citadel. So Moebius had not lied. Or perhaps this was simply another of the Time Streamer's illusions, meant to slow my true endeavor.Based on this, I think the Vampire Citadel is actually in the middle of the Lake of Tears.Its location may even be connected to that mysterious 'sea serpent' image shown in BO1 maps that has never previously been explained.

On old maps, in our real world, I believe there was a practice of showing unexplored and potentially dangerous places as being guarded by monsters. 'Here be dragons' - that sort of thing. I think it's plausible that a human map-maker would have no knowledge of the Citadel, but there would be enough local legend to know that the place was to be avoided. I think the sea serpent was on the map for this reason - to deter people from venturing into the lake.

I know I'm speculating quite wildly, but I think it all fits. A second opinion would certainly be welcome. Also, my apologies if the Citadel's location has already been established in other threads here. I think Raptor666 has thought along the same lines as me before. :)

Edit: Added spolier tags.

Raptor666
11th Feb 2004, 21:35
I do indeed agree, it seems to be specifically pointed out in direction by Moebius, and the other lakes near to the Pillars are clearly North and East respectively.

One thing I was going to check was the fact that you can see the Pillars from the broken wall atop the Citadel where you land as Kain, and as I figure the Pillars are supposed to be pointing North from their back (i think), then the angle the Pillars appear at from there should give you bearings (assuming the game design is so accurate, they may not be aligned to a specific angle). But I figure it might be something to check. Now if only a had a save from before the end to check with >_<.....

DJpick
12th Feb 2004, 02:08
Raptor, I don't have any saves, but I have OODLES of pics of the pillars from various places, like Raziel in the Cemetary, Citadel, and other places if that helps?

ALos, you can't really go off topic in this one because it doesn't really HAVE a topic, I'm just on a fact finding mission in order to make a better theory. Thanks for the help though :)

From the looks of it, the Sanctuary and Citadel are both fairly close to the pillars, while Kain's Mausoleum is further away (which is odd cause I though tit was pretty close from BO1).

So who knows, after I check out the map I may have more info.

It seems like the pillars also reflect perspective. Because they are more turned then when looking at them from the Sanctuary, Citadel, or Cemetery.

Update: After looking at the map it's odd, the Kain's Mausoleum IS closer by just a little bit, yet appears to be further away in Defiance.

Also, what is this serpant you speak of? I never saw it.

Raptor666
12th Feb 2004, 02:55
Originally posted by DJpick
Raptor, I don't have any saves, but I have OODLES of pics of the pillars from various places, like Raziel in the Cemetary, Citadel, and other places if that helps?

Thanks, but it doesn't matter now as I realised two of the cutscenes happen in the main chamber of the Citadel so I could look with those instead :D. From the looks of it you can only clearly see 5 of the pillars, so that at least would show that the Citadel is either directly East or West. Naturally I assume west.


Originally posted by DJpick
Also, what is this serpant you speak of? I never saw it.

The big blue fella on the bottom left in the Lake of Tears on the old BO1 map I assume. :D

http://www.dark-chronicle.co.uk/games/bomap.php

Dogfight
12th Feb 2004, 03:40
This doesn't really have anything to do with the topic but have you ever wondered why the tower that Moebius was in, in the last room at the Sarafan Stronghold has similar architecture to that of the Vampire Citadel.

What is more the place had a door and a time steaming chamber with a crystal, thus allowing only the elemental energy of the Light Reaver to open them as depicted in Soul Reaver 2.

This all gives me the impression that there used to be a large structure of the Ancients where the Sarafan Stronghold is currently located, and that it was destroyed, but some ruins of it were left. Later it seems the order of the human Circle Guardians and the Sarafan built their Stronghold there around the remaining ruins.

DJpick
12th Feb 2004, 06:51
The big blue fella on the bottom left in the Lake of Tears on the old BO1 map I assume
Yeah, I found it :) I was looking at the wrong map :)

in the last room at the Sarafan Stronghold has similar architecture to that of the Vampire Citadel.
I'm not sure that REALLY means anything, the WB opened a LOT of doors in SR1 that we know weren't built by the Ancients, like the Vampire Stronghold, or the Cathedral, as well as other buildings. SO you can't really count that one yet.

It's also possible that with Moebius' connections to the Ancients, he had similar tastes. Although I wouldn't exactly call them "similar" architectures.

Dogfight
12th Feb 2004, 07:00
I'm not sure that REALLY means anything, the WB opened a LOT of doors in SR1 that we know weren't built by the Ancients, like the Vampire Stronghold, or the Cathedral, as well as other buildings. SO you can't really count that one yet.

The doors you are talking about I'd say Kain made so that only he could enter those places with the physical Soul Reaver being his key.

Recall if you near the main doors of the Sanctuary of the Clans, these do not have any Soul Reaver symbol, Raziel tries to open them but he can't because they are locked, he then looks for another way. It could be Kain had a key for these doors.

What I mentioned before is certainly possibly, most of the Sarafan Stronghold looks new, but the room at the top of the tower of Moebius looks old, as do the areas at the place with the crystals. Moebius even has his own time chamber there which didn't have a crystal, I take this to be a copy of the one that does have a crystal.

DJpick
12th Feb 2004, 07:02
So what about the Cathedral?

Dogfight
12th Feb 2004, 07:09
So what about the Cathedral?

There are two possibilities Kain locked the place so that humans wouldn't use it as a place of worship any longer or he locked the place to keep Zephon and his brood in sometime after Raziel was thrown into the Abyss.

DJpick
12th Feb 2004, 07:42
And if Kain had nothing to do with it?

Dogfight
12th Feb 2004, 07:47
And if Kain had nothing to do with it?

Then the Ancients made all the doors. It has to be that the Ancients either made all the doors, or they made some, and Kain made the ones depicted in Soul Reaver 1.

Another thing that is possible, is that at some point Kain found several of these doors lying around in ruins and decided to make use of them by placing them in his key locations as safeguards.

Raptor666
12th Feb 2004, 18:13
I could believe the Stronghold was built on the ruins of some Vampire architecture, at the least it would explain the ruins in the Lake outside as well as the fact that the Light Forge is right next to it.

EDIT: You know something just dawned on me, maybe ALL the Vampire Cities are built on the water perhaps. I mean as a winged race it might make sense to take advantage of not needing roads and ground. In which case they would have been built in the three main lakes in Nosgoth, ergo:

1. The Lake of Tears (Vampire Citadel)

2. Great South Lake (Ruins built upon)

3. Lake of the Dead (Lost City?)

What you think?

DJpick
12th Feb 2004, 19:22
Well Voradors Retreat was built into the cliff face over looking that huge lake.

Raptor666
12th Feb 2004, 20:19
I think there's a fair possibility of it being the case. Whether it's relevant of course is a whole other matter :D. That said, I don't recall the Hylden being able to fly so it would be a good defence mechanism.

It may also reflect on why the curse not only makes them immortal and give them a bloodthirst, but also makes Vampires weak to water.

DJpick
12th Feb 2004, 20:26
New question, does anyone have a pic of that Statue in SR2, where the water level kept dropping, in the cave to the EG? C@CD said it was supposed to represent a primitive races sculpture of the EG. SO I wonder if that undcerground Chamber was an Ancient dwelling/building of some sort?

Raptor666
12th Feb 2004, 20:41
Originally posted by DJpick
New question, does anyone have a pic of that Statue in SR2, where the water level kept dropping, in the cave to the EG? C@CD said it was supposed to represent a primitive races sculpture of the EG. SO I wonder if that undcerground Chamber was an Ancient dwelling/building of some sort?

There is the artwork for it on the SR2 Bonus Material if that's any good (until someone posts a proper image anyway).

http://www.thelostworlds.net/SR-Art-Elder.HTML

DJpick
13th Feb 2004, 03:41
Well, it's not PERFECT but it still helps, because it gives me insight into what Amy was telling the people to go for until they got it right.

It' sinteresting how this statue has hundreds of eyes like the actual EG, seeing as how only ONE person was able to actually see the EG, Raziel, although I guess it's possible EG let Raziel see him.

I'm just curious if no one knew what they EG looked like, how the Statue could resemble him? Maybe EG wasn't as unknown as he wanted to be?