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Dire
4th Feb 2004, 23:10
Okay I was playing through SR2 + Defiance over the weekend and I noticed something from the first cutscene in SR2 that seems to not be discussed about the ending of defiance and how its related.

"This is completely unexpected! This orb disables our vampire enemies, leaving them helpless and incapacitated. Strangely, it seems to have the same effect on that peculiar weapon of yours."

This is said in the first meeting between raziel & good old moe. now as we all know the blade is raziels own soul yet it was disabled and raziel was left standing and okay.

we also learn that janos and his palls did some magic on it and it was a vampiric weapon so when raziel soul gets sucked into the reaver what happens to make his soul have vampiric elements in it again? and does this change the wraith blade in some form?

So i'm wondering that when everyone goes on about what exactly janos et all really did to the reaver when it was created. maybe its a simple answer or maybe my brains just fried but your thoughts would be nice.

Woetothecongoured
5th Feb 2004, 03:06
anybody, anybody:(

WraithStar
5th Feb 2004, 14:46
Maybe they set it up to bring back Lieutenant Raziel :p

DJpick
5th Feb 2004, 19:21
If you're willing to have an open mind, I know of a few possibilities that have been discussed.

One, Raziel used actual matter to form his body, which supposedly formed a shield that protected his soul, but as the WB it was free and open, and had no shield.

Two, Raziel as a wraith hadn't been in the blade, but the WB had been. And we all know the Reaver was imbued with Ancient magic...

and we know this was AFTER the Ancients received the curse, because Defiance said so, so we know it was vampiric energy that was put into the blade

So based on that, you could assume the WB absorbed the Vampiric energies of the Reaver, and became "vampiric" in nature.

3, this is a kind of addition to the first one actually, where when Raziel became a vampire, he might have been affected. But as a wraith he wouldn't be since he isn't a vampire in the same sense as a blood vampire (as a wraith he is still parasitic like a vampire since he feeds on life forces, just not blood). But the BR restored his vampiric nature.

Then of course there is the obvious theory, Raziel is somehow directly related to the ancients, and therefore his soul is ancient.

With all these possibilities, there is only one question that needs to be answered for us to theorize about why. Why the Blade, but not the Wraith? Hopefully Amy will explain this.

Dogfight
5th Feb 2004, 20:12
There are a few other possibilites. There is also one big reason given in Defiance that is not outright stated, but can be deduced from what the characters say.


"The image of the Reaver was inscribed throughout this place, always depicted with reverence. The Vampires' holy weapon was borne by their prophesied hero, for whom it was forged. But if this was to be my destiny, why had the Reaver tried to consume me?"


"The banished race foretold a hero who would deliver them from their oppressors,and destroy the shackles of the Vampires' tyrannous God. The same hero that bore the flaming sword. What game was this, where every player on the board claimed the same pawn?"

Raziel having a hybrid destiny and being a hybrid is likely why the staff didn't work on him.


Recall that Vorador said back in Soul Reaver 2: "And what should I make of your appearance? Not human, clearly - and more demon than vampire."

When Raziel finally goes into the Blood Reaver to make it the Soul Reaver, he destroys himself and is reborn by the blade as a full Vampiric Wraith Blade.

I wouldn't be surprised if the staff was made by the Hylden in the first place.

DJpick
6th Feb 2004, 05:23
Regarding the hybrid destiny...

How does that explain why the WB was affected and not Raziel?

I think it's less of Raziel being a pawn for both sides, or being one of them. He is no more Hylden than he is Ancient. I think they both knew of someone from the future and intended to persuade him into fulfilling their wishes.

Dire
6th Feb 2004, 05:57
Originally posted by DJpick
3, this is a kind of addition to the first one actually, where when Raziel became a vampire, he might have been affected.

heres a theory (not sure if this is incorrect) but once kain had janos' heart removed from his body he wasnt affected by the staff which could be down to kain being a necromantic (this is the correct term yes?) vampire. So I would imagine raziel and his brothers also to be necromantic so they would also be unaffected.



But as a wraith he wouldn't be since he isn't a vampire in the same sense as a blood vampire (as a wraith he is still parasitic like a vampire since he feeds on life forces, just not blood). But the BR restored his vampiric nature

but thats wrong though as the BR doesnt restore it though. The blood reaver becomes the soul reaver housing raziels soul which has a nice taste for souls :)

The vampiric taint caused by the blood reaver doesnt really seem to have any effect on raziels wraith blade form other than the staff being able to disable it.

Maybe CD messed up or something :confused:

Dogfight
6th Feb 2004, 05:58
Let me explain further in what direction I was going.

Raziel being a hybrid could be the reason that the staff didn't affect Raziel to the same degree that it affects a full Vampire, like Janos or Vorador. This brings to mind how the staff didn't affect Kain because he no longer had a heart for it to affect. A different circumstance but it demonstrates that the staff's power has its limits. What is more if the staff was made by the Hylden only to render Vampires immobile, it wouldn't work on themselves because it wasn't designed for such a function. Thus the Hylden side to Raziel's character would render him immune to the magic of the staff.


I think it's less of Raziel being a pawn for both sides, or being one of them. He is no more Hylden than he is Ancient. I think they both knew of someone from the future and intended to persuade him into fulfilling their wishes.

I question Raziel being only a part of a prophecy, I see perhaps that Raziel was around in a previous incarnation at the start of the war between the Ancients and the Hylden, if not even before then.

Although it could just be artistic license, the Ancient and the Hylden depicted in the murals of Defiance both have a red mantle on their left side, but Raziel in his pre-fallen form in Soul Reaver 1 had it on his right side.

If the murals depicted just the future why would they have Raziel's red mantle be on the left side instead of the right. Besides this with Crystal Dynamics attention to detail and as you've said Amy's great concentrated consistency to the story why would they make such an obvious mistake? Unless they didn't and they tell not just Raziel's coming but his unknown past as well. I have more on this, but I'm saving it up.

DJpick
6th Feb 2004, 06:33
If the murals depicted just the future why would they have Raziel's red mantle be on the left side instead of the right.
Because you're counting an assumption as fact. There's no proof it is his Banner. I looked at the murals, and didn't see a "banner" that resembled Raziel's. In fact, I hardly saw one at all, and the armor was also off. If anything, only the color was similar.

and as you've said Amy's great concentrated consistency to the story why would they make such an obvious mistake?
No offense, but honestly, we get the picture. You had problems. There were mistakes galore. You made your point, please move on to another. Going back to your previous dissapointments won't further the debate. We understand you had problems. You don't need to keep pointing it out.

And you're also indirectly insulting Amy and her work. I don't think she would like that.

I question Raziel being only a part of a prophecy, I see perhaps that Raziel was around in a previous incarnation at the start of the war between the Ancients and the Hylden, if not even before then.
So then if the Staff is a Hylden creation, why wouldn't it affect him BEFORE becoming the WB, if he wasn't a Hylden? I mean, if he was around before EITHER race, why wouldn't he just be immune to them (Ancient AND Hylden orchestrations) altogether?

heres a theory (not sure if this is incorrect) but once kain had janos' heart removed from his body he wasnt affected by the staff which could be down to kain being a necromantic (this is the correct term yes?) vampire. So I would imagine raziel and his brothers also to be necromantic so they would also be unaffected.
But once again, the whole WB idea is based on the Assumption that the WB absorbed the BR's energies. We don't know this to be true, since the Reaver was shattered when the WB was freed, and we don't know how the Reaver would react AFTER the WB was pulled from it. It's quite possible that the Reaver would rever to being the BR if the WB was removed, as if nothing had been absorbed.

Yes, it's a necromantic. Raised by dark forces from death.

The question is though, ARE Raziel and his bretheren the same types of Necromantic vampires.

We all know Kain's rebirth is slightly different than the others.
Due to the HoD being inside him after all
Kain was raised by a Human, the Death Guardian to be precise.

He didn't have any soul energy, or vampiric spirit breathed into him to pull his soul back. The events of Defiance, plus the scene in BO1 where his soul was imprisioned in the Underworld until Mortanius made his proposition is a little different than the way the 6 were raised. A necromantic vampire breathed a portion of his soul/energy (whatever tyheory you believe, I'm not trying to debate which is more right for this post) into 6 corpses and drew their souls back. This is slightly differnet than Kains rebirth. So it's a question of semantics, are they 100% the same, or are they a different breed altogether?

but thats wrong though as the BR doesnt restore it though
We don't know that for sure, because it's never been mentioned. If the BR had no effect on Raziels souls, then it would just be a soul like the others. It would probably revert back to it's Wraith form most likely. Yet the BR did affect him, it turned him into a blade. WHo knows what else it did to him. But it's all supposition at this point.

Maybe CD messed up or something
Now don't YOU start!!!

Honestly though, I'm going to wait until the TRUE final game before I start pointing out mistakes and inconsistencies. Because there is a lot that may just not have been explained yet. Everyone is too quick to say there are mistakes. They may just simply be things left for later to keep us wondering. As much research and work as Amy has put into these stories, and the research she has done, I doubt she would make as many mistakes as have been pointed out as of late.

Dogfight
6th Feb 2004, 06:54
I'm going in a different direction with a new deduction, incorporating what Amy said, don't jump to any conclusions, I haven't revealed my ace just yet.

I wasn't saying Amy was wrong only that there might be one small detail to the murals that has already been shown, possibly purposely put there by her, but overlooked by us. I'm talking about something new, not what I posted on another thread.


So then if the Staff is a Hylden creation, why wouldn't it affect him BEFORE becoming the WB, if he wasn't a Hylden? I mean, if he was around before EITHER race, why wouldn't he just be immune to them (Ancient AND Hylden orchestrations) altogether?

According to Amy, Defiance, and the staff, Raziel is both figures. How long he has been both figures, hasn't been revealed.

Again, I haven't yet revealed everything I've discovered, I will in due time, don't jump to the conclusion that Raziel was the same two beings at the same time in a past incarnation as he is now. There has to be a reason why he is both in Defiance, I'm sure Amy will explain it eventually.


Because you're counting an assumption as fact. There's no proof it is his Banner. I looked at the murals, and didn't see a "banner" that resembled Raziel's. In fact, I hardly saw one at all, and the armor was also off. If anything, only the color was similar.

Again, Amy and the staff said that Raziel is both of the figures in the murals, it doesn't matter if it is his banner from Soul Reaver 1 or not, because either way the figures are still Raziel. This is the official word.

I'm putting forth something new, which in your haste you've overlooked. Excellent work seeing how different the clothing is on the figures to Raziel's clothes, but you are missing the big picture, their clothing is also quite similar to Raziel's clothes from Soul Reaver 1. Alone this means nothing, but taken with what Amy and the staff said about Raziel being both figures and other clues along the way it leads you to the past. The only place of course where all the answers lie. You shouldn't jump to any speculations without some evidence. When I have revealed this new possible deduction I have uncovered, I will still tread cautiosly checking it for any possible flaws, until then give me some courtesy, have some patience and wait for it.

No need to discredit this new deduction of mine before I've fully presented it, I already said that the murals while duly noted representative of Raziel being both figures, could also just be artistic license. Then again besides what we already know by by the official word, how they represent both sides of Raziel, the Reedemer and Destroyer motif, there could be something more to them.

Brings back memories of the murals in Soul Reaver 2, each time murals are shown they reveal more and more about the past, what will the murals in the next game reveal about the past.

DJpick
6th Feb 2004, 08:37
How long he has been both figures, hasn't been revealed.
I assume he ALWAYS has been both. Since it's not like Tuesday you're a wraith, and then Wednesday you're both.

Unless you're trying to say there is a third set of murals. One where the HYlden win, one where the Ancients win, and the others where neither is really victorious, the murals just show a struggle.

Again, I haven't yet revealed everything I've discovered, I will in due time
What are you Sherlocke Holmes? Poirot? Perry Mason?

Again, Amy and the staff said that Raziel is both of the figures in the murals, it doesn't matter if it is his banner from Soul Reaver 1 or not, because either way the figures are still Raziel. This is the official word.
No he isn't. They both "represent" him, but they aren't actual physical drawings of him.

It's like the difference between me painting a red ball and saying it's an apple, or taking an actual picture of an apple. The red ball represnets the apple, but isn't REALLY the apple.

which in your haste you've overlooked
I don't overlook anything, I question everything.

their clothing is also quite similar to Raziel's clothes from Soul Reaver 1
But similar goes against it actually being him. If it actually was him, NOTH figures would look the same clothingwise. Just pointing out a missight.

but taken with what Amy and the staff said about Raziel being both figures and other clues along the way it leads you to the past.
Unless of course, EG just showed them a vision from the future, or Moebius and/or the Ancient time Guardian saw it. Don't forgot, some characters eem to be able to travel through time and see the events as they happen. So it's quite possible they are just simply visions of the future.

No need to discredit this new deduction of mine before I've fully presented it,
Kind of annoying isn't it. Remember that when you "critique" Amy before the series is complete.

what will the murals in the next game reveal about the past.
Who knows. The question is will the game be in the present or not.

Dogfight
6th Feb 2004, 14:25
I assume he ALWAYS has been both. Since it's not like Tuesday you're a wraith, and then Wednesday you're both.

Sure it is something like that. Raziel goes through his different incarnations, according to the series thus far, first he was human, then he was ressurrected as a Vampire, then he was brought back as a Wraith. When Raziel returned as a Wraith, he didn't return as any ordinary Wraith, but as something else, something unique.


No he isn't. They both "represent" him, but they aren't actual physical drawings of him.

The literal versus symbolic meaning remains interpretative. It could be as you've said one sided, the murals only being symbolic, in such a case they could stand for just about anything, or it could be that they are more than just symbolic and they do represent in fact two sides of Raziel's past. Amy and the staff haven't yet shown all the cards, buth they have hinted at them.


But similar goes against it actually being him. If it actually was him, NOTH figures would look the same clothingwise. Just pointing out a missight.

I pointed out the same thing. Even though the clothes of the figures are not exactly like Raziel's clothing, purposely done so, they are just close enough to his fashion sense to allude to something else, possibly Raziel's past.


Unless of course, EG just showed them a vision from the future, or Moebius and/or the Ancient time Guardian saw it. Don't forgot, some characters eem to be able to travel through time and see the events as they happen. So it's quite possible they are just simply visions of the future.

Yes, but then the clothes the figures wear would be the same, besides this the Elder and Moebius have never shown others the future, so far they've only shown others current events and at one time a few pieces of a past event.

Raziel did see some possible future events in Soul Reaver 1, but this was a result of the time portals in the Chronoplast Chamber, no telling who really built that place. I wouldn't attribute this incident to the Elder and Moebius.

I'm not saying that they can't show you the future, but then again I'm not saying that they can.


Kind of annoying isn't it. Remember that when you "critique" Amy before the series is complete.

I do more like question but only if there is more than enough reason and evidence to do so. I don't critique, but I do ask questions and try to find answers if something Amy or the staff says sounds contrary to the series. After this, I try to look for an explanation as to why this fact they gave became so contrary to the series in the first place.

I didn't know my actions gave the impression of critiquing, sorry about that, this was never my intention, I'll have to be more careful. Several times I actually praise Amy for the job she has done.


Who knows. The question is will the game be in the present or not.

This doesn't really matter, the past is always a factor in the LOK series. Even if the next game takes place wholly in the present or the future, or even in different time periods, Kain will still have to look at the past for answers. Whether by going back in time, discovering some new murals, or someone just plain telling him about the past, Kain will gain some new insights into the past.

DJpick
6th Feb 2004, 19:14
It could be as you've said one sided, the murals only being symbolic, in such a case they could stand for just about anything, or it could be that they are more than just symbolic and they do represent in fact two sides of Raziel's past. Amy and the staff haven't yet shown all the cards, buth they have hinted at them.
Here's the problem I see with that.

1. They represent his destiny, not his past. Amy and CD have referred to them as a reprresentation of his hybrid "destiny". Granted, he could go back in time, but still it wouldn't be his past. Which would still mean his human form was first.

2. The murals refer to something that hasn't happened yet. They were painted to try and persuade Raziel to make a choice. Which means if they were in the past, they couldn't be an unknown choice because he couldn't kill himself two times. Because if they were in the past, that means they would have already happened. And BOTH of those scenarios couldn't have happened based on the answer Amy has given.

Yes, but then the clothes the figures wear would be the same
No they wouldn't. If it was ahazy vision then they would come close, without seeing the actual thing. Just like the blurries on TV, or an out of focus picture.

besides this the Elder and Moebius have never shown others the future, so far they've only shown others current events and at one time a few pieces of a past event.
Actually EG showed Raziel at Avernus to Kain. And Moebius did drop some hints to Kain in BO1

Raziel did see some possible future events in Soul Reaver 1, but this was a result of the time portals in the Chronoplast Chamber
I'm sure the Time Streamer would use these events though in his manipulations though, seeing as how he Knew how to control the Cplast in SR2.

I'm not saying that they can't show you the future, but then again I'm not saying that they can.
I'm not saying they can show it to you either, But they are using it in their manipulations. But I'd willing to bet with 99% certainty that EG KNOWS the future, and could show it to you should he choose to do so, since he is everywhen.

but I do ask questions and try to find answers if something Amy or the staff says sounds contrary to the series. After this, I try to look for an explanation as to why this fact they gave became so contrary to the series in the first place.
Like I said, you should wait till the WHOLE series is complete before you question it then. Everyone asked about Turel for 3 games...

and that was finally answered in Defiance. It took a while, but it did get answered. But as of SR1 SR2 and BO2 it was an inconsistency. Yet, it DID get answered. Just have a little faith

I didn't know my actions gave the impression of critiquing, sorry about that, this was never my intention, I'll have to be more careful. Several times I actually praise Amy for the job she has done.
It kind of did :) You seemed to preoccupied with the inconsistencies and correcting them personally, instead of just waiting for the next game. That was just my interpretation though. Granted, I don't like inconsistencies or lingering questions either, I am willing to wait until the last game before I start saying "this was wrong though because it should have been like this".

Dogfight
6th Feb 2004, 22:28
Here is my reply.


Here's the problem I see with that.
1. They represent his destiny, not his past. Amy and CD have referred to them as a reprresentation of his hybrid "destiny". Granted, he could go back in time, but still it wouldn't be his past. Which would still mean his human form was first.

2. The murals refer to something that hasn't happened yet. They were painted to try and persuade Raziel to make a choice. Which means if they were in the past, they couldn't be an unknown choice because he couldn't kill himself two times. Because if they were in the past, that means they would have already happened. And BOTH of those scenarios couldn't have happened based on the answer Amy has given.

I agree with all of this, except the part about Raziel going back in time.

The direction I'm going with this is that the murals of the prophecy represent the future, but the figures individually by themselves may represent events that have their origin in the past, more precisely Raziel's past. Now, don't jump to any conclusions just yet, I haven't fully revealed my card.


No they wouldn't. If it was ahazy vision then they would come close, without seeing the actual thing. Just like the blurries on TV, or an out of focus picture.

This is certainly possible, I've covered this already by saying that the murals of the prophecy while representative of Raziel's destiny, could also just be artistic license.


I'm sure the Time Streamer would use these events though in his manipulations though, seeing as how he Knew how to control the Cplast in SR2.

I don't know about the Time Streamer knowing how to control the Chronoplast, he knew how to activate the time streaming chambers, but its never said how much Moebius knows about the Chronoplast which is more complicated to operate than the time streaming chambers and appears to send others to a specific location in space and time, instead of just another time era. Our only indication that Moebius has anything to do with this device is that the Chronoplast is often associated with Moebius because it is found in the caves of the Oracle.


But I'd willing to bet with 99% certainty that EG KNOWS the future, and could show it to you should he choose to do so, since he is everywhen.

I'm not that convinced the Elder knows the future, although he does know the future of many others because he writes their fates in his wheel, if there was someone who was free of his wheel, I doubt the Elder could see what they were going to do, even with what the staff said.

Amy said since Soul Reaver 1 that Turel would eventually appear , this was always a given, there was no reason to question her about this.


It kind of did You seemed to preoccupied with the inconsistencies and correcting them personally, instead of just waiting for the next game. That was just my interpretation though. Granted, I don't like inconsistencies or lingering questions either, I am willing to wait until the last game before I start saying "this was wrong though because it should have been like this".

Again I apologize for that, I'll work at being more patient.

DJpick
7th Feb 2004, 06:22
but the figures individually by themselves may represent events that have their origin in the past, more precisely Raziel's past. Now, don't jump to any conclusions just yet, I haven't fully revealed my card.
So Raziel fought himself in the past?

I'm not that convinced the Elder knows the future, although he does know the future of many others because he writes their fates in his wheel, if there was someone who was free of his wheel, I doubt the Elder could see what they were going to do
Well in SR2 EG mentioned things that happened in the future, so I'm pretty sure he can see it. And even if Raziel is truly free of his wheel, he knew what Raziel had failed to do.Although I guess you could say that is because Kain wasn't free, and he knew Kain was alive.

Amy said since Soul Reaver 1 that Turel would eventually appear , this was always a given, there was no reason to question her about this.
So it's ok to question her when she doesn't say she plans on doing? Just because some elements aren't outright explained, doesn't mean she doesn't have plans for them.

Dogfight
7th Feb 2004, 06:47
I'll reveal what I've found on a new thread soon enough.


So Raziel fought himself in the past?

No, that is not what I found.




Well in SR2 EG mentioned things that happened in the future, so I'm pretty sure he can see it. And even if Raziel is truly free of his wheel, he knew what Raziel had failed to do. Although I guess you could say that is because Kain wasn't free, and he knew Kain was alive.

I already covered a deductive argument on how the Elder might have a type of telepathic ability that allows him to read others minds.

Even if the Elder didn't have this ability, with his Wheel of Fate, Moebius as his servant, extensions of his body throughout Nosgoth, and other servants we don't know about, he could know the future or at least part of it without actually having any foreknowledge of it in the first place.


Just because some elements aren't outright explained, doesn't mean she doesn't have plans for them.

Yes I know this, I only question her when something appears currently to be a great inconsistency to the series and her answer validates this type of reponse. Besides this I would only do so if there is much evidence to support an argument.

A simple thing as a slightly longer answer from her, without revealing anything from the next game, would have probably have stopped me in my tracks long before I got started.

DJpick
7th Feb 2004, 06:51
I still don't think EG is telepathic. He can summon people so they hear him, but that doesn't mean he reads their minds. Like I said on your thread about that, it may just be a form of the whisper.

You know, I hope we see more of the whisper, I thought that was a cool story element surrounding the vampires that has been neglected after BO2.

But I digress...

A simple thing as a slightly longer answer from her, without revealing anything from the next game, would have probably have stopped me in my tracks long before I got started.
She's kind of busy writing the next greatest game in the world :)

Dogfight
7th Feb 2004, 07:02
You know, I hope we see more of the whisper, I thought that was a cool story element surrounding the vampires that has been neglected after BO2.

I hope we see some more human looking Vampires, and a confrontation between a more powerful Vorador and the older Kain.


She's kind of busy writing the next greatest game in the world

Yes I know, as I've said before beggars can't be choosers, I should just be thankful she answered any of our questions at all.