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Gumdrop
24th Jan 2004, 04:02
There has been a certain amount of talk/rumor fleeting around about the inclusion of wall climbing gloves in T3. I am interested in what your first reactions might be as far as the official missions go. I would further like to know what your thaughts are on how this might change the way fan missions work or how we play/tackle them.

Please vote in the category that generally suits you, and if need be discuss further below.

Huntress
24th Jan 2004, 04:39
Many moons ago Gums...this subject came up when we first started hearing about the "climbing gloves". I for one, do not care for the idea :( Garrett is a normal kindof Thief...that is to say, he is not "spiderman" :( Using a rope...jumping from rooftop to rooftop, etc. is the kindof character that is unique in this style of play; not to be confused with other type adventure characters that do other type of gymnastics! I like the more simplified, raw character of the Thief that was in the first two games...I don't need a Superman! If I wanted that kind of character..there are many "other" games that can offer that already! Again, Garrett is a unique character with a unique style of play and I'd like to see it remain close to the original...if it were possible? But I'm afraid it's already too late for that to happen :( Ta and Good Hunting!

Gumdrop
24th Jan 2004, 05:26
Yes I remember something about it along with the ninja climbing claws, but I agree with you... to a certain degree.

The game might lose some of the buzz a player can feel when he/she finally mantles up onto a window ledge to gain entry. This is a classic example, but one that I think has mostly been overlooked by OM's and FM's. Ofcourse it gets a bit tiresome if overused, but even now the original style of the game is hardly ever touched. But as far as WCG's go, I can see how it could easily go in that tiresome direction... over the top I mean!

Gaining access to a rooftop should always hold a certain amount of accomplishment in the eyes of the player, and the only thing I can think of that will limit where a player can go is by using only certain textures like vines (which I think Peter mentioned) which a player can use. But having said that, why the gloves in the first place?

I'm more interested in how people think this would effect the FM's. We don't know for sure what will be etc... but if WCG's do become part of the equipment list?

Orumph
25th Jan 2004, 15:52
To put it simply,

It will SUCK.

As has been said, Garrett is not Spiderman. I doubt they had anything like a WCG in those days. If they did, I think we would know about them. There might have been attempts at creating them, but I do wonder how effective they really were in those days. You can use all kinds of logic to support the use of them. But I really do think it will detract from what Garrett is. A modern day thief of the Dark Ages. I would think that his way of getting to a 2nd or 3rd floor window/roof would be a Rope Arrow. Which I had a lot of fun using. It does need to be enhanced to allow you to shoot across to a high (something) and swing over a large gap to a distant roof. WCG's might be interesting and all, but I think would make the game to easy to get around enemies.

Also, will they be able to be used on just about any walls? or only certain ones? The latter I think would be a useless utility belt slot waster.

My expectations of T3 being any where near as good as T2 are extremely low.

HOC
26th Jan 2004, 01:03
Originally posted by Gumdrop
There has been a certain amount of talk/rumor fleeting around about the inclusion of wall climbing gloves in T3. I am interested in what your first reactions might be as far as the official missions go. I would further like to know what your thaughts are on how this might change the way fan missions work or how we play/tackle them.

Please vote in the category that generally suits you, and if need be discuss further below.


i think it's an interesting idea. one that does deserve, at the least, a trial. i mean afterall, there are a variety of weapons/equipment in the game that extend well into the imagination.

i do however to an extent agree with some of the other opinions here. i think it will lie solely on the level design for the WCG to be successful, while maintaining the feel of the first two games.

i don't think the WCG will take away the fun of mantling....since it'll probably be more useful for getting up something with more height. although on what surfaces it can be used on...i dunno.
i'm hoping it would be used on wooden surfaces. for those times when there is no wooden beam or a piece of rooftop for a rope arrow to use. hell, i can even see it being used in a level where there's nothing but forest, and ya have to use the trees as your route to the objective. jumping from branches to trunks, and moving around the trunk like it was a pillar in prince of persia just so ya can get to another branch and progress.

those are just my ideas though. if looking glass was still around, i have a good feeling that more people would welcome the idea of of something new to the series. but since LGS aren't making t3 (from what i know), i'm not surprised to see some of the skeptics out in arms.

Huntress
26th Jan 2004, 02:29
As far as using them in FM's (think that was more to your question then)...answer is the same...NOPE! We have enough weapons/methods to use to get from place to place. Why do we need another (especially climbing gloves)? Even on a limited basis, I think is a bad idea IMHO. Yes the earlier diiscussion did lead to the fact that someone said the Chinese had them...but none-the-less, I think it would be detrimental to the overall gameplay! Why? Just to have some ppl get a little woopie at the idea of climbing walls with gloves? Doh...then they'll want to use them all the time, since why should they waste their time/trouble to use their other items/objects instead? No, I really don't think that would enhance the gameplay, just take away your thinking ability as to how to work your way to your goal and finding satisfaction from figuring it out yourself...that is the real reward ya know! ;) Ta and Good Hunting!

HOC
26th Jan 2004, 02:41
Originally posted by Huntress
As far as using them in FM's (think that was more to your question then)...answer is the same...NOPE! We have enough weapons/methods to use to get from place to place. Why do we need another (especially climbing gloves)? Even on a limited basis, I think is a bad idea IMHO. Yes the earlier diiscussion did lead to the fact that someone said the Chinese had them...but none-the-less, I think it would be detrimental to the overall gameplay! Why? Just to have some ppl get a little woopie at the idea of climbing walls with gloves? Doh...then they'll want to use them all the time, since why should they waste their time/trouble to use their other items/objects instead? No, I really don't think that would enhance the gameplay, just take away your thinking ability as to how to work your way to your goal and finding satisfaction from figuring it out yourself...that is the real reward ya know! ;) Ta and Good Hunting!

if the level design is good enough, ya won't be able to use it all the time, but will be forced to use other equipment items. the rope/vine arrows were implemented well enough in the first two games. and because the level design was good in the first two, hardly posed a problem when it came to short cuts and lack thereof.

in the end, i can definitely see the WCG working. as long as it's limitations are right. it definitely shouldn't be used for climbing stone walls, cause that would just kill the fun. but softer materials, then yeah.

unfortunately though i really don't have much faith in whoever is designing thief 3. again, i'd rather LGS be back on project. pity that won't happen. =(

Squid
26th Jan 2004, 06:00
Just as a note... someone said wall climbing gloves didn't exist in the Middle Ages. Wrong. While Western Europe didn't have them, the Far East sure did. They were called Tiger Claws and were worn across the palms of your hands and your feet. They could be used either as weapons or as climbing tools. I believe Chiefdreams has posted up a link to a site that sold them.

But yes, they are a real item, yes, they can be used in either wood or stone, and they've been around for a long, long time.

Squid

Peter_Smith
26th Jan 2004, 07:31
I posted the link.

I think climbing gloves may be a bad idea for Thief, not because of the climbing itself, but because it has a potential to be abused. It means, potentially, that you can go anywhere in 3-D. And, if it is possible to go anywhere, that means that designers will be tempted to put stuff anywhere, and the thorough player is obligated to explore it, so people may spend a lot of time climbing on walls rather than taking care of Thief business as we know it.

Wild Ambition
9th Feb 2004, 17:58
Say Garret needed to get to a certain window of a stone tower, but he couldn't use a rope. So he'd slap on the gloves and boots and begin to climb, but he would have to be careful cause using those gloves meant he would be making a lot of noise (since he has to drive the spiked gloves and boots into the stone wall), and attract attention.

In a situtation like that it would be interesting.

Huntress
11th Feb 2004, 01:22
Well I have to disagree with that scenerio...just because a good level designer would put other ways for our Garrett to get into that nice tall tower :) If there's no wooden frame or whatever to sink his rope arrow into...then by crackie...there "must be another way"??? YA :D Nope...no gloves, thanks anyway :) Ta and Good Hunting!

Kerghan
13th Feb 2004, 17:26
I think that the ability to climb is a good idea in general, but do we really need gloves to do it??? Climbing on realistic surfaces would be ok, like walls with large bricks that really stick out, but giving us the ability to climb all over the place just gives Garret too much of a superhero "look I have fancy gloves that give me super-human climbing powers" character.

Huntress
14th Feb 2004, 00:40
Well unfortunately I guess we're stuck with them anyway. Viewing the webbie..under Weapons (I think, whatever) says he gonna have climbing gloves :( !!!! Damn! I don't see any reference to rope arrows...just a general comment about having various arrows to use, but so far, only showing fire/water/noisemaker and no view of the HUD in screens except for that one we saw before with an Icon/number over it :( Some of these elements I'm not likin still and someone mentioned "leaning" was in from "side to side"? What about forward????? Hmmmm....Ta and Good Hunting!

Fafnir13
14th Feb 2004, 20:08
Oh joy, climibng gloves. Now we're getting into a 'wait for that item' style of play, where you'll see all sorts of places you can get into but can't yet because you don't have those wonderful climbing gloves. That wouldn't be much of a problem if the levels were unconnected (like the past 2) but now you'll want to back track once you get them. Have them at the start? Then what's the point of them?
One way or another, I'm afraid its just going to be a gimmick that will only get you to the places that the developers want you to get to.

Mike Fang
15th Feb 2004, 08:10
The climbing gloves might actually be an interresting tool. As someone said before, they might create noise, making it interresting to try and figure out how to use them without drawing attention.

Somebody I think also said that they wouldn't be useful because it would only be able to allow you to go where the designers wanted you to go.

Well.....can't you say that about walking anywhere? You can only go where the designers want you to go, you can't walk through mid air or walk on the water like you were Jesus Christ!

Oh, and somebody said that they thought that people would spend too much time climbing everything rather than doing what they were supposed to do. Jee, and here I thought exploration was part of what you were supposed to do! Yes, I think a person should follow the plot, but that doesn't mean that you're not supposed to investigate hard to reach places just because they're out of your way.

I think someone also said that walk climbing gloves would make it seem like Garret was this superhuman character. *raises an eyebrow* Come on, we're talking about climbing a wall like a rock climber, not flying up it a-la "Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon". I can't see Eidos making Garret sticking his arms out perpendicular to his body, moving his legs like he was pedaling a bike and levitating up a wall.

I know several people said that they liked the fact that Garret was like a regular person and not some super human daredevil. If Garret has the strength to climb a rope hand over hand, I think he can pull himself up a wall using special gloves. And I think a regular person, though maybe not necessarily one that's spent their every waking moment since the age of 10 in front of a tv stuffing chips and Cheetios in their face, given the proper equipment and enough nerve could climb a wall.

Psi Yamaneko
15th Feb 2004, 08:35
I, personally, think it's a neat idea. Garrett is a sinewy fellow and I can see him being able to scale a wall. And I don't think he can climb just ANY wall, anyway. Sheer surfaces are beyond him, right? I think they have to be brick.

And a while ago I heard that they wouldn't be very good for escaping guards that are coming down on you because Garrett has to tense his body and prepare himself before he can attempt the climb.

Will Guards with bows be able to shoot you down? That's another matter. I imagine they probably could.

Acronomic
17th Feb 2004, 18:23
Originally posted by Psi Yamaneko
I, personally, think it's a neat idea. Garrett is a sinewy fellow and I can see him being able to scale a wall. And I don't think he can climb just ANY wall, anyway. Sheer surfaces are beyond him, right? I think they have to be brick.


Exactly. He doesn't have to have the skills of Spiderman to scale a wall. :rolleyes:

And Mike Fang, you are completely right when you say that almost everyone can scale a wall. It's actually very easy when you've done it a couple of times. ;)

ninjafisk[dk-cph]
18th Feb 2004, 16:19
Is here actualy ANYBODY who really knows how they are going to work? So maybe we should wait with the complains until we have a demo, or something else were we can see how they work.
And personaly I think it's an interresting idea, but lets see now...

Squid
21st Feb 2004, 23:03
Just offhand, null, one of the developers, mentioned in a thread over at the Ion Storm forum that the climbing claws and mantling would be the primary methods of vertical movement. Something being the primary method implies that there are secondary methods. Now, we know the rope arrows are gone, and I'm assuming that the secondary method he was referring to wasn't stairs or ladders. So, what else could be used for vertical movement, besides rope arrows? Just plain ropes?

Squid

Huntress
22nd Feb 2004, 08:11
Squid, I think that was just a generic way of saying you won't have rope arrows anymore but climbing gloves/mantling instead of...nothing more than that I believe. Since that is now the primary and therefore the way to go vertically upwards since the gloves are the replacement way of getting up that way now whereas roping up/mantling and/or crate building (another possible alt way to get up?) were our primary methods before. If they can't or won't put rope arrows back into the game, I hardly think they're going to substitue a coiled rope or a grappling hook...LOL But who knows, maybe they might be easier to use for the console folks :D Lara, Indy and who knows who...they use'm! Guess if Garrett now uses Gloves...why not make him more like them (/end sarcasm) :( Sorry...just not very happy these days about the way they're going about making these games I was looking forward to so much! Good Hunting!

Vrbas
22nd Feb 2004, 23:11
Well i have read alot of opinions and most of them are on how it will effect the gameplay and make things 2 easy or 2 hard. Here is one of the bigger issues....... THEY AREN'T REALISTIC. Who gives a flying flip if the far east had tiger claws, in Garrets time they had ropes. You didn't see guards in the dark ages "scaling up walls" w/ their whoopdy doo climbing gloves, you saw them throwing a rope over a wall and catching it on something or shooting an arrow with a rope connected to it. It would seem alot more satisfying in my opinion to sink a rope arrow into window ledge, climb up it, and hop into the window rather than putting on some cheap gloves and scurrying up a STONE WALL and pulling yourself into a window. Put yourself in the person living in the dark ages, you are a guard for the king, you are patrolling outside the city walls and you look up and on the wall you see a black figure sticking onto on the wall like a fly that just hit a windshield, you would think he was some sort of superhuman. Now if you looked on the wall and saw a figure hanging from a rope, then you would feel like you were really in the dark ages. It's not realistic enough. Thats something people today would look at and say "wow, wall climbing gloves". People don't look at arrows with a rope on them and say "wow, neato, an arrow with a rope tied to it". That is of the past and climbing gloves just don't fit what i consider the "olden days". It is a shame that rope arrows, one of a master thiefs true tools, is going to be left out of this game. It won't ruin the game but it is a huge loss for me and many other fans of Thief:DP and Thief:MA

van_HellSing PL
22nd Feb 2004, 23:28
Rope arrows are just physically impossible. Here's why:

1. A rope has it's weight. Garrett would have to have superhuman strength if he was to shoot an arrow with a rope attatched to it.

2. Speaking of which, where does all that rope come from anyway?

3. What are those arrows made of if they can hold a thief loaded with equipment & loot and not brake?

Squid
23rd Feb 2004, 05:11
Vrbas, I wasn't aware that the Dark Ages has electricity, steam engines, robots, and cybernetic servants. Nor was I aware that magic really worked, the dead walked, nor that someone could teleport inbetween places. Let's not forget sentinent trees, floating glowing balls of light, living gods with eyes in their foreheads, or crystals that, when broken, grow moss.

Yes, Thief is Highly Realistic.

Frankly, climbing gloves are a LOT more realistic than an arrow that has a rope magically sprout out of it's end. You want realism? Here's how rope arrows Actually Work.

First of all, you need a special arrowhead. It either needs to be able to stick into the surface, (thus requiring a bow with a lot of poundage,) or it needs to have tines designed to hook onto anything the arrow strikes or passes by. Next, the arrow has to have an eyelet, (a screw with a circle on the end.) Before you shoot the arrow, you must loop a string through the eyelet. Then, once the arrow has hit it's target, and assuming that something bad hasn't happened to the string, you tie your climbing rope to one end of the string, then pull on the other end of the string. Once the rope has reached the arrow, you tie off the string. Then, you cross the rope and pray that nothing fails, otherwise, you're eating pavement.

This is a long, complicated process that is very prone to failure. So, most second story thieves used either grappling hooks on ropes, or Climbing Claws to aid their ascents. Ladders, stacked boxes, etc... any method to get someone up there was preferrable to a flimsy arrow that's prone to breaking.

Squid

coldplay_josh_106
23rd Feb 2004, 19:14
Originally posted by Orumph
To put it simply,

It will SUCK.

As has been said, Garrett is not Spiderman. I doubt they had anything like a WCG in those days. If they did, I think we would know about them. There might have been attempts at creating them, but I do wonder how effective they really were in those days. You can use all kinds of logic to support the use of them. But I really do think it will detract from what Garrett is. A modern day thief of the Dark Ages. I would think that his way of getting to a 2nd or 3rd floor window/roof would be a Rope Arrow. Which I had a lot of fun using. It does need to be enhanced to allow you to shoot across to a high (something) and swing over a large gap to a distant roof. WCG's might be interesting and all, but I think would make the game to easy to get around enemies.

Also, will they be able to be used on just about any walls? or only certain ones? The latter I think would be a useless utility belt slot waster.

My expectations of T3 being any where near as good as T2 are extremely low.


To be fair, I think that wall climbing gloves seem slighty more realistic than a rope arrow. And you say they they wouldnt have had wall climbeing gloves in those days, but since when has anybody had water arrows or gas arrows or fire arrows.

Also i seem to recall the rope arrow having some floors. For example you wouldnt be able to reach a third floor window with a rope arrow because once you firerd the rope arrow it wouldnt strech that far down.

Dont get me wrong i will miss the rope arrow dearly! but dont u think we should give the rope arrow a chance!?

Vrbas
23rd Feb 2004, 22:53
Well let me start out by saying that YES they did have magic in the dark ages. Why the hell call it a dark age unless there isn't something supernatural in the world? Yes, people did rise from the dead back then. It doesn't take "technology" for things to raise from the dead. Most medieval games or movies have things that rise from the dead. It is almost like it was common back then, i mean to see ghost and have the dead walk. Also, yes there were living gods w/ eyes in their foreheads. Dang dude, have you not read any mythological books in your life? Magic seemed to be more common back then than it does now. It almost seems like that 1 eyed monsters, magic, and dead things walking fits in pretty well with the medieval times and dark ages. Dude, the dark ages would suck if their weren't any monsters or magic. That is what made the dark ages one of the most unusual time periods. To sum it all up, most of the stuff you said didn't sound realistic back then actually, if you think about it, it does. I will hand it to you that steam engines and cybornetic helpers along with any other machinery is very unrealistic. But i think that Thief was set in a 1/2 fantasy world and a 1/2 Medieval world.

Squid
24th Feb 2004, 08:36
Hmmm....

Yes, I've read mythology. Lots of mythology. Lots and lots of mythology. But before this goes somewhere we both don't want it to go, let me ask you a question.

When you are referring to climbing claws not being realistic, are you referring to the real world, or the game world? When I'm talking about climbing claws being realistic, I'm referring to the real world. Mostly in Europe during the Dark Ages, (so called because the great civilizations of the past, such as the Romans, the Greeks, and the Egyptian, were dead, and the light of reason and learning was almost gone from Western Europe,) they actually used climbing daggers, instead of claws. Climbing daggers were long and thin. They could bite into wood easily or slip into cracks in stonework. The user then could use them as ledges or steps. In the Far East, they used climbing claws.

If you're referring to climbing claws not being realistic to the game world, then there's a simple answer to that. Whether climbing claws are realistic for Thief's setting is a matter of personal taste, and nothing more. Therefore, both of our points of view are equally valid.

Thief is most definitely set in a psuedo medieval/fantasy universe with a crossing of industrial power. You could almost call it steampunk, but it doesn't quite fit there, either. Thief is it's own world, and I, for one, am very glad it's so unique. I would love to get my hands on the setting's bible, or even a gaming supplement detailing all the ins and outs of the setting. The setting is, in a word, fascinating.

Squid

coldplay_josh_106
24th Feb 2004, 18:20
Vrbas, your not makin sense dude, first you said you thought that WCG wernt realalistic. Then you admit that in the dark ages was full of magic potions ands ghosts and monsters and such. Make your mind up man! ;) :D

Vrbas
24th Feb 2004, 21:58
Originally posted by coldplay_josh_106
Vrbas, your not makin sense dude, first you said you thought that WCG wernt realalistic. Then you admit that in the dark ages was full of magic potions ands ghosts and monsters and such. Make your mind up man! ;) :D

According to a number of mythological books, most of these things were included into the world that the mythological characters lived in. Mythology isn't known for having only swords and stone walls, it is known for the amount of strange and supernatural things that occupied it's time. I mean if fictional and fantasy books could have Cyclops, sea nymphs, and weeds that cry blood then why is Thief, a game set between the FANTASY world and the Medieval times, any exception? Maybe you are misunderstanding me. I am basing my opinion on "realism" according to the number of books that i have read that take place in the medieval times. I am not saying that in the present day we have dead things walking around and demons with eyes on their forehead. I am saying that according to many Medieval books and movies that i don't see where wall climbing gloves fit in. What was the last medieval book you read that had any type of gloves used to climb walls? Now name the numerous amounts of books that contain ropes, arrows, ropes tied to arrows and such. I dunno, WCG just sounds too "high tech" for me. But then again so do cybornetic servants and steam powered machinery. In my opinion, i see Thief as a Medieval game, but really it is more of a fantasy mixed with industry type of game that seems pretty far fetched. I would rather have any machines and any other technology removed from the game if i had any say in it. Therefore making Thief a 100% medieval game. But it's not. Remember, i am basing these things not of the world today, but of the fantasy world according to medieval books.

van_HellSing PL
24th Feb 2004, 22:54
The funniest thing is that Thief isn't that much medieval :p Ya americans tend to be confused about this because you didn't have any middle ages in the first place ;). Thief is more renaissance mixed with victorian than medieval.

coldplay_josh_106
24th Feb 2004, 23:31
OH man it dont matter wot ever u say!

Personally im finding that people (!!!not mentioning names!!!) are getting a little worked up over the idea that there isnt a rope arrow in the game! I think your going a little over the top reading medevil books man! ;)

It dont bother me, I'm just gunna play the game, if its ***** then it ****! and from the info ive heard i dont think the changes that have been are too life changing! i'm looking forward to it, and although i do share most of the opinions that have been made on this forum, im still gunna give thief a chance!

Squid
25th Feb 2004, 08:14
*whew* For awhile there, I though you were talking about real life, Vrbas. (Don'tcha love miscommunication on the internet?)

Yea, in terms of a medieval/renaissance technology, not to mention most fantasy books, climbing claws are rare. But there's a few out there that have them. I believe the Valdamar series by Mercedes Lackey has them. I also think that one of the villians used them in the Belgariad by David Eddings. But those are the only references I can think of offhand.

However, D&D has them, and I usually equip my thieves with them, just in case.

Really, it's all a matter of personal taste. And you'll be glad to hear that Spector has said that there's no robots at all in Thief: Dark Shadows. (Actually, I wish he'd keep the watchers in and some of the alarm systems, for those were challenging to get by, but the walking, clanking, hissing tanks were a pain in the patookus.)

Squid

Vrbas
25th Feb 2004, 21:52
I just don't want them "taking away old things" in this new addition to the Thief series. I have no problem with "adding" but when it comes to "replacing", "omitting", and "instead of 'this' we have 'this'". I want, and i know that there are many other fans out there that want this to, this game to have everything that Thief 1 and 2 did. Plus the new additions that they choose from. But when you take away something original, it is liking taking away an aspect of the game. Like the sword, the sword played a very important role in the game. Well, for me it did. It was a last resort when all other things fail and there is no more running and flashbombing people. It's time to stand up and show them that a thief can do more than just run.

Vrbas
25th Feb 2004, 21:53
I just don't want them "taking away old things" in this new addition to the Thief series. I have no problem with "adding" but when it comes to "replacing", "omitting", and "instead of 'this' we have 'this'". I want, and i know that there are many other fans out there that want this to, this game to have everything that Thief 1 and 2 did. Plus the new additions that they choose from. But when you take away something original, it is liking taking away an aspect of the game. Like the sword, the sword played a very important role in the game. Well, for me it did. It was a last resort when all other things fail and there is no more running and flashbombing people. It's time to stand up and show them that a thief can do more than just run.

Vrbas
25th Feb 2004, 21:54
I just don't want them "taking away old things" in this new addition to the Thief series. I have no problem with "adding" but when it comes to "replacing", "omitting", and "instead of 'this' we have 'this'". I want, and i know that there are many other fans out there that want this to, this game to have everything that Thief 1 and 2 did. Plus the new additions that they choose from. But when you take away something original, it is liking taking away an aspect of the game. Like the sword, the sword played a very important role in the game. Well, for me it did. It was a last resort when all other things fail and there is no more running and flashbombing people. It's time to stand up and show them that a thief can do more than just run.

Vrbas
25th Feb 2004, 22:31
My bad, computer went whack.

coldplay_josh_106
25th Feb 2004, 23:11
Vrbas, this is also what i sed my friend. I agree that ion storm havent quite got there heads fixed on right! they want to improve thief, but you cant improve somthing by taking some of the best ellements of the game away! They should be adding things and not replacing them!

Although I am not going to let this worry me. Personally i believe that the WCG are a neat idea! the rope arrow will be sworly missed, but i am keeping an open mind on the WCG.

theBlackman
1st Mar 2004, 23:55
Originally posted by van_HellSing PL
Rope arrows are just physically impossible. Here's why:

1. A rope has it's weight. Garrett would have to have superhuman strength if he was to shoot an arrow with a rope attatched to it.Incorrect. A rope braided of horsehair (which exists and existed) or silk would be light weight. It could also be as small as 3/8 inch diameter and still carry a man's weight with safety limits. A 50 foot coil would be about a third the weight of one made of sisal, hemp, or manila.

2. Speaking of which, where does all that rope come from anyway? if you paid attention you would have learned that it is MAGIC. The arrows (as well as other objects in Garrett's world) are possessed of magic capability.

3. What are those arrows made of if they can hold a thief loaded with equipment & loot and not BREAKbrake? Crossbows fire short quarrels made of metal. These secure pitons to cracks, and wooden beams in real life, and have ropes attached to them. A Rope arrow could be made of such a material. This would give it the strength, but again, MAGIC. Magic exists in Garrett's world. If this is a problem to you, then potions for speed, health, invisibility, slowfall, and every other object NOT OF THIS REAL WORLD, should make you just as uncomfortable. Be real friend. IT'S A GAME. All things are possible.

Kayscha
2nd Mar 2004, 12:45
Originally posted by theBlackman


IT'S A GAME. All things are possible.



Not at all.
A game, any game, is defined by rules and limits. A complex game with a strong storytelling element such as Thief must further consider the restrictions of good storytelling. Thus it must have rules and limits which 'fit together' and don't contradict each other, providing a coherent and conving background and narrative. The setting of the past Thief games was a low fantasy setting where magic was existent, but practised in secret or in religion and well guarded from the eyes and hands of the common public. Devices available to one such as Garrett should be of a very low level magic, especially since they are considered disposable. Rope arrows as we had in part 1 & 2 have always stretched my illusion of disbelief to its limits. If a grappling hook would do the job, Garrett shouldn't have to resort to anything magical, so rope arrows shouldn't be magical at all. (neither should the other arrows be - the noise arrow could be a small mechanical device, and the moss arrow might be based on a peculiar plant which would be thoroughly believable even in a low fantasy world).
In real life, on the other hand, anything IS possible ;)



A rope braided of horsehair (which exists and existed) or silk would be light weight. It could also be as small as 3/8 inch diameter and still carry a man's weight with safety limits. A 50 foot coil would be about a third the weight of one made of sisal, hemp, or manila.



That's still too heavy to be shot precisely over any distance. Thrown, yes, but not shot with a bow. Also, did you consider how think a rope needs to be if you are to pull yourself up without other supports (like a wall next to it)? At least an inch, I'd guess...



Crossbows fire short quarrels made of metal. These secure pitons to cracks, and wooden beams in real life, and have ropes attached to them. A Rope arrow could be made of such a material. This would give it the strength, but again, MAGIC. Magic exists in Garrett's world. If this is a problem to you, then potions for speed, health, invisibility, slowfall, and every other object NOT OF THIS REAL WORLD, should make you just as uncomfortable.



Crossbows pack a whole lot more punch than a bow, and even then the bolt would have to be driven into the wood very deep indeed, even with a specal hook to hold it in place. Even then, the process of securing a rope on it should take a lot of time.

Potions of speed, strength and health can be assumed as certain drugs and painkillers which would have such an effect. Slowfall and especially invisibility, on the other hand, hardly fit the scenario and shouldn't have been made available to Garrett in the first place.

theBlackman
2nd Mar 2004, 18:56
The limits of a GAME are only those defined by the rules of the fantasy world that game takes place in.

In Garrett's world the rope arrow is allowed. :D The other forms of Magic that occur are also within the Game world he inhabits. It's a game. In this particular game, these objects and actions exist within the rules of that world.

If reality is what you want, don't play THIEF or the MARIO BROS. Play Splinter Cell or some other such.

I don't know about the rest of the THIEF community, but I don't want reality. I want the medieval, mystic, magic world that Garrett, and the Keepers started in.

grafixmonkey
2nd Mar 2004, 19:49
Have ANY of you ever actually shot a bow and arrow? You realize right that arrows do not arch through the air nearly as much as they do in Thief 1 and 2? The drop due to gravity of an arrow shot from my 45 pound bow from across my yard (about 200 feet) is about six inches tops. And you could hit targets just great in Thief even with that ridiculous amount of arching. Actually, if I place the notch of an arrow on my finger and throw the thing I can make it arch just about like a Thief 1/2 arrow. On to rope arrows.

Why would a rope arrow have to be magic? The water arrows were just a crystal chamber filled with water, that broke. Why couldn't a rope arrow have a little chamber that opens, and can be resealed? I have personally fired arrows that weigh up to three pounds from a weak 20 pound bow. In fact, thousands of people across the whole US and probably more across the world do this all the time, in a group called Dagorhir. They take real arrows, remove the field tips, and construct a large foam pad attached to a metal plate that is duct-taped to the arrow and covered with a bunch of sturdy cloth, so they can shoot each other in the face with them and not get injured. The final result weighs two to three pounds, depending on the construction, and can be fired maybe 100 to 150 feet using a 20 pound bow. Give it a more powerful bow like my 45-pounder, you could really let that sucker fly, probably farther than any arrow you've ever shot in Thief 1 or Thief 2. Give it a REAL bow like they used in warfare in the middle ages, and you'd have no problem sinking a metal arrow with a canister of any kind of rope a foot into a wooden beam from across the room.

The mechanics of getting the canister of rope past the notch on the bow, I'll leave up to the imagination, but seriously guys this does not require magic to do, and even if it did it would be fine. I don't hear anyone complaining that you could sit on top of a 3-inch-by-3-inch dark spot on the floor in the middle of a daylit room and suddenly be so invisible that a guard can walk 6 inches from your nose and not see you. If you want realism, then your visibility should depend on the amount of light hitting you as well as the amount of light on the objects behind you from the guard's point of view. You think a guard would ignore a big 4-foot-tall hulking shadowy thing that he can see obscuring the light of the hallway behind it, just because it's dark and shadowy?

At least, thankfully for Thief gameplay, it's not feasible to do this kind of checking real-time with a typical gaming processor. (oh wait, it's Ion Storm, they might try to put it in anyway...)

theBlackman
2nd Mar 2004, 20:30
With the 60# I used to hunt with, a metal arrow could easily go a couple inches into a tree from quite a distance away. In the 20 to 40 foot distance of Garrett's shots, no sweat.

To peg a beam and have the shaft hold a weight suspended near the tip of such an arrow (outside of the beam) is definitely possible.

From the fletched end, no. But have you noticed? Garrett's ropes are AT THE TIP WHERE THE ARROW IS IN THE BEAM. :D

Xcom
2nd Mar 2004, 21:04
Originally posted by Kayscha
so rope arrows shouldn't be magical at all

Precisely.

A rope arrow is made out of very peculiar wood (which is very strong) and very peculiar metal. Tiny and very peculiar caterpillar is attached to the back side of an arrow, in between the feathers. Needless to say, the little bugger can't let go. When arrow is fired, caterpillar is being "stimulated" by air friction and releases a very peculiar string which is unbelievably strong. No magic there.

See, in Garrett's world this technology has been thoroughly tested and found working and safe to use. ;)

Guineapiggy
2nd Mar 2004, 22:04
Erm... hate to dissapoint but the dark ages were called the dark ages because society regressed in to a primitive state and almost all societies seemed to lose the abillity to scribe and document happenings, meaning we know very little about the period. Hence the 'dark'.

Now that's gone, let me get back on track :P

As for Thief, as far as I can tell it's renaissance mixed with some strange, cool localised technology advances and small levels of magic, as has pretty much already been said but I do not like the glove idea, simply because the only reason it's there is because it's easier for console players to use than rope arrows. Sure, you can scale certain walls but within a building when it's so slow and noisy I fail to see how they can include it without making it totally stupid and lame. I just hope they don't make it a requirement for completing the game, much as rope arrows weren't, simply so I can refuse to use them much at all. I intend to do the same with autoaim if possible and definitely avoid touching third person views.

theBlackman
2nd Mar 2004, 23:09
Originally posted by Xcom
Precisely.

See, in Garrett's world this technology has been thoroughly tested and found working and safe to use. ;)

THUMB

Kayscha
3rd Mar 2004, 01:57
I stand to be corrected. If it is indeed possible to shoot a metal arrow with a large, evenly distibuted 1+ pound rope and an ingenious device that triggers the rope to fall upon impact with reasonable precision and still strong enough to penetrate wood of a broad variety of qualites a couple deep enough to hold a couple hundred pounds reliably, my argument against rope arrow is completely void.
Not that Garrett's bow looked like anything other than a single wood short bow as opposed to modern day high tech hunting bows, but I suppose we could accept composite bows in this setting.

Still, I argue that a simple grappling hook still makes more sense than the rope arrow - it's cheap, simple to use and reuse and likely more versatile than the arrow.

edit: as for the dark ages - this term originally signified the lack of enlightenment scholars of the Renaissance and later the so-called Age of Enlightenment attested the time span between fall of 'enlightened' Rome and their own (also 'enlightened', of course) time, the 'medium aevum'.
Only modern historians started to refer by 'dark' to the lack of written sources from that time, which in fact only applies to a part of the medieval and only parts of Europe, too. It has since been shown that the moniker 'dark age' most fittingly describes the actual situation in any part of Europe in that era during nighttime, since light sources were unreliable and/or expensive and would only be used very little for such things as lighting the way, rendering nighttime settlements absolutely dark.

theBlackman
3rd Mar 2004, 02:05
Agreed.

A grappling hook was developed for FM use a few years ago. I don't know if it has been implemented in any FM's. I have not yet played one that had the Grappling hook as a tool.

jabpn
11th Mar 2004, 06:42
I don't think this has ever been brought up before. What if the wall climbing gloves are more of a tool allowing you to get "better" grip. I.e. you need these gloves to scale or climb walls that have hand holes/foot holes. In other words rock climbers today use chalk to insure their hands stay dry while hanging onto handholds. I for one wouldn't mind the change from rope arrows to WCG if this was the case. A tool to use "naturally" occuring outcroppings. This I think would keep the atmosphere of Thief alive and maintain the previous Thief's spirits.

Although I think a combination of rope arrows/WCG would be cool. Use a rope arrow to get up to the handholds and then use WCG from there. I definately think they should make the climbing kind of slow though to better simulate reality no matter how they implement the WCG.

aelburr
11th Mar 2004, 08:50
I'd be willing to bet the last post is close to the mark. These gloves aren't going to let you climb ANY wall, just certain types and frankly, the lack of wall climbing in the first two games bumbed me out. Anyone who's read any of the classic fantacy thief stories or even the modern ones knows how common the concept is.

Those that want to call it unrealistic are simply overestimating how much you will be able to climb. Instead of the luckily placed wood beam or grate you'll have the handy patch of rough hewn stone. It won't affect gameplay much and is as appropriate to the game as anything.

The only thing I'll miss about rope arrows is stunts like I used in the bank level of T2 where you could use several rope arrows in a row to play Tarzan and move from one elevated location to another.

Paajtor
11th Mar 2004, 09:00
I have some interesting links for you guys:

- first-off, it's either Medievals or Middle Ages link (http://www.wsu.edu:8080/~brians/errors/medieval.html).

- a few facts (http://www.learner.org/exhibits/middleages/) about those times.

- 2 "secret texts"...both links are gems, imo:

Secret Book (http://www.funet.fi/pub/culture/occult/hermetica/alchemy/secret_book)

Night Magic (http://www.funet.fi/pub/culture/occult/misc/night.magick)

Especially the last one is a nice read, and makes you longing for the night. LOL.:D

Vrbas
11th Mar 2004, 17:39
I've changed my mind about the WCG. I mean, i will miss the rope arrows like no other and never find a chance to forgive Ion Storm for taking them out but i am going to openly allow the WCG to come into play as long as they don't allow us to misuse them. Like some other people said, maybe they don't have any special "stick" or "grip" to them. Maybe they are just used to prevent his hands from getting soars. When i saw Garrett climb the wall in one of the demos, i didn't see it as WCG, i saw at as Garrett, by himself, pulling himself up a wall just like you and i would scale a brick wall. I doubt Ion Storm put these gloves in to the game to illustrate their "magical" or "special stick, spike, whatever" capabilities. I think they just put them in there as a new way of vertical movement. If you ask me, i think they should have included this "wall climbing" ability in the 1st 2 thief titles. Personally, i don't see the need for gloves. I only see the need of a scalable wall, a nimble thief, and a good grip. That's all. Again, rope arrows will be on the top of my most wanted list but i am not going to let this ruin the game for me.

grafixmonkey
12th Mar 2004, 17:59
Originally posted by Kayscha

Not that Garrett's bow looked like anything other than a single wood short bow as opposed to modern day high tech hunting bows, but I suppose we could accept composite bows in this setting.
My 45# bow is just a single wood recurve, just like Garret's. No pulleys or compoundness there.

And I don't think the wall climbing gloves were an addition for console players... Console playing people can shoot plenty accurately enough in games like Halo, and in Thief you have plenty of time to aim and fire without worrying about being shot before you shoot back. A rope arrow would be quite easy to fire with a thumb stick and be able to hit into an object, without using auto-aim. Managing sword combat between multiple guards so that you can block and run away, probably not - but rope arrows, no problem.

I can see why they would reject rope arrows. Now that I think about it, rope arrows are really hard to control from a gameplay perspective. If you want to prevent the player from using them in a certain area, you have no choice but to make the walls and ceiling out of stone, with no wooden accents on anything. Wall climbing gloves, you just have to make the climbable surfaces not lead anywhere that helps you. The player also has to distinguish between the surfaces the creators made "rope arrowable" and the surfaces they didn't, something I got a little frustrated with at times when I shot a rope arrow into a surface I was sure was wood, and heard a "klank" and lost the arrow because the programmers hadn't thought of the possibility of putting a rope arrow there.

EDIT: You guys actually thought you'd be able to climb on any wall or ceiling freely, with no control over where you could go? No wonder you were complaining! It was obvious from the start that the gloves would only be useful on certain surfaces that the level designers decided should be climbable.

Kayscha
12th Mar 2004, 21:42
Not to be picky, but: recurve, and possibly using carbon or aluminum arrows? That'd still be a hefty difference to a non-recurve short bow with not just wooden, but weighted wooden arrows, wouldn't it?
Awww, I guess I really am picky here, but the fact is I was so surprised at hearing about the sheer performance of your arrows it must've hurt my silly pride somehow. ;) Just ignore my rambling.

Oh, and since I'm already being an a**: it's just 'the medieval', no plural here, is there? After all, it's from medium aevum and that's definitely singular :P

Anyway, just to add something to this thread: I am getting more and more comfortable with those climbing gloves, especially if they turn out to not enable but instead improve your ability to climb. Now if they'd only have a grappling hook to go along with that... :D

grafixmonkey
13th Mar 2004, 04:59
A recurve bow is just a "normal" bow that curves slightly away from the string at the top and bottom, to give a bit more force and draw length. It doesn't involve anything that wasn't around way back in "garrett time" whenever that was.

If you wanna get that technical about it, I want to see somebody explain Garrett hiding a bow, a sword, blackjack, 25 to 50 broadhead arrows, 15 water arrows, two noisemakers, two rope arrows (complete with large metal rope canister and barbed "magic release" superglue tipped field heads), four moss arrows, a key ring, several potions, and numerous bags of coins, tiaras, eyeglasses, diamonds, "special crystals" and golden decorative hammers, all under his cloak, and still be able to sneak around two steps behind a guard without him hearing anything.

I don't think they had bubble wrap or foam padding in the Middle Ages. :rolleyes:

Kayscha
13th Mar 2004, 10:24
He obviously had a cloak of holding in T1&2. ;)
However, since he hasn't got a cloak in T: DS, this bodes not well about inventory space :O

;)

Vrbas
14th Mar 2004, 19:33
I'd like to see him hide all that WITHOUT a cloak.

TheOriginalNobody
14th Mar 2004, 20:06
He never wore his cloak in missions. Look at yourself in the scouting orb. He does in the cutscenes though

grafixmonkey
14th Mar 2004, 21:05
Wait... if he doesn't have a cloak or any bulky clothing, where would he hide all that stuff?

....


oh wait... never mind... eww, no wonder the guards comment on a funky odor when they pass by!

DreXor
25th Jul 2004, 17:07
ok then, if there's no climbing claws, telephone pole spikes or "climbing" skill for the extreme-sportist Garrett, can someone please explain the media trailer on the TDS offical homepage? like a moron after watching the vid, i tried repeatedly to master the skill of hiking up that wall... needless to say, curiously i couldn't...:D

wolfsbane
25th Jul 2004, 19:01
Originally posted by Kayscha
He obviously had a cloak of holding in T1&2. ;)
However, since he hasn't got a cloak in T: DS, this bodes not well about inventory space :O

;)

he sure does a good job with space management for carrying his loot all over the place :)

jm

DreXor
26th Jul 2004, 02:00
ok as for the likelyhood of rope arrows, QUITE possible, search the internet sometime for bowfishing.

the factor of HOW the arrow looks no, not quite possible, the rope yes is pretty heavy in the game, but as for the likelyhood of it working it is very plausible.

think of a 2 part arrow,wood shaft with a steel shank and head with a loop eyenear the end of this section, thin heavy duty rope or even fine cable is quite capable of holding a person, heck even rope made from silk would contain the strength to hold a person as priorly noted. as for "magic release" what if the wood shank is connected to barbs, more like teeth, in the head, upon impact it presses the barbs out into the wood, pulling the shaft then would retract the barbs and also help pull the arrow out ... yet since the rope is attached to the head/shank, it wouldn't interfere with the barb seating/release mechanism

climbing gloves, what if they're designed to work in cracks, a simple expander mechanism on a twist, 2 anchor tabs are shoved in a crack like most old buildings made of stone were riddled with these types of grooves turn your wrist or a pulling action from applied weight could also cause the expanding mech to lock into one of these cracks... in a simpler outlook, think of wrist loops with mini crowbars or something similar to a soil cultivator for gardening, basically a 3 prong pitchfork bent @ 90+ degrees, catch these in the cracks and climb with them, and in a even more simplistic outlook, ever seen ice scaling boots? just sharp spikes, or even a small billet or tang steel mounted into a boot plate, or on a flatplate in the palm of a glove could scale a medival wall without too much trouble.

it is a game after all, there is some level of logic, laws, physics and so forth involved in it, including the magic, it does a certain amount of damage, travels at a certain speed, and if all these rules are defined, pretty much anything is plausible in a game. BUT just because it's not overly LIKELY to be in the REAL world... doesn't mean it's completely outlandish. if you have such issues with the reality of things i might recommend you avoid playing games, watching movies, and possibly even tv.

oh, forgot to note, for the rope arrow, for the supply of rope, search the internet for "rescue belt knot" it's just a way of storing alot of rope in a small area, no need for a huge metal canister.