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johnqpublic
7th Dec 2003, 08:39
Seems like quite a stew brewing over the recent release of Deus Ex 2. A germane stew that may boil over into the Thief3 camp.

If the current trend of console-biased development continues then I imagine oldschool pc gamers will either need to join the hamburger legions and start gaming on PS2/X-box or compromise their tastes so that they may appreciate the new titles being released.

PC game versions nowadays are more like departing gifts/consolation prizes compared to the console versions.

Based on current trends I am somewhat leery of pc games to which I previously anticipated.

Yes, others advised me to chill out and have faith (blind?) when I was skeptical of StarWars KotOR (I had been burnt by Pirates of the Caribbean). Sure enough, my concerns were founded.

What does Thief3 share with DeusEx2?
Same company?
Same devs/programmers?
Same funding/$$$?

The fanboys are sycophants and will support Thief3 regardless of quality. The jaded hardcore pc gamers (such as myself) are uneasy. The console crowd have much to celebrate though.

I will wait until well after Thief3 is released to read reviews and give it a try. I hope for this particular title my fears are wrong as I really liked Thief1&2.

Baroque
7th Dec 2003, 09:55
I have been following the hype and letdown about Deus-Ex 2 too.
Pulling myself back quietly to the Thief side of the Eidos forums, as
in the end the Thief-series are the best and most enjoyable pc-games i have ever played and still play.

Ofcourse im eager for the new follow-up Thief 3, but im not having
that high expectations...since i believe they influence your honest
opinion and appreciation mostly negative and can make you too
dependable.

Times and people are changing.
I have been noticing myself seeking out great horror-movies from
the seventies and eighties, so i believe with games also you can say they dont make them like this anymore.

Regards,

Beagle Boy
7th Dec 2003, 20:06
Read Warren spector's interview (already posted on the Dx:Iw forum)

http://pc.ign.com/articles/444/444433p2.html

Baroque
7th Dec 2003, 21:36
I read it and the only conclusion i can make out of it :

the game loses its chemistry since it leaves out too much the natural elements but fills in the proposed ones

So Warren S. is mainly defending/explaining his decisions, but the
prob is he should just not have taken those decisions.

johnqpublic
8th Dec 2003, 09:10
Time waits for no man.

These are sad times indeed for the pc game market.
I posted some links over in DX:IW forum that shed some light on reasons why pc games are suffering.

I am buying up older good (i.e. fun) games that were developed when pcgames were king and consoles weren't the craze.

The console game developers are like the borg. Resistance is futile!

Beagle Boy
8th Dec 2003, 18:54
If Thief 3 is as good as Splinter Cell (also a X-box game ) then it's ok. I loved Splinter Cell.

Did everybody play splinter cell, If you like the thief serries then you will really like this game.

johnqpublic
9th Dec 2003, 06:52
I wouldn't mind playing Splinter Cell especially if it has Thiefy elements. Only problem is I wouldn't buy a console system just for a few titles.

PC games are so much more in depth due to RAM/HDD/graphics/etc. -at least they used to be.
I typically play RTS, RPG and FPS games with the oddball genre cast in. Those types of games are either too short/linear/narrow on console to captivate my attention for long. It's not the game devs faults -consoles have static hardware and no modifying/patching/extra add-ons to allow for longer product life.

Although I think that kicking back on a sofa with some tasty suds and playing some console games is nice lighthearted entertainment. Pyooter games are like chess whereas console games are like checkers for me.

Actually, I'm mostly anticipating Call of Cthulhu, Vampire Bloodlines, Thief3, Sims2, HalfLife2, and Doom3 in that order.

stele
9th Dec 2003, 21:13
My main concern is going to be map size. Remember how freaking HUGE the maps in Thief 1 and 2 are?

I am convinced the tiny maps in DE:IW are a result of console downsizing, and my stomach quivers to think they will do the same thing to our beloved Thief 3.

Face it, the Thief interface was always much simpler than DE, and it was fine that way. What made it was the level of immersion, the controls (LEANING!!), the sounds, and of course the wonderful design and IMMENSITY of those maps. Thief will be harder to screw up by doing a console version, but it can still be royally screwed up! Bring us a PC-specific version PLEASE!

johnqpublic
10th Dec 2003, 01:31
Portentous reading here (http://draginol.joeuser.com/index.asp?AID=1644).

I typically try to avoid being overly reactionary yet the indicators are more than trifling. I've returned 3 newly released pc games over the past couple months due to their mediocrity and console biased features/gameplay.

Perhaps there is a viable solution such as customized downloadable content which cuts out the distribution/publisher moneymen.

I believe the number of pc game boxes on the shelves will dwindle until they are like the Macintosh section of a computer warehouse.

Perhaps pc devs can create an independent body like G.O.D. devoted solely to pc titles offered only through their community portal to devoted hardcore pc gamers.
This way their resources (money/talent/business) are pooled and centralized under a common governing body hopefully maintained by a pc concerned panel. This would allow for survival & continued revenue/life for the devs/producers/gamers/etc.. Perhaps even a subscription based pc gamer community could help keep these hard-working folks & the pc game industry alive with healthy titles that will never have that 'ported' issue.

IMHO I believe that the current model of producing games for both consoles/nextgen & pc is an ineffective use of resources as they are 2 different creatures and to juggle both successfully at the bank and via. day-to-day operations must be a migraine.

Back to focusing on either console or pc. Two very different camps here logistically. Rare can they live together harmoniously.

A fickle pickle indeed.

More info. over at GameMarketwatch (http://www.gamemarketwatch.com/).

CJtheRed
10th Dec 2003, 03:19
Originally posted by stele
My main concern is going to be map size. Remember how freaking HUGE the maps in Thief 1 and 2 are?

I am convinced the tiny maps in DE:IW are a result of console downsizing, and my stomach quivers to think they will do the same thing to our beloved Thief 3.

Face it, the Thief interface was always much simpler than DE, and it was fine that way. What made it was the level of immersion, the controls (LEANING!!), the sounds, and of course the wonderful design and IMMENSITY of those maps. Thief will be harder to screw up by doing a console version, but it can still be royally screwed up! Bring us a PC-specific version PLEASE!

Right on, Stele; these are exactly the same issues I'm worried about. Spector was pretty upfront in his interviews about DE:IW that the maps were smaller because of the RAM limitations of the X-Box. Having played DE:IW all the way through, I must say that the smaller, more densely-populated maps in that game would be radically different from the sprawling, eerily-empty levels from Thief/T2. Not knowing which corner a Hammer might be around was a *big* part of the fun that will be lost if Thief III has as many people per square foot as DE:IW does.

And ya gotta have leaning in a stealth game. Ya GOTTA. Please, ISA, pretty please let me lean around corners? I missed it in DE:IW, but it's really a much bigger deal for Thief, where it's all about stealth. I'm begging you....

gcayto
11th Dec 2003, 17:01
Coming from PC gaming and moving towards console for ease of use... I loved the fact that Deus Ex: Invisible war and Theif III were coming to the Xbox... But, having played Deus Ex on the PC, I was mildly shocked with the direction the new game took. At first I thought it was only concessions made on the console for the console's limitations... but, then a friend purchased the PC version and discovered it was identical in every way (big text, small inventory, load times, small levels,etc.).

I was happy with the console version, but saddened with the direction it indicated for Deus Ex and now possibly Thief.

I had already witnessed Knights of the Old Republic and Pirates of the Caribbean go through the exact same situation.

As a console gamer, I'm happy that the console versions are coming out. As an old time PC gamer, I'm saddened that the PC versions are being compromised in the process.

- if Thief III comes out, I really hope that they stick with the old Looking Glass formula of large levels. If they do what they did to Deus Ex: IW, it will be a sad day indeed, given the amount of feedback they got in their forums.

Beagle Boy
12th Dec 2003, 22:40
I dont think they could do maps as large as Thief 2 even if it was PC only because the load times will be very long. Postal 2 maps were not half as big as Thief 2 but the load times were really long. If you want large maps then the graphics will not be that good like GTA 3, Jedi Knight 2.

Of course if it is PC only the maps can be made much bigger than X-Box / PC.

Edit: Postal 2 is also built on the unreal 2 engine.

Peter_Smith
13th Dec 2003, 07:02
Welcome to the forum, all you Junior members.:) There are some excellent and thoughtful posts in this thread. I found the "portentous reading" article linked by johnqpublic to be Insightful. I hope someone in position to make decisions for Thief 3 is reading these threads and that we can get some of what we want in the PC version, even if it delays the release a little.

If the speculation gets too nerve wracking, pull up a chair, play the old games, and discuss them here. :)

RuleAR
14th Dec 2003, 02:21
Originally posted by gcayto
Coming from PC gaming and moving towards console for ease of use... I loved the fact that Deus Ex: Invisible war and Theif III were coming to the Xbox... But, having played Deus Ex on the PC, I was mildly shocked with the direction the new game took. At first I thought it was only concessions made on the console for the console's limitations... but, then a friend purchased the PC version and discovered it was identical in every way (big text, small inventory, load times, small levels,etc.).

I was happy with the console version, but saddened with the direction it indicated for Deus Ex and now possibly Thief.

I had already witnessed Knights of the Old Republic and Pirates of the Caribbean go through the exact same situation.

As a console gamer, I'm happy that the console versions are coming out. As an old time PC gamer, I'm saddened that the PC versions are being compromised in the process.

- if Thief III comes out, I really hope that they stick with the old Looking Glass formula of large levels. If they do what they did to Deus Ex: IW, it will be a sad day indeed, given the amount of feedback they got in their forums.

Knights Of The Old Republic(KOTOR from now on) is different on pc as it is on X Box. The PC version has exclusive items that the X BoX version doesn't have. Other things are modified as well like the inventory I believe. The devs waited a few weeks I think before they shipped the PC version of KOTOR.

Kerghan
21st Dec 2003, 00:54
Originally posted by RuleAR
The devs waited a few weeks I think before they shipped the PC version of KOTOR.
Yes they did and people were mostly happy with it. This is not the case with DX:IW. I would be happy to wait half a year even, as long as Thief 3 is optomized for the PC when it is released.

Orumph
1st Jan 2004, 19:34
I would rather wait for a well done stable playable game out of the box, than pay for a crap game that needs a patch to be even remotely playable and still is not stable (ie. DX:IW).

BUT,,,,,,

I have money that says Eidos pulls the same BS with Thief3 cause they now know they can and people will still buy it and defend them for doing so.

The Trend will continue.

Quillan
5th Jan 2004, 01:52
I have to ask, how many of you have played Halo on the PC? It took them a couple years to get it out on the PC, but I really enjoyed it. They got the loading thing dead on, as far as I am concerned. It only takes a second or two on the PC to load the next section, so all you get is a small stutter when you hit a load point. It's a hell of a lot better than all those loading screens you saw in IW. I could live with small levels if they used that format.

Optik45
5th Jan 2004, 02:22
I dont know bout you guys but I would sacrifice the pretty graphics for larger levels. When Thief II came out it was behind its time graphically speaking. But that Did not bother me one bit. I was just glad to see it was well done. I am afraid of Thief IIIs outcome but lets hope for the best. With so many people from the Thief team that migrated over to IS I'm hoping they will feel the same way. And if Thief III is a letdown, Im going to Perfect Ghost my way into their office and steal Warren Spector's prized Septer.

Orumph
5th Jan 2004, 03:21
Quillan, yes, that is true. I could live with that too.
Halo was done WAY better than DX:IW. It had options for everything just about, so you could get it to run on low end graphics cards. AND IT STILL LOOKED AWESOME.
Halo was a lot more fun.

Yes, that's right, I said it. A console ported game was fun on PC.
Imagine that.

But the Single Player also could have been done a lot better. I have my petty gripes about it too. I won't give details.

I think they really need to stop worrying so much about graphics and work more on AI for FPS games.

Basicly, NPC's should duck for cover when you have a bead on them and chase you when you don't. They shouldn't act scripted. They should learn (to an extent) from thier mistakes individualy.
Like, you have one pinned down and you can't really see him. You stop firing and he peaks around the corner where you take a pot shot at him and he ducks back. then he could snap shoot at you. (for those that don't know, that's where you pop up or around a corner, take a shot and duck and not watch where the bullet goes but try to hit the target where you think he is) cause he would sorta know where you were and if you don't move or duck yourself, he'ld have a good chance of nailing you in the arm or shoulder, damaging that arm slightly till you can get to a med kit.

If he can't nail you down that way, then he would try to sneak away and catch you off gaurd by flanking you. Just like you would do in that same situation. Kinda like hide and seek and kill.
Or he would keep you occupied till back up arrives from off in the distance, spawned by the game to help a buddy in trouble.

In some spots CoD's NPC's duck for cover and snap shoot. But they are rather predictable and don't move from there spot and are slow.

AI needs a lot of revamping in all games. it's just not at the level it should be these days. And they need to stick with Huge Levels, if they can't do large levels. Don't do them, or put a warning on the game that the levels are friggin tiny.

That's what they need to concentrate on and let graphics be where they are for now. The graphics today are pretty awesome as it is.

As an example, Turok 2 is about the first game I remember of enemies ducking for cover and taking snap shots.

And I'm not talking about making them Gods or anything. Just more realistic in how they react and play through situations.

IGI 1 was a great stealthy game. Yes, it has it's bad points too. But it was cool for what it was. IGI2 was harder. If you made a sound or alerted one gaurd, you practicly alerted the entire camp. And some of them would stay on alert for a long time searching for you everywhere. IGI was linear in game play, but you had in a lot of cases HUGE areas. IGI 1 you could walk for days in a straight line almost. I thought this was great. But there again, no enemy spawning, or calling for troop back ups made it dull after a while. But it's a game I will go back to at a later date cause it was a good stealth type game. IGI2 is good, harder to sneak past gaurds, has some graphical glitches, but not many and it runs like a dream, never crashed.

There are several games that I have played recently that if they rolled all the AI aspects of them all into one. Man the game would be incredible.

Also, IGI1&2 have basicly the same type stealthyness of DX with numerous ways to take out the enemy. You can try taking out a patrol 1 by 1 close up and silent, or snipe them from a distant high point. or sneak around them altogether. For what it is, IGI is an awesome game, well worth the money. The only thing I will say bad at this point is there wasn't (that I can remeber right now) a whole lot you could use to distract gaurds individualy. If you throw a gernade or something really loud, you alert almost the entire camp.

http://www.igi2-game.com/ for some info or google for Codemasters website.

I'm not spamming, just trying to give the Eidos/IS devs some inspiration and show them what a real Stealth FPS is all about, since it apears they have forgotten.

Again, not saying IGI1&2 are perfect games, but they are, oh, I don't know, about a thousand times better than DX:IW when it comes to TRUE stealthy game play. No, it's not Deus Ex 1 either. But I would rate it as very close in game play aspect, really close.
********
Optik, I know what you are talking about. The thing that I know is going to be bad is Sword play. 1&2 were great for sword play, first of it's kind that I know of. Unless that Stone game had any, I didn't play that any. It's been a long time, memory is rusty.

I've rambled on enough in this post.

Optik45
5th Jan 2004, 04:57
I think Halo was done well for PC (well for a ported game). It took a long time to release it to PC and that may have made the difference. Thief III's sword play is topic I havent heard much discussion on. Of course its not going to be sword play, more like Sword on Dagger play. Even though Thief was not a confrontational game I still enjoyed to see how many guards I could take on before I died, so hopefully they make it interesting

Orumph
5th Jan 2004, 15:56
You can't have a thief title without the sword play (or dagger play)
It just won't be thief without it, period.

Yes yes, I know all the little teeny bopper X-boxers will say how great it is even without the sword play. But the real fans know better. It wasn't a major part of the game. But if you were out of everything, you always had your trusty sword, and the play was done really good.

bairdman
8th Jan 2004, 13:34
Originally posted by Baroque
I read it and the only conclusion i can make out of it :

the game loses its chemistry since it leaves out too much the natural elements but fills in the proposed ones

So Warren S. is mainly defending/explaining his decisions, but the
prob is he should just not have taken those decisions.

I agree. It almost sounds like he's trying to cover/save his arse!