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View Full Version : [SPOILER] raziel and hilden



folkart2000
4th Dec 2003, 13:58
Did anyone notice when raziel was fighting turel, that when raziel defeats him, the spirit of turel(a light blue light) goes into raziel. and then a green light goes into raziel. Hence the hilden spirit goes into raziel. After that happens from time-to-time, when raziel gets really mad(when he's fighting kain) his eyes turn from being blue to green. If this is the case, when raziel's spirit went into kains sword, so did the hilden spirit. Something to think about.

Umah Bloodomen
4th Dec 2003, 14:26
The sword is not possessed by the Hylden if that's what you're getting at. If you remember correctly, by reaving the soul of Ariel, Raziel essentially purified himself and the wraith blade. This ultimately allowed for both Moebius and Kain to be purified and to see The Elder God for what he truly was.

folkart2000
5th Dec 2003, 03:48
but did you see the green light go into raziel? and if Raziel went into kains reaver then a part of the hylden must be in the reaver .......look at raziels' eyes

folkart2000
5th Dec 2003, 04:04
i'm not saying that raziel even knows of his possesion. but un-knowingly he is possessed with a hyldan spirit. and then the spirit is then passed onto the reaver.... .....remember the green eyes

f5lesnar
5th Dec 2003, 05:42
Uh Umah just told you that Raziel was cleasned by Ariel and the Spirit Reaver. That means 100% purification, 100%. I don't mean any offense but what part of that did you not understand?

Secret of God
7th Dec 2003, 01:15
As far as the green stuff in Avernus Cathedral is concerned(i.e. The only time you ever see it.), he is under the influence of the Hylden. Raziel is far too strong to be possessed by a Hylden, but he is not beyond being influenced. The Hylden were influencing his emotions in Avernus, specifically anger, in order to make sure that he did what needed to be done(destroying the Scion of Balance). Beyond that, the Spirit Reaver completely purified both Raziel and the Wraithblade when it was obtained.

Morcilla
7th Dec 2003, 02:26
It's not that he is under the influence of the Hylden, he IS A HYLDEN. His soul is free from the wheel and he rejects it. His method of entering Nosgoth's material realm is the same as theirs. He is one of them, at least to some degree. And that part of his nature simply came alive during his battle with Kain, as he accepted that he was the Hylden savior. Regardless of if he was also the Vampire savior and Reaver bearer.

So if you want to think that there is a Hylden in the Reaver, fine. That Hylden is Raziel.

funkysoulbrother
7th Dec 2003, 04:10
Ok, here we go. The Soul Reaver blade was forged for Raziel and Raziel alone, right? right! He has that blade as he says himself in Defiance when he shows it to Janos, its the wraith blade, not the real sword. IF the soul reaver is a VAMPIRIC weapon, (and assuming that the person it is forged for would have a vampiric soul to match the soul reaver itself) and Raziel is NOT a vampire, he is a Hylden, how can the sword be forged for him, and match his soul? And also, the vampires savior depicted in all those pictures in the reaver forges in Defiance is blue wielding the soul reaver (resembling Raziel) and the adversary which could be mistaken for kain because of his color, is obviously a hylden, look at his feet and his back. So how can Kain and Raziel really be destined to fight each other to the death, and even though they tried to, they cannot seem to kill each other. Why did Kain live when his heart was ripped out of him?

Thats all for now, please someone shed light on this if you have answers it will eat me alive if they dont make another game to answer these

f5lesnar
7th Dec 2003, 04:25
Raziel was not a Hylden, he was there savior, but not a true Hylden. He was a human, then vamp., then devourer of souls. Never a Hylden by appearence. But he could have been the savior of the vampires as well due to his free will.

DestinyOfKain
7th Dec 2003, 04:58
:eek: :eek: ouch :eek: :eek: , I never want to hear such an assumption again. This wasn't even a theory, it was a blind statement. Umah said it right. And besides, Raziel said it himself:
RAZIEL:Kain was gone. The madness of this place had somehow fueled my rage and as it subsided ,I felt no elation, no sense of victory. Only a calm certainty that we had once again walked blindly into our enemies' trap. I couldn't be sure whether Kain had truly intended to destroy me, and now it appeared, I would never know.

it subsided, remember?

And besides, if that spirit remained within him it significantly dimished (if it was still within him) when Raziel recieved purification through the purification of his symbiotic weapon, the soul reaver.

Another thing, Raziel is not a Hylden...just because he has glowing eyes as well as a sword appearing to be on fire, it doesn't mean he is the hylden champion of the murals. If you saw, niether of them wins, and it didn't matter which side either person assumed they were as long as the outcome is the same.

either way, Raziel is a redeemer and a destroyer...if he was a Hylden, don't you think he wouldn't aim for the common good of Nosgoth, but instead aim for the liberating of the Hylden? Everything he did was done for the perseverance of Nosgoth as well as the rebirth and second coming of the Vampire Race in a purified, thriving Nosgoth. See for yourself or even read script if that quote wasn't substantial enough for you to dispose of your vague and feckless theory.

EDIT: and if you do notice, Raziel said he and Kain walked into their enemies' trap..the enemies being the Elder God ( including his actions through Moebuis) and the Hylden. And for him and Kain to have the same enemy, what makes you think that they aren't aiming for the same goal?

We see that in the end. Also, how do we know if Raziel had initially percieved the mural incorrectly, looking at the creature as a hylden because of its demonic properties. The Hylden were mutated and demonized through the times of banishment, and Raziel was mutated and demonized through the time of his descent and dormant state at the bottom of the abyss( or you can just say his execution in general). The only thing Raziel has in common with the Hylden is the fact he is mutated and demonized, otherwise he is a Vampire (at heart).

funkysoulbrother
7th Dec 2003, 06:39
I was merely stating what i had interpreted from playing the game, or misinterpreted. That is why i was asking for help understanding what happened. you didnt have to get all defensive.

desslok
7th Dec 2003, 06:59
prediction in the end the hylden and vampiric races are one and the elder god some how caused a rift between the two factions then set them at each others throats for his benefit,and further kain raziel prince william and janos are all one in the same they just havent realized that yet. who dares question my supream vision this includes you too chris.

The Wrath of Kain
7th Dec 2003, 07:26
Prince William is British Royalty. King William is a Legacy of Kain character. :rolleyes:

As far as the rest of your theory's concerned, nevermind.

Umah Bloodomen
7th Dec 2003, 07:30
Play nice, little vampires. Thanks.

pel026
7th Dec 2003, 08:09
So if the reaver was forged for raz, it means they new that his destiny would be to be trapped in the reaver. That`s why they created the forges, (they only work with the wraith blade not the phyiscal reaver). So Kain was their vampire hero not raz.

desslok
7th Dec 2003, 14:28
who cares about prince william you knew who i meant the point still stands that the hylden and vampires are are strikingly similar in a great many aspects and if one takes a second look at the murals throughout the ENTIRE series it begins to stand out much more clearly and if you notice the destroyer and redeemer have already begun to merge into one. ps havent any of you noticed the distinct similarities between janos and raziel and finally because i dont want to point it all out to you get to the final cut scene in defiuance there is something there which will abundantly clarify my point.

DestinyOfKain
7th Dec 2003, 20:33
Originally posted by funkysoulbrother
I was merely stating what i had interpreted from playing the game, or misinterpreted. That is why i was asking for help understanding what happened. you didnt have to get all defensive.

:(sorry bro:(, I didn't mean to sound like I was getting defensive... I guess that's what it seems like when I throw all that information as well as big words...lol.

oh yea, if I was going all offensive\defensive\aggressive, I guess I should've ended it with a Vae Victis!:D

just to say again, sorry if you got that vibe from me.

folkart2000
8th Dec 2003, 13:05
I agree with Secret of God. Sounds like that makes the most sense to me.


Originally posted by Secret of God
As far as the green stuff in Avernus Cathedral is concerned(i.e. The only time you ever see it.), he is under the influence of the Hylden. Raziel is far too strong to be possessed by a Hylden, but he is not beyond being influenced. The Hylden were influencing his emotions in Avernus, specifically anger, in order to make sure that he did what needed to be done(destroying the Scion of Balance). Beyond that, the Spirit Reaver completely purified both Raziel and the Wraithblade when it was obtained.

funkysoulbrother
8th Dec 2003, 19:34
its all good dude, no hard feelins. But hey does anyone know why...

Kain still lived when the heart of darkness was ripped out of him? I mean he asks the question, but doesnt answer it. Also, everyone is stating the Raz is NOT a hylden pretty much, but then why did the Elder God say "It is to the Hylden race that you belong"? And when he finds Kain he says something like "Then you know what i am" and kain says "I believe i do"? i dont know maybe i heard it wrong...

DestinyOfKain
8th Dec 2003, 21:34
I take the Elder God to be like Satan...so wise yet to decietful, always finding ways to misdirect those bound for great things...just think of this....he's been eternally constipated and thus eternally full of...........feces.

Secret of God
8th Dec 2003, 23:12
Originally posted by funkysoulbrother
its all good dude, no hard feelins. But hey does anyone know why...

Kain still lived when the heart of darkness was ripped out of him? I mean he asks the question, but doesnt answer it. Also, everyone is stating the Raz is NOT a hylden pretty much, but then why did the Elder God say "It is to the Hylden race that you belong"? And when he finds Kain he says something like "Then you know what i am" and kain says "I believe i do"? i dont know maybe i heard it wrong...

Kain was ressurected due to his nature as the Scion of Balance. It may not be the best explenation, but Amy said it herself. Besides, Kain's ressurection makes no more sense than the ressurections of various other Messiah's(Jesus, anyone?), and it doesn't really have to. And Raziel is not a Hylden. He has the power to be whatever he wishes. And just because someone says something doesn't automatically define who a person is. In regards to Squiddy: He has lied and decieved Raziel PLENTY of times. You should not believe everything he says. Raziel is the Hylden Champion. He is their unwitting champion, decieved at every turn into doing exactly what they prophecied him to do. Think of it in these terms: Just because Raziel is their Champion doesn't automatically make him a Hylden, himself. Likewise, I could be the leader of a Gay Rights parade and not be gay, myself. Does that make sense?

On a similar note, it should be noted that Raziel possesses many of the prominent features of BOTH races(Vampires and Hylden). Vampires: Blue skin, cloven hands, fangs. Hylden: Smaller "wings", flaming sword and eyes, and a more 'demonic' appearance. Not to metnion that his wings were tan when he first recieved them. And then he possesses his own unique traits: Devouring souls. And having Free Will, thus allowing him to be whatever he wishes.

DestinyOfKain
9th Dec 2003, 01:15
don't the Hylden have free will too...considering that they rejected the Wheel of Fate and its rules

Secret of God
9th Dec 2003, 01:27
Originally posted by DestinyOfKain
don't the Hylden have free will too...considering that they rejected the Wheel of Fate and its rules

This is why I really hope we find out more about the Hylden from their point of view in the next game.

Free Will isn't the only way to be expelled from the Elder God's wheel. Immortality is the other, primary, way. That was the true point of the Hylden's curse on the Vampires. It is very possible that they were always immortal beings, and they refused to bend to the will of the Vampires and the Wheel because it would mean losing their immortality. Perhaps they quite literally couldn't have anything to do with the Wheel, even if they wanted to, because of their immortality(just like their curse on the Vampires)? Again, these are just educated guesses on my part. lol I REALLY hope we find out more about events from the ancient Hylden race's point of view!

DestinyOfKain
9th Dec 2003, 03:23
the next sequel is going to have a serious twist I cannot wait for. Think about it..look how everything is adding up.

most of us knew what to expect with Raziel's fate, but not that his fate had 2 alternatives...being purified before being imprisoned or just simply being imprisoned..ultimately purifying Kain.

As for the Hylden, I like your theory, they could've been immortal initially. But to be free from the Wheel of Fate, doesn't that include Free Will, to pursue your own destiny, not a set one?

These Hylden could have intitially been peaceful and coexist with the Ancients up until the Elder God surfaced (not literally) and he began to influence either race ( we don't know which one he truly influenced, because his intentions are still very questionable...)

Up until he probably gave them a chance to have a cycle of mortality...life, death and rebirth, repeat. Rather than living through life cycles, the Hylden prefered free will and immortality and a war waged with them, ultimately losing.

We picture them as the evil beings because History is written by the winners....I'd really like to see their side of the story. Think about it....remember the murals in the catacombs of the Avernus Cathedral? The Ancients were depicted as evil flying creatures swooping down on them, forcing the wheel of fate on them.

How do we know if where they've been banned to has actually warped their minds and bodies? Rather...all the time spent there has let them fester and roil in their self loathing as well as abhorrence towards those outside their dimension..and rather they go made on their own, their bodies twisting and warping with their thoughts...I mean, they are powerful with sorcery, so how do we know that's not how?

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The Elder God could just be a Satanic creature who just wants to devour souls...so he seeks ways to create maelstroms and massacres throughout history....Maybe he broke the bonds and binding the Hylden and Ancients once had, all because he is parasitic and cancerous, the cancer of Nosgoth. By utilizing the Wheel of Fate, he basically creates a contract with each living creature, ensuring that he'll get to devour their soul after their parting.

This Elder God is full of Warning Signs...he just doesn't seem right. In SR1..he wanted Raziel to be his angel of death and release the souls of the vampires back into the "wheel of fate" as well as get him to kill the Scion of Balance before he discovers his potential, then in SR2 he tries suppress Raziel from discovering his true purpose as well as strand him so that he can't reach his destiny, and if he was to, to make him fail at achieving his true full out destiny of becoming the purified deity within the Blood Reaver.

I trust this guy as much as I trust not getting a disease from eating feces scattered on the city pavement.....

Morcilla
9th Dec 2003, 06:26
EG can't really be Satanic seeing as there's no Satan in Nosgoth :D

And EG hasn't tried to do anything thus far and failed, aside from perhaps preventing the vampire domination of Nosgoth in the SR1 era. All you have to do is pay attention and see how he guided Raziel from his rebirth and murder of his brethren to when he was duped (through Moebius) into allowing Janos's murder to later tricking Raziel into submitting to the Reaver with the conviniently available body of Moebius. EG is in control. Perhaps now less so with Raziel mostly out of the picture.

Oh yeah, and Raz is a Hylden (at least to some degree). He even fights on their side, not only attempting to murder the Scion of Balance, but then sacrificing his life with the intention of arming someone to kill the Ancients' god.

funkysoulbrother
9th Dec 2003, 23:08
But Kain is looked at as the Vampire hero, and the vampires were the Ancients, so then you're saying that Raziel is arming an Ancient with the power to kill his own god. That is were your theory is messed up.

DestinyOfKain
10th Dec 2003, 00:53
I really really think that the Elder God is Satanic...just look at him..he lies constantly and misguides those meant for great things.......How do you honestly know if there isn't a Satanic embodiment within Nosgoth....without evil there can't possibly be good....

Morcilla.....how can you be sure there isn't a satanic figure in Nosgoth?

As for guiding Raziel....I question that because he lies a lot!

How can we be really sure that the Ancient's God is a god with good intentions? We have barely even touched base with the Elder God, only seeing the ripples in the lake, not the whole lake or what's underneath the surface.

Secret of God
10th Dec 2003, 01:04
Originally posted by funkysoulbrother
But Kain is looked at as the Vampire hero, and the vampires were the Ancients, so then you're saying that Raziel is arming an Ancient with the power to kill his own god. That is were your theory is messed up.

It doesn't matter in the least if Kain is "looked at as the Vampire hero". Kain was not "killing his own god." He did not worship the Elder God. Not at all. That is where YOU are wrong.

kakarot
19th Dec 2003, 07:16
When Kain unsealed the door at the base of the Citadel with the Balance Emblem, he said the chamber had been sealed as if to keep something or someone from getting out. Interesting.