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Bonk
24th Nov 2003, 07:38
I'm sorry for the rant but how could EIDOS turn a great RPG like Deus Ex into just another shooter with no skills and a crappy interface?

I played the demo and it ran like crap on my computer which is

P4 1.7ghz
512mb ram
ATI 9800pro
SB live value

Now this system isnt the best out there but it sure the hell runs game which look even better than Deus Ex 2 like SWG a lot better than this travesty

Also everything looks funky and almost looks a bit fuzzy and when your character talks to a NPC he doesnt look as cool and his mouth is not synched properly with the dialog

HOW COULD YOU DO THIS? WHO DECIDED TO GET RID OF THE SKILLS?

I dont know if I will even buy it now

:(

ABRAXAAS
24th Nov 2003, 07:50
gettin really tired of the same biching and complaing, its all been said....SHUT UP!

Bonk
24th Nov 2003, 07:55
I'm sure you are. This is what happens when you rip the heart and soul out of a great game

I just played the demo and checked out the forum and it looks like my greatest fears came true with this game.

This sequal is like Star Wars Episode 1!!!

I wonder if Lucas has been meeting with Warren and giving him tips on how to ruin a francise. :D

ABRAXAAS
24th Nov 2003, 07:56
Originally posted by Bonk
I'm sure you are. This is what happens when you rip the heart and soul out of a great game

I just played the demo and checked out the forum and it looks like my greatest fears came true with this game.

This sequal is like Star Wars Episode 1!!!

I wonder if Lucas has been meeting with Warren and giving him tips on how to ruin a francise. :D

first off starwars episode 1 was great so your a tard:rolleyes:

NamelessOne
24th Nov 2003, 08:01
Originally posted by ABRAXAAS
first off starwars episode 1 was great so your a tard:rolleyes:

There goes your credibility ;)

And anyway, reading the topic of the thread, what did you expect the thread to be about? If you're sick of it don't read it!

ThorsHamburger
24th Nov 2003, 08:02
I'm sorry for the rant but how could EIDOS turn a great RPG like Deus Ex into just another shooter with no skills and a crappy interface?
___________________________________________________

On behalf of all the great "just shooters" out there, I take offence to you putting DX:IW in the same category as other shooters. DX:IW as it stands is NOT a shooter. Oh it has weapons and you can shoot them, but it's not a shooter. It needs alot of work to be considered to be put in the category with great games like UT, UT2003, NOLF, NOLF2,quake 2 and many others. Please dont insult those games, or try and sour the club by putting DX:IW in that category.

Bonk
24th Nov 2003, 08:05
I dont want to play just another shooter. I want to play a RPG/Shooter hybrid like the first game and if you loved Star Wars Ep1 with Jar Jar you need to get help

They totally changed Deus Ex from the looks of it and its a real shame

I wonder why. :D

NamelessOne
24th Nov 2003, 08:06
Originally posted by Bonk
I dont want to play just another shooter. I want to play a RPG/Shooter hybrid like the first game and if you loved Star Wars Ep1 with Jar Jar you need to get help

They totally changed Deus Ex from the looks of it and its a real shame

I wonder why. :D

We're all wondering what happend :(

IconoclastDX
24th Nov 2003, 08:08
For an FPS, its sure a sad one.

Pooeypants
24th Nov 2003, 08:46
Originally posted by ABRAXAAS
first off starwars episode 1 was great so your a tard:rolleyes:
Well at least I noticed you were being sarcastic...(trying to pull you out of the whole mate ;) )

ABRAXAAS
24th Nov 2003, 09:01
Originally posted by Pooeypants
Well at least I noticed you were being sarcastic...(trying to pull you out of the whole mate ;) )

lol no need i stand by my opinion of starwars episode 1 being good and episode 2 and Matrix reloaded and matrix revolutions and deus ex IW :D oh yeah and Starship troopers was the best movie of all time!( there finaly making a sequal) and i dont beleive in god, i do however beleive in war its a good thing. i would like to use midgetes as slaves, after crossbreeeding them with those hairy mexican people so i can have my own ewoks. I dont like handicaped people, or old people. i like pepsi not coke.....anything im missing here to piss you people off?

Viking2
24th Nov 2003, 09:27
gettin really tired of the same biching and complaing, its all been said....SHUT UP!
So don't read anything. No one is forcing you to. Insulting people isn't the way to go. If I was Bonk, and I was face to face with you, I might have been inclined to break your nose when you said that.

At any rate, your posts, ABRAXAAS, suggest that you're just trying to contradict everybody. Wow, that's so much better than everyone who is flaming the game blindly. Good job, feel proud of yourself. After all, you're contradicting them intelligently, without stooping to their level (I say stooping because you apparently seem to think they're below you, though I should say we're below you, since I too am pessimist about the game), without swearing or calling them idiots or ranting endlessly the same way they do. Good job.

ABRAXAAS
24th Nov 2003, 09:30
Originally posted by Viking2
So don't read anything. No one is forcing you to. Insulting people isn't the way to go. If I was Bonk, and I was face to face with you, I might have been inclined to break your nose when you said that.

At any rate, your posts, ABRAXAAS, suggest that you're just trying to contradict everybody. Wow, that's so much better than everyone who is flaming the game blindly. Good job, feel proud of yourself. After all, you're contradicting them intelligently, without stooping to their level (I say stooping because you apparently seem to think they're below you, though I should say we're below you, since I too am pessimist about the game), without swearing or calling them idiots or ranting endlessly the same way they do. Good job.

why thank you, i do try ;)

Viking2
24th Nov 2003, 09:55
why thank you, i do try
lol
Ok, ok, I call for a ceasefire. How about we all just resolve our difference without any hostility? Is there any hope?
*jumps for cover after grenade is thrown in the battlefield towards him*

ABRAXAAS
24th Nov 2003, 09:58
Originally posted by Viking2
lol
Ok, ok, I call for a ceasefire. How about we all just resolve our difference without any hostility? Is there any hope?
*jumps for cover after grenade is thrown in the battlefield towards him*

cease fire ! NEVER!

*nade is actually a spider bomb, chases him out zappin him in the ass*

El Padrino
24th Nov 2003, 10:07
Bonk,

What vital, significant functionality would an added skill system bring to the role playing aspect of the game that biomods don't? What universal aspects of RPG skill systems are absent from the biomod system that make the difference more than just a cosmetic one, meaning you couldn't just change "biomods" to "skills," and rename a few other things and change a few values and not have essensially the same functionality? What about biomods make it fall short from bringing you an RPG experience different from the experience you'd get playing Call of Duty or Max Payne?

Please someone answer these questions so that maybe some kind of progress can be made in this argument, and we can settle the issue once and for all, and then commence with looking back on the incident and dealing with other, unresloved and frequently brought up ones.

There's no sense in bringing up the same complaints over and over again if a rational discussion doesn't break out and settle it at some point. Ranting is fun (I must admit). Having a reason to stop is better. Remember, we have to build a better board for future members, so they don't have to argue about the same things we did.

Like game sites have a FAQs section, boards should have a Frequently Argued Issues section. A whole section (or stickied thread) for people to refer to before complaining about something. It will contain links to threads where the an argument or complaint on an issue was brought up and resolved. I predict that to be the future of message forums or game sites.

vurt
24th Nov 2003, 10:46
Great post El Padrino, couldn't agree more.

I think the demo is really great and it doesnt feel like anoher FPS at all, I'm sure the full game will be even better.

Viking2
24th Nov 2003, 10:58
If there were biomods AND a skill system, like in Deus Ex, but the biomods were made a little less bad (some of them were just plain stupid) and fewer (instead of like 12, maybe 6 like in the sequel, or 8 at most). That'd be perfect. Adding biomods to replace skills is bad, imo, because the biomods are simply not enough. Six biomods for all the character customization... add this to the game's long list of flaws and you've got a mighty big reason to be pessimistic.

mvrander
24th Nov 2003, 11:26
Some people have been messing with the code of the demo and activating other biomods, instructions are linked on this forum somewhere and those people seem to be getting a lot more out of the demo.

The best parts of deus ex where the character progression, character customisation and freedom to play.

All of these are present in dx2, however it is not possible to access them in the demo and as a result the demo may prove to do more harm than good.

I personally don't mind the lack of a skill system. The character is meant to be skilled as it is and 6 biomod slots with varying levels of upgrade for those slots combined weapon selection and choice of playstyle mean yoiu can.

If you can't roll play the game with those tools available to you and feel you need some skills system in place to hamper you in certain areas then that's your perogative but I don;t think it effects me and my playstyle.

Yes the inventory has been simplified but you can still stack 23 chocolate bars if you feel the need to, you cannot carry all the weapons and equipment, you will run out of space. If you feel you need a 20 x 15 grid of spaces in a backpack for a game to qualify as an RPG then once again I feel you are not getting the most out of a range of fantastic games out there.

I do think ammo should have been kept weapon specific however the fact that it is universal does add a tactical choice that people seem to be missing. If you want to use an smg or a shotgun you are going to potetnially waste a lot of ammo, including the ammo for your pistol. You need can't go round blasting with a gep gun or assault rife happy in the knowledge that you have your pistol as a back up. So the ammo isn't all doom and gloom.

Basically I feel this demo is not a good showcase for the best features of the game and judging the game on it would be rash. I know for a fact I disliked dx on liberty island, I felt it was paced badly, had a clunky interface and the combat and AI seemed poor but after sticking with the game to quality shone through and I became hooked.

I think there may have been a few bad choices in the development of dx2, the unreal2 engine is a resource hungry beast that has been surpassed by many other engines in development but having said that as dx2 went into dev there were precious few alternatives. But all in all I'd really advise people to wait and give the game a chance to pan out. One small level which is not fully featured doesn't show what I feel the full game will contain.

El Padrino
24th Nov 2003, 11:48
Originally posted by Viking2
If there were biomods AND a skill system, like in Deus Ex, but the biomods were made a little less bad (some of them were just plain stupid) and fewer (instead of like 12, maybe 6 like in the sequel, or 8 at most). That'd be perfect. Adding biomods to replace skills is bad, imo, because the biomods are simply not enough. Six biomods for all the character customization... add this to the game's long list of flaws and you've got a mighty big reason to be pessimistic.

Ok then. You disagree with me and a few other people, and think a skill system on top of the biomod system would add to the RPG gameplay experience and still make sense. Correct? If so, great.

Now if you answer the questions I asked, we'll know why it is you think biomods aren't enough, which is a lot better and more to work with than simply knowing that you don't think biomods are enough.

Wolfmage
24th Nov 2003, 12:07
Originally posted by mvrander
Yes the inventory has been simplified but you can still stack 23 chocolate bars if you feel the need to, you cannot carry all the weapons and equipment, you will run out of space. If you feel you need a 20 x 15 grid of spaces in a backpack for a game to qualify as an RPG then once again I feel you are not getting the most out of a range of fantastic games out there.

The point of that was to simulate a back-pack. Now instead of playing tetris which at least represented 'packing skills' and the varying weight / size of things, now you can carry twelve rocket lauchers or twelve different nicknacks which is silly. It is not a better alternative imho, but at least it will play fine and won't affect me enjoying the game. The new system is already fast once you get used to it, and it will only get better with more intuitive keymapping or drag and drop. :)




I do think ammo should have been kept weapon specific however the fact that it is universal does add a tactical choice that people seem to be missing. If you want to use an smg or a shotgun you are going to potetnially waste a lot of ammo, including the ammo for your pistol. You need can't go round blasting with a gep gun or assault rife happy in the knowledge that you have your pistol as a back up. So the ammo isn't all doom and gloom.

They could have used UC vending machines or other dispensers to distribute weapon specific ammo if they really wanted to give the player more freedom with guns - (which I think is stupid anyway as constraints like those encourage more intelligent and experimental play rather than bone-head spamming.)

Personally, I don't think they've ever given a coherent justification for this design choice other than the obvious slack excuse that it is easier to figure out balancing and level design...

It might not be game breaking individually but this simplification for the sake of it attitude to the DX:IW development adds up to a net loss of sophistication imho.
Now we have less tactical combat with no reloading, no leaning, no location damage (atm), no movement accuracy modifiers etc etc... No text login teriminals etc etc... It all builds up. :(



I think there may have been a few bad choices in the development of dx2, the unreal2 engine is a resource hungry beast that has been surpassed by many other engines in development but having said that as dx2 went into dev there were precious few alternatives. But all in all I'd really advise people to wait and give the game a chance to pan out. One small level which is not fully featured doesn't show what I feel the full game will contain.
Yeah I think most of us will still buy it regardless of all the noise that we've been making.

I just wish I could buy the game, lobby for reasonable patch fixes without getting ignored for flaming, AND still strongly convey how unimpressed I am with all the 'big issue' compromises I feel they have made in stripping away all this stuff THEY THOUGHT was superfluous to THEIR IDEA of the DX1 experience. :confused:

FliX
24th Nov 2003, 12:52
Originally posted by NamelessOne
There goes your credibility ;)



LOL

YEA

Random
24th Nov 2003, 13:12
I'd like to know how people can judge character development from a two map demo.

Many of DX1's skills, like hacking and melee combat, have been folded into the biomod system. There were 18 augs in DX1, and you could choose 9. There are 15 biomods in DX:IW, and you can choose 5.

Now, when you consider how many useless augs there were in DX1, the restriction to 5 biomods in the sequel is not a big deal. Did anyone actually use more than 5 augs regularly in DX1? I know I didn't, because many of them weren't useful. But I have used every biomod present in the demo in almost every playthrough, which indicates that DX:IW's system is much more integrated with the gameplay.

The bottom line is, anyone trying to say DX:IW doesn't have RPG elements is seriously getting ahead of themselves. Just look at the DX1 demo: there was hardly any character progression at all, because there wasn't time for it. It's the same with DX:IW.

El Padrino
24th Nov 2003, 13:16
Originally posted by Random
I'd like to know how people can judge character development from a two map demo.

I think it's more of a potential for technical character development issue rather than an overall character development issue for some people. The demo only had two maps, but the one technical character development feature, biomods, was all there.

mvrander
24th Nov 2003, 14:03
I'd have to agree completely with random.

I'd also like to point out to those who say the fps aspects arn't very good because of the single hit locations that what is usually accepted as the best fps ever, half-life, had only one hit location for nearly every enemy (if not all of them) in the game.

Baloon
24th Nov 2003, 14:18
To me the exp. system and leaning and all the things they took away ruled. It was interesting, I checked all areas for the points (haha, 100% completed!) and it made me feel I was there. And when you chose which skill to upgrade... WOW! I could choose the rifle and be a silent sniper, I could upgrade the bazooka and go in Rambo style, I could update sneaking and sneak...... That was perfect to me. Yes, perfect! The interface was perfect to me. The inventory style was great cause it made you combine things and decide what to take and what not. The ammo was fantastic - you could use different types for different enemies. Wow. *remembers the good ol times* That was pure genius! And JC's cool voice, shades and coat. (not like BSB Alex) In any case, everyone who think that this game is not dumbed down or that it is still worth of the Deus Ex name are pure ****ing retards. There I said it. DXI made it cause of its blend of FPS, RPG and a phenomenal story. This is ****. A console port for children. BANG BANG, hes dead. Yaaay! Different aproaches? Yes some of that is still present in the demo but its dumbed down. And anyone who says that the majority like this demo - I have been to many forums and I have spoken to many friends - EVERYONE HATES IT! I have spoken!

Le`Sauveur`De`Ces`Dames
24th Nov 2003, 14:55
Originally posted by Baloon
To me the exp. system and leaning and all the things they took away ruled. It was interesting, I checked all areas for the points (haha, 100% completed!) and it made me feel I was there.


well, you will still have to explore everything, if only to find the biomods, upgrades, subquests, etc.






And when you chose which skill to upgrade... WOW! I could choose the rifle and be a silent sniper, I could upgrade the bazooka and go in Rambo style, I could update sneaking and sneak......


well you can still do that. there are biomods for that. that you can upgrade. like skills.





That was perfect to me. Yes, perfect! The interface was perfect to me. The inventory style was great cause it made you combine things and decide what to take and what not. The ammo was fantastic - you could use different types for different enemies.


well, you will still have to use different guns for different ennemies, using different ammount of ammo...





Wow. *remembers the good ol times* That was pure genius! And JC's cool voice, shades and coat. (not like BSB Alex) In any case, everyone who think that this game is not dumbed down or that it is still worth of the Deus Ex name are pure ****ing retards.


wow. that is a big point you are making here. how mature of you.
I guess I will just have to agree with you then.





There I said it. DXI made it cause of its blend of FPS, RPG and a phenomenal story. This is ****. A console port for children. BANG BANG, hes dead. Yaaay! Different aproaches? Yes some of that is still present in the demo but its dumbed down. And anyone who says that the majority like this demo - I have been to many forums and I have spoken to many friends - EVERYONE HATES IT! I have spoken!

well, you are entitled to your opinion. if you read this forum, you will see that not everyone agrees. and, their points being more constructive than yours, I am enclined to trust their more than yours.

NamelessOne
24th Nov 2003, 21:26
Originally posted by Le`Sauveur`De`Ces`Dames

well you can still do that. there are biomods for that. that you can upgrade. like skills.


No there aren't. There are NO biomods for weapon skills. The only skill a biomod replaced it seems, was the hacking. No biomod for electronics, lockingpicking, explosives etc.

So much for the skills system being "folded in" to the biomod system. I was expecting lots of passive biomods that had their own slots, representing skills.

Random
25th Nov 2003, 01:45
Originally posted by NamelessOne
No there aren't. There are NO biomods for weapon skills. The only skill a biomod replaced it seems, was the hacking. No biomod for electronics, lockingpicking, explosives etc.

I think this is good. In DX1, you could get through the game easily with your lockpicking and multitool skills at an untrained level. There was no need to upgrade because there were more than enough lockpicks around. Why would you upgrade your explosive skills? You could do the same things at an untrained level, easily. That skill was totally worthless. They've done away with those useless skills.

The melee skill is one that's been folded into the biomods (strength). Don't forget the 'extra damage' weapon mod, which will do much the same thing as upgrading your weapon skill did in DX1.

NamelessOne
25th Nov 2003, 01:50
Originally posted by Random
The melee skill is one that's been folded into the biomods (strength). Don't forget the 'extra damage' weapon mod, which will do much the same thing as upgrading your weapon skill did in DX1.

There was already the strength/melee aug in DX1, thats just been combined into 1. Its not a replacement for the melee skill.

And weapons mods are another things that annoy me...

I thought there would be unique mods for each weapon. But from the demo, the flamethrower, shotgun, and the pistol all have the same weapon mods!

I thought the pistol having the glass destabilizer was cool,and I was waiting to see what they did with the other weapons. They just gave them more destabilizers.

NamelessOne
25th Nov 2003, 01:54
Originally posted by Random
In DX1, you could get through the game easily with your lockpicking and multitool skills at an untrained level.

I always upgraded electronics and lockpicking. I always wanted to be able to have lockpicks/multitools in hand in case I needed them. I guess we had different styles of gameplay in DX1.

But I won't have that choice in DXIW.:confused:

Random
25th Nov 2003, 02:30
There was already the strength/melee aug in DX1, thats just been combined into 1. Its not a replacement for the melee skill.

The strength aug had nothing to do with your melee skill. It makes sense to combine them as they have.

NamelessOne
25th Nov 2003, 02:35
Originally posted by Random
The strength aug had nothing to do with your melee skill. It makes sense to combine them as they have.

I said strength/melee aug. You chose one or the other. The melee aug added to melee damage. I don't mind them combining them into one biomod. But the fact is, the aug (split into 2, as it was) was already in DX1, so it can't be a replacement for the SKILL.

Don't feel like sticking to the issue today, Random?

Random
25th Nov 2003, 02:51
Ah, I see what you mean now. Still, don't you think having a melee aug and a melee skill was unnecessary overlap? I think we'll just have to disagree on this issue. I think removing skills was a good decision, but I understand if some people don't agree.


Don't feel like sticking to the issue today, Random?
I don't feel like getting hostile, anyway. Just because we don't agree doesn't mean we can't discuss things in a friendly manner.

NamelessOne
25th Nov 2003, 04:22
Originally posted by Random
I don't feel like getting hostile, anyway. Just because we don't agree doesn't mean we can't discuss things in a friendly manner.

Fair enough.


Still, don't you think having a melee aug and a melee skill was unnecessary overlap?

Perhaps, but I would have preferred having a skill and then being able to put a different mod in that slot. Having a limitation of only 5, and then trying to fit skills into them, doesn't work.

Huntress
25th Nov 2003, 04:36
Random..I'd like to take up that comment a bit regarding overlapping certain things. This included other skills/Augs as well. First, a benefit would be that you could use your skills without necessarily having to use up some of your "enery" biopaks to do something but also if you didn't have your skills up enough even with your Aug turned on, you wouldn't be able to perform the action or whatever at an acceptable level. If your melee skill/Aug wasn't at highest level, you couldn't smash turets/cameras,heavier doors, etc. with your Sword as an example. So therefore they were necessary together to make that most effective. So how many Augs did I use? I used all I had at different times depending on the need! I wished I could have used them all (in the same gametime :D ).

Seriously, I'm not sold on so many things being combined with so many other things as they have apparently done to simplify the gameplay (again due to the Xbox's more limited capabilties...and apparently W.S. basically said the same thing...making the game with the console in mind first) words to that effect. I guess the bottom line for me is that I don't want play a completely nanofied mech...but with still enough human frailties (like JC) that I'd go find a candy bar to give to a kid when I didn't have one (and be rewarded for it too!) That was neat :) Small stuff like that which made the game believable for me. Got off the subject a tad but just thought I'd mention it anyway. Ta and Good Hunting!

Random
25th Nov 2003, 12:09
I think you're looking at DX1 and applying Invisible War's changes to the original game. How can any of us say whether combining the melee skill and strength aug will work or not? We've played one small level from the entire game.

mvrander
25th Nov 2003, 12:50
You can apply the strength biomods if you alter the demo config files. It's in other posts in the forum, possibly in the stickies up the top.