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FuriousNoob >:-(
24th Nov 2003, 02:11
Krypt has stated that there are no plans for adding leaning.

Leaning is an unfortunate loss, and it would have been nice to keep it just to have it there. We ended up taking it out because not many people ended up using it, and no one could ever recall making much use of it in DX1 either. I know many of you will disagree no matter what I say, but I personally think that the stealth in the game is fine without leaning (time to get massively flamed). There are plenty of other ways you can look around that corner anyway... like using your spydrone, or dropping a spiderbomb and bot dominating it and piloting it to where you want to look, or turning on your vision biomod and looking through the wall, among other things.

I must be in the minority because I made extensive use of leaning. While I played the demo, there were several times I was frustrated because I couldn't lean, but I kept saying to myself that I could tolerate the other changes as long as they put leaning in the actual game. I'm really dissapointed in this, because gameplay wise, this was my biggest gripe. I realize that in the grand scale it seems miniscule but that is my personal preference. Games like Serious Sam and Halo don't need leaning but for me to enjoy a stealth like game, it is a must. I'm really suprised that they can't put it in.

Jesus, P.I.
24th Nov 2003, 02:30
Use a spy drone? Drop a spider bomb and bot dominate it? Sheesh, what if I just want to peek around the corner? Is it just me, or is Krypt openly acknowledging that the developers intentionally took away player choice?

Personally, sometimes I would rather conserve spider bombs and bio-electric energy and just lean around the corner briefly. According to Ion Storm's stated design philosophy, this should be a valid way of doing things, but here Krypt is showing IS's true colors.

BTW, I too made EXTENSIVE use of leaning in DX1.

StuffGuy
24th Nov 2003, 03:29
I always thought leaning in games was rather retarded. Either the AI was smart and they noticed your big head sticking out, offering a perfect headshot target, and used the oppurtunity.

Or, your head somehow became magicaly invisible while leaning and it destroyed your sense of realism.

Breadman
24th Nov 2003, 03:57
Originally posted by StuffGuy
I always thought leaning in games was rather retarded. Either the AI was smart and they noticed your big head sticking out, offering a perfect headshot target, and used the oppurtunity.

Or, your head somehow became magicaly invisible while leaning and it destroyed your sense of realism.

I'm with this guy... leaning just wasn't important for me either. I also think it'd be more fun to control the bot/spydrone/seethroughwallsthingymagiger...

Jesus, P.I.
24th Nov 2003, 04:21
Originally posted by StuffGuy
I always thought leaning in games was rather retarded. Either the AI was smart and they noticed your big head sticking out, offering a perfect headshot target, and used the oppurtunity.

Or, your head somehow became magicaly invisible while leaning and it destroyed your sense of realism.

Tell me what you think would be more visible: Half of someone's head peaking around the corner, or a spider robot clanking around?

Answer: The robot would be more noticeable, but the half of the person's head would also be quite noticeable. So is it really useful to bring in arguments about realism?

Don't you think the option of leaning should at least be there for those that want to use it? This would add minimal development time, it would make more people happy, and those that don't like to lean would not be forced to. What would be lost other than the time it takes to make a few very simple movement animations and create a couple of key bindings?

And no, realism would not be lost, because it was not really there in the first place

PellaeonSZ
24th Nov 2003, 04:22
I'm more worried about lack of localized damage, no stealth factor, less details, bad graphics, etc etc etc.

Frost Giant
24th Nov 2003, 04:25
In Deus EX 1 my middle name was LEANING. Going aound a corner? Why not lean and take a survey of what you might be getting into bfore rushing around? Yep, my name was JC Leaning Denton. Now I will be called Alex Thermal Vision Biomod Denton. Somehow, the later just doesn't sound as good as the first.:( Ohh well, I guess if they took it out there is nothing I can do to change that, my name is ruined!:mad:

Klown
24th Nov 2003, 04:41
leaning was a very important factor in my dx1 gameing. its not like it was useless. if you stuck your head out for more than a few seconds enemies would indeed notice and cap you in the face. removeing this feature means probably that the ai has been dubbed down so you can run around the corner and run back.. or that they will react the same way as they did in dx1 except now they will run at you guns blazing

AlteredGlyph
24th Nov 2003, 04:46
Originally posted by PellaeonSZ
I'm more worried about lack of localized damage, no stealth factor, less details, bad graphics, etc etc etc.
Hmm... The lack of location-based damge was a large bug in the demo. While you don't take more damage because of headshots(probably because of nano armor incorporated into all your skin,) other people will in the final game. The stealth factor was there, it was just utterly useless becuase you could either kill Sak and her gueards, of pay off the debt, and there was no way to accomplish your objective by seaking into the hangar and opening the bay doors so Sid could sneak into his jet and you could take off. This was due to the lack of the hangar map in the level. The graphics weren't bad, in fact, they were very good, once you set the high detail textures on and a few other tweaks like that. What does less details mean? Less stuff to mess around with? As I noticed, there seemed to be more.
Frankly, I miss leaning, but is it that hard to hop artound a corner for a second, and then hop back?

nimbus
24th Nov 2003, 05:27
...or you could just cloak for a second.

...or just stop being a pansy and kill the guy:)


Joking, JOKING, I love the stealthy way too, and yeah I will miss it a little bit, I'm always about more features. But I don't think it's gonna be game breaking. And it does make those biomods a bit more interesting/ valuable. I'm way more concerned with the limited biomod slot grouping than anything else that's been discussed, as far as limitations to gameplay style go.

dimple
24th Nov 2003, 05:44
Stealth without leaning? Give me a break... That's just lazy ass bs. Ionstorm is obviously trying to cut corners, and it's ruining the game. Sorry, but DX:IW isn't going to be game of the year like the first one was.

Woggy
24th Nov 2003, 05:49
Jesus IonStorm is getting lazy. Just put it in, ok? What will you loose if you put it in? Krypt, your logic is ****ed up.

IconoclastDX
24th Nov 2003, 06:25
That quote from Krypt is very telling of two things.
1 - how out of touch they are getting with there base.
2- How preoccupied and narrowminded they got with thier pet improvments.

If this game is about feedom, options and immersion then why oh why take out out such an option. "Drop a spider bot and dominate it" OMG! Like i want to waist a bot, some BE and a bunch of time just to look around the corner! And what about TACTICAL COMBAT? I used lean contantly to take out approaching enemies. This is so discouraging.

Cybersurfer
24th Nov 2003, 06:31
i AGREE, They should give "US" the user, the choise if we want to use leaning or not

& there's alot more "Choises" they could have put in for the "USER":rolleyes:

J.theYellow
24th Nov 2003, 06:48
Agreed. I leaned around corners a lot.

One thing I -didn't- do was amp my eye powers up to where I could see through walls. Sorry, had better things to buy.

BostonLow
24th Nov 2003, 08:01
Of course leaning is a useful feature. Why else would all other PC FPS developers insist on putting it in?
Unfortunately Ion Storm wants to be fair to the XBox customers. XBox controllers don't have enough buttons to allow for such feature, and if PC version had it, XBox customers would flock to the forums to complain about it.

I understand their decision, but it was extremely stupid of them to try to cater to both PC and console market at the same time.

Psychotext
24th Nov 2003, 14:59
That's rubbish. I have 6 xbox games that have leaning in them. 3 of them released in the past six months. Give me a break, have you any idea how many buttons an xbox controller has?!?! Even if you don't want to use a button, both thumbsticks can be clicked to allow a range more movements and controls.

Nutter! (By the way, I'm mainly a pc gamer, but I own an xbox, gamecube & ps2).

Le`Sauveur`De`Ces`Dames
24th Nov 2003, 15:05
well, although I usually played DX1 by sneaking around, and killing as few as possible, I must say I never used leaning. so I guess I won't miss it that much

if you are fast enough, the guard on the other side doesn't see you, and after that, it's all about timing your moves, once you know how they move.

(like in real life, by the way. leaning around corners is not exactly a lot more discrete than crouching and tiptoeing around it

BostonLow
24th Nov 2003, 15:30
Originally posted by Psychotext
That's rubbish. I have 6 xbox games that have leaning in them. 3 of them released in the past six months. Give me a break, have you any idea how many buttons an xbox controller has?!?! Even if you don't want to use a button, both thumbsticks can be clicked to allow a range more movements and controls.


Sure, but Deus Ex is not a typical FPS. Its level of interactivity requires more buttons than XBox controller has so they had to cut some ofthe functionality out. There's no reason why they wouldn't include leaning otherwise.

Psychotext
24th Nov 2003, 15:36
Originally posted by BostonLow
Sure, but Deus Ex is not a typical FPS. Its level of interactivity requires more buttons than XBox controller has so they had to cut some ofthe functionality out. There's no reason why they wouldn't include leaning otherwise. That one is highly debatable. There are games with interfaces of comparable complexity that have managed it. Not least some of the japanese mech games (Which also have to deal with torso rotation among other things). Still, I wont get into it as it's a long and drawn out argument.

FuriousNoob >:-(
24th Nov 2003, 22:53
I really the devs pull a 180 on this and put leaning in. It wouldn't hurt anyone, but would make some of us happier :)

Big Ragu
24th Nov 2003, 23:09
It isn't so much that they took out leaning, but it is how the devs, or at least Krypt, don't seem to care what we think. He's just like "Welll we like it and we are the only ones that matter, not the people who actually buy the game." I would be much happier if the dev were a little more understanding of our complaints, and maybe give some better alternatives to our problems (use a bot, take it over, pilot to the spot, look for guard, etc). Leaning isn't a big thing, but it is important to the players who used it all the time. If the devs wanted to keep it, they should have. I know I wish they did.

9of9
24th Nov 2003, 23:09
From what I read in the IS forum, there seems to be quite a few references to leaning in the code - it's not in the game, but it's in there somewhere, so it shouldn't be hard for the devs to switch it on or, in the extreme case, for someone to come up with a hack for it.

Psychotext
24th Nov 2003, 23:10
Given that the game is based upon the Unreal engine it shouldn't be hard to do. (Also if you look in the files you will find a ton of references to leanleft & leanright).

Edit - Lol, that was my post over there too.

Huntress
25th Nov 2003, 00:33
Well this is one more issue I take with the new "improved" version! I also used "lean" many many times...like it was an intregal part of my stealth movements. I would briefly lean around corners to check out what was ahead or to time my next move to the next hiding place, make a sneak attack with my prod or whatever, etc. Nope...I don't like this omission either! I guess I won't even consider buying the game now until a patch is made (if they're going to do one and see what changes they would put in to make it more PC/player compatible (interface, mouse use, etc. along with other things that have been discussed). This is extremely disappointing to me as I have really anticipated this game for a long time and now it seems I won't be so anxious to buy it :( Sorry I have to say that too! Ta and Good Hunting!

Koif
25th Nov 2003, 00:39
Its a long way off being an essential feature but imo leaning should be in, wasnt too impressed with it in DX1 but games like raven shield have very well implemented and incredibly useful leaning controls.

tas42
25th Nov 2003, 00:42
i don't remember ever leaning once in the original, so i doubt i'll miss it. it does seem silly to leave it out thought. how hard could it have been to implement?

Zeus
25th Nov 2003, 01:14
there was leaning in dx1?

SK Denton
25th Nov 2003, 01:22
Leaning is an essential feature. PERIOD! It is unconscionable how you can justify removing a simple peek around a corner for a clunky, noisy robot or a mod that sucks away your bioenergy.

This reminds me of that cartoonist who would draw complex contraptions that did simple everyday tasks like crack open an egg.

IS's motto of "play it your way" has now been proven to be complete BS. Their real motto is "play it the way we let you".

I have always said that more choices = good, and if this doesn't prove my point then nothing will.

Psychotext
25th Nov 2003, 01:38
I think it entirely depends on the style of game you play. As a thief style player i would always move from cover to cover, peeking around corners as I went. Of course, if you were the sort of player who carried a rocket launcher everywhere and had your fighting skills maxed then you would have been a lot less likely to care if you ran into an enemy.

Viking2
25th Nov 2003, 01:48
Jesus, there is a balance to everything. "More choices=good" is wrong. Any extreme is bad. At any rate, I do agree with you about how leaning is necessary. It doesn't have to be just for a stealthy player either. I mean, any soldier in a battlefield, or any commando entering a base full of enemies, wouldn't just jump forward in an area he doesn't know about. Naturally, he might try something to see if anyone is on the other side. Normally, unless the enemies know he's there, he would peek and see. For Christ's sake, do you really think Alex would turn on his nanites or spawn robots and control them every time he looked around the corner? That's bull. I just think the devs are ignoring us here on the boards, and giving us the dumbest ways to shut us up, saying basically that they don't give a damn and that they're going to do what they want, because obviously the pc and Deus Ex's (former) fans aren't their concern. I feel offended. :mad:

Huntress
25th Nov 2003, 02:07
Originally posted by Zeus
there was leaning in dx1?

:D...see what I mean about the difference in play styles...he didn't even know it was there! ;)

Yes, you may say stealth play is still there with some of the newly "improved" bio what-nots...but like another guy said...why should I have to waste my energy to use those "other" methods when a simple lean-around is the more "efficient/non-energy using" way??? LOL In fact, I was even looking forward to not only having lean left/right, but forward also as in Thief games!!! Geez, that would have been an improvement to the darn game mechanics! Not leaving it out entirely this time!! Ta and Good Hunting!

PointlesS
25th Nov 2003, 02:33
who cares if the majority of people didn't use leaning in dx1...this is practically the only stealth type game that doesn't implement leaning...just because everyone didn't use it...it shouldn't be taken out...I like the demo and all but seriously that was one of the things that pissed me off...

SK Denton
25th Nov 2003, 03:18
Jesus, there is a balance to everything. "More choices=good" is wrong. Any extreme is bad.

More choices will never, ever be bad. There can't be too many choices. The more choices you have the more replay value and the more gameplay variation and individuality there is. Would you rather buy a music cd with 3 songs or 100 songs? Exactly!

In DX we had a lot of choices:

- Should I search for the code, hack or try to guess at the terminal
- should I use the tranq darts or go for the kill with the regular ones
- which weapon should I take along since my inventory is full or should I try to rearange my inventory to make more space
- etc, etc, etc

More choices = GOOD. PERIOD!