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View Full Version : Trying to clear up the difference between console and PC games, for everyone.



IconoclastDX
23rd Nov 2003, 10:06
There still seems to be a lot of console vs PC emnity in the boards still, and Ive noticed that the arguements werent addressing each other very will. So Ive put together a conscise explaination of why some people think that PC games are usually differnet from console games.

Alright. Now be honest with yourself.

1st - Good and bad games can both be on consoles and PC. Agreed?

2nd - There exists both simple and complex, intellegent and moronic, fun and dull etc, games? Right?

3rd - Which platform do you think has the lowest average player age? This I know. Its consoles, by a couple of years in fact.

4th - Which platform is the major gaming platform (ie. has more players who play more than casually)? Consoles or PCs? Consoles. Still with me?

So, if it was your job to sell a game, and this game was pretty fun but conceptually simple, with basic straight forward gameplay, and a very small learning curve. Which platform would you choose to support it on? A console or PC. If your honest with yourself I think youd say a console, and heres why I think you would.

1- There are simply more gamers playing consloles than PCs, therfore immediate increasing your audience pool.
2- Since this game sports rather simple gameplay, it would make sense to to pick a gaming medium that has the most of your target players, young players.

So you see, devs of console games have two difficulties to deal with.
1st - Since consoles have a younger player pool, making a title more difficult/sophisticated also makes it less accessible to a GREATER portion of their total potential consumer pool than would a PC game.

2nd- Simple, annoying or dumbed-down games seem to find their way to a consoles much more frequently than to a PCs. This is simply because consoles are more likely to sell more copies. Thus, developing this simple (dumb-downed) reputaion and consolized "feel" everyone is talking about.

I hope thats clear.

MonkeyLungs
23rd Nov 2003, 10:18
well since deus ex: invisible war is rated mature i think your argument that they are reaching out to a younger audience is seriously lacking.

there are kid games and more mature minded games on both platforms, although i'll concede that more kid games come to consoles (though not necessarily to xbox it seems). that said deus ex is not targeting children for sales. the game is rated mature for blood and gore. will kids pay it? they play gta so i'm sure they will. will adults play it also? yes indeed, i know i will.

dimple
23rd Nov 2003, 10:26
You don't make a "thinking" game and expect the average gamer to play it. A lot of my friends did not like the original Deus Ex. Why? Because it wasn't linear, and they could not just blow things up mindlessly. Simple people play simple games. You don't cater to the simple people with a game like DX:IW. I have the feeling that DX:IW is no longer what the developers want it to be, but rather they're taking orders from EIDOS about how the game has to be made.

MonkeyLungs
23rd Nov 2003, 10:42
Originally posted by IconoclastDX
There still seems to be a lot of console vs PC emnity in the boards still, and Ive noticed that the arguements werent addressing each other very will. So Ive put together a conscise explaination of why some people think that PC games are usually differnet from console games.

Alright. Now be honest with yourself.

1st - Good and bad games can both be on consoles and PC. Agreed?

of course, this is quite obvious ...


2nd - There exists both simple and complex, intellegent and moronic, fun and dull etc, games? Right?

yes


3rd - Which platform do you think has the lowest average player age? This I know. Its consoles, by a couple of years in fact.

yes, except that on all platforms we see a general trend of the average gamer age increasing. games aren't just for kids anymore.


4th - Which platform is the major gaming platform (ie. has more players who play more than casually)? Consoles or PCs? Consoles. Still with me?

right here you are deviating from maintaining a valid arguemtn .. you need to compare how many xbox owners there are to pc owners who play games to get a feel for the demographics issues you are trying to address, given that invisible war is being released only for xbox and pc



So, if it was your job to sell a game, and this game was pretty fun but conceptually simple, with basic straight forward gameplay, and a very small learning curve. Which platform would you choose to support it on? A console or PC. If your honest with yourself I think youd say a console, and heres why I think you would.

conceptually simple? compared to what? do you really think the concept of deus ex invisible war more simple than the concept of deus ex? expand on this because right now you just seem to be taking pot shots without backing up your point.

they have been makign this game for console and for pc in tandem since the beginning i think they are going to support it on both platforms.



1- There are simply more gamers playing consloles than PCs, therfore immediate increasing your audience pool.

yes they increase the potential market for their game by releasing on two platforms, xbxo and pc. seems to make A WHOLE LOT OF SENSE TO DO AS WELL CONSIDERING THE SIMILARITIES IN DEVELOPMENT BETWEEN THE TWO PLATFORMS



2- Since this game sports rather simple gameplay, it would make sense to to pick a gaming medium that has the most of your target players, young players.

again you are taking potshots without backing up your vitriol. what is so simple about the gameplay? also the target audience for this game is the same on both platforms i can gaurantee the demographics for the potential playerbase are almost identical in both markets as well ...



So you see, devs of console games have two difficulties to deal with.

they probably have a lot mroe difficulties to deal with than just 2 but i'm still curious here einstein ...



1st - Since consoles have a younger player pool, making a title more difficult/sophisticated also makes it less accessible to a GREATER portion of their total potential consumer pool than would a PC game.

you have nothing but conjecture and your own opinion to back this statement up. once again, i tell you the game is rated mature and the target audience is the same for both platforms.... ----> gamers that enjoy first person shooters, gamers that enjoy story driven first person shooters and trying to pull in some crossover customers from the rpg crowd. i don't think there is some magical difference in target audience merely because of platform, it makes no logical sense.



2nd- Simple, annoying or dumbed-down games seem to find their way to a consoles much more frequently than to a PCs. This is simply because consoles are more likely to sell more copies. Thus, developing this simple (dumb-downed) reputaion and consolized "feel" everyone is talking about.

there's a whole mess of simple and dumbed down and dumb ass titles on both xbox and pc. it has very very little to do with platform and more to do with the fact that most games that are released for either platform suck. most game developers do not take the time to make in depth games as it is costly and difficult.



I hope thats clear.

not really, it just seems like a bunch of opinionated drivel to me ...

do you like cake or pie? i like cake but only with soda.

MonkeyLungs
23rd Nov 2003, 10:53
Originally posted by dimple
You don't make a "thinking" game and expect the average gamer to play it. A lot of my friends did not like the original Deus Ex. Why? Because it wasn't linear, and they could not just blow things up mindlessly. Simple people play simple games. You don't cater to the simple people with a game like DX:IW. I have the feeling that DX:IW is no longer what the developers want it to be, but rather they're taking orders from EIDOS about how the game has to be made.

i guess i get to take you on as well ...

the original deus ex was quite linear, the story developed from level to level ... there was almost always choice in how to approach a situation, giving the gamer freedom to experiment and do things in their own way, but the core of each map was rather linear.

you could go pretty gung ho in dues ex and kill everything on the map if you wanted.

none of you can say that the full version of this game is simplified in terms of storyline and plot advancement. some of the mechanics are simplified and this bothers some people, fine. sorry you are so damn hung up on leaning, reloading, and having different ammo types. yes those things are gone, and yes that bugs some people, however i don't think it simplifies the game as far as the core of the game is concerned.

as long as we see an intriguing story, with multiple ways to complete objectives we are already playing in the spirit of the original (albeit without leaning, reloading, or varrying ammo types). it also seems that now we have even more opportunites for divergent storyline advancement as there are multiple factions vying for your support and much more tangible ways to choose which factions to follow.

i swear the idiocy of people claiming that the whole concept or the whole game is dumbed down and simplified purely because they can't lean, reload, and use different ammo types is astounding.

Sotos
23rd Nov 2003, 10:56
I do not know about the XBOX VERSION of the game and i do not really care

But after seeing the Demo of the PC VERSION i am dissapointed

The PC VERSION NEEDS WORK!!!!
if the demo is the same with the Pc version then these game will be -not good at all- and will have nothing to do with DX 1

MonkeyLungs
23rd Nov 2003, 11:02
Originally posted by Sotos
I do not know about the XBOX VERSION of the game and i do not really care

But after seeing the Demo of the PC VERSION i am dissapointed

The PC VERSION NEEDS WORK!!!!
if the demo is the same with the Pc version then these game will be -not good at all- and will have nothing to do with DX 1

just because you say so eh? sorry but forgive me if i don't take you seriously even in the slightest unless you can offer some kind of logical validation for your hypothesis ...

oh do you like pie or cake?

i like cake but only with soda.

Sotos
23rd Nov 2003, 11:08
Originally posted by MonkeyLungs
just because you say so eh? sorry but forgive me if i don't take you seriously even in the slightest unless you can offer some kind of logical validation for your hypothesis ...

oh do you like pie or cake?

i like cake but only with soda.

I do not like nothing from the 2 actually....
and
I am not the only one complaining...

LOOK HERE
http://www.videogameslife.com/pages/ARTICLE_PAGE.asp?id=213&art=pvw

Go see to Nvnews.net game forum to see for yourself how many ppl are dissapointed from the DEMO of these game

MonkeyLungs
23rd Nov 2003, 13:57
just because you aren't the only one complaining does not make your argument valid .. you must suppy reasoning as to why you think the game will not be any good if things you want fixed aren't fixed otherwise it's kind of pointless to whine.

it seems like bandwagoning to me.

that's a shame that you don't like cake or pie though :(

dx1fan
23rd Nov 2003, 15:52
I can definately understand why they simplified it,but I don't have to agree with it.You develop a game for 2 platforms at once and leave out alot of nice extra options to save money on development. what do you get...a game that alot of people buy and the hard core fans hate.Why? For the money of course.There have been countless articles written on how competetive and cut throat the games industry is these days.Look at the number of developers that have closed their doors and the number of games cancled.It makes economic sense to develop for 2 platforms and leave out the extras in order to cut costs and get a larger audience for more revenue to help the buisness.This is not the last time we will see multiplatform development of games that are simplified riding on the sucess of previous titles.It makes money,and money keeps the deveopers and publishers afloat.

People will argue that since the game is not up to par with the original that it will miserablly fail.I agree they will lose some sales ,but have you read any of the previews of the full game that are out on the net.Everyone is praising it to high heavens and great reviews DO sell lots of games.

Does anyone remeber how valuable the data cubes were in dx1?You could find lots of very usefull information in them to help you do various things in your quest.Bank account numbers to log into atms without hacking and damaging them or risking getting caught.E-mail logins so you could read the e-mail logs without the time limit when hacking,keycodes to doors to open them and save you a few multitools.Security computer logins that save you from the hacking time limit so you could scope the place with the cameras and reset defense turrets to shoot the baddies.

Now in dx2 there is no security logins,no bank account numbers..and I also suspect(but have no proof)no computers with e-mail logins.Seems to be all replaced by hacking.Now the lowly data cube is reduced to being just another supplier of trivial information.There is one in the restroom with the cats.Its located on the back of the toilet.It says to feed the greasel live cats or microwave dead ones and feed it.This is just one example of how the small things, that some people think are insignificant, really made the game more enjoyable because it added alot to gameplay for most of us.


There were so many options with the various types of ammo also that was definately not trivial.Take for instance the shotgun...you had buckshot for living enemies and slugs for bots.Made it a great dual purpose weapon.This kind of thing made you think more about how you would approach a situation with bots guarding one entrance and guards guarding another.Have alot of slugs and explosives and maybe a gep with a few rockets,but you low on sniper ammo,buckshot and 9mm ammo...go take out the bots...have no rockets,low on slugs but have 30 sniper rounds...take out the living guards from a distance.Have alot of buckshot and little else...go in and take the living guards by storm.Very low on ammo...sneak past all of em and dont fire a shot.The ammo you hade made you think more about how you would approach a situation.Now you got universal ammo,just go in with your favorite gun and blast em any way you chose without a thought given to how you would approach the situation with what type of ammo you have.I'm sure some people love this idea...but I think its oversimplified and took alot out of the game.

There are alot of other example of such things but I have rambled on long enough.
The people who dont notice the loss of the little stuff may have only played dx1 once or twice and approaced it from a more hack and kill your way through the game.Thats fine the game gave you that choice.But I wanted a more complex game,not a simpler one.I can however understand why they made it that way.MONEY TALKS.


BTW I LOVE Cake and Coffee :D

HKRaven
23rd Nov 2003, 16:25
Originally posted by IconoclastDX

So you see, devs of console games have two difficulties to deal with.
1st - Since consoles have a younger player pool, making a title more difficult/sophisticated also makes it less accessible to a GREATER portion of their total potential consumer pool than would a PC game.

2nd- Simple, annoying or dumbed-down games seem to find their way to a consoles much more frequently than to a PCs. This is simply because consoles are more likely to sell more copies. Thus, developing this simple (dumb-downed) reputaion and consolized "feel" everyone is talking about.

I hope thats clear.



Actully there are *A L O T* more "dumbed-down" games for PC's. Mostly becuase there are more games for PC but also becuase they'll release any crap there( The Console companies has "standards" and wont allow a game to be released to a console if it's 2 crappy or the company pays em alot of money ;)). There's a reason the 2 biggest grenes on PC are the 2 "dumbest" ones(RTS and FPS) wich PC players mostly will buy no matter how much they suck and there it's a good steady source of money to make these games.

Devin the Dude
23rd Nov 2003, 16:25
Deus Ex was not a thinking game anyway. Most console games have everything Deus Ex has and that people say is removed except for the freedom.

Dark Of Thought
23rd Nov 2003, 19:44
^^ Above 2 people need inhale a lethal dose of Zyklon B.

IconoclastDX
23rd Nov 2003, 20:04
Ok folks. All of you need to re-read my original post. I am saying nothing, got that, NO-THING about DX:IW. In fact, DX and IS could have never existed and the premise of this discussion would still be just as valid.

From reading your responces, it is obvious than many of you assumed I was reffering to DX:IW. And to be honest, if I was, then you would all be right. But I am not. When I ask the reader to imaging what they would do if they had to sell a game, I literally mean "a" game. NOT DX or DX:IW. All of your objections are based on pointing out that DX:IW is NOT a simple, straight forward, childish, blah blah, game and therefore my conclusions are incorrect. This is completely irrelevant. I am simply stating that:

************
consoles have a different (not better or worse) market demographic than PCs. Thus the game developed to sell on the respective platform will reflect that difference. This difference is what people are refering to when they say a game is consolized.
************

Clear?

Many of you really did have clear rebuttles but were unfortunaely based on an incorrect premise. I appologize for not making it more clear in my first post. Anyway, I am still very interested in whats you guys think.

Also, when i say complex vs simple etc. I am refering to a spectrum. SO more complex is the same as less simple. Therefore they are not mutually exlusive, and trying to tease them apart as such is classic logical fallacy. Just because I say that consoles attracts more simplified games, for example, doesnt mean that PC games are always complex. Ok?

Warbie
23rd Nov 2003, 20:13
'dumbed-down games seem to find their way to a consoles much more frequently than to a PCs' - that statement very far from the truth.

I must have missed the recent complex pc games that you've been playing ........ the ones i've experienced have been average at best (Max Payne 2 anyone :/) - and less complex, innovative, creative and fun as many console games.

Console gamers demand as much from their games as pc gamers do. The fact that the average age is less doesn't hold for me either, and just results in more games targeted at a younger audience appearing on those formats. It doesn't reduce the demand the adult orientated games ........ as there are more adult gamers that have consoles that pcs (by a long, long way)

I do believe the game has been dumbed down tho, but not to cater for younger console owners. Just for a bigger audience in general. Ion Storm are just capitalising on the Deux Ex name - it's all about the $'s

imo the game would be pretty much the same if it was exclusive to the pc, bar a different HUD.

Driver
23rd Nov 2003, 20:24
The reason why the PC has more RTS and FPS games is because of the sensitivity provided by the mouse and keyboard interface.

It has nothing to do with the IQ of PC players.

Not even Halo comes close to the accuracy a mouse can provide. In Halo they made a BIG reticule with guns that had a wider spread to compensate.

More junk comes on the PS2 than any other console or PC is because of the user base.

Btw, Console games are more dumbed down than PC games. If your gonna post get your facts right. Peace.