PDA

View Full Version : A theory...



NamelessOne
22nd Nov 2003, 05:36
I've watched a lot of forums as games or demos of games get released, and I've noticed something.

I believe that you can, generally, tell the quality of a game from the reaction of the forumgoers to it. You see, there will always be some fanboys who defend the game as if its the greatest thing since sliced bread and constantly flame any who think otherwise, and some trolls who hate absolutely everything to do with the game and constantly flame the game. I shall classify these 2, roughly, as "Fanboys" and "Haters", respectively.

But my theory is that you can tell the quality of the game from the proportion of these 2 elements, and how the arguments and flamefests pan out. And from what I've read so far, its not looking good for Ion Storm.

The "Haters" vastly outnumber the "Fanboys", which is a point against Ion Storms game.

Secondly, the "Haters" tend to have many specific points of complaint against DXIW, which is unusual. The norm is a lot of "This game sucks" or "Valve has ruined my life". Another point against Ion Storm.

Thirdly, the defense of the Fanboys have been sorely lacking. Most of the comments coming from them seem to be of the form "It won't affect me/my playstyle, so the problem doesn't exist" or "Graphics don't make a game" or "Shut up you whiny &*&&^! Its great so shut up shut up shut up!!!". Theres also the staple "Its only a demo! You can't judge the game based on a demo." (I never understood this particular argument).

So far, my little analysis seems to be pointing to a bad game. But things can change quite quickly in the world of computer game forums, and usually, the first day holds the strongest criticism, so I'll be watching to see how the situation develops.

Any comments about my little theory?

nacr0mancer
22nd Nov 2003, 05:40
dude get a life :) joking its interesting

Jesus, P.I.
22nd Nov 2003, 05:44
What can I say? In your classification, I would easily fall under the "hater" category, though I really think that the game had potential. There were just some very bad design decisions.

I think that Ion Storm got a little taste of their own stun prod here, and they should thank us "haters" for it. If there is anything that will get them to think a bit more about their decisions, it is a failure.

I believe that Ion Storm did not expect this kind of reaction, and how could they when everybody who played their precious creation gave it glowing compliments? I think that either intentionally or unintentionally Warren and Harvey surrounded themselves with yes-men who would not criticize their game. We gamers, however, have nothing to lose by speaking our mind.

If Ion Storm uses our criticism (which I think on a whole is unusually contructive) to improve, they will benefit.

MDent
22nd Nov 2003, 05:46
I've been trying to think of some other game demos that were released and played/looked terrible only to be improved a lot in the final version of the game. I cant think of any really.

Bio Denton
22nd Nov 2003, 06:06
Theres also the staple "Its only a demo! You can't judge the game based on a demo." (I never understood this particular argument).

It is not a release demo. Most demos tend to be final release demos. This is a beta demo.

Jesus, P.I.
22nd Nov 2003, 06:11
Originally posted by Bio Denton
It is not a release demo. Most demos tend to be final release demos. This is a beta demo.

What are they doing releasing a Beta demo two weeks before official release? Do they want to piss all their fans off?

NamelessOne
22nd Nov 2003, 06:14
Originally posted by Bio Denton
It is not a release demo. Most demos tend to be final release demos. This is a beta demo.

I think you're a litttle bit confused on terms. You see, this is the demo Ion Storm has made for Deus Ex IW. It was made based on the final game, and released in order to generate sales for the final game. Its not a "beta demo".

A beta is a game that is still in development. It is usually not released, and when it is, its usually to a small group of people under an NDA (Non-Disclosure Agreement).

And by the way, what makes you say it is a "beta demo"? None of the Ion Storm people said this. Are you making it up? Or are you assuming so since its been released before the game was?

Sir-William
22nd Nov 2003, 07:02
Your theory is good but you always need middle ground or people who see point in both sides i'd call them The Middle Man or some thing like that.

NamelessOne
22nd Nov 2003, 08:59
Yep, thats true. I left the "MiddleMen" out because you can't really get a lot of info out of them. They're usually the rational ones saying "I like it, but I dislike ____ parts of it" or "I don't like it, but it has ___ as a redeeming feature" etc...

Sir-William
22nd Nov 2003, 10:37
yes that is ture but i think i go in "The Middle Man" for i hate many parts of the game such as health, no reloading and one ammo but like the freedom but hate is wining by far.
On the reloading that is inpossible for the simple fact that everything has a limit ok a energy weapon well we all know that you have to make it well ok a battery it funs out so you get a new one or recharge it so take while and have to use a new one while it is rechargeing and one ammo if you run out then find more you have to load it so even if there is 1000 in a "clip" you still have to replace it some time.

sargebaldy
22nd Nov 2003, 10:40
Originally posted by NamelessOne
It was made based on the final game, and released in order to generate sales for the final game.
Judging by the reaction on these boards, it'll have the opposite effect.

Prohass
22nd Nov 2003, 10:43
I think im a middle man, simply because im in shock, I just cant accept that the game would falter, so im waiting until the final version (not because I think it will be better, just because I dont want to to jump to to mcuh of a conclusion, because it breaks my heart to do so).

FliX
22nd Nov 2003, 10:45
Originally posted by sargebaldy
Judging by the reaction on these boards, it'll have the opposite effect.

quite...

ive stalled my preorder at amazon for now, till i can PLAY the demo

IconoclastDX
22nd Nov 2003, 11:18
Im reminded of what usually happens when you try to please everyone...

FliX
22nd Nov 2003, 11:30
Originally posted by IconoclastDX
Im reminded of what usually happens when you try to please everyone...

yea pleasing everybody is impossible

but only pleasing 2 ppl of 12 is like not good...:confused:

MDent
22nd Nov 2003, 11:36
I just found this from an old preview, it just seems laughable now imo, I wonder what on earth they were playing?:p .

"My first look at the character models was enough to convince me that we are closer than ever to seeing The Spirits Within-quality graphics in games. The facial animations, from the creases in the brow to the moving eyelids, lips and nostrils, are a sight to behold. Beloved characters from the first game, like Tracer Tong, return (showing noticeable age), and look simply lifelike. Their movements, as well, are as natural as I've seen in a game, whether it's a guard patrolling an alleyway or a mech scanning an area. Where the first game was simply passable, graphics-wise, Invisible War sets a new bar, perhaps only threatened by the likes of Half Life 2 and Doom 3."

ABRAXAAS
22nd Nov 2003, 11:38
Originally posted by MDent
I just found this from an old preview, it just seems laughable now imo, I wonder what on earth they were playing?:p .

"My first look at the character models was enough to convince me that we are closer than ever to seeing The Spirits Within-quality graphics in games. The facial animations, from the creases in the brow to the moving eyelids, lips and nostrils, are a sight to behold. Beloved characters from the first game, like Tracer Tong, return (showing noticeable age), and look simply lifelike. Their movements, as well, are as natural as I've seen in a game, whether it's a guard patrolling an alleyway or a mech scanning an area. Where the first game was simply passable, graphics-wise, Invisible War sets a new bar, perhaps only threatened by the likes of Half Life 2 and Doom 3."

What they say is true, half life 2 doom3 are better but thats it. oh and S.T.A.L.K.E.R Oblivion lost, wich in many aspects may rival all these games.

Jovena
22nd Nov 2003, 11:40
Originally posted by MDent
I just found this from an old preview, it just seems laughable now imo, I wonder what on earth they were playing?:p .

"My first look at the character models was enough to convince me that we are closer than ever to seeing The Spirits Within-quality graphics in games. The facial animations, from the creases in the brow to the moving eyelids, lips and nostrils, are a sight to behold. Beloved characters from the first game, like Tracer Tong, return (showing noticeable age), and look simply lifelike. Their movements, as well, are as natural as I've seen in a game, whether it's a guard patrolling an alleyway or a mech scanning an area. Where the first game was simply passable, graphics-wise, Invisible War sets a new bar, perhaps only threatened by the likes of Half Life 2 and Doom 3."


In about umm 10 years! ;)

Esquire
22nd Nov 2003, 11:47
I haven't played the demo, but from what i'm reading in these forums it is sounding really bad.

Why would IS release a demo that is sso bad? I mean, they must of sat and played the demo themselves. What could it possibly be that we're missing? I really don't understand how/why they would do this.

infact, i keep expecting some Eidos/IS guy to jus pop up and say, "don't worry folks, this was all a joke"

or in a few weeks time another demo to come out that is exceptionally good.

btw, was there a light-meter in the game? - ahh, i see there wasn't... well, no hopes of it being an older version of the game build

MDent
22nd Nov 2003, 11:56
Its probably been rushed in time for christmas. Why they released the demo though is puzzling. Wasnt tomb raider AOD supposed to have been rushed too?

ABRAXAAS
22nd Nov 2003, 12:00
all the hands on reviews i read had nothing but good things to say about it, but then again there pay'd to be open minded.

Bio Denton
22nd Nov 2003, 14:17
Originally posted by NamelessOne
I think you're a litttle bit confused on terms. You see, this is the demo Ion Storm has made for Deus Ex IW. It was made based on the final game, and released in order to generate sales for the final game. Its not a "beta demo".

A beta is a game that is still in development. It is usually not released, and when it is, its usually to a small group of people under an NDA (Non-Disclosure Agreement).

And by the way, what makes you say it is a "beta demo"? None of the Ion Storm people said this. Are you making it up? Or are you assuming so since its been released before the game was?

No, it is a beta demo, as it was specifically noted in the Devchat that the graphics engine and rendering was not finished, not to mention that many key features are not yet finished.

A beta version of a game is indeed development quality, and is considered to be a beta until the final build, right before shipping.

Most "Beta Testers" are employed just after the development comes out of Alpha and are used for mass-testing gameplay to ween out minor bugs and for benchmarking.

p-i
22nd Nov 2003, 15:11
Originally posted by Bio Denton
No, it is a beta demo, as it was specifically noted in the Devchat that the graphics engine and rendering was not finished, not to mention that many key features are not yet finished.

i'm sure in the next two weeks they'll improve the game dramatically.

Quillan
22nd Nov 2003, 15:36
Ok, I am not a programmer, and I could be wrong about this, but as I understand it the process goes something along these lines. Normally a demo is a small portion of the full game. They have to take pretty much the complete engine and include it to get the demo to run. They chop out the levels they are not going to include. They have to modify the scripting and configuration files to make it start where the demo starts. They have to add some default equipment in at the start, since unless the demo is the very beginning of the final game, in the real game you would be carrying over the equipment you have already collected. They have to include the full installer in order to set things up. All of this takes time, more than just a couple of hours. So, they have to start working on it in advance of the demo release date. Now, at this point in time we are ~2 weeks from the release of the retail version of the game. The main game needs to go gold very soon to make this release date. This means that the demo HAS to have been based upon an earlier build of the game, or they would not have had it ready for release yesterday. Since it's not a final build, there WILL be problems with it that are corrected in the retail version. The only way to avoid is to wait until after the retail version is out (with any patches that come) and build the demo from the final version.

As far as the comment about other games where problems were solved between the demo release and the game release, Call of Duty and Splinter Cell both pop to mind. Call of Duty was minor, but at least one of the weapons had the wrong ammo capacity. Splinter Cell was significant. The first demo had many glitches and performance issues. The second demo (a much later build) had many of those fixed and performance was better. By the time the game released performance was even better in the final version.

That is what people mean by "Don't judge the game by the demo".

tas42
22nd Nov 2003, 15:58
Originally posted by ABRAXAAS
all the hands on reviews i read had nothing but good things to say about it, but then again there pay'd to be open minded.

they've also played it from the very begining, and have a full (if not final) version of the game. they were able to go through tutorials and build their charater how they wanted. i think this demo was a bad idea in the sense that all we got was a very small map, without much to do, with a pre selected character. for example, it pretty hard to play this stealthly without the sniper riffle, or silencer mods, or strength aug (for batons and such). imagine if DX1 demo had been vandenburg without a sniper riffle, or cloak. ditto for the gas station. customization is everything in this game, and starting at some arbitray point an playing with a "generic" alex doesn't show off the game very well IMHO

grayswandir
22nd Nov 2003, 16:05
Originally posted by tas42
they've also played it from the very begining, and have a full (if not final) version of the game. they were able to go through tutorials and build their charater how they wanted. i think this demo was a bad idea in the sense that all we got was a very small map, without much to do, with a pre selected character. for example, it pretty hard to play this stealthly without the sniper riffle, or silencer mods, or strength aug (for batons and such). imagine if DX1 demo had been vandenburg without a sniper riffle, or cloak. ditto for the gas station.

maybe... but as for the interface thing and some others we can have an opinion on them with just the demo. The interface is not going to change in the middle of the game. nor will the pistol suddenly become lethal when shooting head. In fact the demo gave us an accurate idea of how gameplay will be...

Esquire
22nd Nov 2003, 16:08
it sounds to me like they've jus released this demo to keep us, the fans, happy.

I really can't believe that the game can be as poor as people say it is, and yet most previews say the game is great.

i agree with Quillan. This whole situation seems more to me like IS/Eidos has given us a pseudo-dxiw. I don't think this'll be the last DXIW demo we'll see.

tas42
22nd Nov 2003, 16:10
Originally posted by grayswandir
maybe... but as for the interface thing and some others we can have an opinion on them with just the demo. The interface is not going to change in the middle of the game. nor will the pistol suddenly become lethal when shooting head. In fact the demo gave us an accurate idea of how gameplay will be...

i have a feeling the interface will be fixed, same with the area damage. from what chris has said at the ION forums, they're already looking at it. but like i edited in my previous post, this game is soooooooo dependent on how you build your character, a mid game demo with "generic" alex just seems, well, stupid.

NamelessOne
22nd Nov 2003, 21:32
Originally posted by Bio Denton
No, it is a beta demo.

Haha, alright, you keep thinking that. It was the exact opinion of the fanboys on the Lionheart forum before it was released.Heard of Lionheart? No? Thats because the final version sucked as much as the dmeo. As for me, I've had a chance to play the demo, and I won't be buying DXIW.

MDent
22nd Nov 2003, 21:42
I'm still in disbelief really, I keep going back to the demo just to check if it really is that bad, and it is.

Viz
22nd Nov 2003, 21:45
Look, the point is, if this isn't a real indication of the game.. everything is wonderful *except* if people were contemplating the game and were playing the demo to see if they want it, they suddenly have just got turned off. I don't think that was Ion Storm's intention.

It is more realistic to see that this is probably 'it' - and the original poster is right - this is not just a wave of angry haters with no real reasoning.. we are all huge DX fans that are reasonable in what we wanted in the sequel. This is not only not meeting that criteria but is an absolutely awful answer, from everything from an stupidly huge interface to horrible cosmetics to awful sluggishness, its all a lesser version of the original. And that is what has caused this outrage, especially after waiting so long!

Thats why we ask for the delay to the PC version so it is released in a proper fashion. And if they do not agree, please remove the Deus Ex name from the front.. we don't need this stain on JC's leather jacket. :mad:

Bio Denton
23rd Nov 2003, 00:04
Originally posted by NamelessOne
Haha, alright, you keep thinking that. It was the exact opinion of the fanboys on the Lionheart forum before it was released.Heard of Lionheart? No? Thats because the final version sucked as much as the dmeo. As for me, I've had a chance to play the demo, and I won't be buying DXIW.

Then why are you still posting?

I don't think it is a beta demo, I know it is, as it was stated so. Next time you try to belittle someone, atleast read up on what you think you are talking about.

maniac44
23rd Nov 2003, 02:13
Originally posted by Quillan
That is what people mean by "Don't judge the game by the demo".

Personally, I DO judge (or at least decide to buy or not buy) a game by its demo. A good/fun/well done demo will make me want to buy the game. A crappy demo will make me wait and read many reviews before I consider plunking down $50 for a game. I may even completely avoid a game if the demo isn't what I think is good/fun/well done.

If a game company wants me to buy their game, they'll put out a killer demo.

NamelessOne
23rd Nov 2003, 03:52
Originally posted by Bio Denton
Then why are you still posting?

I don't think it is a beta demo, I know it is, as it was stated so. Next time you try to belittle someone, atleast read up on what you think you are talking about.

Perhaps you'd like to inform me, Mr Oh So Intelligent, why a company would release a "beta demo"? Obviously it would kill sales. The only reason Ion Storm would say something like that is because the general opinion of people who played it is turning against them, and they're trying to cover their *****.

As to why I'm still posting, I enjoy doing so. Watching the various excuses that people come up with to defend DXIW and its demo is interesting, in its own way. Not as interesting, as, say, a good game, but still interesting. You have a bit of a hostile attitude... Perhaps you're not happy with the demo either, and you're turning that anger against me? I'll let you think about that :D

MonkeyLungs
23rd Nov 2003, 04:00
or maybe he's afraid of you? or maybe.. you are afraid of him and he can sense the fear and inside he is beginning to become even more angry and soon nobody will have cake ...

NamelessOne
23rd Nov 2003, 04:11
Originally posted by MonkeyLungs
or maybe he's afraid of you? or maybe.. you are afraid of him and he can sense the fear and inside he is beginning to become even more angry and soon nobody will have cake ...

No cake? You can't be serious! If nobody had cake.... I can't even think about it!

Sense
24th Nov 2003, 01:28
Originally posted by ABRAXAAS
all the hands on reviews i read had nothing but good things to say about it, but then again there pay'd to be open minded.

Paid to be unbiased and fair? This is why you only hear sensationalized "good things" about it? Oh the irony.

Shinnosuke
24th Nov 2003, 01:40
Originally posted by Sense
Paid to be unbiased and fair? This is why you only hear sensationalized "good things" about it? Oh the irony.

One of the most blatant examples was unreal 2 being named best fps ever in the PCzone UK.

Another one is all magazines saying Hitman 2 was better than 1. While H2 has so many crap levels. And the mission structure was very annoyingly dumbed down. In fact very much the same had happened as now in Dues Ex 2. Hmm, what publisher did the hitman series have? Was that by any chance Eidos?????

F3nyx
24th Nov 2003, 01:45
I actually liked Hitman 2 a lot.

Somehow, all my guns had different ammo, and yet I didn't die of confusion.

NamelessOne
24th Nov 2003, 01:47
Originally posted by Shinnosuke

Another one is all magazines saying Hitman 2 was better than 1. While H2 has so many crap levels. And the mission structure was very annoyingly dumbed down. In fact very much the same had happened as now in Dues Ex 2. Hmm, what publisher did the hitman series have? Was that by any chance Eidos?????

I'd agree with that. Hitman 2 was much better, IMO, than 1.

Shinnosuke
24th Nov 2003, 01:50
Originally posted by F3nyx
I actually liked Hitman 2 a lot.

Somehow, all my guns had different ammo, and yet I didn't die of confusion.

hahahaha. Don't get me wrong, i didn't dislike hitman 2 (like I dislike the dx2 demo). Some of the levels were great. Like the first one, the last one (the tension there) and the hospital ones. But the many army-like missions were just boring.

What I meant was that Diana woman telling you exactly where everyone was and how to do your missions on your earphone.
If she could see everything around you were was she? Where were the cameras? Was she looking through your eyes? it all didn't make sense, and her voice was annoying.
Also IO interactive wanted to make the game even more brutal than the first one. Eidos stopped them,, told them to do exactly the opposite (therefore the bonus when you don't kill anyone but the target).
Eidos changed the way the developers and fans (right?) wanted the game for more mass-market sales. Eidos in collaboration with harvey Smith have done the same here.