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Catman
21st Nov 2003, 21:57
Originally posted by Jesus, P.I.:
Anyone else a little disappointed that a headshot is no longer an instant kill? I dunno, that kind of takes away from the tactical feel of combat. Is there ANY way to quietly eliminate opposition with some precision rather than electrocuting them noisily over a period of 10 seconds or pumping several rounds into them? If not, I think its fair to say that the combat to a certain extent has been "dumbed down.


Since I screwed up this poll by mistake, I'm recreating it. Sorry, Jesus, PI.

Damn knee jerk reaction. :(

Jesus, P.I.
21st Nov 2003, 22:27
Catman, thanks for your quick response in putting my poll back up. :)
...

Anyway, now that I have played the demo, I can safely say that my concerns about reloading have vanished. A good thing? Hardly. It is simply overshadowed by the removal of a principal element of FPS games that want to distance themselves from quake-style combat: the instantly fatal headshot.

Is anyone else slightly miffed that there is no more sneaking up on an enemy and putting a single slug in his head? I really, really wish that they had different amounts of damage for different body parts. Unified ammo? fine. Combined Lockpick/Multitool? fine. No reloading? Who really cares; these were all discussed and argued over incessently, but ultimately they are unimportant to me now that I have experienced the full lack of tactical possibilities in combat. :(

Am I just a lone voice in the wilderness, or do others agree?

*I did it! I completed this post without using the dreaded 'c' word that often reverberates around this forum.* ;)

PointlesS
21st Nov 2003, 22:40
yes I miss it because it was a good way to conserve ammo...killing guards with 1 shot is a lot more efficent than using 4-5 shots...combined with the fact that you have a unified ammo system does not help the situation either...why on earth did they take it out? was this to streamline the game some more? personally they streamlined way too much...the game is still cool though but seriously that was one of the cool parts of the game...

SK Denton
21st Nov 2003, 22:50
Legacy of Deus EX - R.I.P. - 11/21/03

Jesus, P.I.
21st Nov 2003, 22:58
Originally posted by SK Denton
Legacy of Deus EX - R.I.P. - 11/21/03

SK, I never really wanted to agree with you, because I always held out hope for a great game. But now I see that maybe you were right all along. Too many things are simplified. Now that I have played the demo, I am no longer ashamed to say that it has been seriously dumbed down.

I will be cancelling my pre-order.

Ashes to ashes, dust to dust :(

Helioform
21st Nov 2003, 23:12
The lack of location damage makes the game much less fun. You can't sneak up on people and kill them in one shot anymore. The only weapon used for sneaking up will be the stun prod now apparently.

They dumbed the game down WAY too much. And imagine, if it were up to Harvey Smith alone, there would be NO inventory. What went through his mind when he decided to get rid of the things that made Deus Ex great? I'm really wondering now.

Psychotext
21st Nov 2003, 23:16
I'm getting the same feeling. Such a great great shame. I may still buy the game to see if the story is up to scratch, but I have to agree that it has been butchered to a large extent.

Rarely have I played a sequel that removed the best features from its predecessor. Aahh. Such a real letdown, it could have been so much more if they had let in a few of the fans to advise on it a little earlier.

Breadman
21st Nov 2003, 23:23
I didn't realize they still even made games that didn't have localized body damage... wow. Though I havn't played it yet, I'm really sorry to hear this is gone. The most fun I had playing the original Deus Ex was beating the whole thing with one pistol and a laser sight attachment. Headshots every time. Now that was fun. I'm not sure how the rest of the game could possibly make up for something like this... sounds like a small feature but its much bigger than Ion Storm thinks apparently:(

Jesus, P.I.
21st Nov 2003, 23:28
Originally posted by Helioform
The only weapon used for sneaking up will be the stun prod now apparently.

You call that thing stealthy? It takes like 10 seconds to down a guard with that thing, and they make lots of noise before they go.
A far cry from the elegance of the DX1 prod

Helioform
21st Nov 2003, 23:36
Originally posted by Jesus, P.I.
You call that thing stealthy? It takes like 10 seconds to down a guard with that thing, and they make lots of noise before they go.
A far cry from the elegance of the DX1 prod

Well I mean in the sense of the guard not being able to react to you attacking him. You sneak up, zap him and he can't do anything. I hate to say it but, it's more realistic that he makes noises when being electrocuted...since it's pretty painful.

Jesus, P.I.
21st Nov 2003, 23:41
Well in order for a weapon to live up to my "stealth" standards, you have to be able to knock out or kill an enemy without enemies in an adjacent room noticing.

p-i
22nd Nov 2003, 00:10
* THIS POST SELF-CENSORED DUE TO EXTREME VIOLENCE *

Jesus, P.I.
22nd Nov 2003, 00:15
Originally posted by p-i
I think someone needs to give Harvey a personal demonstration on the damage of a point blank headshot :E

I agree that Harvey and team were out of line when they made the decision to do away with localized body damage, but I don't want to get this thread closed due to threats of physical violence. It is a long shot, but I somehow want the people at ion storm to realize what people think about this issue. I am very serious with this poll. The lack of localized damage is enough to ruin the game for me.

GingerNinja
22nd Nov 2003, 00:24
I think this post on www.halflife2.net sums it up fairly well:


Well... I'm absolutely appalled. I was shocked at how horrible this demo was.

Pro

-RT lighting is cool
-Fun to pick up things and throw them
-Nifty gadgets
-Open-Ended

Con

-Enemies take about 5 million shots to kill
-HUD from Hell makes you feel like you're driving a submarine
-Movement feels all wrong
-Crouching is more like going prone
-Bad A.I. (Instead of going around corners they run against the wall)
-Physics are all screwy + cruddy sound effects when things fall
-Jerky animation
-Worst inventory system ever
-Config reset bug
-Runs poorly on my fairly decent system
-Ugly graphics

I'm the kind of guy who likes practically much any game I try (I liked Enter the Matrix for God's sake!) but this one was just simply unplayable. What a shame.



------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


There is more I could add, but I wont. Everyone knows how bad this is........




I am very upset that they ruined a good game.

Jesus, P.I.
22nd Nov 2003, 00:51
Did Warren and Harvey surround themselves by mindless yes-men whose only job was to agree with every design decision they made? How could they do something like this? They were telling us that people who had played the preview just loved it. Well, if you take a look around Eidos and Ion Storm forums, reaction from us gamers is more mixed. After all, we are not yes-men. We have nothing to gain by pretending anything coming from IS is pure gold.

C-Tzar
22nd Nov 2003, 02:36
When I heard/read about the removal of the localized damage, I thought they just meant for the player. I could KINDA see how that might be good for a console, even if it sucked for PC. But removing the localized damage for the ENEMIES (lack of head-shot kills) just can't be justified any way you slice it. :mad:

Dav1000
22nd Nov 2003, 02:54
Wait, what? I could have sworn that the devs specifically said that locational damage was in for enemies but out for the player. I'm very confused now...and I can't play the demo, sadly...

Unstoppable
22nd Nov 2003, 02:57
Um localized damage is in. Just because you can't one shot people in the head dosen't mean it isn't. You can 3 shot ppl in the head with pistol but not in the leg. That makes sense plus it's there because of hostilities a noob might trigger.

Sniper rifle shots are one shot one kill no doubt as seen in videos.

So to conclude it matters where you shoot but enemies have a health bar that needs to be brought down to kill them.

Dav1000
22nd Nov 2003, 03:00
Oh...okay, that makes much more sense. Thanks, Unstoppable.

Jesus, P.I.
22nd Nov 2003, 03:06
If there is localized damage, why in the hell can I not kill people with one shot to the head with my pistol? AT POINT BLANK RANGE!!! It should not take a sniper rifle to lay a guy low quietly. So is there localized damage, or not? An academic distinction really, because the system is implemented so poorly and just needs to be fixed.

F3nyx
22nd Nov 2003, 03:18
When you do the game equivalent of placing a pistol to the back of someone's head and firing, and the guy doesn't die... does this not scream "PROBLEM"?

Sci
22nd Nov 2003, 03:21
I'll tell you what this game is: it's Unreal Tournament for the Xbox (only on PC) and in a Deus Ex-like setting.

WAKE UP, PEOPLE! This game has been hit by a stupid stick. Over and over and over again

Sir-William
22nd Nov 2003, 03:30
Well i'll miss it alot and form what i Understand thay cut out some of the Best stuff and for me its just to far.

C-Tzar
22nd Nov 2003, 03:44
Originally posted by Unstoppable
Um localized damage is in. Just because you can't one shot people in the head dosen't mean it isn't. You can 3 shot ppl in the head with pistol but not in the leg. That makes sense plus it's there because of hostilities a noob might trigger.


It's amazing how far some people will stretch to defend a POS. OK, now I realize that Phineas Gage has shown that one CAN survive having a chunk of metal ripping your brain apart, but this is a VERY rare exception. In the real world, if you put a bullet in someone's head at point blank range, they die. Period. I don't care which direction they are facing or whether they know it's coming or not. Bullet+head=dead. If noobs are so stupid that they don't realize that shooting someone might not make them happy then they need to go back to playing solitaire. And again, it shouldn't matter because a head shot should not make someone hostile, it should make them DEAD!

It's not just bullets. I can understand that it's POSSIBLE to accidentally hit someone with a chair, but I spent 5 whole minutes at least doing nothing but throwing that chair at the same few people. Don't get me wrong, this WAS a lot of fun, but instead of pounding my head into the pavement after the second airborn piece of furniture like they should have done, I was still able to walk up to them and have a friendly conversation.

They wanna cater to noobs by making what could have been an aweome game into mindless drivel then fine. I hope they can get enough noobs to buy the game to make up for all the real gamers that won't.

Jesus, P.I.
22nd Nov 2003, 04:01
Originally posted by C-Tzar
And again, it shouldn't matter because a head shot should not make someone hostile, it should make them DEAD!

The sad thing is that it takes three headshots for someone to become hostile. So much for that killer AI. But wait... it is not even an AI glitch:


Friendly/neutral guards also need to take a certain amount of damage before they will go hostile to you -- that's so that you won't screw yourself with a stray shot.
(From an admin at the Ion Storm forums)

...

Is it just me, or is this an insult to our intelligence? Do these people really think that we have such twitchy trigger fingers? If you make a "stray shot" that hits someone in the head, that person should die and you should have to pay the consequences for your actions or load a saved game. At least that is what a real game in the spirit of Deus Ex would do. This game is not worthy of any association with such a great classic.

Agent D
22nd Nov 2003, 04:05
I really wanted to be wrong about the console dumbing down... but I guess I was right. :(

Apparently "streamlining" the game means taking out everything remotely tactical and interesting from the first game. I might have managed to suffer through the unified ammo, no reloading, no leaning, no keyboard interfaces for the keypads, and the horribly TV-sized text and interface, but if I have to shoot someone 4 times in the head with a pistol to kill them, what's the point?

What makes it so much worse is that the REST of the game is awesome, they just neutered the combat. Ughh. No preorder for me, I'm just going buy it when it's $30, and always wonder how cool it could have been had they made it for the PC.

F3nyx
22nd Nov 2003, 04:45
ION STORM:

87% of 53 voters want localized damage!

Please, take a hint from this.

Jesus, P.I.
22nd Nov 2003, 05:17
Originally posted by F3nyx
ION STORM:

87% of 53 voters want localized damage!

Please, take a hint from this.

Amen! This is why I started this poll. I want to get enough votes so that we can show Ion Storm just what we think of their "innovation."

crimson_stallion
22nd Nov 2003, 06:29
"Rember your training from the academy. stay in the shadows to avoid detection and remember, a headshot is a lethal takedown..."

-Alex Jacobson
Deus Ex

Can't remember if that was the exact quote, but it was along those lines. I guess Invisible Was wants to introduce contradictions ..

nimbus
22nd Nov 2003, 06:45
Since we're on the subject of one-hit takedowns, can I ask--does the baton not work either?

Chris Carollo
22nd Nov 2003, 06:49
For the record, DX:IW does have localized damage. The pistol's headshot bonus may not be very high, and it may not be tuned very well, but it's definitely there.

The sniper rifle, for example, will definitely result in a one-headshot kill for most enemies.

Remember, the demo doesn't include all the weapons. There are a number of stealthy ways of taking people out.

Jesus, P.I.
22nd Nov 2003, 06:55
Originally posted by Chris Carollo
For the record, DX:IW does have localized damage. The pistol's headshot bonus may not be very high, and it may not be tuned very well, but it's definitely there.

The sniper rifle, for example, will definitely result in a one-headshot kill for most enemies.

Remember, the demo doesn't include all the weapons. There are a number of stealthy ways of taking people out.

I can't think of someone I would rather hear from in this regard, thanks for clarifying. But remember: the pistol is small, but it still fires fatal bullets, and last I checked most people who suffer a head shot even with such small arms don't usually live to tell about it. I hope the current situation is ammended somewhat, and now I am hopeful that it can be ammended. Thanks for reaching out to concerned fans.

SK Denton
22nd Nov 2003, 06:56
Originally posted by Chris Carollo
For the record, DX:IW does have localized damage. The pistol's headshot bonus may not be very high, and it may not be tuned very well, but it's definitely there.

The sniper rifle, for example, will definitely result in a one-headshot kill for most enemies.

Remember, the demo doesn't include all the weapons. There are a number of stealthy ways of taking people out.

So you are suggesting that we will have to settle for sneaking through a vent with a huge sniper rifle just so we can get a head shot that actually acts like a head shot?

How about IS takes their head out of their arse and revert back to the award winning gameplay system of DX instead of insisting that we get used to the crap that they have decided to serve us.

Chris Carollo
22nd Nov 2003, 07:10
Originally posted by SK Denton
So you are suggesting that we will have to settle for sneaking through a vent with a huge sniper rifle just so we can get a head shot that actually acts like a head shot?

How about IS takes their head out of their arse and revert back to the award winning gameplay system of DX instead of insisting that we get used to the crap that they have decided to serve us.
Well, first, that wasn't very polite. No reason to be a jerk.

And didn't you regularly sneak through vents in DX1 carrying a backpack full of enormous equipment (ie GEP gun)? Is that really the objection here? Because I'm not seeing why it's significant.

I'm just making the point that there may be better weapons available for doing stealthy takedowns. The pistol, especially an unmodified one, may just not be a very good weapon for that kind of thing. It may be that the values for pistol headshots need to be tuned -- I already said that we'd be looking into it. It may be just that the pistol is the base weapon in the game, and as such, doesn't do a whole lot of damage.

PointlesS
22nd Nov 2003, 07:18
I guess we're just kind of suprised since in the first one you could have one shot kills with an unmodified pistols and only be at trained skill levels...sure it'd take you longer to get the crosshair to the center but you could easily do it...anyways since we're talking about damage and stuff I really think the damage limit for the enemy to go hostle should be lowered quite a bit...it did seem rather odd to shoot a guy and have him just say something to you and go on his merry way...oh and btw is this the first level in the full game?

SK Denton
22nd Nov 2003, 07:27
Originally posted by Chris Carollo
Well, first, that wasn't very polite. No reason to be a jerk.

And didn't you regularly sneak through vents in DX1 carrying a backpack full of enormous equipment (ie GEP gun)? Is that really the objection here? Because I'm not seeing why it's significant.

I'm just making the point that there may be better weapons available for doing stealthy takedowns. The pistol, especially an unmodified one, may just not be a very good weapon for that kind of thing. It may be that the values for pistol headshots need to be tuned -- I already said that we'd be looking into it. It may be just that the pistol is the base weapon in the game, and as such, doesn't do a whole lot of damage.

Excuse me, but I have every reason to be a jerk and then some. I have been waiting for this game for years only to be immensely dissapointed (understatement). At least I have the power to not give IS my money, and believe me I won't.

And as far as the damage issues go - my point is that any weapon to the face should kill me and everyone else(even the pistol), and not only the sniper rifle.

p7eter
22nd Nov 2003, 08:04
i posted some thoughts on body damage, as well as other thoughts, here:

http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=27888

Agent D
22nd Nov 2003, 12:30
I think the issue is that we like the tactical and (fairly)realistic gameplay of Deus Ex, and the Invisible War demo just feels like a cheap arcade shooter.

Every weapon (similar to real life) in Deus Ex 1 was powerful. If that is the case (pistol is weak) giving the player an incredibly ineffective starting weapon seems like something out of Quake 3 or UT2K3, not Deus Ex. :(

ABRAXAAS
22nd Nov 2003, 12:38
Why has no one mentioned the tranqualizer gun yet!, its in teh demo? i never actualy tried it but youd think it would work.

for those who havnt found it its at the bottom of teh elevator shaft.

Psychotext
22nd Nov 2003, 13:11
Actually... I was trying to shoot it through the vent (To the trainer's room) and was annoyed that I couldn't shoot into the room without opening the grill (There was plenty of space between the bars.)

It doesn't work too bad, you just have to do it from long range cos they will run at you whilst it is working.

ABRAXAAS
22nd Nov 2003, 13:14
doesnt matter anyways the thing takes a couple shots to knock someone down, wich adds merrit to my opinion that the weapons damage was toned down for testing purposes and tehy faild to reset it before releasing the demo.

ABRAXAAS
22nd Nov 2003, 13:16
Actually the more i think about it it has to be the asnwer, there saying so much about having the option of stealth, when there litteraly isnt anyway of being stealthy, it just has to be a mistake, it cant logically be anything else.

ABRAXAAS
22nd Nov 2003, 13:28
yet another thing to consider is the "Damage upgrade" option for weapons, im not sure how much effect it will have but, it will have some.

Mr.Shroom
22nd Nov 2003, 13:35
ABRAXAAS...edit function? :eek:

I'll probably get lynched for saying this, but maybe its because the Mako pistol and its ilk don't actual SHOOT conventional bullets. I mean, you're using some sort of nanite system that converts raw material ammunition into a high speed projectile, right?

Well, could it be the SIZE of the projectile, then? Perhaps we're dealing with more bee-bee gun style 'bullets' than a Dirty Harry style pistol. :)

The SMG and shotgun seem okay...but I will confess, that on a few runthroughs, gaurds survived two shotgun blasts to the back of the head. But again...er, nanite bullets? Helmet?...Future Skin?

Hey, at least I'm trying. Throw me a bone. :p

Psychotext
22nd Nov 2003, 13:37
I was thinking about the helmet thing, but it wouldn't account for the trainer whose head I had to put at least 4 bullets into.

Mr.Shroom
22nd Nov 2003, 13:43
Yeah. Hence I'm personally leaning more on 'They Ain't Bullets, Tex' as my answer. But its still...iffy. But we COULD change it.

At least I THINK we can. (http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=27911)

Five.Pointe.O
22nd Nov 2003, 14:32
1 shot to the head kills = A MUST for any game, regardless of weapon. (THROWING KNIVES from Goldeneye anyone?)

I still think IW will be an awesome GAME even though the demo might reallllly suck (haven't played it). I just REALLY hope they coded the locational damage thing and set it aside just in case..... oh well a fan can dream.:rolleyes:

VIVA LA HEADSHOTS!

HEADSHOTS EN VIE LONG!

LANG LEBEND HEADSHOTS!

LUNGO VIVO HEADSHOTS!

*spends too much time on free translation websites*

p-i
22nd Nov 2003, 14:45
Originally posted by Jesus, P.I.
I agree that Harvey and team were out of line when they made the decision to do away with localized body damage, but I don't want to get this thread closed due to threats of physical violence. It is a long shot, but I somehow want the people at ion storm to realize what people think about this issue. I am very serious with this poll. The lack of localized damage is enough to ruin the game for me.

:rolleyes:

next time i attempt some dark humor i will preface it with legal disclaimers.

i consider splinter cell to be the best example of stealth combat (which was also jointly developed for the xbox, i believe), compared to which the demo's attempt at it is a worse joke than mine.

Luagsch
22nd Nov 2003, 17:08
ok, i could live with the idea of a bb-gun, but the guns are all using the same ammo... so a shotgun is the uber-bb-gun???

shooting at a friendly guard without consequences? shoot him once, he shoots back once (saying stuff like "what the f**k is wrong with you?") and warns you. if you do it again he shoots the living s**t out of you.

there has to be a headshot-kill at closed range without it being a rocketlauncher/5foot sniperrifle or whatever. else i will extremly miss some of the stealth-aspect in the game.

to sum it up. ion overdid it with the "letting unecessairy stuff away" part. they ended up leaving important stuff (in a player judges gameplay sort of way) out.
it really feels like washed up for a console. i'm sad now :(
hopefully they can tune some stuff until the final game comes out. or at least give the possibility for the mod-scene to change some stuff afterwards to make it a worthy dx1 successor

F3nyx
23rd Nov 2003, 00:02
I'm just making the point that there may be better weapons available for doing stealthy takedowns. The pistol, especially an unmodified one, may just not be a very good weapon for that kind of thing. It may be that the values for pistol headshots need to be tuned -- I already said that we'd be looking into it. It may be just that the pistol is the base weapon in the game, and as such, doesn't do a whole lot of damage.First, let me say, thanks for reading this thread. It's good to know our voices are heard...

Point taken, yes, some weapons are always more lethal than others. A .22 rifle is a lot more dangerous than a .22 pistol (I think :p ), etc. However - even if the pistol is the "base weapon," it's a pistol. Making pistols with one-shot killing power, especially when applied to the cranium, has been commonplace for centuries.

As you know, immersion is a huge factor in a game like Deus Ex. What does it do for immersion when a pistol, which is at its core a fairly crude weapon, fails to kill with one or even two shots to the head? Do the bullets disintegrate upon impact? Are the bullets subsonic in a really major way? Have all the NPCs had their skulls restructured with titanium alloy?

There are a lot of better ways to establish the pistol as a "base weapon." Give it a short range, or give the AI some better combat routines (I know that the latter wouldn't be easy). I'm sure there are bunches of established "limiting factors" for the effectiveness of DX2's guns that I don't know about.

But if you must completely neuter it, at least give it a less misleading name, like the "Mako Airsoft" or something :p

If you read this, thanks. I'm trying to offer some constructive criticism, so don't take it the wrong way.

Oh, one more thing - the new prod. It's not a stealth weapon any more. In fact, I didn't find a single weapon in the game capable of a quick, silent takedown. I can maybe understand a few seconds of twitching, like you'd get sometimes in DX1, and it would be good for guards to shout if you didn't stun them right the first time. However, it's nowhere near what it used to be in terms of usefulness. Same with the knife.

Zeus
23rd Nov 2003, 01:11
I stabbed the gob-trainer in the BACK OF THE HEAD WITH A KNIFE TWICE and she didn't die. That's just wrong. I stabbed her twice in the head and she had enough time to whip around and shoot me with her pistol. THIS NEEDS TO BE FIXED!!!!!!!

Then again, if it isn't fixed by release, can't they just patch it?

Klown
23rd Nov 2003, 01:34
3 shotgun blasts to the face at point blank range means somthing needs to be done about the localized damage. wether its there or not.

Dav1000
23rd Nov 2003, 03:25
The damage levels can be edited in the ini (see this thread in the IS forums for details: http://www.ionstorm.com/forum/viewthread.asp?forum=AMB_AP619612110&id=34880 ) so it should be quite easy to fix before release or in a patch or even by the user.

ABRAXAAS
23rd Nov 2003, 09:37
Originally posted by Dav1000
The damage levels can be edited in the ini (see this thread in the IS forums for details: http://www.ionstorm.com/forum/viewthread.asp?forum=AMB_AP619612110&id=34880 ) so it should be quite easy to fix before release or in a patch or even by the user.

you people assume there is a problem that they feel they should fix. I dont see it. theyve already said that with the use of biomods you will become stronger, enabling you to be able to do that. if you can already do it WHATS THE POINT OF THE STRENGTH BIOMOD!.. now shutup and wait for the full game.

dimple
23rd Nov 2003, 11:11
Abraxaas, I don't understand why you bother defending something that is obviously broken. I don't care if it's a bullet or a BB. If it penetrates your skull, you should die. Oh and btw, I do believe Deus Ex 1 was just fine having deadly weapons. Did that make the biomods any less useful? No, it didn't.

p-i
23rd Nov 2003, 11:22
Originally posted by ABRAXAAS
you people assume there is a problem that they feel they should fix. I dont see it. theyve already said that with the use of biomods you will become stronger, enabling you to be able to do that. if you can already do it WHATS THE POINT OF THE STRENGTH BIOMOD!.. now shutup and wait for the full game.

whether or not they feel it should be fixed, the majority of people here think it should be.

yes, that's entirely believable. without further augmentation your genetically engineered secret agent is as weak as a school girl. no wonder, then, that you are only capable of using airsoft toys.

lyra
23rd Nov 2003, 17:09
cancelling deus ex invisible war....getting call of duty....i dont have any money to burn. besides i find it really stupid that they dumbed down an awesome game. they had the concept and all...oh well thers other games. deus ex was good IW may be good i dunno (if its in production then fat chance its gonna be any different from the friggin demo) . im gonna wait for HL2, get call of duty, get Prince Of persia and reinstal deus ex...and forget that there ever was a sequel to it.

Sense
23rd Nov 2003, 22:38
Originally posted by GingerNinja


I'm the kind of guy who likes practically much any game I try (I liked Enter the Matrix for God's sake!) but this one was just simply unplayable. What a shame.

jaywalker2309
24th Nov 2003, 00:03
What difficulty are people playing it on, there are modifiers that come into effect depending on the level set.

I've watched QA playing the game, and seen them sneak up to people and take them out with a single shot or knock them out easily. Am just wondering if the Demo really broke these modifiers as i dont believe the full game had these problems - Will have a word with the guys in the morning.

F3nyx
24th Nov 2003, 00:12
What difficulty are people playing it on, there are modifiers that come into effect depending on the level set.

I've watched QA playing the game, and seen them sneak up to people and take them out with a single shot or knock them out easily. Am just wondering if the Demo really broke these modifiers as i dont believe the full game had these problems - Will have a word with the guys in the morning.
Thanks :cool:

bobk
24th Nov 2003, 05:12
With the strength bio mod level 3, I can kill a gaurd with
one hit to the head every time using the baton. It takes
2 hits to the body. There is some location damage going
on.

Viking2
24th Nov 2003, 09:46
Humph. People complained about how badly the skill system worked in Deus Ex because the character's aim was so bad at the beginning even though he was a trained agent. Now, the character has perfect aim, but is weak as a ninny and can't fire anything that doesn't fire cotton balls. What's the point? If you ask me, the first one was more believable. Any (wo)man is strong enough to stab or shoot someone in the head an kill them. However, not all people are good at aiming. Instead of a biomod, they should have just kept the skill system. I don't get what they improved.

Jesus, P.I.
24th Nov 2003, 18:28
Originally posted by Viking2
Humph. People complained about how badly the skill system worked in Deus Ex because the character's aim was so bad at the beginning even though he was a trained agent. Now, the character has perfect aim, but is weak as a ninny and can't fire anything that doesn't fire cotton balls. What's the point? If you ask me, the first one was more believable. Any (wo)man is strong enough to stab or shoot someone in the head an kill them. However, not all people are good at aiming. Instead of a biomod, they should have just kept the skill system. I don't get what they improved.

Agreed. One of the major complaints with the skill system in DX had to do with the fact that since JC is an elite anti-terrorist agent, he should already be skilled in both weapon and infiltration tactics. How does the biomod system remedy this? Now instead of needing skills to hack computers you need a biomod. Now instead of needing skills to knock someone out you need a biomod.

It seems that Alex D. has no skills of his/her own and needs to equip a biomod for every task that he/she wants to perform effectively. And how is this an improvement over the skill system?
DX had both useful skills which formed the basis for your character's abilities, and augmentations that provided some pretty cool extra abilities. But in DX:IW, there is nothing really to account for the skill of Alex D. Anyone who needs strength-enhancing nannites to knock someone out with a police baton is a pathetic wuss, not an elite anti-terrorist agent. I hope Alex D's sponsoring corporation is Luv's, cause Alex wouldn't really fit anywhere else.

Jock
26th Nov 2003, 04:44
If people can be hit in the face with a .177 air pistol (about 300 fps) and die, a super hi-tech future gun should do the job with not 3, not 2, but 1 shot. If future guns suck this bad, ill give Alex my dads target .22 in the future, hell do better with that. Dear god, DX is better then this. How about making a completly diferently made game for console and PC? Its rather obvious that contrary to what they said, it has been dumbed down and made for the Xbox, and ported to the computer.

Godwin
26th Nov 2003, 09:39
in DX1 it still took about 2 10mm shots(stealth pistol) to the neck/head to take down a person, i had to fire about 5 or 6 shots of that freaking mako****pistol to the head to kill that greasal trainer

furthermore, the controls are sluggish, and the gun doesnt have that 'bang' factor, it sounds like some air gun....

Le`Sauveur`De`Ces`Dames
26th Nov 2003, 12:35
by the way, this problem has nothing to do with localized damages.

and there ARE localized damages in DX:IW, on the NPC. not on you

LabMonkey
30th Nov 2003, 11:40
Humph. People complained about how badly the skill system worked in Deus Ex because the character's aim was so bad at the beginning even though he was a trained agent. Now, the character has perfect aim, but is weak as a ninny and can't fire anything that doesn't fire cotton balls. What's the point? If you ask me, the first one was more believable. Any (wo)man is strong enough to stab or shoot someone in the head an kill them. However, not all people are good at aiming. Instead of a biomod, they should have just kept the skill system. I don't get what they improved.


Well put.

I just hope they spent plenty of time play testing and distributing the ammo in the full version cause, combine the weak firepower with unified ammo and you got a potential problem resulting in nerf melee.

GreenTea
30th Nov 2003, 13:23
Fact is, 'Realistic' difficulty in DX:IW just does-not-compute when put to the most basic test...

Firstly the damage and force of the weapons should be made realistic.. and I think that after that it should distinguish whether the enemy was hit in the face or in the backside...

Yes I would go so far as to say the arse should be a targetable area. There is nothing like being shot in the arse. Seriously, you have a much less chance of dying if your face is not in the way.

Jong
30th Nov 2003, 13:31
By the way I agree we badly need localised damage 'improving' and I don't just mean headshots.

But I guess if we wanted to invent a justification to make us feel a bit better with the game as it is we could say that in the world of DX2, where violence is everywhere and black market biomods are widely available, every security guard and two bit thug has invested in at least a low grade anti-ballistic nano-upgrade. Either that or the Mako is part of the conspiracy and their pistol is infact a disguised pea-shooter!

I'm not trying to defend the design decisions here, just trying to aid the immersion!

Jock
1st Dec 2003, 04:27
And whats with attacking someone for half a minute with a combat knife to kill them? I could slash anyone it the throat first shot with my 2 inch buck pocket knife and it would kill them (or make them go into shock, and they die a bit latter).

LoneGhostMoon
1st Dec 2003, 06:18
look... the pistol is supposted to be very weak but very ammo sufficent i actully the the one hit kills makes the game more stratigic when i was playing the demo i found myself shoting them then swithing the the shotgun while i ran into another room and i shot a smoke bomb and ran out there and through a frag grenade and killed 4 of them. then had to zap one of them to death to make sure they wouldnt shoot me back and i through there dead body in front of the door so the gresel lady couldnt come out until i switched to a frag and trough it through her window and killed her greasel and her. it was great and im tired of people saying it takes away the skill i though it made the game too easy... heck even in halo you can shoot them 5 times in the head before they die unless there using a sniper. and this game isnt tring to be super realistic or anything you can tell by the crazy ragdoll engine i really think its something new and the game is really emerse. though they say the game will only be 18 hours or something it will have great replay value even the creators said so... ive played the demo for 2 hours alreadly. and about the melee weapons they were weak in dues ex 1 too untill you used an agmentation. a key thing with what they have done with this game was put more emphasis on augmentaions and weapons upgrades. by using a level 2 melee augment youll probly be able to kill someone quite fast . and heck theres going to be a sword like the old game! plus if your running low on ammo maybe put a few in there head then go stab them. please stop your crying your making a good game look worse than it really is by playing a tiny demo the full game will give you more than 6 enemys so you wont pay so much attenstion to things like localised damage. PLEASE MY DEUS EX FRIENDS STOP YOUR FUEDS AND BUY THIS GAME. possibly theyll make a better deus ex 3? if they get enough... may next time theyll put alot of things back in and i bet people will complain why its not like the second one and why theres one hit head shots....(if there was one hit head shots what would be the point in upgradeing gun damage and what not????) hope i helped you! have a deus ex good time!:) :D :p ;) :cool:

LoneGhostMoon
1st Dec 2003, 06:22
One thing that i am actully mad about is the blood What is that? i got a 500 dollar video card 3 days ago how the heck are you calling that blood i think the blood in deus ex one LOOKS BETTER there better be a blood mod cause my eyes will be bleeding if i have to look at that! heck id have a mod that gave the blood from deus ex one back and even worse the blood doesnt get on the ground in this game so how is the game rated M??? please help me i know this isnt the forum for this but please...

Psychotext
1st Dec 2003, 08:30
Oh... and I want gibbage. Nothing more satisfying than the blood curdling scream of Navarre followed by a week long cleaning job for the janitor. :D

Grey Death
2nd Dec 2003, 08:04
If it hasn't been said... a person can be killed with a .22 caliber round if struck in the head... in one shot (I've personally lived on farm and we took down cows for slaughter with a .22 long rifle round to the head)... and a 9mm round will take a portion of ones brain when it passes out the other side... 9 times out of 10 you will not survive a head wound caused by a gunshot. Oh and if someone even accidently shot me I would be instantly hostile if I knew who it was... :(

Lord Gib
3rd Dec 2003, 01:17
Originally posted by Jesus, P.I.
*I did it! I completed this post without using the dreaded 'c' word that often reverberates around this forum.* ;)

What?

Cancer?

:confused:

Lord Gib
3rd Dec 2003, 01:22
Originally posted by Psychotext
Oh... and I want gibbage. Nothing more satisfying than the blood curdling scream of Navarre followed by a week long cleaning job for the janitor. :D

YES!

The Gibs shall rain down upon us for the time of the Purification is at hand!

Gibs are good. :D

Luagsch
3rd Dec 2003, 01:26
ok, i got that part about one shot kills are not always cool in a direct confrontation. or8.
but i just thought about it:
thief and thief 2 showed how this problem could be solved. if the enemy is not aware of you, headshots kills in 1 shot. if the enemy is aware you're there than it takes more. that would imensly add to the stealth-gameplay.
it worked awesome in the thief-series. it would have been a great solution for dx:iw too imo

Le`Sauveur`De`Ces`Dames
3rd Dec 2003, 08:39
Originally posted by Luagsch
enemy is not aware of you, headshots kills in 1 shot. if the enemy is aware you're there than it takes more. that would imensly add to the stealth-gameplay.

and how can you justify that logically? I mean, does their skulls becomes suddenly harder because their know the bullet is comming?

(by the way, it was also implemented in DX1)

oh, and again, there ARE body damages in DX:IW : not on yourself, but on the enemies

Random
3rd Dec 2003, 09:55
You can test the location damage in the demo. Grab a baton and walk up to someone. If you hit them in the body, they'll take about four hits to go down. But if you hit them in the head, they'll only take two or three. And this is without the strength biomod. ;)

kefren
3rd Dec 2003, 09:57
I liked the head shot a lot. While first reaction is that this would solicit running up to someone and shooting them in the head, it does actually increase your choices.

"There's just one guard so I risk shooting him in the head for a quick take down and run to prevent retaliation or do I sneak past"

Also it increases realism. You could never give a headshot in DX1 and expect to get away with it if there was more than one guard.

Actually the MIB in deus ex did not die with just one headshot. It took like 3 or for but I think definetely it needs to be re-instated for normal personnel / NPC (or at least persons not wearing a helmet :-) )

Also critical persons to the plot werent killable (I tried killing simmons in the cafetaria with the doc once. It didn`t work.)
If the developers are concerned that this unbalances the game they could make key persons more resistent.

[EDIT] Regarding Anna Navarre and the Janitor, try saying "Flatlander Woman" to her for some spectacular fireworks. Maybe Alex D. has a killphrase as well.

Psychotext
3rd Dec 2003, 10:10
"How did you...." - SPLAT. :D

heavyarms
3rd Dec 2003, 12:56
sorry bout this IS but deus ex worked on pc and not consol because of things like localised damage, skills, augs and gameplay(bit harsh). to make a consol game you sit take a **** and put it in a box. DXIW is soooooooooooo changed from DX its hard to see that its the same team or even the same idea.
everything removed are the things that set it apart and made it IMHO the best game i ever played. without them it's a game with nothing to entertain a pc gamer(story might be good though).
im in the UK do i don't get it till feb but i DID preorder from the US to get it first just cancelled it on the grounds of the demo. fix it. patch it. KILL IT. do something! on the strength of the demo you just released the worst game ever.

anyone for a game of rise of the robots its better than this ****!!!!!!!!!!!!!;)

:mad: how could it be ruined:mad:

GrimDanfango
3rd Dec 2003, 14:55
The thing I really don't get is this...

Why do they have so little faith in the intelligence of Xbox owners?

Why should the fact that a game is made for the Xbox require that it be dumbed down at all?!... The ONLY real limitation they face is the interface design... and there are plenty of clever ways they could get around that. Beyond Good and Evil has an amazing cyclic interface for inputting numbers/letters - one that would work perfectly for a thumbstick - so even the issue about typing in usernames could be solved!

I personally think this should have been PC only... in my opinion FPS-style games are totally wasted on consoles. All that crafting of complex, immersive, atmospheric environments goes to waste because console players don't look around (its too damn awkward to bother!)
But that said... there is this unbreakable belief in the games industry as a whole that the way to appeal to the largest audience is to make games for as many consoles as possible, and to simplify it to such an extent that it can be enjoyed by even the most hard-of-thinking. I don't own a console... but IS... infact everyone in the damn industry - GIVE CONSOLE OWNERS SOME CREDIT!

On the issue of damage effect - in real life, if you gave a monkey a low-powered pistol, it would kill someone if it shot them in the friggin head... the point of upgrading pistols/anything would still be very relevent, because (especially on xbox) head shots are hard to pull off (or should be... bring back the DX1 aiming system!) and so an upgraded pistol might afford you the same 1-hit-kill if you shot someone in the chest instead... while a low powered one would merely seriously incapacitate them.

- I find it hard to picture the meetings at IS, where they all sat down and decided all these features, based on their fantastic vision of a game with a world that emulates the choices and effects of reality so closely. How did they ever come to these conclusions?!... they're supposed to be professional games designers, and ask any one of their fanbase of millions, most of whome have never attempted to create a computer game themselves, and they'd point out every mistake they'd made in an instant!

nkmutant
3rd Dec 2003, 19:37
This is the most lopsided poll i've ever seen.

Dav1000
3rd Dec 2003, 20:02
Originally posted by nkmutant
This is the most lopsided poll i've ever seen.
Yeah. I thought people would stop voting on it after the lead programmer came and stated that there is localized body damage, but I guess it's always hard to stop a mob with logic...

Psychotext
3rd Dec 2003, 20:07
Well, I was complaining about the lack of local localised body damage. Which is not in, and very very annoying.

F3nyx
3rd Dec 2003, 22:08
Originally posted by Dav1000
Yeah. I thought people would stop voting on it after the lead programmer came and stated that there is localized body damage, but I guess it's always hard to stop a mob with logic... Okay... just read "localized body damage" as "relevant and noticeable localized body damage."

And you're right, when the mob has logic, there's no stopping them.


;)

Kerghan
4th Dec 2003, 01:37
I remember back in the day when I was playing through the amazing game called Deus Ex for the second time, and I had this assault rifle, and I increased its bullet capacity to about 50, made it silenced, made it have almost no recoil and full accuracy, and put a lazer on it (I could not put a scope on it but I would have), all for the purpose of shooting 5 shots every 1/3 of a second into someone's skull. Alas, those days are gone. Headshots, why have you abandoned me!!! Alright, technically you can still get headshots in DX:IW, but it takes what??? 5, 7 hits in th head??? 2 or 3 with a shotgun??? Oh yeah, and I seem to remember being able to pick people off bu shooting them in the heart with the sniper too but maybe I'm thinking of a different game...

Dav1000
4th Dec 2003, 03:55
According to the Devs (and that's all I have at the moment...don't get the game 'til tomorrow sadly) you can get instant kills with a sniper rifle head shot, but most weapons will not give instant kills. (Not while unmodified anyway.) Just FYI. You can now return to your regularly scheduled panicking.

Cerpin Taxt
4th Dec 2003, 05:10
Originally posted by Dav1000
According to the Devs (and that's all I have at the moment...don't get the game 'til tomorrow sadly) you can get instant kills with a sniper rifle head shot, but most weapons will not give instant kills. (Not while unmodified anyway.) Just FYI. You can now return to your regularly scheduled panicking.

The developers, ironically, are correct, sir. After having played the game for about 7 hours straight, I can confirm the sniper rifle does indeed deliver one-shot kills. I've done so quite a few times. Silenced that *****, and man, I'm just a killing machine.

Using your 'splatter' weapons on the head won't kill in one shot, but does reduce ammo waste, so it's probably a good idea to focus on the upper-torso.

GrimDanfango
5th Dec 2003, 17:33
Been playing the full game (in 640x480 to keep it smooth on a 2Ghz comp with ti4400 - ouch!!!) and as far as I can tell, the wimpy mako-pistol CAN manage a 2-hit kill IF you play on "Realistic" difficulty... how this is realistic I'm none too sure... but it's better.

"Realistic" according to the .ini settings not only ups enemy damage to you... but give you the maximum damage to enemies... unlike "Hard" which lowers yours to hideous levels and ups theirs... so "Realistic", while having you take even more damage, isn't as hard as "Hard", and is a lot closer to *real* deus ex...

I haven't tried fiddling the .ini setting yet... but I assume its possible to tweak it so that anything can manage a lethal headshot...

GrimDanfango
5th Dec 2003, 17:55
Drat... you can change the ini settings... but it seems some enemies are hard-coded for being 'head-shotable' and some aren't...

So even on the standard realistic setting... some enemies in rooms that have obvious stealth solutions to them will go down with a headshot... but ones that are storming towards you as part of a scripted event will take a good 4 headshots...

Raising the value from 1.5 to 4.0 seems to take *everyone* out with one hit to the head... but for those poor unfortunate hard-coded stealth-kill chappies... at that level even a shot to the toe is instantly fatal... grrr...

Neeeed to get into the workings more... there's only so much .inis can achieve...

Tarantula
9th Dec 2003, 01:29
Originally posted by LoneGhostMoon
look... the pistol is supposted to be very weak but very ammo sufficent i actully the the one hit kills makes the game more stratigic when i was playing the demo i found myself shoting them then swithing the the shotgun while i ran into another room and i shot a smoke bomb and ran out there and through a frag grenade and killed 4 of them. then had to zap one of them to death to make sure they wouldnt shoot me back and i through there dead body in front of the door so the gresel lady couldnt come out until i switched to a frag and trough it through her window and killed her greasel and her. it was great and im tired of people saying it takes away the skill i though it made the game too easy... heck even in halo you can shoot them 5 times in the head before they die unless there using a sniper. and this game isnt tring to be super realistic or anything you can tell by the crazy ragdoll engine i really think its something new and the game is really emerse. though they say the game will only be 18 hours or something it will have great replay value even the creators said so... ive played the demo for 2 hours alreadly. and about the melee weapons they were weak in dues ex 1 too untill you used an agmentation. a key thing with what they have done with this game was put more emphasis on augmentaions and weapons upgrades. by using a level 2 melee augment youll probly be able to kill someone quite fast . and heck theres going to be a sword like the old game! plus if your running low on ammo maybe put a few in there head then go stab them. please stop your crying your making a good game look worse than it really is by playing a tiny demo the full game will give you more than 6 enemys so you wont pay so much attenstion to things like localised damage. PLEASE MY DEUS EX FRIENDS STOP YOUR FUEDS AND BUY THIS GAME. possibly theyll make a better deus ex 3? if they get enough... may next time theyll put alot of things back in and i bet people will complain why its not like the second one and why theres one hit head shots....(if there was one hit head shots what would be the point in upgradeing gun damage and what not????) hope i helped you! have a deus ex good time!:) :D :p ;) :cool:

And how many consoles do you own? And how many FPSs do you play on them as opposed to on the PC?

jungernaut
10th Dec 2003, 04:02
Yes, the sniper is one shot kill on normal enemies. However it only seems to work using the scope (alternative fire) while shooting. I only started using the sniper when I played on realistic, so I don't know about the other settings.

I think damage is still localized somewhat, but good shots are hard to get. When your enemies are holding still, it's much easier to get good, higher damage shots.

Yet the easiest takedowns are just done with cloak and baton. When you hit your enemies they reel from damage and are down before they can shoot you.

Prohass
10th Dec 2003, 11:09
After headshoting many a grunt in Halo, and caping many a newb in CS, it was a shock indeed, I will miss it.

Zem
10th Dec 2003, 15:34
Nice one-sided poll here. From the school of "Have you stopped beating your wife yet" polls? :)

Headshots are definitely in the game. At least I see them all the time on the "Realistic" setting. That said, I think damage is a bit less in DX:IW than DX, but I think that's entirely due to the combination of weapon mods and skills in DX. You could be extremely lethal with a fully-modded pistol at Master skill level.

However, I definitely recall many times having to double-tap an MJ12 trooper with the stealth pistol early in the game, even if he was not alerted to my presence. I get pretty much the same results with a silenced Mako pistol in DX:IW, although I did get a few single-shot headshots on non-alerted enemies in the first part of the game with that pistol.

Damage taken by the player though is seriously reduced from DX's "realistic" difficulty setting. I was one-shotted in DX many times, even by pistol wielding NSF in the first level, if I got sloppy and they saw me before I took them down. In DX:IW, I sometimes survive point-blank shotgun blasts (only sometimes though, and then only barely, but still...)