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View Full Version : [SPOILERS] BO2 connections in Defiance



Morcilla
20th Nov 2003, 04:44
Besides the obvious stuff like Janos's ressurection and capture explained here's a couple of things I noticed:

Not really important, but a lot of the non-combatant humans in the Sarafan Keep in BO2 wore face masks, not completely unlike the ones worn by Hash's cult in Avernus. Although the ones in BO2 were white though.

Nexus Stone makes a little more sense to me now. At least why it would exist. The Hylden fought their war with the Vampires because they resisted the Wheel of Fate, and refused to submit their souls to it. It makes sense that they would try producing artifacts that could protect their souls from this, and that is basically what the Nexus Stone does in terms of disabling the Soul Reaver, it prevents Raziel from consuming the enemy's soul and sending it back to the wheel.

Anything else anyone else noticed?

Rampant
20th Nov 2003, 20:41
Well, actually.

Raziel himself was the connection to the Elder, when he fed upon souls, they went into the belly of the Elder. As for the wraith-blade or Soul Reaver it is unknown if when using it, it feeds the Elder, and therefore the Wheel of Fate. It might, then again it might not, there is no evidence to support either case. Raziel's changing into the wraith-blade, might have cut his link to the Elder. In regard to the Hylden, it is unknown if the murals underneath Avernus spoke true, or were merely an interpretation of events by the Hylden. It is possible that the Hylden's bodies were not immortal, nor their souls, but when they died, somehow their souls refused to join the Wheel of Fate. Thus somehow being reborn in new Hylden bodies, without being eaten or recycled by the Wheel of Fate. Therefore the Elder could not manipulate and control them. It is also possible that the Hylden could see the Elder's form, and thus they posed a danger to him. This may be why if the murals speak true, the Elder wanted them dead.

Ophiel
20th Nov 2003, 21:53
From fighting revanents and the demons and such, you'd think that the Hylden have a pretty firm grasp on spiritual possession. Perhaps when they die their soul leaves it's body and inhabits the closest available host, eventually warping it (which could explain why some later revanents are so twisted) into a form that more closely resembles the classical Hylden design from the forge murals (indeed, some later revenants look like smaller, twisted versions of actual Hylden). Maybe this is why they don't return to the wheel? And if so, I wonder what happened to the Hylden souls that Raziel devoured and returned to the wheel? It's never really explained (or at least, I missed the explaination) what happens to the souls (beyond feeding the Elder God). Are they reborn? Do they just cease to exist? Maybe that question will be answered in a future LoK game?

Rampant
21st Nov 2003, 02:12
It looks like the Hylden spirits transform human bodies into horned abominations. Mortanius was transformed by the Hylden Lord into a demon that looks much like the Fire Demons. This could be an ability gained due to the Hylden spirits possesing Demon Beasts in the Demon Dimension.

Here is a link of what I first mentioned.

http://media.ps2.ign.com/media/536/536027/img_1719348.html

The Hylden looking Revenants that appeared at the end I believe were merely dead Hylden bodies from the big war centuries ago, which the Hylden spirits possesed. Eventually it looks like all the Hylden return to their true bodies in the Demon Dimension and use them to come to this world as shown in Blood Omen 2. Coincidently in Blood Omen 2 the Prison Guardians also had green glowing eyes, they too were likely possessed by the Hylden.

Morcilla
21st Nov 2003, 02:45
Raziel is the wraith blade and the spirit that possesed the Reaver, and his nature is the source of their ability to consume souls. I don't see how being forced into the blade would change anything about what happens when he consumes a soul, as it was never dependent on his form.

I agree about the Hylden looking revenants being Hylden corpses, as there were also ancient vampire corpses (complete with the wing bones like the guardian ghosts and the ninja-turtle claws).

Apocrypha Roxy
21st Nov 2003, 03:40
Has anyone ever considered the other murals?

I think that the murals beneath Avernus are the artistic license by the Hylden to convey their point of view, just as the murals beneath the Pillars and in the Forges in SR2 and in the Citadel in Defiance portray events in the Winged Beings' perspective. So neither can be taken as gospel.

However.

How, then, do we explain the images in SR2 depicting an Ancient Raziel wielding the Reaver blade, when all the time Raziel was never meant to bear the blade, but become imprisoned in it? And then we see the mural in the Citadel that shows not only the double-outcome of the Redeemer and Destroyer, but also Kain with the Reaver as Scion of Balance.

I believe Raziel was the original hero who DID wield the blade during the War between the races. Remember, the sword was never meant to be a soul-devouring weapon. It's Wraith Raziel all along. Raziel is struck down, and is prophecized to return and be their savior.
They're not quite off the mark. He does return as the instrument of their salvation. He IS the Reaver blade. But he is not the one to wield it. Perhaps they thought he would return as the Scion of Balance, who wields the sword.
But then one Ancient got access to a viewing pool/timestreaming chamber (or some artistic inspiration one day) and painted Kain instead of Raziel as the Scion. Something of that sort.
I could be wrong, but that's my take on it.

I don't think the double mural of the Vampire hero falling to the Hylden hero and vice versa refers to Raziel redeeming himself and sacrificing himself at the same time. At least, not exactly.

It refers to Kain and the Hylden Lord.

Here's how it relates to BO2: Kain, with the assistance of the now-living Vorador, becomes the general of a vampire army, conquering most of Nosgoth as they make their way south to Meridian. He is the Vampire hero, bearing the Reaver blade.
We've got the Hylden/Sarafan Lord, who has revived the Order of the Sarafan. He is the Hylden hero, with flaming eyes and a fiery sword (rewatch the BO2 intro if you don't recall).

The Hylden Lord strikes Kain down in battle. Kain falls, is believed to be dead for 200 years. Kain awakes after said period of time, and assists the Cabal in taking down the Sarafan and the Hylden Lord. Come the end of BO2, Kain and the Sarafan Lord duke it out. We all know what happens with Janos and the whole she-bang. But in the end, Kain kicks his butt, Nosgoth Royalty-style, and strikes him down. The Hylden hero falls, the Vampire Champion wins.

The double outcome proves true in both scenarios.

Check and Mate.

Besides, the Hylden were deluded in thinking Raziel was their prophecized hero. No one in their right mind thinks their champion is the soul-stealing entity in the blade that spelled their destruction.

The Squid is pulling the strings, and everyone is grasping for the same pawn on the board: Raziel. Because if they can control Raziel, they win the game. It's harder than it sounds because Raziel is the only one who truly has Free Will. And it is this Free Will that makes him decide to become devoured by the blade and become the Weapon of Salvation for Nosgoth. So now the Scion of Balance (Kain) wields the Weapon of Salvation (Raziel); and Prophecy is set in motion.
But now the game takes another turn. No more paradoxes are needed (as they were in SR2) because the board is cleared for another round. The coin has been tossed and has hit the ground, but it is still turning.
What side it lands on, we have yet to find out.


Raziel is coming back in the next game...
...
...
... as the sword. :p


Holy Squid! I forgot the spoiler tags! EEP!:eek:

kakarot
21st Nov 2003, 04:47
I think all of you make valid points. I do think Raziel was a little bit of everything at one time.

The murals outside the Citadel state that the Vampires would have 2 saviors. One, would fall to the Hylden Champion (Raziel falls to Hash/Janos at the Citadel). The Second, would defeat the Hylden Champ (Kain defeats the Sarafan Lord) and restore balance to Nosgoth. We all know now that the blade must be purified for balance to be restored. Raziel has purified the wraith, the blade, and Kain all in one shot (see dramatic cut scene for details) giving Kain an opportunity to change the fate of Nosgoth.

Reasons for being the "would be" Hylden Champ. 1) Raz is the only one able to destroy Kain 2) Able to Unlock the pillars (which I think he did by the way while in the spirit forge) 3) Has yet to uncover all of Nosgoth's secrets..

After returning from the Spirit Forge... I noticed that the Hylden revenants were now strong enough to emerge in their original bodies (as pictured in the murals). The winged revenants we saw through out the game were not ancient vampire corpses. They were the ancient corpses of the Hylden from the great war.

I cant think right now..

Morcilla
21st Nov 2003, 05:20
Originally posted by Apocrypha Roxy
Has anyone ever considered the other murals?

I think that the murals beneath Avernus are the artistic license by the Hylden to convey their point of view, just as the murals beneath the Pillars and in the Forges in SR2 and in the Citadel in Defiance portray events in the Winged Beings' perspective. So neither can be taken as gospel.

However.

How, then, do we explain the images in SR2 depicting an Ancient Raziel wielding the Reaver blade, when all the time Raziel was never meant to bear the blade, but become imprisoned in it? And then we see the mural in the Citadel that shows not only the double-outcome of the Redeemer and Destroyer, but also Kain with the Reaver as Scion of Balance.

I believe Raziel was the original hero who DID wield the blade during the War between the races. Remember, the sword was never meant to be a soul-devouring weapon. It's Wraith Raziel all along. Raziel is struck down, and is prophecized to return and be their savior.
They're not quite off the mark. He does return as the instrument of their salvation. He IS the Reaver blade. But he is not the one to wield it. Perhaps they thought he would return as the Scion of Balance, who wields the sword.
But then one Ancient got access to a viewing pool/timestreaming chamber (or some artistic inspiration one day) and painted Kain instead of Raziel as the Scion. Something of that sort.
I could be wrong, but that's my take on it.



The Reaver didn't exist during the war. It was forged by Vorador and enchanted with the vampiric curse, and both kind of depend on the Vampires already having their blood curse, which didn't come until after the war. The Reaver was made after the binding. And the Reaver was made to be used by the Vampire hero (Raziel) and to destroy the Hylden hero(Raziel), and if you played SR2 then you know that was how it was supposed to happen. The 2 champions on the murals in the citadel are the Vampire & Hylden champions, not 2 Vampire champions. Raziel is the Hylden champion, and it's made obvious by the fact that the vampires made a sword specifically to capture his immortal unbound soul.

And Raziel has done nothing to the pillars. No unlocking, no nothing. The pillars collapsed because of young Kain. That's it.

There was more than one kind of winged revenant, and the less decorative variety were vampire corpses. The size of their wings and their hands and feet are very different from the Hylden and it's a dead give away if you actually bother to look.

Cerpo
21st Nov 2003, 18:16
janos
he's still alive
and possessed
he's the hylden champion
but looks like a vampire still
thus the mural
kain is redeemer, raziel is destroyer
kain looked like the hylden guy kindof in that he isn't blue and all :)
so raziel sticks kain then thrusts him into the hylden world
mural 1
then kain fights the possessed janos in the next game
mural 2
both fates being still one fate
but although we believed them the same battle..
it was actually two


on a secondary note..
I prefered the kain jumping from bo2
I hope they go back to that
infact I hope that most of the kain powers are reverted to this previous format
and I also hope that in the next game as well kain is all the more powerful
the enemies should also be more indestructable
and it should require more puzzle solving than sword bashing to slay them
ie: most of the bosses from sr1

you should also be able to travel all over the world and return to older places with new powers to retrieve powerups and such, much like in sr1
and it would be cool if kain grew wings like those of janos and/or learned to enter the spectral realm talking to the sword version of raziel would be neat too

edited when I noticed redundant statement

Rampant
21st Nov 2003, 20:23
Here are some theories I have of what happens in Blood Omen 2 and even afterward. It would be awesome, if this occurred.

Vorador is brought back to life. The ultimate surprise is that he is brought back to life by the Elder!!! The Hylden return, but the older Kain and the Seer unite to defeat them, in order to restore their races as one. The older Kain, now bearing the Spirit wraith-blade reaver within him, uses it, along with the Heart of Darkness to bring Raziel back as an Ancient. Kain sacrifices his life to heal the Pillars and expose the Elder to all. Raziel returns as an Ancient and uses the physical Soul Reaver to kill the Elder once and for all. Thus Raziel and the Seer create a new race.

Apocrypha Roxy
22nd Nov 2003, 04:36
Morcilla:


The Reaver didn't exist during the war. It was forged by Vorador and enchanted with the vampiric curse, and both kind of depend on the Vampires already having their blood curse, which didn't come until after the war. The Reaver was made after the binding. And the Reaver was made to be used by the Vampire hero (Raziel) and to destroy the Hylden hero(Raziel), and if you played SR2 then you know that was how it was supposed to happen. The 2 champions on the murals in the citadel are the Vampire & Hylden champions, not 2 Vampire champions. Raziel is the Hylden champion, and it's made obvious by the fact that the vampires made a sword specifically to capture his immortal unbound soul.

I've played Soul Reaver 2. PC and PS2. 30+ times and counting. Know it like the back of my hand.
Have YOU played SR2? BO2?

How would you know that it didn't exist during the war? Or at least toward the end of the war? Do you see the murals in SR2 depicting a beatified Winged Raz and beatified Reaver blade? Do you see the murals in Defiance with the hybrid outcome between the two heroes? The Vampire hero has the Reaver. In one mural, he strikes down the Hylden hero with the blade. It only makes sense that it was around.
The Reaver was made during the Pillars being erected. It was forged simultaneously with the Binding of the Guardians. Vorador makes it when he is still human. He is turned after the curse is set upon the Vampires. Keep in mind they had no knowledge of the curse. This was their plan to guard Nosgoth from the Hylden popping in, again. The curse altered the turn of events, instead of new Guardian vampires being born; you have a sterile race. Thus the curse is passed to humans, continuing the species.
AFTER THE BANISHMENT.
You cannot have a lock if the key has not been planned out. They were most likely forged simultaneously. There's no use having a combination lock if you can just turn the dial any which way (instead of a set of numbers) and pop it open, right?
And the bloodthirst never existed before the curse. The Winged Beings (who are now called Vampires, since that's what they became) placed Vampirism on the Reaver itself, enchanting it to drain their enemies of their life blood. The Hylden at the time of their banishment take the magic of the Blade, and throw it back in the Ancient's faces. They get a taste of their own medicine, so to speak.

Never said it was 2 vampire champions...

Raziel is NOT the Hylden champion. Raziel is the sentient being in the Reaver blade that the Scion of Balance wields to save Nosgoth. The Reaver was never meant to be a soul-devouring weapon, as Raz stated at the end of SR2. It was always him, his twinned soul, and its ravenous hunger. That's it. The Reaver is a vampiric blade that devours BLOOD, and that's all it was enchanted for. No soul-stealing. That's Raziel's job. He and he alone.