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View Full Version : More bad AI news. This gamer braces himself for the worst.



IconoclastDX
20th Nov 2003, 00:50
A reviewer tries to test some of the games bounderies and comes up disapointed.

From this article (http://www.1up.com/article2/0,4364,1388819,00.asp)


...but after he grants me access to the VIP lounge, which is ironically just before I murder him, the very important freak up there won't seem to mind that I've "energy sworded" every person at the bar to death, including his comrade the proprietor. Upset that he's not upset, I'll kill the freaky frogman.

This review really worries me. Its looking like the same MAJOR faults of DX1 are coming back again. The fact that you could kill maim, beat or steal from anyone with practically ZERO consequences was unbelieveibly disappointing in the first DX1. If they tried to fix just ONE mistake of DX1, it should have been this! Im reminded of a Tom Chicks rant of DX1 and pray that its not revisited. Heres a peek if youve not read it.


Imagine a movie where the boom consistently dips into the frame, the actors routinely screw up and start their lines over, and someone keeps bumping the camera. Imagine reading a book where every other sentence is a disclaimer in capital letters: "It was the best of times, THIS IS ONLY A BOOK, it was the worst of times, THIS IS ONLY A BOOK..." Deus Ex consistently screams THIS IS ONLY A GAME. And not a very good one at that.
for example...

The most severe problem with Deus Ex is the AI. To evade enemies who have magically sighted you, just duck behind the lip of a doorway. Step into a toilet stall where the AI isn't scripted to open the door. Duck into a pool of water where the AI can't look down very far. Wait about ten seconds and they'll go away, cheerfully stepping over the bodies of dead characters as if they were piles of laundry. It's easy enough for the guards in Deus Ex to see you, but they have a real problem with commitment -- they take to heart the old adage 'out of sight, out of mind'. Or perhaps the world of Deus Ex is just populated with sharp-eyed sentries sadly afflicted with Alzheimer's.
or...

Snatch equipment from people's bedrooms and offices -- they won't mind. Take the pistol from the top drawer of your boss' desk while he's actually sitting there or pinch the shotgun and the money from behind the bar while the bartender looks on. Gather up all the equipment just lying around in the world, strewn like Easter eggs left out for preschoolers: lockpicks in the street, multitools placed on the shelves of tenement buildings, nanokeys in sewer pipes, and perfectly good medkits behind the trash cans in public restrooms.

To avoid uneccessary dissension, I am perfectly aware that the 1up reviewer had an overall positive tilt. The point here is to identify a possible shortcomming of the game that is very important to ME. For MYSELF, and probably any others, this kind of game reaction is very egregious and disimmersive. So much so that we want to POST about it and see what OTHERS think. That cool with everyone?

Lawnboy?? You got any good quotes that will belay my fears?

Esquire
20th Nov 2003, 01:11
Originally posted by IconoclastDX
....

Hilarious! it weren't super funny, but still, it made me smile.
all games have their ****ups. really, we can't expect perfection.

anywho, just try to ignore them bad reviews and play DXIW not getting yourself into crazy situations like that.

"AI can't look down very far. Wait about ten seconds and they'll go away, cheerfully stepping over the bodies of dead characters as if they were piles of laundry. It's easy enough for the guards in Deus Ex to see you, but they have a real problem with commitment " = not hilarious, but still, very amusing.

Sci
20th Nov 2003, 01:14
I'm not as quick to judge flaws in the AI because, from what I hear, AI coding is very difficult and time-consuming. Still, it would be nice if they put in the extra effort to make the AI really stand out among the other games.

F3nyx
20th Nov 2003, 01:20
The thing about the DX series is that they're brilliant in enough ways to make up for their mediocrity in other areas. I wouldn't call this "bad news," really. Yes, awesome AI would be... well, awesome. But compared to some other concerns (*ahem*), AI is a much harder problem to solve.

PointlesS
20th Nov 2003, 01:45
that was only one quirk that he came accross...since the game has quite a few levels perhaps everyone else in the game has a better ai script than that one character? perhaps the mapper forgot about that one character to make him linked to other characters in the game? perhaps this is an older build of the game and some of the ai isn't complete yet? there's just too many variables to consider...they know that ai was one of the worst things in the first one and juding from all the interviews...they really made a huge effort to fix that...they say that the enemy will remember if something moved while they were gone...or glass broken or whatever...

Scilent Bob
20th Nov 2003, 02:20
Hey, PointlesS has a point. They said they made levels smaller right? Well that was probably part of the solution for AI not knowing where to search for you or losing you in the extreamly expancive levels. They may have done that in an attempt to have the AI anticipate your moves, which mean they might look behind the curtains with boots sticking out the bottom.
But I do hope the AI could at least seem to have a room tempature IQ in dx2.

AlteredGlyph
20th Nov 2003, 04:40
Well, from what I've heard, the AI is excellent in DX2. Remember that the previewer is playing a pre-release version, and that it's not a big, big, problem that's super-hard to fix. That specific problem will very probably be fixed by the final release. If you want confirmation of that, go to the IS forums and ask the developers.

MR X
20th Nov 2003, 05:07
Beside's, if the AI was TOO smart, it would limit the fun. I mean, imagine if you made ONE sound, and then the enemy guards emmediatly corner you (judging where you are from where the sound came from, even if they cannot see you), and while the assualt guards hails you with cover fire the snipers are finding a good place to line up thier shot, while a handful of other guards circle inwards, and 2 more are coming up through the vent to cut you off...

wait...that sounds pretty damn cool :/

Sci
20th Nov 2003, 05:09
make sure you make the distinction between smart and superhuman. Smart AI enemies work as a team and can search thourghouly in a variety of locations, such as those in MGS2. Superhuman AI enemies can shoot you in the eye with a machine gun at 50 feet and have eyes like a hawk, such as those in the sniper level of MOHAA. I mean, who DIDN'T cheat their way through that level?

HOTLEAD
20th Nov 2003, 05:26
I didnt but i had to replace my monitor after i put my fist through it.

Sylvester Ink
20th Nov 2003, 06:21
Well, I didn't like that preview too much anyway. The previewer, excited as he was, complained about some VERY small factors in the game. And it was only a prerelease, as was said.

Plus, the previewer played through in a more unconventional way. So maybe IS was ready if you didn't try to kill anyone. So IS was ready if you tried to kill EVERYONE. Maybe they didn't realize that you would kill everyone AFTER you talked to them. (Although it seems pretty unlikely.)

Most of his gripes were pretty minor anyway. DX1 had a LOT more flaws anyway, and we loved it despite those flaws. I mean, the AI was hardly spectacular, the graphics were . . . meh, and there was always good old inventory tetris.

Why worry about the game? If DXIW has flaws, we will probably still love it like DX1. If it doesn't, so much the better. If it sux, then oh well. There will always be other games. And the developers will know what to fix in DX3.

Gartz
20th Nov 2003, 06:44
The guy in the bar he describes as a "frogman" must be an Omar. Especially since the guy mentions "frogman" as selling him things. How do you know he would react to the owner getting killed? The guy assumes the "frogman" would protect the club manager or even care. That's an assumption we will have to find out for sure in December.

IconoclastDX
20th Nov 2003, 06:52
As long as guards are smart enough to climb into vents after me ill be fine. It was the opitomy of unrealism to be able to jump out of a vent, cap a guy and jump back in, the whole time the guards (who saw me go back in) running around in circles in front of teh vent saying "whered he go?"

comreak
20th Nov 2003, 07:06
Originally posted by IconoclastDX
As long as guards are smart enough to climb into vents after me ill be fine. It was the opitomy of unrealism to be able to jump out of a vent, cap a guy and jump back in, the whole time the guards (who saw me go back in) running around in circles in front of teh vent saying "whered he go?"

What really *****ed me of was when you'd be walking around in a room adjacent to some guards and they would immediatly know it was you. Everybody makes the same walking sounds. How do they know it's not one of their comrades walking around?

PointlesS
20th Nov 2003, 07:33
Originally posted by IconoclastDX
As long as guards are smart enough to climb into vents after me ill be fine.
I hope not...that'd be kinda freaky...turn around and your flashlight sheds some light on some guy with glowing eyes crawling at you...however maybe not crawl into the vent to go after you...but more like camp at the vent enterance so when you come out you'll be shot at immediately...or at least change their path routes to keep a closer eye on the vents...

Le`Sauveur`De`Ces`Dames
20th Nov 2003, 10:00
garts has a good point.

I would add one :

how would the frogman KNOW you killed his boss?
I think we can assume that had he been there, he would have tried to shoot you. Like in DX1, by the way : any hostile move would have erverone aware of it IN THE ROOM, and maybe those who are close enough to hear them shout. if the frogman is the doorman of a nightclub, we can safely assume that he is in a soundproof room.

I would be surprised he he KNEW you killed everyone.

about the fact he doesn't have the biomods when you kill him, well, I think he doesn't walk around with it. they must be in a hidden safe not far...

Five.Pointe.O
20th Nov 2003, 12:31
An invisible safe... for an invisible war.

Amorpheus
20th Nov 2003, 12:59
Some shortcomings in AI for a game like this are almost to be expected. This isn't a linear play-n-shelf shooter where you'd expect the AI to react to everything you can do: shooting them.