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View Full Version : Tomb Raider is dead, but Lara Croft lives!!



Godfather
17th Nov 2003, 21:12
Quite simple: I have only one question to ask.

After having played TRAOD, how do you feel about the entire Tomb Raider-saga?

For me, Tomb Raider is dead. The first five games are extremely fun, fantastic instant-classic games that make you fall in love with Lara Croft and everything that happens around her as soon as you start playing the games.

TRAOD changed everything that was great about the original Tomb Raider-games and unfortunately it was the worst thing they could have done. Lara Croft had become a totally different person; both in movements as well as in the world around her. And the action, suspense and adventure which were standard ingredients in TRI-V had gone away for some strange, stupid reason.

Personally, I will always play:

* Tomb Raider
* Tomb Raider 2
* Tomb Raider 3
* Tomb Raider: The Last Revelation
* Tomb Raider: Chronicles

but I have already forgotten about TRAOD since I believe it is NOT a part of the previous 5 masterpieces. To me, AOD is a game which features a wanna-be Lara Croft-lookalike in a totally different world than anytime before in any Tomb Raider-game.

I'm planning on playing custom-games after having played/finished the "big 5", but I won't ever touch anything future-Tomb Raider-stuff anymore coz I simply believe it's utter crap.

Tomb Raider is dead!!!
But Lara Croft has survived and lives ... LIVES!!!!
But she's not in action/adventure anymore as much as before (from time to time another short adventure which is of course a custom game)

You're free to comment, give hints or even protest on this, but I would like to know how anybody feels regarding the Tomb Raider-saga today! Has it ended with AOD or is it still alive & kicking? You know how I feel so don't try to convince me otherwise. My mind has been set. I'm just interested in other people's opinions.

Thanks!

Bye for now

EddyBones
17th Nov 2003, 22:47
It's still part of the TR saga any way you look at it.

JohnRaider
18th Nov 2003, 13:39
Tomb Raider: AOD was developed by CORE and it will always remain part of the tomb raider saga.

eurisko
18th Nov 2003, 14:00
Tomb Raider is very much alive.

It's still a Core game, it's still got Lara in it, so yes that makes it part of the TR franchise.

But even more than that, I feel it really has got the TR essence in it.

So hell yeah, it more than qualifies for the TR tag, imo.

I won't ever touch anything future-Tomb Raider-stuff anymore coz I simply believe it's utter crap.
Yes, I'm well aware that this is your opinion and I'm not trying to change it in anyway, so don't annoy me by accusing me of doing that. What I am doing, however, is asking you how you could possibly know all future TR releases will be "utter crap"? I'm interested in the thought processes that lead you to deduce that all up-coming TR releases are crap? Why would an intelligent person make such a wild generalisation? Have you got a time machine tucked away somewhere and have seen something the rest of us haven't? I don't understand such arrogance/ignorance/generalisation ideologies, I guess.

RebeL_fARmeR
18th Nov 2003, 16:18
I don't like this new hostile, hateful Lara... I mean, cast your mind back to Tomb Raider 1, Lara was polite and friendly and stuff, now she's downright wicked (I mean that in a negative way)

I see it like this: Lara was ORIGINALLY intended to be a loving, friendly person. so that to me is the REAL Lara, the TRUE Lara, Lara as she was meant to be.
Lara was introduced as THAT kind of friendly person, so therefore, the true Lara Croft can be nothing other than that.

AoD though, I liked it but it didn't make me jump up and down clapping my hands in joy. The control system was a pain in the rear and Lara was really sinister and evil. I still see it as another addition to the Tomb Raider legacy but I don't accept this new Lara in terms of character. Sure, she LOOKS like Lara but she just doesn't have Lara's personality.

I care more about the quality of Lara than the quality of the game!

Glider
18th Nov 2003, 23:47
Originally posted by eurisko
.......... What I am doing, however, is asking you how you could possibly know all future TR releases will be "utter crap"? I'm interested in the thought processes that lead you to deduce that all up-coming TR releases are crap? Why would an intelligent person make such a wild generalisation? Have you got a time machine tucked away somewhere and have seen something the rest of us haven't? I don't understand such arrogance/ignorance/generalisation ideologies, I guess.

Well I don't have any time machine, but I can fairly safely predict that as long as Eidos continues to pressure Core Design into releasing a Tomb Raider game before it is ready, the quality of the games will continue on their long slide downhill.

I tend to agree with the reviewers nowadays. In the past I did not, but now with the experience of having sampled far more games, I agree with the ratings that the series has gotten over the years. If you look them up you will see a gradual slide downhill of the ratings numbers from excellent for TR1 to continually lower as the series progressed.
TR1 and TR2 appear to have been finished games, but TR3 certainly was not, as it was Core's first release that was full of bugs. I had to find a cure on my own for TR3's problems. TR4 would not even run on my (more than adaquate) system, and I had to wait a year for a member to post the solution, (which incidently was the cure for missing sounds in TR3 as well) before I could play it. TR5 is notorious for its bug filled levels, and now AOD is the new low. All four of these games suffered from being released before their time, the latest as you probably know, being AOD rushed out to coincide with the second TR movie's release.

So unless Eidos adopts a "when it's done" attitude, future releases of the games are going to be bad too.
Going by the sales of the games despite all their flaws; it doesn't seem likely that Eidos will be changing their attitude any time soon.:rolleyes: :(

eurisko
19th Nov 2003, 12:53
I can fairly safely predict that as long as Eidos continues to pressure Core Design into releasing a Tomb Raider game before it is ready, the quality of the games will continue on their long slide downhill.
Have you been living under one of those heavy, hard, dirty things? Core Design no longer develops Tomb Raider; Crystal Dynamics has been given the development rights. And while we're on the subject, I'm sure Eidos didn't just emerge out of the woodwork one day and demanded a game ready for tomorrow. Core Design would have known the deadline. They failed to deliver. Eidos relaxed the due date and still they didn't get it done on time. I'm not ragging on Core here because I do love that company and I wish them all the best, but it's not fair to just finger Eidos for all the blame.

Going by the sales of the games despite all their flaws
You've hit upon a concern that plagues the entire games industry, not just Eidos/Core Design/Crystal Dynamics. Given the sheer magnitude of differing technical specifications of every single machine that comes within cooee of a game these days, it's somewhat inevitable that some people's boxes don't work (at all vs properly) with certain games. It sucks and it's a very real problem, but it's not one confined to Eidos' releases, unfortunatley (Hidden & Dangerous anyone?). Just for clarification, I'm not actually arguing with you - if anything, I'm agreeing. I'm just expanding on your original point.

Rebel Farmer, you have a good point. However, I do believe this "new" Lara is still Lara, given that she's undergone an evolution - the "new" Lara is just an evolved Lara, adapting (as we all know she does so well :) ) to her new situation. So that's why I reckon she's still Lara. She evolved in accordance with her surroundings/situation. She started out sweet, but sweet ain't gonna cut it in her current situation :) I'm not trying to change your mind or argue, I'm just expanding on my original point. Your point is very valid and is quite interesting :)

RebeL_fARmeR
19th Nov 2003, 13:30
Rebel Farmer, you have a good point. However, I do believe this "new" Lara is still Lara, given that she's undergone an evolution - the "new" Lara is just an evolved Lara, adapting (as we all know she does so well :) ) to her new situation. So that's why I reckon she's still Lara. She evolved in accordance with her surroundings/situation. She started out sweet, but sweet ain't gonna cut it in her current situation :) I'm not trying to change your mind or argue, I'm just expanding on my original point. Your point is very valid and is quite interesting :) [/B]

Of course AoD Lara is an Evolved Lara... it's just that this "evolved Lara" just isn't the same, she's so different from the original Lara that she's almost like a new person. I don't think this anger and hostility within Lara makes her seem more "dark" or "serious", it makes her seem like a hateful, angry person... and trust me, I have to work with a few people like that and it ain't much fun I can tell you...

eurisko
19th Nov 2003, 16:08
I didn't make my point clearly :( I apologise.

What I actually meant (let's see if I can get it right this time) is that I know it's a different Lara, but she now has a history, and it's that history that I'm responding to when I refer to the fact that she may have changed, but she's still the same.

Confused yet? I am :confused:

and trust me ~snip~
No thank you, I will not. I do not need to. I already know.

/me bows

:)

RebeL_fARmeR
19th Nov 2003, 16:21
Ah, gotcha!!! ;)

Glider
22nd Nov 2003, 05:49
Originally posted by eurisko

Have you been living under one of those heavy, hard, dirty things? .





:D :D :D
I guess I have. I've been away from the Tomb Raider scene for quite a while. I moved on to other things, and basically have just dropped by for a short visit. ;)


Core Design no longer develops Tomb Raider; Crystal Dynamics has been given the development rights. And while we're on the subject, I'm sure Eidos didn't just emerge out of the woodwork one day and demanded a game ready for tomorrow. Core Design would have known the deadline. They failed to deliver. Eidos relaxed the due date and still they didn't get it done on time. I'm not ragging on Core here because I do love that company and I wish them all the best, but it's not fair to just finger Eidos for all the blame.

I didn't know that this Crystal Dynamics company had taken over; and at the time I posted I had forgotten that Eidos bought out Core Design a few years ago. So Lara is fully theirs to do with as they see fit. What a shame.
And going by everything that was said in here when AOD came out, I won't be buying that game until the price drops big time. In the mean time Eidos could do the right thing and finish the game via patches, but I won't hold my breath.

This will make two TR releases I've missed. Chronicles, because I couldn't get my hands on a copy despite my best efforts. (although if I ever find it in a bargain bin, I'll risk the many bugs and pick up a copy) And now I will miss AOD for the above reasons. So long Eidos! :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Jewell
24th Nov 2003, 23:33
Originally posted by RebeL_fARmeR
Of course AoD Lara is an Evolved Lara... it's just that this "evolved Lara" just isn't the same, she's so different from the original Lara that she's almost like a new person. I don't think this anger and hostility within Lara makes her seem more "dark" or "serious", it makes her seem like a hateful, angry person...

I prefer to think of it as a "bump in the road" in her incredibly adventurous life. I'd like to think that after this ordeal is over she will return to her old self.

eurisko
27th Nov 2003, 16:46
I prefer to think of it as a "bump in the road" in her incredibly adventurous life. I'd like to think that after this ordeal is over she will return to her old self.
Well, I can't say for sure because I don't work for Crystal Dynamics, but if the Darkness trilogy of games is still on the board, then this is what will happen. It was what was always supposed to happen, anyway.

WesternWhiteWolf
28th Nov 2003, 17:27
IMO, I liked AOD, so therefore the Tomb Raider series is alive and well to me. AOD wasn't the best it could be, but hopefully Crystal Dynamics will do a better job.

AndrewIII
28th Nov 2003, 21:03
Godfather, I agree with that Tomb Raider is dead. In fact, it died after the original,which is sad for a once highly praised game.



Yes, I'm well aware that this is your opinion and I'm not trying to change it in anyway, so don't annoy me by accusing me of doing that. What I am doing, however, is asking you how you could possibly know all future TR releases will be "utter crap"? I'm interested in the thought processes that lead you to deduce that all up-coming TR releases are crap? Why would an intelligent person make such a wild generalisation? Have you got a time machine tucked away somewhere and have seen something the rest of us haven't? I don't understand such arrogance/ignorance/generalisation ideologies, I guess.


Well think about it, despite many promises that the games would improve, haven't been one straight sign that the series improved or going to improve,thats why he said its utter crap. It dosen't take a genious to know that.

Right now, I see Crystal D's effort to turn around the series as being a failure,especially since they haven't put out a descent game to date(the only good games from them happend to LoK:SR and SR 2. Everything from Blood Omen 2 sucked hard, even Defiance and Whiplash).

eurisko
18th Dec 2003, 00:36
Well think about it, despite many promises that the games would improve, haven't been one straight sign that the series improved or going to improve
Well, that's in accordance with your opinion that the game franchise died after the first one. My opinion is, however, that the franchise is still very much alive. I'm happy with the TR games. I don't need any sign of improvement because I'm happy already :) Therefore, I don't need promises that the games would improve - I am already satisfied with them. This is a fair statement in accordance with your opinion, but not every single person here holds to that same opinion. You might be waiting for improvements; I am simply waiting for the next game :)

thats why he said its utter crap
Yes, to Godfather and yourself and others, the TR franchise is completely, absolutely, and entirely crap. But that is not so for everyone. Some people out there may indeed feel that the TR series is completely, absolutely and entirely crap from the get-go. That's fine. That's their opinion and they're welcome to have it and to share it. But not everyone feels that way. And hey, maybe Crystal Dynamics will blow you all out of the water with the next installment. Maybe TR will go into a hole and die. Who knows? Nobody knows yet because nobody has any way of knowing exactly what the next release will be like. That was my initial point. So what, even if past releases haven't lived up to everyone's expectations? It's still not fair and it still does not make sense (to my mind) to tar all future releases with the same brush.

Especially given the amount of change this game has seen for development of the new release. I don't feel it's the same playing field as before, simply because it's not the same development house that's bringing it to us. Crystal Dynamics haven't brought us a TR game before. Sure, it's fine to feel that Core stuffed up all along the line and never delivered another decent TR game, but it's not Core doing it anymore. It's a different developer. If Crystal Dynamics have never brought us a TR game, how can we know if it will just automatically be crap? We can't automatically know anything about it because they've never serviced us with a TR game. Right now, in these embryonic stages, we can't know either way for sure.

It might be great; it might fail. Who yet knows? Core had a past history and track record with TR games; Crystal Dynamics does not.

especially since they haven't put out a descent game to date
Well, that just goes to what I said - CD haven't brought us a Tomb Raider game yet. We don't have any idea what they can or can't do with respects to Tomb Raider. Yet.

We'll have to wait until we start hearing about trickles about storyline, settings, technical developments etc etc. Then we will start to get a more accurate idea of Crystal Dynamic's direction.

It doesn't take a genius to know that ;)

Have I explained myself so that everyone fully understands me this time?

Solange
26th Dec 2003, 11:05
Originally posted by eurisko
Have I explained myself so that everyone fully understands me this time?
Perfectly well! :D

All kidding aside, that was very well put! :)

EddyBones
26th Dec 2003, 18:08
Originally posted by AndrewIII
Godfather, I agree with that Tomb Raider is dead. In fact, it died after the original,which is sad for a once highly praised game.


Well that's bs. TR2 was awesome, 3 was even better, Last Rev. was amazing... Maybe it went downhill after that, but not right after the original.

Jewell
26th Dec 2003, 20:49
Originally posted by Gandalf the Gray
Well that's bs. TR2 was awesome, 3 was even better, Last Rev. was amazing... Maybe it went downhill after that, but not right after the original.


I agree. Particularly- TR4 was amazing; it will be one of my all time favorite TR games.

The Godfather
1st Jan 2004, 14:29
I think Tomb Raider I - V are all very good; it was AOD that changed it all and destroyed the saga. Maybe for the better ... I was looking for a way to quit playing videogames that constantly demanded upgrading your PC and therefore claiming lots of money ... it's an expensive business playing videogames especially when one wants to keep up with the latest games. I will always play/enjoy Tomb Raider-games, but for me there's no future in Tomb Raider. Besides: why SHOULD there be a future when the ending of TRIV is a plain, perfect one to end the series? (and TRV as a special remembrance of whom she truly was ... but she isn't dead, coz I'm looking forward to playing custom games, so ... there you go!)

Bye for now

jripoll
20th Feb 2004, 01:04
Well AOD was part of the TR series but Lara was not the friendly lara we all know. That Lara may make a comeback though just keep your hopes up for TR 7. Especially since TR 7 will be developed by a new comapny. Maby Core just lost their touch, time to move on. For me AOD killed TR. I will always say Lara died in TR 4 and if they make a better TR they must go back to the old ways none of this "eveil Lara" Lara is suppose to be nice!

thanhkim
20th Feb 2004, 17:28
In regards to aod I thought adrian smith said how we have to bring Lara back or something like that so like you guys I hoping she will be nicer. Also on the other hand if you went through what she did I think you'd get an attitude problem. She is a good friendly character in the movies so why not in the game. I liked Lara being sweet and friendly better and she had more humor in the old games. AOD was incomplete game so I hope cd will do a better job.

BlueSkiesXXV
24th Feb 2004, 15:48
Whether anyone likes it or not TR 6 is just as much part of the TR series as parts 1>5.

Lara was not particularly 'friendly' in 1>5 and not particularly 'unfriendly' in part 6, but does it matter???

However, I agree that TR 6 was not a scratch on the previous installments. Let's hope Tomb Raider is back on form in the next one.

I liked the graphics, sound and atmosphere in TR 6, but what I did not like was the bugs or controls. As we all know, it was not really finished.
At the time I enjoyed it, but looking back and comparing it to other modern games (+ the previous TR titles) it just does not reach the same dizzy levels of wonder :)

I loved the control that you had in TR 1-5.
You could really put her anywhere and always felt in total control.
You could do a back-flip, side-flip and continue to shoot at the enemies. The long jump/short jump worked perfectly.
The controls in general just seemed to work.

Core tried something new for TR 6, but it just did not work.

Anyway, Tomb Raider is stilll alive and kicking, well, I hope so.
Let's hope we here some official news regarding the next installment before the year is out.