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View Full Version : Official Defiance Reviews Thread **SPOILERS**



Chris@Crystal
12th Nov 2003, 19:11
Hey there,
I just wanted to start a Legacy of Kain: Defiance Reviews thread for all of you that have the game so far. Let us know what you think of it so far and how far you are in the game.

Please make sure to make use of the SPOILER vB code as not to spoil the game and story to others not as lucky to have the game yet.

Vae Victus! ;)

~Chris

Zagreus
12th Nov 2003, 20:43
The new camera angle is a real change from the other games.
I like it because it is harder to get lost in rooms that have a symetry about them, and you can see more action, but I prefer the older style of the camera following the character.

Overall The game is what I have been hoping for.

I have just started the chapter where kain gets to the pillars.

I really don't know if that is even really a spoiler, but C.Y.A.

DemonicThrall
13th Nov 2003, 03:16
Not so sure about the new camer but I'll get used to it. That aside this game rocks thanks to all for your hard work. :D

VoRaDoR
13th Nov 2003, 03:42
Originally posted by Chris@Crystal
Hey there,
I just wanted to start a Legacy of Kain: Defiance Reviews thread for all of you that have the game so far. Let us know what you think of it so far and how far you are in the game.

Please make sure to make use of the SPOILER vB code as not to spoil the game and story to others not as lucky to have the game yet.

Vae Victus! ;)

~Chris
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thats very considerate of you Chris! I thought I just check this Thread. I know I shouldn't be here postin messages. I'm a PAL Gamer :( You wont see my name here in this Thread again. But just wanted to thank you for clarifying

"Please make sure to make use of the SPOILER vB code as not to spoil the game and story to others not as lucky to have the game yet" Very kind Thank you..

Jedilvr
13th Nov 2003, 03:43
I have to agree about the camera it's the only thing that's bugging me about the game. I need it in back of the character so I can center myself for a jump.
I've been at the Sarafan Era Pillars with Kain for about a half hour because I can't land a jump to a ledge because a tree is in the way of my view.
Other than that the game rocks.

Sarah
13th Nov 2003, 05:58
Enjoying everything about it! Used up all my creativity posting my rate&review over at Gamespot, but what little shreds I have left say...
"The new gameplay and combat is incredibly intuitive and fun! No urges to just jump&run over opponents!"
"I'm enjoying the new camera-yes, it took an adjustment period, but it really is very nice... at least in this stage of the game."
Overall-a game that will appeal to casual gamers and um, enthusiastic fans.



And my last comments: Yay Ben and Umah, and Willow and all them! Made it into the game pamphlet! That was actually the first and only thing I looked of the game pamphlet. Big congrats!

Lady_D
13th Nov 2003, 08:27
I am in chapter 6 right now and...that conversation between Raziel and Ariel blew my mind-ooooooooo! That one particular staement she made (u know the one)

Jashugan
13th Nov 2003, 12:05
Well, i just finished and i'm extremely pleased at how it all came together. I'm kinda tired so maybe i'll post a bit later with more detail, but I just wanted to say that it was a pretty darn good game. I felt and technical issues were made up for by the gameplay/atmosphere/story. Great job to all involved!

Quickly, 2 of my favorite parts:

Kain's death scene
Raziel's contentment at being Kain's "right hand" once again, and Kain's reaction to Raziel's choice.

Oh and Vorador has a neato sword.

Lady_D
13th Nov 2003, 12:49
I'm exhausted, but I just can't stop playing. It's just toooo good!!
I wanna see another cinematic moment :D :D :D I'm just on chapter 7 - Aaaggh!

TempySmurf
13th Nov 2003, 13:08
Just finished Avernues Cathedral and ...

ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh



just finished and..

whew

Chubben
13th Nov 2003, 13:14
This...

game is killing me.

I can't resist the spoilers..
Did not read any yet.
This is really one of the hardest things to do. It feels the same as quiting smoking.
I don't think i can take it for two months without isolation.

Kain's Ancient Blade
13th Nov 2003, 15:28
I'm to Vorador's Mansion. I'm having a great time, and I love this game.

Ummm Chris. I have connections, would you like me to kill some people at gamespot for that lousy review. Really it wouldn't be a problem. Just give sometime to finish Defiance first.;)

RA Fox
13th Nov 2003, 15:55
Guys, what about the facial animation ? Is it like in Soul Reaver 2 ?

Jashugan
13th Nov 2003, 16:25
Originally posted by RA Fox
Guys, what about the facial animation ? Is it like in Soul Reaver 2 ?

I actually liked it a bit better in SR2, as well as some of the character models. But yes, it's similar to Soul Reaver 2.

RA Fox
13th Nov 2003, 17:11
Thanks for the info Jashugan :)

superfly_fish_guy
13th Nov 2003, 17:19
I'm also at Vorador's mansion, lovin' this game

Unholy Messiah
13th Nov 2003, 17:24
Thus far I've enjoyed the game even though I found it very boring in the first few chapters. I have just 2 main things I'd like to address:

1) Why are the light/dark forges so short?... you don't do ANYTHING in them, very disappointing. I haven't reached the others yet, but I hope they aren't the same.

2) Why does Raziel die now instead of shifting to spectral when all energy is lost in material?... It doesn't make any sense to me.

LordMune
13th Nov 2003, 18:56
Originally posted by Unholy Messiah
Thus far I've enjoyed the game even though I found it very boring in the first few chapters. I have just 2 main things I'd like to address:

2) Why does Raziel die now instead of shifting to spectral when all energy is lost in material?... It doesn't make any sense to me.

I can't really say for sure, since I don't have the game, but I think it has to do with the fact that Raziel doesn't have the Elder God's support anymore.

Zephonsfate
13th Nov 2003, 19:03
I have a question for those who have it obviously:

can you explore and backtrack within a chapter with your character? What I mean is, if I am playing as Raziel and I am in say ch. 4 and want to return to the place ch.1 occured, do I have that freedom? If this is not so and we are limited like in BO2 I will be a little dissapointed.I am only using those chapter numbers for examples. I do not expect to explore where Kain is if they both are not in the same time period.

ThunderDemon
13th Nov 2003, 19:18
That game was so COOL! Talk about unexpected twists. I just finished it and I have about only three words for it:

Never would have thought it would turn out the way it did. One more thing after Defiance will there be another game or was this it? Great job though. Keep 'em rolling.

That kinda explains Janos being BO2

SwordStorm
13th Nov 2003, 19:26
wonderful game, now tell eidos to get the darn pal version done. those poor pal players :( all this gloating, spoiling, rubbing in their faces....

it's just too bad you can't please PAL players as much as you have pleased me with the story.

Gorniac
13th Nov 2003, 21:00
Good lord, how do you fit 10 horus of gameplay into one day!? Did you not eat or are you all jobless/out of school?

Joshua5916
14th Nov 2003, 02:20
Blood Omen was my favorite of all the games. I have to say of all the Legacy of Kain games Blood Omen 2 was by far the worst. It was just soo gothic and totally messed up the story in many ways. The whole reason I liked Legacy of Kain was because it was the first I had ever seen about vampires that was not gothic. Vorador should have never been alive in it. Kain said he could never make a race of his own in it yet he did.

Something I noticed in Defiance was that Raziel didn't seem to know Ariel when he has talked with her in the last two Soul Reaver games. That makes no sense. It doesn't matter if he did go back in time he still knew her. The story was rather good but I have to say I never much liked the idea of the Hilden. I rathered it more of just vampires and humans in nosgoth with the sarafan. I liked the idea of a higher power controlling things but Hilden just didn't cut it for me. Never really much liked them. Anyways it seems as though the Hilden are not the ones leading things from the way the "squid" talked. It also appears there is going to be a add on which I can't wait for.

Legacy of Kain series are by far my favorite game and story of anything I've ever heard. The fighting in this game is really great. Kain is hilarious in his actions and the voice actors are really good. The graphics are great and everything about it. It took me two days to beat it of roughly 14 hours or so. I never became stuck but once or twice for more than 10 minutes.

Thank you for making the game and can't wait for the next one. In the next legacy of Kain game it would be good if they keep all their old abilities they've had through out all the games and not have to get them over again but I guess you need something to do in the game.

Lady_D
14th Nov 2003, 07:55
It's great so far! Things are starting to get very interesting..... Especially that scene where Kain speaks with Squiddy :)

Lady_D
14th Nov 2003, 11:54
Just loved the cut scenes in the battles between Kain and Raz _ Absolutely priceless!

blue ancient
14th Nov 2003, 12:14
Wow. I finished tonight after an 8 hour block following last night's 5 hour mini-marathon and I have to go do it all again! This game ownes!!!

Soulfire
14th Nov 2003, 15:34
What is this code and what in blazes does Vae Victus mean? Please forgive my ignorance but I'd like to know - I feel so out of the loop. :(

-Soulfire

Lady_D
14th Nov 2003, 16:35
I can't beat the EG yet but thats not what i am here to discuss. Wonderful story but.........I am really upset about Raz! I mean, thats it he just gets sucked into the reaver. How awful! Raz is the best character ever developed. He can't be gone. I hope that he is back in the next story somehow, or I will probably not be buying another LOK game. I'm not trying to be a jerk It's just a fact that I buy the game because he's it it. Chris, PLEEAASE tell me Raz will find a way back in the next game! :( :eek: :confused:

Umah Bloodomen
14th Nov 2003, 17:13
Originally posted by Soulfire
What is this code and what in blazes does Vae Victus mean? Please forgive my ignorance but I'd like to know - I feel so out of the loop. :(

-Soulfire

In BO1, Kain defines it as: "Suffering to the Conquered". However some individuals who are fluent in Latin have suggested it actually means something else. Hopefully some of those individuals will be able to shed some more light on the subject for you. :)

Soul Reaver
14th Nov 2003, 17:30
My Latin dictionary gives: 'fine provisions'
e.g 'good food'
But yeah, Umah's right, in the game it's meant as (I think, you might never know what CD actually means :D): 'woe to the conquered'

omegafury
14th Nov 2003, 19:42
this is a great game! the graphics are gorgous (sp), they create mood and felling for the gothic style gameplay. the combat system is good too. obviously, the story is mint, as always in a LOK game. character shifting doesnt hinder gameplay, as i thought it may as the controls are similar.
best of all is the reaver enhancements

complaints
static cameras mean trouble! cd/eidos has done pretty good with them but i would still've liked a 3rd person, free roaming camera.

my only other complaints about this game is that there are kind-of invisible walls. you can see areas and can't reach them because of invisisble walls.
also, all the character upgrades(especially kain's combos) are gathered too easily and too quickly for my liking.

this is still my top xbox game for the moment, and its great to play as the new form of kain. i just thought i'd say what i felt.

§ycavier
14th Nov 2003, 20:34
i beat it this morning (after playing 10 hrs straight last night) and all I have to say is...

coolest game ever!!!! i was completly rivited by the avernus scenes. I had to think about it for a couple minutes just comprehend what just happened.

CrystalD did a hell of a bang up job on this one.
NICE



Gorniac
15th Nov 2003, 03:11
well, I've gotten this from the best Latin-English dictonary online that I've found:

vae : (interj.), woe, alas, woe to.

invictus : unconquer, unconquerable, undefeated.
victus : living, manner of life / nourishment, food.
victus : victuals, sustenance.

So, it would best be translated to:

Woe to the conquered

but who knows, Kain COULD be saying "alas! Food!" I mean, he IS a vampire! ;)

Jedilvr
15th Nov 2003, 04:00
Now that I've gotten through the game I have to say that the camera didn't end up being such a big deal as I thought it would be at the beginning.
The entire game rocked and I can't wait for the next one.

Threnodi
15th Nov 2003, 09:21
I remember one of the suggestions someone made I really thought sounded neat was the idea of Raziel's eyes leaving glow trails in Spectral like the sluuagh in SR2. So cool that you guys put that in! I also saw the credits entry for Willow and Umah and all. Again, so cool. ^_^ I'm alternating chapters with my sister so I haven't got to play too awful far yet, so I'll hold off on further comment for now. ;) Excfept for, YAY! this game is so fun!!!

InsaneScorpion331
15th Nov 2003, 14:37
I just beat it last night, all I have to say is great game! The only complaint from me is the camera, it got stuck plenty of times, most of which cost me a life or a great deal of time fixing it. I also encountered a few glitches, but those are fun to run into so I dont complain about those, but great game, loved the combat and story. *hopes no one flames me* ;)

Unholy Messiah
15th Nov 2003, 14:40
This is an amazing game, I loved the story the series just becomes more and more intriguing with each installment. I really liked the end sequence, quite cool. As I already mentioned the 2 things I disliked in an earlier post, other than the jumpy camera, I'm not going to get back into that.


On the whole Vae Victus discussion:

Right before Raziel rips the black heart out of Kain, he says: "Vae Victus" and then once he has it he says: "Woe to the Conquered". So I'd imagine we can just go with that...

Zagreus
15th Nov 2003, 19:50
I did take two years of latin in high school.
I am in no way fluent in the language (after all my teacher was crazy and walked out with an A for doing practically nothing), but I did learn something. If you look at a latin word you can ussually find an english word that sounds similar. You then take that word and put in a diffrent synonym.

ie.. Victus=Victim=Conquered
Vae=?

I dont know about Vae but yeah.

The phrase Vae Victus was used by a gual general when the romans accused them of using false weights to measure gold which they owed in defeat. In response to the complaint the general took his sword and added it to the scale then used the specific phrase we are talking about meaning. we kicked your (explicitive deleted) and now we make the rules now.

Anyway I beat the game a couple of days ago and I must say. I am impressed. The combat is addictive, I love nightmare hammer. and The story is addicting as ever. I got used to the camera angles and what not. I love the new corpse shift.

I thought it was funny when I shifted one time at a marker mind you in to material realm, but raziel did not posses a corpse for some reason. What I saw was a stick figure Raziel come out of the ground and his limbs then blew up like a ballon into their normal shape.
needless to say I could not stop laughing.

Slyther
15th Nov 2003, 20:08
Originally posted by Lady_D
I can't beat the EG yet but thats not what i am here to discuss. Wonderful story but.........I am really upset about Raz! I mean, thats it he just gets sucked into the reaver. How awful! Raz is the best character ever developed. He can't be gone. I hope that he is back in the next story somehow, or I will probably not be buying another LOK game. I'm not trying to be a jerk It's just a fact that I buy the game because he's it it. Chris, PLEEAASE tell me Raz will find a way back in the next game! :( :eek: :confused:

keep in mind raziel IS the reaver, as he says before he gets sucked in, he belongs there, hes not an actual being like other ppl in the world, hence how in the story how he has free will, he is just the spirit of the soul reaver... he was/is a great character tho, but as i said, he is the sword, he belongs in it, and remember its not legacy of raziel... kain has always been the main character

santora83
15th Nov 2003, 20:47
I am sad to say I've only enjoyed one game in this whole series, that being Blood Omen 1. I really liked Defiance until I started playing Raziel's chapters. The puzzles in this game aren't bad, it's how many times you have to do the same thing over and over. Fighting those statues is horribly boring and having to switch to the spectral realm to get through a gate becomes annoying. I don't even need to say how bad the camera work is in the game.

What hit me the hardest in this game is the collision detection. Normally I could care less if an enemy's body falls halfway into a wall or through stairs. But when they fall through the wall still alive, they would disappear and the game would not register them as being dead so barriers would not open.

Crystal Dynamics, please get it together or let someone with more ideas develop the series. Repetition is not bad, the level of repitition you put into Defiance is. Please don't take this as a flame against the game, just put a level of gameplay into the game that is up to par with the awesome story line...

Angel of Music
15th Nov 2003, 21:15
I absolutely adore the entire game......except the part that takes place in the pit. Come on.........CD, I know we have been hollering about Turel for some time now, but was this the best way to incorporate that bit of story into the grand scheme? I mean, Why would the Hylden need expend the effort to abduct Turel, take him bck in time, and use him for a vessel? Isn't Mortanius suitable?

Other than that, I was soundly impressed, what with the lack of of all of BO2's ............oversights, the playable Dark Chronicle, everything was better......oh...great job on closing up the Janos plot hole in BO2, but what about Vorador ? Still working on that one? Good to hear.
All in all, great work. Only minor qualms from me, and I'm sure that most of those willbe addressed in the next installment, as most of them are story elements/flaws/holes.

I appreciate everyone's hard work, throughout the series. Keep up the good work!

Slyther
16th Nov 2003, 02:40
i agree with you santana that the repitition on raziels levels was pretty ridiculous, i mean doin the practically same exact level 4 or 5 times in a row is just boring... doing raziels levels is when i had to put the controller down to take a break just so i dont go insane from being sent from one place to another place that looked exactly the same just a different color... sheesh

LauraOrganaSolo
16th Nov 2003, 04:16
I have to break this up into a whopping three posts so forgive me.

Once again, I reaffirm my adoration for the entire Crystal Dynamics team. Defiance was just about everything I prayed it would be. The ending didn't go at all as I expected but I am still immensely thankful, satisfied and very eager for the next game.

Graphics

Characters: Initially, I was disappointed when I heard there would be no FMV sequences but after watching trailer five and playing for less than a minute, it was easy to concede and agree that FMVs would be almost redundant. I have never seen such fabulous in-game graphics, particularly in regards to the realism in fabric, hair, and body movements. I gave myself the giggles just making Kain dash around and watching his hair flop from one shoulder to the other and God knows how many times I watched Kain rough Moebius up in the trailer just to marvel at the smooth animation of his robe.

Settings: I thought the land-scape was breath-taking in Soul Reaver 2 but Defiance is even more amazing. Whether in a snowy winter in a stark fortress or on an autumn romp in a cemetary, all of the settings are realistic and delicious. In particular my husband enjoyed running Raziel through leaf piles by the Pillars and seeing how many he could disrupt at once. :D I believe he was inspired by my making Raziel hide in snow drifts in Soul Reaver 2, though.

Sound

Voice Acting: The LoK games have always had some of the greatest audio elements. Anyone that knows me from the NR boards knows how enamored I am with Simon Templeman so at this point I am probably somewhat biased. :D Nonetheless, LoK continues to have THE BEST voice acting, hands down, no questions asked, and not just because I could listen to Simon Templeman read the dictionary and still be entertained. *laughs* The entire cast brings all of the characters to life, from the protagonists to the ever-embittered Vorador, melencholy Janos, devious Moebius, even the vampire hunters and undead.

Effects: Once again, great. There were some minor things that I missed from Soul Reaver 2, though, such as the delightfully realistic crunch of snow underfoot or echoes of footsteps in areas where an echo might be present (I heard this in a number of areas in SR2, which is why I'm being nitpicky and pointing it out =P ). For some reason, I was really glad to hear the same water sound effects from SR2. Something about the sploosh sounds Raziel makes in water in SR2 and Defiance just kinda makes me giggle. ^_^

I love the new and old (particularly Air and Fire) Reaver sound effects, although I miss the tormented scream/roar heard in Soul Reaver 2 and Blood Omen 1 when the non-elemental Soul Reaver is fully charged.

The new atmosphere of the spectral realm is intriguing and fitting but was a bit too obtrusive, almost over-done. I liked the previous background sound of the spectral plane just fine, with the music the same as in the material realm but distorted and eerie. The moaning and crying and whatnot make it much more hellish however and less like limbo or the shadow plane than in SR1 and SR2.

Story

Plot: I love it. THIS is where the heart of all the Legacy of Kain games lie and like the previous games (not counting Blood Omen 2 o_o ), Defiance is hard to tear yourself away from. It is thought-provoking, mature without being dry or boring, witty, and just damn entertaining.

Dialogue/Monologue: The writing was excellent but seemed a bit short on Kain monologues. I'm not sure if I say that because Kain really did have less narration than Raziel or because I am pathetically obsessed with Kain and Simon Templeman so I'll leave that up to interpretation.

I really liked having an inventory for the first time since Blood Omen 1 but I wish the items had had little explanations in the same way instead of just the names. I asked for a LOT of stuff to happen in Defiance and I got almost everything I wanted plus more so I shouldn't be this picky. =P

The best part of Defiance, hands down, is seeing Kain's attitude towards Raziel. Ever since Soul Reaver 1 I have been INSISTING that Kain is not evil and that his attitude towards Raziel is not that of a jealous, petty tyrant but that of a paternal figure, remorseful and rueful for having to do what is necessary to ensure his very existance. Defiance proves what I've been saying all along. :D

Favorites:

The best fanservice in the history of fandom: All the old Kain fans got to do what they've been itching to do since Soul Reaver 1 and spank Raziel like the disobedient, upstart child(e) he is and all the people that started with Soul Reaver 1 got to beat up Kain just as they have always wanted. XD

I loved, LOVED the scenes in Avernus, although at the same time it just makes me infuriated with Raziel. XD I have been trying to convince my husband that Raziel is not the impudent, pretentious, puppet SR1 and to some extent, SR2 have implied he is. Unfortunately for Raziel, Defiance just kind of killed my argument: we took turns controlling the characters and played the whole game together and after Raziel took the heart, the loading screen came up, and the screen sat there saying, "Press X to continue" for at least a minute while we sat in silence contemplating the events. After a moment, he took it upon himself to put me in my place and chuckling, said. "I told you Raziel is an insolent twit. No, you said he had grown up a bit in Soul Reaver 2, no 'he's better now,' isn't he?" :D So yeah, I spent the next few hours wanting to strangle Raziel...

Fraternal love at its best: Although I managed not to shed tears this time, I was SO touched by Raziel's last scene with Kain. I may be a total geek with video games and sci-fi/fantasy but when it comes down to the line, I am a pathetic female stereotype. :o *laughs* :p I felt like shouting "AWWWW!!!" and hugging something.

"I am what I have always been, your right hand, your sword." Kain's disbelieving, desperate pleas almost brought me to tears, and yes, I know it sounds goofy but it was just thrilling. =D Just fantastic. *cartwheels* If I had the money, I swear on my life I'd be writing out commission checks right this minute for Esoteric and Chibi J to both do pieces depicting this scene (if Chibi J weren't so busy right now, anyway ). If this had been a month ago, I WOULD try to commission something. :( >_<

Everyone's favorite time-streaming old git: Every Legacy of Kain game should be required to have a Moebius cameo. He's been in all five of the games now so I think it should just be a rule. =P

I have become much more enthusiastic about Moebius since SR2 and as with so much else, his appearence in Defiance was just as cool. I'd go as far as to say there might not have been enough Moebius in Defiance! Still, killing a second and third time was just a riot. Raziel's snatching up of Moebius in the spectral realm made me positively gleeful and Kain's reflexive beatdown when Raziel possessed his corpse cracked me up.

Not only not gone, but not forgotten either: It's been too long since I played Blood Omen 1 all the way through so I can't complain much about Mortanius being too far removed from his original depiction. Still, it was great to see someone as important as Mortanius for the first time in seven years and this incarnation was downright pimptastic. :D

A new theory on his identity every week: Oh my gosh, no more TUREL = SANTA CLAUS threads, no more ridiculous postulating! I have never been that big on the whole TUREL CANNOT BE FORGOTTEN thing but that doesn't mean I didn't think Turel's appearence wasn't totally cool. The irony is fantastic, though. I flipped out during the Hash'ak'gik ceremony and hearing the test from Blood Omen 1 read just made me laugh and laugh, I thought it was such a great reference.

Everyone's favorite "sadohedonist:" It's always fun to see Vorador again. He's got to be the only man in all of Nosgoth with such an apathetic attitude. It is his apathetic bitterness and his insistance at detaching himself from the world and almost hiding from it that makes him so enjoyable though. Revelations regarding his heritage were quite unexpected and very ponderous, though. Should be interesting to see this explored more in the future.

The only altruistic character ever to exist in Nosgoth? I have mixed feelings on Janos at this point. I hope I can see him interact with Vorador someday, as I don't know what to make of him now, or the rest of the Ancients. He seemed to benevolent and altruistic in Soul Reaver 2 but much more single-minded and almost zealous in Defiance. We didn't get as much time to chat with him this time, though, which is a bit of a disapointment. Still, as I said before, I know I asked a lot and I am SO THANKFUL for what I got. ^_^

Bluevervain
16th Nov 2003, 04:34
I picked up my copy of Defiance on the day it came out, and I finished it today. I just have to say, my God, I love this series!

As far as my comments on this game specifically, I have some glowing praise and one complaint. So here goes:

I adore the combat system--it's perfect! So utterly intuitive; all the moves are not only simple to perform, they all look really cool as well. And the freedom to improvise is great, I mean:

Who didn't love chucking hunters off balconies and ledges, and tossing revenants into torches? Talk about FUN..!

The scenery and settings are gorgeous, too. I kind of want to live in Vorador's mansion, personally(!) Only, must hire exterminators first to get rid of all the pesky critters... I also got a real kick out of the interactive environments, not just the combat-related stuff mentioned above (in that blue box there) but the rest as well--as much as I like Vorador's mansion, I rather gleefully trashed a fair amount of his posh furniture. *sheepish grin* :rolleyes:

The camera in Defiance was my only real bane--there were times when I found myself in a fight with some nasty thing(s) and unable to see either the thing(s) or myself--just an extreme close-up of a tree or pillar or what have you. Annoying. It also made the jumps difficult, bad angles made depth and angle hard to judge.
Did anyone else find themselves dying repeatedly in the 'deadly mist' with Raziel, or in that frozen lake with Kain? Ouch.
Also, the direction swap-around every time you enter a new area...same problem with Devil May Cry 2...you run into a room only to find yourself running right back out again, because foward is now backward and vice versa. Finally, there were times when I would have liked to zoom out to get a better view of things when trying to work out what to do next or where to go, the look-around mode in SR2 was something I used a lot and while it was present here, it was a lot more limited, especially when you wanted to look upward. Harder to orient yourself. Still, I got used to it, and managed pretty well, obviously.

Finally, the story: Phemonenal. Great cutscenes, awesome ending. The writers did a spectacular job, and the voice actors were amazing as always. This it why I bought the game the day it came out, why I love the series, why I'll probably buy anything even remotely LoK-related for the rest of my life. It's not often you see character development in a video game, and if you do it's never of this scope. It has a level of subtlety in the writing unlike anything I've ever seen in a (non-LoK) game, for example:
Kain has always more or less been an arrogant, evil-and-proud-of-it antihero...he even says, (with amusing irony) that he's been been called 'heartless'--and yet his concern for Raziel and his fate throughout his chapters, and his anguish at Raziel's final decision, is palpable, and beautifully written and portrayed. Not overblown, not under-played. Just...amazing.
I also really enjoyed the 'reunion' scene with Raziel and Turel, and Raziel's scenes with Janos. And Mobius' ultimate comeuppance--very, very satisfying.
Somewhat related, I also was delighted by the change in the Dark Chronicle--the written summaries were nice, but now I can rewatch a favorite scene anytime I like, without having to keep a save file just prior to it. Good thing, too, because out of habit I made a new file anytime I saw a scene I thought I might like to view again, and ended up with seven--vs. 3 each for BO2 and SR2. Defiance is that good.

I honestly hope there's a movie (or two) made of this series, provided they remain faithful to the story and characters and don't Hollywood the heck out of it. Maybe unlikely, but then, they've made movies of games with far less depth and, frankly, merit. *cough*Mario Brothers*cough cough*
(apologies to anyone who actually liked that movie, btw.)

Oh, I also tripped a glitch just inside the front door of Vorador's mansion, very odd, I made the jump off the wall but got caught on the chandelier, then fell through the wall and couldn't get back inside or see myself; I ran forward (and the footstep sound changed at one point, like I walked from indoors to out) and Raz reappeared, but in this blue field half in, half out of the floor. Kind of under it. Very odd. I had to quit and restart. But I'm not sure I could do that again if I tried--so, less annoying than the Reaver door in the Dark Forge in SR2 that half the time won't open and then disappears entirely, trapping me there... :eek:
I've had to redo the Dark Forge so many times due to that bug that I can solve it in my sleep!

Another thing I really liked was the attention to detail. From the way the game referred back to all the others, with settings and characters from BO and SR as well as SR2... (not too many references to BO2, at least not that I noticed. I'm actually not certain chronologically where that one fits in with the rest.) Still--NEAT. Ditto the visual details, a favorite one for me being:
The way the skull hilt of Kain's Reaver, in the final battle, has Raziel's glowing blue eyes. Nice touch, guys!

Okay, I've now written more than anyone else in the thread. :o Good lord, it's an essay! I hope no one hates me for it; actually I hope everyone enjoys reading it. I could say a lot more, gush really, about the game in general and the story in particular, but instead I'll wrap up by saying, Defiance is easily the best game I've played, since...hrm...Soul Reaver 2? ;)
Go get it, guys. I can't imagine anyone being sorry they did...

LauraOrganaSolo
16th Nov 2003, 04:37
I don't even need to say how bad the camera work is in the game.

Wow. Compared to what, exactly? Sure, there is the potential for problems with scenery hiding the combat, but that only happened to me a couple of times. Defiance's camera is like sleeping on a featherbed after ten years of sleeping on nails compared to the camera angles of ANY action game made by Capcom (Resident Evil, Onimusha, Devil May Cry Over a Total Lack of Plot, etc.) or any game similar to that horrific static camera in an action game.

Overall, I found the camera work to be a pretty big improvment over all of the other games in the series. I particularly enjoy the freedom of being able to go first person and stufy various background tidbits as much as I like.


What hit me the hardest in this game is the collision detection. Normally I could care less if an enemy's body falls halfway into a wall or through stairs. But when they fall through the wall still alive, they would disappear and the game would not register them as being dead so barriers would not open.

Wow, that kinda sucks. I had only one instance of collision detection acting up, though.

Random note: I always end up sounding like some kind of overenthusiastic fruitcake when it comes to LoK because I never seem to experience any bugs or gameplay issues (except in BO2). I wrote this ludicrously ecstatic review for SR2 for some newsletter or something two years ago and almost got mobbed by angry people ranting about how bugged it was for them. Two years and I still have had no issues with SR2.


Eidos, please get it together or let someone with more ideas develop the series.

I'm pretty sure Eidos is merely the publisher. Anyway, I wouldn't want anyone but Crystal Dynamics -- specifically Amy Hennig's team -- to do the Legacy of Kain games at this point. And FYI, the first game of the series I played was Blood Omen 1 so don't bother chocking it up to my being new to the series.


This it why I bought the game the day it came out, why I love the series, why I'll probably buy anything even remotely LoK-related for the rest of my life. It's not often you see character development in a video game, and if you do it's never of this scope.

Well put. I wish I could have said something as meaningful (and brief, heh) as that, because it certainly sums up my feelings on the series.


Okay, I've now written more than anyone else in the thread. Good lord, it's an essay! I hope no one hates me for it; actually I hope everyone enjoys reading it.

I am easily THE most long-winded dork of the LoK fandom, so I certainly don't hate you. *laughs* And I did enjoy reading it. ^_^


Did you not eat or are you all jobless/out of school?

Just obsessed, in my case. XD We got our copy at about 6pm Wednesday and stayed up till 12am that night, then played from like 9pm to 1am Thur, and 8pm to 4am Friday. We both slept in REALLY late this morning.


Blood Omen was my favorite of all the games. I have to say of all the Legacy of Kain games Blood Omen 2 was by far the worst.

I have to agree. I just try to pretend BO2 is some kind of alternate universe game or something. Besides the technical issues, Blood Omen 2 wasn't really a BAD game -- unless you compared it to the rest of the series. That's because the other LoK games have been so outstanding.

I would be less disgruntled and irate about BO2 if it hadn't

* A. Hadn't had such a moronic marketing scheme. Sorry but Defiance is just more proof that Kain is not evil and never HAS been evil. The whole point of Blood Omen 1 was that good and evil are all relative terms and that there is really only darker and lighter shades of grey. Crap like, "Take on the role of the most EVIL video game villain in history" was downright offensive to me as an LoK fan.

* B. Didn't seem chock full of plot holes, like Kain's missing scar for a majority of the promo images and the game itself and Vorador still being alive. It's been a year and a half and I still don't understand how Vorador was alive. :mad:

* C. Wasn't so shamefully buggy. :(


Other than that, I was soundly impressed, what with... the playable Dark Chronicle...

The playable Dark Chronicle makes me SO HAPPY. That has got to be the only thing missing from SR2.

Okay, that's enough out of me for now, I'm sure.

Lastly: THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU Crystal Dynamics for all your time and effort at bringing us this absolutely wonderful game. It's stuff like Defiance that make me thank God for for the ability to enjoy and comprehend and see and hear.

Go cheese.

LauraOrganaSolo
16th Nov 2003, 04:56
I forgot to mention the extras in my actual review post and I think if I make it any longer, no one is going to read it so here goes.

As those familiar with me know, I have an almost unhealthy adoration for Simon Templeman. I'm not sure when or how I moved from the "Wow, this guy has great voice," stage to the "Wow, this is the most mellifulous voice I've ever heard," stage to "I NEED TO SEE MORE SIMON O_O What is he REALLY like?" stage but I do know that I am irrevocably infatuated. I actually feel the need to apologize, although I don't know why.

I've tracked down a number of his stage performances on audio and managed to catch a couple of his guest appearences on TV shows (that's normal, right? People go to see movies that their favorite actor is in, right? :o ) but nothing beats getting to see him as a normal guy instead of another character. For this, I extend my heartiest thanks.

Simon Templeman obsession aside, I can't be the only person that has always wondered how actors feel about their roles and LoK is no different. I LOVE to see Michael Bell, Renè Auberjonois, Richard Doyle, and Tony Jay goof off and do their stuff. Amy Hennig and whomever else came up with the idea to give the fans a chance at seeing the voice actors we love, you have my undying gratitude.

Defiance has made me one hell of a happy camper.

Jashugan
16th Nov 2003, 21:56
Originally posted by LauraOrganaSolo
I've tracked down a number of his stage performances on audio and managed to catch a couple of his guest appearences on TV shows (that's normal, right? People go to see movies that their favorite actor is in, right? :o ) but nothing beats getting to see him as a normal guy instead of another character. For this, I extend my heartiest thanks.
[/B]

I remeber overhearing an episode of "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman" that had Simon Templeman in it that my parents were watching. I ran into room and was like "Holy ****, that's Kain!" I agree, it's cool to see the actors goofing off and messing up lines.

High Priest of Avernus
16th Nov 2003, 22:01
Without a doubt, experiencing LOK: Defiance was among the best 14 hours of my life. Beyond the breathtaking aesthetics of the game, LOK: Defiance is story telling at its absolute finest. In a day and age when intelligent, substantive stories are rarely found, scarcely appreciated, and so desperately needed, The Legacy of Kain is a shinning example of what contemporary myth making can be. As a graduate student of theology at Yale I am convinced that the Legacy of Kain series is Divinely Inspired. I have recently exposed a colleague to the series starting with the first Blood Omen and he is on his way to making the same conclusion. Revelation is within my friends.

As I understand that criticism does get passed along for future use, I will make two minor murmurings:

The first concerns the new camera. I quite disliked it. There were times when it made timed puzzles in the game take an hour longer than they should have because the camera would take an awkward view that did not show the place where Raziel needed to jump. Other times the camera would get stuck in a wall and you could not see Kain in the middle of combat. Needless to say this was a distracting element in the game.

Second, what happened to Moebius’ trademark voice? It wasn’t nearly as “whiny” this time around. Although he slowly got it back as the game progressed, at first I was not sure if the character was supposed to be an imposter. I also found this distracting.

Beyond these two critiques, LOK: Defiance was, for me, a welcomed and exhilarating break from what had once been a promising graduate study carrier ;) Just kidding, I think I can make up the time ;) I am looking forward to the next chapter in this extraordinary epic.

P.S. The worship ceremony of Hash’Ak’Gik at Avernus Cathedral; what more could the High Priest of Avernus ask for? ;)

Zagreus
16th Nov 2003, 22:42
I, in no way have such an education as yours, nor am I in your feild. But I must say that I do agree with your point, High preist, about the lack of intelligent stories now a day. I have played a number of games, and seen a number of films, all with the same used up plot (kill the bad guys and save the day, or something to that extent), and rarely is there character development. But this series does break that barrier, and I wish to see more from the series as well as more stories of this type. I do hope not to see an end some time soon, as for I would not be able to feed my want for such a type of story for a decent time.

I have told friends who don't agree with my obsession that this series is my equivalent of their Star Wars.

Raziel02
17th Nov 2003, 01:05
Hello Everyone

I have finished. What a wonderfully bittersweet feeling.

I already knew after the ending of SR2 that the Legacy of Kain series was of an Epic status. My friends and I agreed (we're all huge game, comic, and sci-fi buffs) that the Kain series is easily in the top five game storylines of all time (I put it in number 1 for me, but I'm slightly biased. I also extend that distinction to the top five stories PERIOD. Even in books and movies).

My official opinion? Loved it. All of it. I do want to clairify ahead of time that I have the utmost respect for Kain and he is one of my favorite charecters out there. How can he not be? But I like Raziel just a *bit* more.

That being said, here we go. (Spoilers blotted out where appropriate)

The story was amazing. I didn't think they could top the twist at the end of SR2, the way they placed Mobieus and Malek at the end, the way Raziel ended his own life and started himself on this path, the way everything unfolded, even Kain's miscalculation when pulling the reaver from Raziel.

I was wrong. These twists blew the last games away IMO.

The fact we were able to fight as both Kain and Raziel verus eachother? Brilliant! The ending scene between Kain and Raziel? Still gets me misty. The way the characters were interwoven - Turel coming back?? I hadn't been reading any spoilers on the game and surely didn't think they'd ever resolve the Turel issue more than they did in SR2. Yet they did, and it was wonderful. And Mortanius? He was standing up on a reproduction of the pillars' base talking to Kain as he had in BO1 when Raziel came up to him? I could go on all day.

I do have two story-related questions:

1) Did they imply Ariel was killed by Mortanius? I am usually pretty good at picking up the subtle hints in the story, but so much was in the end of Defiance, I'm not sure if they clarified her killer at the end.

And 2) When Kain was still living after loosing the Heart, why? I heard them mention that it was because he was a Scion of Balance, not just the Balance Guardian, but is there a better reason for that? More explanation? Right now I'm assuming it will be explained more in the next game, just like every other story point has been, I was just curious if someone else picked up on something I did not.

I'm not worried about the Vorador issue, I see how it's easily repaired at this point and don't see it as a point of contention at all.

From story to graphics and gameplay. What a beautiful game. I have a personal dislike for the X-box system (more moral than anything), but when faced with a choice between my favorite Epic story and my own petty dislike for a system, LoK won out. I needed the system that would do this story justice. The fighting system was so improved over every othe LoK game, it brought a tear to my eye. It's not perfect, but just about.

I have one gripe. And it's imporant for people who've played the previous games to know if they're going to play this game, so no spoiler. In previous instalments of the Soul Reaver series - they made the issue that Raziel cannot affect anything in the spectral realm. He can walk, jump, and that's it. No moving, swimming, or CLIMBING! Really, it was a thing. It was used in puzzles previously forcing you to find other ways around. I've played these games several times over, knowing that Raziel cannot climb in spectral. So I was more that a bit peeved when I was running around for 30 minutes trying to find out where I needed to go next, when I just happened to jump up, and land on a climbable wall I had passed up a dozen times before in spectral (one that could not be reached in material). It must not have bothered many other people, but I figure when you're messing with traditional controls established in TWO previous installments, you might mention the change somewhere. Maybe they did, but I surely missed it.

And the camera was a nice addition. I was through several hours of the game before my friend figured out you could pushed the right stick and get a free-view (something I had complained about all night when playing). It made life a LOT easier after that. It was hard to control at times too, such as the running throught doors/switching camera angles issue that caused you to run in and out of the same door a few times. My friends who watched me play said the cinematic effect made it more enjoyable to watch.
Slightly annoying, but the cinematic effect the camera had really added to the wonderful story and graphics of the LoK series.

I'm sure some of you out there are in a similar position that I am in this respect. I love the games and have played them many times over. The puzzles can sometimes be obtuse and leave you running around a while (not so much this time, but definately in previous installments). And until Defiance, the combat system hadn't been the selling point of any of the games. But being such a huge fan of the story and as much as I loved the characters, I could do nothing but forge ahead and work my way to the next beloved jewel in the story. I have (now after Defiance) 4 other friends who live the Legacy of Kain series vicariously through me. The second largest Kain fan I know hasn't even played more than a few hours of the first two games - yet he speaks of the Kain Epic with such admiration and respect. The other 3 have never even played the game, but love or respect the game for what it is. Because of the difficult puzzles and frustrating fighting mechanics, they themselves would never delve into a LoK game, but they want to watch the story unfold and will sit and watch me play for hours (which is no small feat when many of those hours are running around figuring out where to go next) just so they can enjoy the enriching storyline. I think it says a lot for a series when you can play this one player game in the company of friends. Not since Final Fantasy have you been able to entertain a group of people with a game's story like this.

And that's why we love the new change to the Dark Chronicles so much. If they had to leave, or if they missed any moment in the story, they could now view it at their leisure, and not have to worry about missing out on it. How wonderful is this? I wish all the games had this feature.

I didn't enjoy the invisible wall issue that was there, and there was a glitch I ran into where I had been traversing the lower level of a forge while in spectral and ran right through a huge bolder blocking a door I needed. Granted, I hoped it was a plan and that I was supposed to have done that, but needless to say I could not make my way back out and had to restart when there was no other exit. Minor issues really. Not enough to detract from the game.

My own thoughts on the story (review, not prediction):

As I stated in the beginning, I am definately a huge fan of Raziel (I got the Razielium clan tatoo on my left wrist just a few months ago....not obsessed, I just have huge respect for such a great story). So I loved the evolution of the story.

I was concerened when Raziel confronted Kain in the cathedral. I LOVED the twist of Raziel killing Kain instead of Kain killing Raziel because we (my friends and I) had all been sure it would have unfolded the latter way, not former. I was distraught at his regression to a paranoid child during the fight, but I have tried to explain to my friends that his eyes had been glowing, had energy trails of a blue/green variety, indicating Raziel was not quite himself at the time.

And really, who could blame the poor soul after all he has been through. He hasn't run into one being his whole unlife who had not betrayed him or used him in one way or another. He even betrayed himself in a way when he discovered the type of person he had been when had lived. Even though one can argue Kain's actions at the beginning of SR1 were of a person who was doing the job fate required him too - it was still nothing short of betrayal for the Vampire Raziel as he approached his benevolent leader all those years ago, before being sentenced to an eternity of agony by the one he trusted so and not even knowing the true reason why.

All Raziel's interactions with Kain after that were marred by that one very precise incident (and the constant reminder being Raziel's current form and prediciment - hardly something anyone could forget). Kain had been used and betrayed much like Raziel (having been betrayed by his first set of underlings, having to kill his own potential queen - all in BO2, not to mention the entire story of BO1). And while surprised when he found himself in the position at the end of the battle in Avernon where Raziel had ripped out his heart, he had seen it coming in the sense, if only for a moment before his "demise". When the realization of how it must look to Raziel when Raziel's essensce was been drawn from his animated corpse and imprisoned in the Reaver was forefront on Kain's mind - as evident by his cautionary plea..."Raziel...No..", he knew how it would play out. Yet in the end Kain survived despite all odds, Raziel exercised his free will, and he was able to fullfill his destiny, giving his soul to Kain so that Kain may then in turn fulfill his own true destiny. Raziel had forgiven Kain, and Kain knew at that moment that there had been at least one truely loyal being to grace his life, unspoiled by plots and innduendo - guided only by loyalty, respect, enough sense to see his place in the larger picture and enough character to accept the sacrifice fate required of him. Kain had found in his "co-conspirator against fate" a loyal servant, an abstract version of a son, and dare we say it - a friend. I'm not sure that's a word Kain had ever been able to use in his lifetime. It's even sadder to realize that the moment they both realized the connection they shared was the same moment when they realize they will never meet in such a way ever again. Just tears you up inside, doesn't it?

But every time I get a little misty at how the story unfolds (and kick myself, because at the end of the day we all should have realized this moment was inevitable - how can the series exist if Raziel did not return to the reaver?) I just think back at the first time I ever truely saw Kain smile, that moment when he looked down into the Elder's pit and saw Mobius standing there. How beautiful was it that not only Kain, but Raziel too got their revenge upon that coniving bastard? True poetry.


Did I mention how much I loved the story yet? God, how am I going to make it to the next game?

Anyways, to wrap up (Kudos if you've made it through my drival this long. One of the longest threads I have ever written, but what can I say - it is a passion of mine) I could not have been more pleased with the game. It was vastly improved upon from the previous installment in every way except story. But really, how can you improve upon something that has already reached perfection?

I cannot wait for the next installment. Though I'm not sure how I will be able to cope with a Raziel-less episode, I know that I will continue to enjoy this story to see how it will unfold and (hopefully not for a while) conclude.

If you find yourself missing the soul-sucking anti-hero a bit too much, just remember: Raziel is not gone, he will forever be Kain's most prized possession/companion and without him, Kain can not do what he must to fullfill his fated destiny.

A shout out to all the LoK fans out there, Double to the Raziel fans,

Raziel2

Hierophant
17th Nov 2003, 01:29
The game was great. I really enjoyed the new camera system. I NEVER had a problem with it. And it added to the cinematic experience.

The risks they took with the story were amazing, I really like what they did with the characters. I can't wait for the next installment. Thankfully they left some questions to explore.

I do however have a huge problem with the amount of bugs in the game. Raziel and enemies getting stuck in walls (it never happened with Kain), sound effects not kicking in, the constant looping cinematic bug and the Heart of Dakness bug which is fatal to the game. I can go on.

The last two games in the series had major bug problems as well but this seems to be the worst. Every game has its problems but I have NEVER played a console game where I had to restart because of bugs twice. Some better playtesting would have made it a flawless game for me.

LauraOrganaSolo
17th Nov 2003, 02:45
I apologize if this thread was not really meant for discussion and I am kind of hogging space.


Laura-how far are you from LA/Southern CA? If not too far, you might want to keep your eye out on the performance schedule of LA Theatre Works-readings/audio plays done before a live audience, that sort of thing.

I'm on their mailing list praying for notification of something that Mr. Templeman is actually in.

I still get the urge to repeatedly bash my head against a wall every time I am reminded of a Q&A Ben passed on from Amy and Simon Templeman in which Simon said one of his favorite roles was when he did Hamlet some years ago. Hamlet is my absolute FAVORITE play. ;_;


Second, what happened to Moebius’ trademark voice? It wasn’t nearly as “whiny” this time around... I also found this distracting.

Oh my gosh, I wondered the same thing! I loved Richard Doyle's conniving Moebius voice in Soul Reaver 2 and Blood Omen 1. Moebius sounded so TOUGH in Defiance, though! *laughs*


In a day and age when intelligent, substantive stories are rarely found, scarcely appreciated, and so desperately needed, The Legacy of Kain is a shinning example of what contemporary myth making can be.

Here, here. I don't understand why people like you aren't writing intelligent previews and whatnot instead of the morons that revere sports games at Official PlayStation Magazine who accuse Legacy of Kain as being "too dramatic" and wondered if they were "getting too old to appreciate it." :rolleyes:


I remeber overhearing an episode of "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman" that had Simon Templeman in it that my parents were watching. I ran into room and was like "Holy ****, that's Kain!"

I've had experiences exactly like that. I often hear Michael Bell on commercials (usually Zales, some kind of juice brand, and some others) and occasionally narrating various entertainment industry-based documentaries. Last Halloween I caught Tony Jay narrating a show on paranormal science and supernatural phenomena and I continue to hear him on commercials for the Big Brothers, Big Sisters association. :D


I didn't think they could top the twist at the end of SR2, the way they placed Mobieus and Malek at the end, the way Raziel ended his own life and started himself on this path, the way everything unfolded, even Kain's miscalculation when pulling the reaver from Raziel.

Oh man, yeah, that moment is really tough to top. Just another one of the reasons why I revered Soul Reaver 2 and why I love Crystal Dynamics so much.


The ending scene between Kain and Raziel? Still gets me misty.

Good to know I'm not the only one. :D


Kain had found in his "co-conspirator against fate" a loyal servant, an abstract version of a son, and dare we say it - a friend. I'm not sure that's a word Kain had ever been able to use in his lifetime. It's even sadder to realize that the moment they both realized the connection they shared was the same moment when they realize they will never meet in such a way ever again. Just tears you up inside, doesn't it?

My thoughts exactly. Just discussing it makes me want to leap back into the other room and play it again.

moriarti
17th Nov 2003, 02:54
I want to start off by saying to the crystal dynamics team "Great Job!" I actually like the camera work, and besides having to work around a few places to get things to work properly (like having to place Kain/Raziel in odd places so that I could have the TK switch visible since the TK bullseye would stop at the edge of the visible screen - you should see the hand positions I had to make to position the character and aim the bullseye).:)


Also, this is the first time I have seen a console give a alloc error (memory management anyone?). I got it:

When I used the look function with Kain at the now empty pool at the end where Kain kills Mobius

It was nice to see consistency in game play. Defiance has all the features of the SR series combined with some of the features used in BO2. I always liked the long jump feature in BO2. It was good to see Kain's esthetics were retained. Also,
KAIN'S MIST DODGE ABILITY IS BY FAR ONE OF THE KOOLEST COMBAT MOVES EVER! Kain was by far my favorite character to play because of this!

That was the best two days I ever lost to a video game.

Zagreus
17th Nov 2003, 04:39
Originally posted by moriarti
That was the best two days I ever lost to a video game.

Amen to that

Raziel02
17th Nov 2003, 04:46
Tell me about it. I still have my 9-5 job, so I went to work functioning on 2 hours of sleep each night (or should I say nap). I had passed out in front my computer after the 2nd day. But really, they should have been amazed that I made it in at all. Had it been earlier in the year, I would have taken the day off just so I could play it through straight...



For anyone interested to check it out, I've made my own Raziel sculpture - it ended up being larger than the action figure in size. It's on my site at www.cannonfoddergraphics.com under Sculptures....

Hasta,

Raziel02

Sky Wolf
17th Nov 2003, 12:00
I absolutelly loved the game, took me 3 days to finish it. Only because one of my roommates decided to also play it and saved over my game.

I had just saved after talking to Vorador and ended up right back at the very begining of the game.

That ok though.

I have to say that beyond everything else, the scenery in the game was absolutelly amazing. All the different carpets and colors at Vorador's were awsome. I have only one gripe. Compared to the previous games, and this is not including BO2, the puzzles seemed too simplistic. The puzzles in the first SR were much better and even in SR2 there was more to them.

Sin13
17th Nov 2003, 16:22
The game is alright. I like it so far. But my complaints or whatever you want to call them would go to the new camera angles. Sure it adds a cinematic feeling but it often times interferes with the gameplay. Besides that, this game is awsome. The first Legacy of Kain is still the best though by far ;) .

HolyMoses
17th Nov 2003, 18:52
Originally posted by Soulfire
What is this code and what in blazes does Vae Victus mean? Please forgive my ignorance but I'd like to know - I feel so out of the loop. :(

-Soulfire

Vae Victus: Suffering to the conquored

STAYPUFT
17th Nov 2003, 19:15
You guys have outdone yourselves once again. Wonderful!
I love the new camera ; very cinematic.(it did take a little getting used too at first) I just finished this morning & was just blown away by the ending. having raz finally enter the blade was inevitable & I hate to see him go. But it was pulled off perfectly. Can't wait for the next installment where Kain really gets to lay the smack down on some Hylden ass!

Thanks eidos/CD & everyone involved
You should be proud

High Priest of Avernus
17th Nov 2003, 19:38
Originally posted by LauraOrganaSolo
Here, here. I don't understand why people like you aren't writing intelligent previews and whatnot instead of the morons that revere sports games at Official PlayStation Magazine who accuse Legacy of Kain as being "too dramatic" and wondered if they were "getting too old to appreciate it." :rolleyes:

Indeed. I have found it a common means of defense among the infantile and feebleminded to project their own feelings of inadequacy upon the people or things which cause them to realize said inadequacies. I apologize in advance to those intelligent sports and/or fighting game fans out there, but I find that the vast majority of video games, along with most films and contemporary literature, are flooded with senseless drivel meant to provide hollow excitement to underused minds. It is a sad fact that Eidos will probably bring in more money with “Backyard Wrestling” than with LOK: Defiance, and this is a disheartening reflection of the public audience. Alas, this is an old story with a long history and should hardly come as a surprise. What is surprising, however, is that despite the money to be made on superfluous sexuality and violence divorced and devoid of artistic content, a company like Crystal Dynamics is committed to producing a product of superior quality and value. Bravo once again to everyone involved with this worthwhile project.

Aureus
17th Nov 2003, 19:47
The game was absolutely perfect. I couldn't put it down and finished it 27 hours after I purchased it.

Great job!!

LordKain
17th Nov 2003, 21:17
only thing i wanna know is does Kain die?

blahblah45
18th Nov 2003, 02:25
I thought that the story was great. That is the prime reason i play the LOK games is im so hooked on the story.

However i did think the game had a few too many bugs for a released games. enemies getting trapped in doors or falling through the floor.

In addtion i greatly disliked the camera. In some areas you were completely unable to see where you were supposed to go and had to take blind leaps. Perfect example is when Raz is trying to get into the upper right part of Voradors mansion when he is going to revive Janos. when u shift on the first pillar Your viw of raz is 100% obscurred and you have no idea where you need to go and when u realize it it takes a blind leap and luck to hit the other pillar on the right side.

The free motion camera of S!1 SR2, BO2 is by far the best way to go.

Also my last bit of critisism. I thought the game was far too short (Finished the game in less than 8 hours) and far too centered on simply powering up the reavers. It seems like the only thing you really do power the reaver.

All in All a great game but i think mainly so because of story.

Omega Maximus
18th Nov 2003, 04:00
I really liked the little snippets of Odzar Midriashim in some of the fight scenes and the prologue. That song is a good choice for Kain

the dark one
18th Nov 2003, 11:58
LauraOrganaSolo, your review has got to be the best review that I have seen. One of the most enjoyable post that I have ever read. Just thought I would share my thoughts:D

Now on to the next actual review.

I loved the whole game even if the camera did give a nice big close up of a pillar or such just made the game more of a challenge. Really enjoyed the interactive Environments like stuff in vorador's mansion and the stone rails in the sarafan stronghold. The TK was also very enjoyable and a very cool new thing to do in game. I loved it when I was in voradors mansion I had an enemy that I was able to tk into the row of chairs and as it slid I got a nice side shot of it hitting and breaking each one. Like a lot of people have already said many praises to those that put voradors mansion together. It was both beautiful on the inside and outside, as well as the most fun to play in.

I liked how we got to play as the best looking kain and how each time he used his sword his moves where so dead on as he stepped and slashed. The underworld was also very cool all those screams and voices in the background were so cool and a great addition. I just hope that with these new codes we may get, that there is a way to set the game to refresh the enemies. It was so sad when all the enemies would be gone from a stage. But maybe this is a memory situation or a thing that would have taken more time to but in. As you can tell I don’t know much about making games and computer stuff.

I realized a large amount of the music. which is ok, if it is true as one member said it was a mix of both the blood omen series and soul reaver series. which I think is good since there may have been those that have not played all the games so now they got to hear something new, It also makes sense since this is the game that brings both raziel and kain together and I am sure it helped bring the game to us quicker since they didn't have to arrange a whole lot of new music.

The story as always was top notch even if I must admit I am still a little confused, but as long as the games keep coming out this is a good thing since it might make more sense later. oh what a sad day that will be when this series ends. NOOOO! I cant even think that right now.

I also really loved having a way to access the cut scenes as a part of the menu options . For one that must share the story with everyone I come in contact with this was a lot easier to do than to say “ Sit here as I get to a certain part so I can show you this scene.” The only things I would like to see next time is a way back to the cut scene menu without having to get the title screen, then the game file, then select the cut scene. It would be nice if there was a way to play them all at once or if it would automatically go back to the cut scene selection screen.

Also I don’t know if the next game will be a kain only or raziel only game or both somehow, but it would be nice if the was a way to access certain levels. Like even though it is kain you play as last you could still go back and play as raziel. which this is a minor thing since you just have to make sure that you save with raziel before you continue with kain. As it is now though there is no way to know who you play as last so you don’t know when or how often you need to save, but until I play the game all over again I can only play as kain and not raziel.

I look forward to seeing how CD is able to top this one and it is no wonder why CD was given the Tomb Raider Series, these people are the BEST!!!!!

KevinstyX
18th Nov 2003, 17:05
Hello Everyone.

My God. Greatest Chapter in the Series. I've been a die hard fan of these games since reading the earliest of previews for Blood Omen in Gamefan many moons ago. This game rocks. There's so much in terms of fan service and story its ridiculous. I loved how you FINALLY get to play as the Uber Kain from the SR games. The fact that they remembered to include little touches like his mist and bat forms were also friggin great.

Favorite moments are too many to list, but among them...

......Aerial's new look. I love how she now looks half rotted. The other designs looked a little TOO clean. Just half a skull. Here she looks like something from Silent Hill

...Turel. Ah, Turel. Its about time this was dealt with. Granted it did feel like they were just trying to get rid of this forum topic once and for all, but it was still so dang cool. I love how his design was kinda similar to original design. The bat ears and everything. Great Design and voice.

...Mortanius is cool. I still dont know what to think on the redesign. I'v heard many "mask" theories, but I'll have to check it out again. I looked once and it just looked like Mort was just closing his eyes, which made it look like hollow sockets. Again, I could be mistaken.

...Hash 'ak' Gik. Great to see they returned to this. I'm still not sure how I feel about Hash just being a way for the Hylden to control the humans by using Turel as a vessel pretending to be a dark god. I always thought it was much deeper than that. Like some Demon Overlord from the Exile Dimension orchestrating everything. Pretty original concept though. Kudos to the Defiance team for a great plot twist. It was great to hear Mortanius reciting part of that Blood Rite from BO1. Great Continuity.

...Mobius. I heard some people complain that he doesn't sound exactly the same as he did in SR2. This is true. But listen to Richard Doyle's take on Mobius in Blood Omen 1 compared to SR2. He sounds more like his Defiance Moebius in BO1 than in SR2. I guess it just depends on how the voice actor portrays him on that day. He sounded alot like Doyles portrayal of Pious Agustus from Eternal Dakness.

...The dual battle in Avernus rocked!! How great was it to play as Kain AND Raziel against each other!? Fans of both characters have it both ways. I nearly fell of my chair when Raz ripped the heart from Kain and sent him into the exile. I was like , "Not KAIN!!!"

...Raziels final fate. Truly a touching moment. "..and I...am not your enemy. Not your destroyer..." Man, I was so incredibly moved by this scene. Both Kain and Raz have been such great protagonists that it was truly a memorable scene to see one of them bid farewell. Raziel will be missed.

...You know, this is completly random but, has everyone played Metal Gear Solid 2? If not I'm sure everyone knows about Raiden. The pathetic surprise main character from that series. When asked, Kojima said that Raidens function was similar to Watsons role in the Sherlock Homes stories. To tell the story of Holmes from another characters perspective. Thinking about it, that's kind of what Raziel has been doing as well. Granted, Raz definalty has his own story. His own conflicts, His own personality, but alot of this functions in the same way.We see another version of Kains story thru the eyes of another character.

...Ariel's soul being taken into the reaver blade. Thanks for clearing this issue up guys.

...I really liked that they had a bunch of music from the other games in the series. Such as Raz's fight them with Kain, and Kains theme from Blood Omen 2.

...And also great how some of Blood Omen2's shady aspects were somewhat explained. Especially Janos' role. When I first played thru BO2, and made it to Janos' part in the story, I was like what the heck?! How?! Thankfully, this has been explained. I'm not even gonna touch the Vorador issue. That still stings...

...I am a tad dissapointed that the Hylden didnt play a more active part. I mean, it was cool that they possess dead bodies, and they possesse Turel and Mort, but I was hpoing to see an ACTUAL Hylden. Not counting those Demons, which I'm told are the current forms of them. If so, I guess I just answered my own statement.

Well, I guess I've ranted long enough. Again, Thanks for an excellent game guys! I look forward to the next Kain installment, and keep up the great work!!

-Kevinsty

jasonxxx
18th Nov 2003, 18:50
over all i loved the game however i do have one or two problems the first being the length of the game way to short but that is almost over come by the great story line. the next problem i have with it is the camera system at times it made certain actions very difficult to preform and it sometimes interferes with the combat. however this is over come by the great combat system in the game which is very much so improved over past lok games. the only other complaint is the end but now that i have beat it more than once i understand it better. so that is not a complaint any more ever thing else i loved

SumGuy
19th Nov 2003, 02:10
Sorry everyone but I have to say that this game is a HUGE DISAPPOINTMENT!!!! From reading the threads it looks like everyone thought the story was really great.........if you can actually get to it. I just brought the game and I have to say it ranks right up there with the worst games I've ever played. I've been trying to get out of the cemetary with Raziel for 2 days now and all I have to say is where is the high jump ability. If I had that I could actually reach the platforms to get the Light and Dark soul reaver power-ups so I could get out of the cemetary! I usually rent every game before I buy it to avoid this kind of disappointment, unfortunately I bought this one just because I loved the other games in the series. I guess shame on me for believing that Eidos would deliver on this installment. The camera angles are some of the worst I've ever seen in any game. I will be getting rid of this game at the first opportunity. I can't believe that a series this good could go down hill so far that a person is stuck in a beginning area for 2 days. I have to say that I absolutely hate this game. :mad: I would have loved to see how the story came out, but the god aweful game play and camera angles have made it completely impossible to advance the storyline. I'll just read the forums and see how the story came out and rid myself of this terrible title that is unworthy of the license. If there is one thing I learned from this it is that a potentially great franchise can be completely ruined by one subpar game. I guess Eidos will be laughing all the way to bank because I was dumb enough to spend my money on this crappy game. That's ok. I won't buy another of their titles without thoughly checking it out first (if at all). So for anyone who is thinking about buying this game- RENT IT FIRST!!! You'll find out that it just not worth buying.

A very disappointed fan.

Buz
19th Nov 2003, 02:59
The plot and voice acting are probably the best I've seen yet and I enjoyed it much more than even the first Blood Omen installment. After completing the game I can say that it was very entertaining to see where the story took me and to finally get my answers. I was also disheartened to see such poor reviews of this game on certain websites, since it was undeserving of such ridicule.

However, there are many points that review puts forth that I agree with and will (with all love you understand) mention:

1. First and foremost, while the gameplay is much faster paced that previous installments, and much more entertaining, it is still very much only a vehicle to move the plot around. Though the enemies look different there is no need to fight any of them differently... the final form of the hylden revenant towards the end of Raziel's adventure are slightly different, but one still can hack away and be done with it... On a lighter note the reaver spells and TK powers were a fond inclusion in the game, and great steps have been taken in the combat though some of these steps fell right in the pitfalls that many new action games have fallen into these days. I will give advice below for how to escape these.

2. The camera had faults... I know, I know, ALL cameras have faults these days, but there were times when this one was particularly irretating. The right analog and FPS view was helpful, but more could've been done.

3. Slight superficial details such as the Dark Chronicle resetting to the main menu when you play a scene was fairly annoying, and I imagine could've been easily fixed with a little more testing.


That's it... otherwise a great game, not deserving of a 6.9 or whatever it was... certainly no 10 either, no offense, I'd give it a 7.7...
To fix these problems is simple... The addition of the quick reaver change feature provides an excellent opportunity to create enemies that are immune/absorb certain elements of the reaver and constantly switching the reaver to fight different enemies in one battle could've greatly improved combat. Also a feature of charging the reaver more quickly and keeping the "in combat" charge when you switch reavers could add to the above solution. Angrier, more agressive AI would also have provided a challenge that would improve gameplay.

As for the camera, apart from fixing minor clipping glitches, adding a feature that makes solid forms transparent when fighting behind them would reduce irritation 10-fold.

You have here the outline for a truly great game engine... perhaps you merely did not have enough space on the dvd to make too many more changes to combat and keep the in-game cutscenes going, and believe me, I understand... and these criticisms are STRICTLY constructive. I truly enjoyed this game, but I feel no need to overly flatter you, I call it like I see it, and this is what I saw: A great first attempt at a new style of gameplay for this series that ultimately made as many mistakes as it did innovations. I hope to see this engine used again, yet slightly tweaked to create another wonderful installment to this series... No offense was meant in this review, and I wish you the greatest of luck in future games!

Zephonsfate
19th Nov 2003, 07:40
One word, followed by others.....AWESOME.....Thanks CD. I can remember no other game this fun when I started to play it and that includes the other Legacy of Kain games as well. I thought I might have a hard time with the camera since I really like the style of cameras in games like Mario, Zelda, and past kain games where you can center the camera behind your character at most any time. However, I can say after playing through Kain's first chapter that I will be able to get used to this more quickly than I thought. So far, I really am enjoying it. I am trying to pace myself so I don't play through it in one day or two. I do like the spectral underworld and how they did it, but I could see this getting annoying if one was stuck in there for too long. No wonder the Elder God is insane :)

Well, I just want to say thanks to CD and Eidos for this game. I will truly enjoy it and I think it will have some good replay value. One thing I noticed and It may be me. Mobeius' voice work seems a little different. Perhaps the voice actor had a cold or something, or maybe it was his tone that was off. No biggie, just an observation.

Lady_D
19th Nov 2003, 14:12
I loved all the cinematics between Raz and Kain, but there was another one that I really liked. The one of the Reunion between Raz and Turel was awesome! I loved that last line...."Time to run. Time to scream. Time to die...."

Reaverblade
19th Nov 2003, 20:29
alright:
A) THIS GAME OWNS







B)THERE NEEDS TO BE ANOTHER







C)you guy need to chill out on "this is a plot hole.......EXPLAIN IT"...part of the beauty of a game with time travel as involved as this is that there are no real plot holes....just twists that havent been addressed....im sure the BO2 designers(damn them for making such a bad game...though i sure as hell couldnt do it) had the whole Vorador issue in mind when they made it....im just wondering how and why:

Turel was soooo friggin evolved and back a few hundred years....i understand it was the hilden but obviously if Mortanius is worshipping him as a God that means Turel has been there for possibly centuries maybe even millenia...what would be the purpose he seemed to do nothing except be there as an obstacle for Raz...it seems as if the designers threw him in last minute in order to quiet Turel fans as to what happened...its a bit weird....and annoying..but i must say the ending of the game it self was amazing....the only thing is...how will Kain restore balance?

the game better not take more than a year or so

kainman
19th Nov 2003, 22:59
psm mag gave lok def an eight out of ten but a month ago gave castlevania a 9 i think lok should get at least a 9

foetus
20th Nov 2003, 16:21
Wow... this was SUCH a great game. I finally beat it last night, and my final opinion is this: The camera SUCKS. It very nearly spoils the game at certain points. Also... where the heck are my CG movies? Yes, the in-game engine looks pretty, and maybe if was built exclusively for the XBox, it could have been CLOSE... but nothing is more rewarding than seeing your favorite characters fully rendered...

Other than those two points, I thought it was a fantastic game, even though I always thought the Blood Omen series (Kain's story) should have remained more RPG-like. With so many CRAPPY story lines becoming movies (Resident Evil, Tomb Raider, House of the Dead), it certainly makes me wonder why the LoK series hasn't seen film yet. Or at least a DVD with all of the CG cutscenes. Other than System Shock 1&2, I think it's the greatest video game story of all time.

hippiechk
22nd Nov 2003, 01:09
Ha, been away for a while, but I also posted my glowing review on gfaqs (http://www.gamefaqs.com/console/ps2/review/R64097.html).

The only things I left out of my review, were the things I missed.
Glyphs - they were so freaking cool in SR!
The use of other weapons.
And a map.

But I consider this very minor as their absence did not detract from the overall game experience.

Defiance is, by far, the best video game ever. It was everything I hoped for, expected, and more. I can't thank you enough for this stunning gem!

folkart2000
23rd Nov 2003, 05:08
:cool:

man... this made it all clear...... I've followed this story from the begining.
Well, i'm sure there are a few questions. but to me....most questions were answered.

loved the story line, but wished there were better "movie-like" graphics. some scenes were too pix......

I'ld love to play a game that had more "final fantasy" 'the movie' graphics. I know I'm asking alot........just dreaming for the ultimate game!

steve

ps loose the puzzles

Zephonsfate
23rd Nov 2003, 09:21
Loose the puzzles? Do you mean "Lose" the puzzles or Loose as in make more of them or make them easier?

As for the puzzles in Defiance, they were all the easiest in the series yet. Even easier then finding the wall switches in BO1. My suggestion is they get more for the next one. One thing that is beginning to bother me about Defiance is that all the reaver forges seem to be the same. Lament of Innocence suffered from this repetative design as well. However, you could imagine that the reason the shrines all look the same is because the architect was the same for all. Example, Wal-mart. Walmart stores all look the same accross the US. The only major difference is whether or not it is a super Wal-mart. Occasionally you will find things in different ends of the store, but the color scheme and basic floor plan is generally the same. So, with that in mind, the structures may have looked similar because they were a "francise":)

kongg
24th Nov 2003, 01:49
Bought the game, ripped apart the wrapping and loaded it onto the PS2.

Impressions so far
Good- Awesome graphics
- Smashing combat esp the TK!!!
- Continuation of LOK "feel/atmosphere"

Bad - Irritating camera.

DestinyOfKain
27th Nov 2003, 00:14
(hi everyone, I'm new here).

anyways, the game and storyline were intense!

I love how the ending leaves you with a "what if", you know?
(sorry if I say anything spoiling, I don't know how to censure spoilers yet).. I mean, I love how it leaves you right at the beginning of the decay of Nosgoth, and yet, it leaves you questioning the circle of fate. I mean, look at it, Raziel is in the sword, and Kain now possess it. Did the story just end in a paradoxical moment, or did they truly alter time.

I love all those small touches as well, with the murals on the walls, seeing Turel, seeing the Hilden emerge into Nosgoth, all of it. Then we see how Janos manages to survive after all these years, and see him in Blood Omen 2.

I really hope CD doesn't end the series like this, because this ending leaves it open for a sequel, as well as closing it for a conclusion.

blah, I hate the fact I beat the game within 4 days of starting it. This is definitely my favorite series so far..

btw...can anyone post pics of Raziel's clan symbol..I'd love to print one out and put it in my poem book.

Raziel02
27th Nov 2003, 00:27
Heya,

There's a great site with lots of LoK info and a good image of all the clan symbols - it's where I got Raz's symbol for my tattoo.

It's the Lost Worlds at

http://www.thelostworlds.net/

It's very well done with lots of great stuff on it.

Glad you enjoyed the game.....and now we play the next game - the waiting game....*sigh*


Raziel02

InfinitelyVast
27th Nov 2003, 02:42
I finished the game tonight and I must say I'm extremely happy. I like the camera movement, I felt it made the game interesting.

The story is amazing and I am completely impressed by the writing.

No complaints whatsoever. Ready for the next game in the series!

Jesse

Omega
27th Nov 2003, 19:22
At first I was a little dismayed at the lack of SR1 style Glyphs, but now that I've seen the Reaver Spells in action - I can only say 'WOW' over and over again, like a giddy little school-girl.

Graphics, lack of bugs (good work Chris :)), storyline (good work Ms Hennig :)), and of course music (good work Jim, Mike, and Kurt :)), and naturally, anyone else I've missed out (say 98%? ;)).

Seriously though, all the Defiance team have done such a great job on this game, I can only offer my soul on a platter for you fine folks.

At the beginning of the game, and if I'm perfectly honest... I was a little upset that there was no new/original music for the game, but that soon changed as all of my old favorites where resurrected, dusted, and re-mastered. Very, very nice work folks - I really do hope you release an Official Soundtrack :)

The camera angle was a little daunting at first. It does take a little getting used to, but most of the time it's like the other games anyway, apart from when you turn corners or something. I don't get why people complain about it. It doesn't hide specific things that are important. And even if it does, then it's a secret for you to discover :p

Voice Acting. Wow! I loved the out-takes. Please CD, if theres another game, please add more in. They where absolutely hilarious! As for the normal in-game acting, I can only offer my thanks, hugs and soul once again to all the cast. They've done brilliant jobs so far and wish them the best of luck if there arn't any more Legacy of Kain games :)

Although with an ending like Defiance... I bloody well hope so!

Combat. Yeah it's been re-designed again, but I must say I'm impressed. Although I was purely in the game for the story, the combat system was very easy, and now I can't get bouncing my enemies off the floor over and over out of my head.

The Reavers. Wow! Kain's Reaver enhancements ruled! Raziel's we're cool too, but I must say, very nice design work folks. Am I wrong in saying one was dropped? Because when I played the demo at Playstation Experiance, there where five empty slots on the SELECT menu, and that's excluding the normal Reaver...

In conclusion (I'll add more later, I have to rush to work), a very lovely and epic game Crystal Dynamics. As with the voice actors, if there isn't any more released, I wish each and every one of you my blessings :)

Edit
I forgot to say (well, I did ish), it was great to hear Ozar again! A big thrill went down my spine when that song played. I also flapped about with massive amounts of excitement like a little girl when it first came on.

Thanks CD, my mum had the Camcorder out ;) :p :)

Goddess of Nosgoth
28th Nov 2003, 16:44
Originally Posted by KevinstyX :


...Raziels final fate. Truly a touching moment. "..and I...am not your enemy. Not your destroyer..." Man, I was so incredibly moved by this scene. Both Kain and Raz have been such great protagonists that it was truly a memorable scene to see one of them bid farewell. Raziel will be missed.


Posted by Jashugan:


Raziel's contentment at being Kain's "right hand" once again, and Kain's reaction to Raziel's choice.


Posted by LauraOrganaSolo:


The best part of Defiance, hands down, is seeing Kain's attitude towards Raziel. Ever since Soul Reaver 1 I have been INSISTING that Kain is not evil and that his attitude towards Raziel is not that of a jealous, petty tyrant but that of a paternal figure, remorseful and rueful for having to do what is necessary to ensure his very existance. Defiance proves what I've been saying all along.
Although I managed not to shed tears this time, I was SO touched by Raziel's last scene with Kain. I may be a total geek with video games and sci-fi/fantasy but when it comes down to the line, I am a pathetic female stereotype. *laughs* I felt like shouting "AWWWW!!!" and hugging something.
"I am what I have always been, your right hand, your sword." Kain's disbelieving, desperate pleas almost brought me to tears, and yes, I know it sounds goofy but it was just thrilling. =D Just fantastic. *cartwheels* If I had the money, I swear on my life I'd be writing out commission checks right this minute for Esoteric and Chibi J to both do pieces depicting this scene (if Chibi J weren't so busy right now, anyway ). If this had been a month ago, I WOULD try to commission something. >_<


Posted by Bluevervain:


Kain has always more or less been an arrogant, evil-and-proud-of-it antihero...he even says, (with amusing irony) that he's been been called 'heartless'--and yet his concern for Raziel and his fate throughout his chapters, and his anguish at Raziel's final decision, is palpable, and beautifully written and portrayed. Not overblown, not under-played. Just...amazing.


Posted by Raziel02:


The fact we were able to fight as both Kain and Raziel verus eachother? Brilliant! The ending scene between Kain and Raziel? Still gets me misty. The way the characters were interwoven -
I was concerened when Raziel confronted Kain in the cathedral. I LOVED the twist of Raziel killing Kain instead of Kain killing Raziel because we (my friends and I) had all been sure it would have unfolded the latter way, not former. I was distraught at his regression to a paranoid child during the fight, but I have tried to explain to my friends that his eyes had been glowing, had energy trails of a blue/green variety, indicating Raziel was not quite himself at the time.
And really, who could blame the poor soul after all he has been through. He hasn't run into one being his whole unlife who had not betrayed him or used him in one way or another. He even betrayed himself in a way when he discovered the type of person he had been when had lived. Even though one can argue Kain's actions at the beginning of SR1 were of a person who was doing the job fate required him too - it was still nothing short of betrayal for the Vampire Raziel as he approached his benevolent leader all those years ago, before being sentenced to an eternity of agony by the one he trusted so and not even knowing the true reason why.
All Raziel's interactions with Kain after that were marred by that one very precise incident (and the constant reminder being Raziel's current form and prediciment - hardly something anyone could forget). Kain had been used and betrayed much like Raziel (having been betrayed by his first set of underlings, having to kill his own potential queen - all in BO2, not to mention the entire story of BO1). And while surprised when he found himself in the position at the end of the battle in Avernon where Raziel had ripped out his heart, he had seen it coming in the sense, if only for a moment before his "demise". When the realization of how it must look to Raziel when Raziel's essensce was been drawn from his animated corpse and imprisoned in the Reaver was forefront on Kain's mind - as evident by his cautionary plea..."Raziel...No..", he knew how it would play out. Yet in the end Kain survived despite all odds, Raziel exercised his free will, and he was able to fullfill his destiny, giving his soul to Kain so that Kain may then in turn fulfill his own true destiny. Raziel had forgiven Kain, and Kain knew at that moment that there had been at least one truely loyal being to grace his life, unspoiled by plots and innduendo - guided only by loyalty, respect, enough sense to see his place in the larger picture and enough character to accept the sacrifice fate required of him. Kain had found in his "co-conspirator against fate" a loyal servant, an abstract version of a son, and dare we say it - a friend. I'm not sure that's a word Kain had ever been able to use in his lifetime. It's even sadder to realize that the moment they both realized the connection they shared was the same moment when they realize they will never meet in such a way ever again. Just tears you up inside, doesn't it?
But every time I get a little misty at how the story unfolds (and kick myself, because at the end of the day we all should have realized this moment was inevitable - how can the series exist if Raziel did not return to the reaver?) I just think back at the first time I ever truely saw Kain smile, that moment when he looked down into the Elder's pit and saw Mobius standing there. How beautiful was it that not only Kain, but Raziel too got their revenge upon that coniving bastard? True poetry.


Posted By the dark one:
Also I don’t know if the next game will be a kain only or raziel only game or both somehow, but it would be nice if the was a way to access certain levels. Like even though it is kain you play as last you could still go back and play as raziel. which this is a minor thing since you just have to make sure that you save with raziel before you continue with kain. As it is now though there is no way to know who you play as last so you don’t know when or how often you need to save, but until I play the game all over again I can only play as kain and not raziel.


Posted by Lady_D:


I am at the last battle and.....

I can't beat the EG yet but thats not what i am here to discuss. Wonderful story but.........I am really upset about Raz! I mean, thats it he just gets sucked into the reaver. How awful! Raz is the best character ever developed. He can't be gone. I hope that he is back in the next story somehow, or I will probably not be buying another LOK game. I'm not trying to be a jerk It's just a fact that I buy the game because he's it it. Chris, PLEEAASE tell me Raz will find a way back in the next game!


In reponse to Lady_D, Slyther posts:


keep in mind raziel IS the reaver, as he says before he gets sucked in, he belongs there, hes not an actual being like other ppl in the world, hence how in the story how he has free will, he is just the spirit of the soul reaver... he was/is a great character tho, but as i said, he is the sword, he belongs in it, and remember its not legacy of raziel... kain has always been the main character




-----------------------------------------------------------------------



My reponse to all the above posts^^
^^
Yes, It was so heart touching:o :( ...I loved the ending of the game and hated it at the same time. I Love how Kain and Raziel both get their revenge on Moebius and how finally they are together again. And yet I hate the ending because of Raziel's sacrifice, It was so depressing, but happy at the same time. The way Kain and Raziel's love and trust for each other is finally mended, but then Raziel insists on sacrificing himself for Kain. You can just feel the emotions Kain and Raziel are experiencing, the sorrow in Kain's voice in Raziel's dramatic decision. I really hope that in the next game Raziel will return. Regardless of the title "Legacy of Kain" The Defiance Trailor states "Two Legaendary Characters, One Shared Legacy". :D Perhaps Raziel will return in the next game playable within the Reaver Blade, in an atempt to escape his terrible destiny. Then maybe, when he does escape His soul his projected into the sarafan Raziel's corpse, being resurrected by Kain as a vampire?! Except now that fate has been altered, Kain finally has an empire in an uncorrupted Nosgoth, with each of his leutinants as a pillar guardian?? Just a thought...^^
Anything's possible
:rolleyes: :) :D
(*WHEW!*)

"That's alot of line you got there"-Michael Bell

Black Wraith
29th Nov 2003, 17:45
The game was above all AWESOME!!! I loved how it ended. and I am hoping for the sequel to come sometime before the PS3 is shipped.

Raziel died. That was sad. And for a second there, I though Kain was dead too. But what really blew my mind was now, the Hylden may have full potential in overruling Nosgoth

Omega
30th Nov 2003, 18:32
Raziel did not die. His soul still lingers inside the Soul Reaver.

And I can only echo want Goddess of Nosgoth said, that Raziel speech was very touching. Took me by surprise at least!

Dragonkid
30th Nov 2003, 20:41
Straight to the point, Legacy of Kain: Defiance is (and forever will be) one of the best games I have ever played. I have been a fan of the series ever since I played Blood Omen and Defiance has not dashed my hopes.

My only big criticism, which seems to be one of the main ones around here was the camera. It was quite difficult in traversing certain areas that required gliding on Raziel's part, such as

the pillars in Vorador's Mansion's courtyard

and, with Kain

in the Sarafan era, trying to climb up the rocks that lead you to the piece of the Balance emblem

However, camera aside and a few, very few, glitches with combat, Defiance was excellent. Crystal Dynamics, we all thank you.

The story has always been the main thing that drew me in, as it has with a slew of people I know, and this time was no exception. Of course

the ending cinema, as Raziel's soul is being absorbed into the Reaver, I was one of those who was getting a little down-hearted and misty eyed. Raziel has always been a staple part of the series and he will be missed (even if he is in the Reaver).

However

Vorador's and Janos Audron's appearances were pure joy and elation for me. I'm a big fan of both of the vampires (as I am with Kain and Raziel) and to see them once again make an appearance in the series was great. I was also glad to see the entire Janos Audron alive in Blood Omen 2 problem cleared up. Vorador? *whistles innocently* Won't go there...

and

ole' Moebius finally getting what he deserved. Kain kills him in the Physical Realm, YAY! Raziel kills him in the Spectral Realm! BOOYA!

and

Turel...we finally find out what happened to him. No more searching! No more questions...

The music was also something I loved, kudos to Kurt.

Giving Kain and Raziel their own theme songs in the versus battle in Avernus Cathedral was great.

And, of course, being able to play as both Kain and Raziel was more fun than I could have asked for. Staying up until 3 a.m. and feeling my contacts fuse to my eyes was so worth it.

Finally, the bonus features at the end after you complete the game.

Lifted my spirits, they did. I was pretty upset after seeing Raziel being absorbed into the Reaver, but a couple of outtakes, and I was doing okay.

Well...there's my two cents worth. Lots of spoilers, but I'm not taking any chances of ruining the story for anybody else. It is best to discover the story for yourself, no matter how badly your hand itches to highlight the "Spoiler" pieces... ;) Major congratulations to Crystal Dynamics and Amy Henning! Cannot wait for the next installment of the Legacy of Kain series!

keepittrue
1st Dec 2003, 11:47
First, I would like to say Hello to everyone, I have'nt been here in a while.
Second, I want to say OMG:eek: , THANK YOU CD for making a Superb video game/series. I was completely overwhelmed by the infinitely improved gameplay(combat and secrets), the revised classic scores in previous Lok installments(loved each one even more this time around), and let me not forget about the excellent storyline that left me in disbelief a few times.

If I were to rank this game, I'd give it a 9.75, 2nd in my all time fav. games(SR1 ranked 1st because it brought me to this series).
Although there were a few things I would have done differenly(ahem the battle at the end, I almost cant accept his defeat after all those long, hard fought battles in each game, just my personal pet peev). However I do realize how hard it is to make a series fit that didnt start in you guys' vision. The game is so good I havent put it down since I bought it, which was the day it came out.

Instant classic among games, I loved it. I hope you guys dont end the LoK series just yet, you know maybe a few side games like on how the diff clans were during Kains rule.
Keep up the great work and thanks.

Crimson_Pain
1st Dec 2003, 21:02
Well Goddess of Nosgoth, your entitled to your own opinion but i'm entitled to mine. So i have to say that i strongly disagree with you. Raziel is like every other person if not more, he has free will, and his character is loved by many. To say that he is JUST the spirit of the reaver is JUST WRONG, and he doesn't stay in the reaver forever. His spirit was freed when the soul reaver shatter and his future self is bound to his past self as the wraith blade then he is bound to Kain, curing him of his corruption and where he goes from there is anybody's guest.

His is a tragic story of a fallen hero not some worthless soul stuck inside a weapon.

Raziel02
2nd Dec 2003, 00:58
Originally posted by Crimson_Pain

His is a tragic story of a fallen hero...(cut)[/B]

Right to the heart of his character. Kain could never stand atop the world at the end of the story and be the epic hero he was destined to be if he didn't have Raziel's shoulders to stand on...

*toasts* Here's to the tragic heroes - sacrificing so much, making all the difference, yet receiving so little thanks for all they have done...


Raziel02

LordKain
3rd Dec 2003, 01:49
Ok well i just finished the game and only compilant i have is the Kain levels are not long enuff, i never had trouble with the camera never got in my way i thought the camera was perfect i was abit worried hearing about how bad the camera is and how it gets in ur way well it never got in my way once! and i do not think this is the last game cuz janos got away he wasnt defeated neither was the elder god really so i think we will see more LOK games and i cant wait! i love this game so much im actually playing it through again lol

Divine Soul
3rd Dec 2003, 04:22
Ok, I finished the game last week (been too busy to post) and I have nothing bad to say about this game. This game was soooo much fun to play. The Camera was great! A little hard to get used to at first but after you figure it out.... it rules! Playing Kain was a cool part of this game. The combat was amazing, graphics were amazing, and as always the story was supurb. Keep up the good work CD you guys should be proud of this one. Now I'm gonna go start playing it again :)

Lord Alucard
3rd Dec 2003, 05:40
This is gotta be the best of the whole series of the LOK series. Leaving the " Fate Abhore a Paradox" ending in the Soul Reaver 2 ending which lead to the final fatal outcome of the LOK Defience totally blow me away. Nice camera Point of view, New fighting engine place the whole LOK world to life. Well The ending has been seen and i'm sure there will be another installation of the Legacy Of Kain Series. So what will it be. What has CD installed for us? Oh i can't wait for the Next chapter of the Epic. Jus give them to us. Anyway Nice work CD. Keep the Series going.

Secret of God
7th Dec 2003, 06:05
Originally posted by folkart2000
:cool:

loved the story line, but wished there were better "movie-like" graphics. some scenes were too pix......

I'ld love to play a game that had more "final fantasy" 'the movie' graphics. I know I'm asking alot........just dreaming for the ultimate game!

steve



Hmm. I actually thought that Defiance had better graphics than any FF ever released, in every way, shape, and form. But perhaps that's just me.

fneh
7th Dec 2003, 15:16
I've completed defiance and couldn't be happier with it. It's everything I was expecting and so much more. I'm currently on my 2nd play through and and taking my time this time, fighting as often as possible.

The much talked about camera was quite god to start with then began to annoy me. After a few more levels I began to enjoy the camera again. Once you get used to the nudging the camera about it's actually a very impressive camera.

The graphics are among the best I've seen on my PS2. They're fantastic. Raziel could not POSSIBLY look any cooler. The downloadable moves and screenshots do not do this game justice. The animation is great and the facial animation is much improved over SR2s. Sadly though the enemies do not have facial movement. There are 2 cutscenes where the enemy groups talk to raziel (when he first meets each particular group and their moughs do not move. It's like the old PSone stlle make the head bob about and pretend their moughs are moving.

the gameplay is great. The scenery is smashable (and what fun it is to hurl an enemy through a tombstone or into a pile of old wooden boxes). Setting enemies on fire is something I will never tire of. Hearing them scream while running about never fails to put a sadistic smile across my face (especially when they set their friends on fire too!). Throwing enemies off cliffs is equally good fun; especially with Kain on the early levels.

The number of cutscenes is very well balanced. Unlike in SR2 when raziel would stop to comment on EVERYTHING in Defiance it's done much better and often you can still move him about while he talks (ala BO1).

Using Kain is a LOT of fun. It's amazing how good he is. Turning to mist when you push through bars is great and his magic he can use is fun too. NOTHING beats his TK ability though.

Raziel looks better then ever and has a much improved attitude in defiance. He's no longer the whiny teenager he was in SR2. He's much more grown up and enjoyable to play as.

In combat I often found myself not using the special moves for each reaver. I prefered to just beat everyone senseless with a more powerful reaver (that made a better sound effect too) then unleash a reaver weakening special attack.

The music was sadly, all old stuff. Much of it taken from SR1. I would have liked to hear some new stuff too.


Of course, like all games it does have some faults. there are a lot of minor bugs throughout the game. I ran into boulders blocking a door at one point (I didn't get through the other side but could hide inside the boulders as if they weren't there at all) and even managed to knock an enemy into the floor at one point. He died shortly after of course. :D I once fell into the endless grey using Kain but I just saved the game and resstarted from my last checkpoint. They are, thankfully very well placed so little retracing your footsteps is required (and enemies you killed along the way are still dead and puzzles don't need soving again. A great touch IMO)

Anyway, I'll finish by saying that anyone that doesn't own this game really shouldn't do without it in their collection. No game collection is complete without it

c_poussard
11th Dec 2003, 05:15
This is at the END of the game




So now we see that Kain is there when the pillars begin to crumble..ie when he dies in Blood Omen 1...


When Kain dies ( start of BO1 ) ...then gets ressurrected by mortanius... then Kain will eventually turn all the dead sarafan ...including raziel .. to vampires..

they all evolve... raziel is first....kain realises this and orders his vampires to throw raziel into the pit

1000 years later raziel wakes up to find he's trapped into the will of the elder god ....etc

Then raziel and kain fight at the end of SR1 resulting in kain and raz going back in time to before the pillars crumble

Raz then gets the soul reaver ripped out of him at the end of SR2 ...500 years later he wakes up and escapes (start of defiance) from the elder god's cave under the pillars

Kain gets sent by Mobius 500 years in the future so he can meet up with raz and fight him......so mobius has kain or raz killed...so mobius thinks he's won :) ...kain is the balance guardian because ariel is now dead... so he doesnt die when the heart is out of him

in the end raz goes into the soul reaver and kain watches the PILLARS crumble!

so the future is now up to Kain...theres no Ariel(or any other pillar guardians-thanks to Raz), no Mobius(raz again), no Mortanius(go KAIN!), no Tyrel (raz u rock dude!), no other vampires except Vorador(maybe-did Mobius really kill him ???), no RAZIEL (NOOO!!)
....just KAIN, the HYLDEN, VORADOR, JANOS(possesed by hylden)

so its alternate future that Kain has to look forward to ...the coin that lands on its edge... what kain wanted all along.. a second chance ...i wonder what he'll do with it ....and what he'll do to protect it!


So now we see that Kain is there when the pillars begin to crumble..ie when he dies in Blood Omen 1...does this mean that soul reaver 1 never happened?

Janos of Uschtenheim
12th Dec 2003, 05:40
Here's a little diddy I did for the gaming section of an open forum, copied and pasted with a bit of editing so as not to make it sound too much like a magazine review ^.^; :



GamePlay

Playing as Kain, the game goes into some lovely battle sequences were you gain experience and learn some new (and rather simple) combo moves. Kain can also drain the blood from his enemies, as before, only now after vanquishing your enemy, Kain can pick them up and ravage their throats complete with your victim gurgling and choking in response. Passing though gates instantly with a temporary mist form saddened me though since I was fond of the stealthy kill, but getting to throw enemies about with telekenisis that you can control with the directional stick... hearing them scream as they fall to their deaths. A wonderful replacement, I must say.
Kain's bat form has returned since it's first debut in Blood Omen: Legacy of Kain as your means of long distance travel, complete with low to the ground rolling of the country side as your loading screen. Sadly, it's only accessible a few times for story progression.
Kain's story isn't without a few puzzles though, consisting of obtaining crests for your Soul Reaver blade that boost it up nicely with four elemental powers and allow you to cast spells. At least he has the claws to pull side to side now.

Gameplay as Raziel switches from the bloodthirsty battle-mode to puzzle mode like like that of the Soul Reaver games. The puzzles, mainly in the areas where you imbue your Reaver with a new power, can be excedingly long and thusly makes gameplay with Raziel seem much longer. Raziel can also cast spells (Four more than Kain to be exact), one of them even turning him invisable for a decent amount of time.
Raziel also gains experience and learns new combo moves (Yes, I like this EXP thing, though it's a little too easy to get the new moves), he is also now able to scale climable walls in the Etheral Realm. Switching between there and the Material Realm is not nearly needed as often as the other games thankfully and the new (and quite creative) way of shifting is a nice surprise.
But getting lost in Raziel's large levels only gets easier, however.

It's funny to pick out some of the obvious differences between them now too. As you switch between them, you notice that since Kain can take far more hits and deal more damage then Raziel, our muscled vampire is conciderably slower, especially when climbing (Only half of Raziel's speed!)

Graphics

The graphics in whole are simply beautiful; full rendered areas, deeply detailed characters, and fluid movements. The only problem is the camera angles, another problem the series seemed to have. You no longer can pivot the camera to where you want it and it now limits you to only moving the camera from side to side and a first-person view you can't even walk around in.
(For those who read this previously, the glitches I had mentioned were due to the fact that my PS2 skips ::kicks PS2:: )

Sound

The music.. ahh, the music. There aren't very many new compositions, but the music of the game is all of the tracks from the previous games remastered and blend perfectly with the situations.
The voices are all the same still for the characters since the first release of the series, all crisp in both in-game and movie scenes and wonderfully performed.

Storyline

::stands with her mouth gaping open:: It leaves me breathless and wanting more every single time. I just can't find the words to describe it other than "oustandingly beautiful".

Extras

Legacy of Kain: Defiance continues with the Extras and Dark Cronical options they started with in Soul Reaver 2. Features like character concept drawings, outtakes, and looks into the older games and how they differed will be available. The Dark Cronical now features the replay of the movie scenes insted of just the script.

Score (1 being bad, 5 being best)

Gameplay: 5
Graphics: 4 (only because of the camera)
Sound: 5
Replay Value: 2 // Reason: The game took me a rough 15 hours or so to complete after purchase and that includes watching the FMV scenes, getting lost, and dying. Also, once the game is beaten you get all the bonus's no matter how many tomes you collected in the game, and it's not difficult to remember what was done where and how once you've done it.
Overall: 4.5

Reviewer's Comments:- I am a huge fan of the Blood Omen/Soul Reaver series and this is another beauty to add to my collection. The voice acting and movie scenes are, and always have been, the most powerful parts of the series and Defiance takes that aspect even higher with the eloquent speech and powerful emotions. I am eagerly awaiting the next installment and praying for even more.

Reviewer's Crits:- Must... have... more... replay value! Stuff in some extra modes, more secrets, Time Attack, anything!! That and the camera would be so much nicer if the player could tweak it slightly and still have the cinematic feel, just so we can see in those "odd spots".

Whew... that took longer to edit than I thought... I hope I got it all.

Kliikaibunny
13th Dec 2003, 22:01
I just finished LoK: D, and the graphics coupled with wonderful voice casting made for a truly enjoyable and completely immersable experience! Thanks to all those who worked so hard to create a wonderful gaming experience!:D

Cerulean
22nd Dec 2003, 20:04
Man, that was a great game! I'm kinda sad now, though. One reason is because I'm finished the game and I so want to know more of the story. The other reason is...

Raziel is gone. I so liked him. :( Do you think there is any chance he can come back? Probably not, but one can only hope. And of course there has to be another game. Kain has to go kick the butt of Hylden-possessed Janos!

How long do we have to wait for the next game???

Cerulean

Tesla
22nd Dec 2003, 20:25
Originally posted by Cerulean
Man, that was a great game! I'm kinda sad now, though. One reason is because I'm finished the game and I so want to know more of the story. The other reason is...

Raziel is gone. I so liked him. :( Do you think there is any chance he can come back? Probably not, but one can only hope. And of course there has to be another game. Kain has to go kick the butt of Hylden-possessed Janos!

How long do we have to wait for the next game???

Cerulean

Janos is already addressed in BO2. BO2 "Spoiler" below
Kain frees Hylden-possessed Janos in BO2. BO2 happens chronologically AFTER this, but that is with young Kain.

what's going to happen in the next game is something with Elder Kain.

aznxdarkxromeo
23rd Dec 2003, 00:05
I personally think Defiance is better then the SOul reaver series.
When I think back to those two games...all that comes in my mind is hours of running around moving blocks and turning switches. Not that the games sucks, its great. But it lacks a bit of everything else. Defiance on the other hand, didn't focus al that much on the puzzles so people won't get fustrated and want to throw up after getting dizzy by the camera. The action part of the game iz way better then all the other games of the series. But it could use a bit more combos. After few days, the combos doesn't seem all that addictive anymore. But overall, the game is great. The graphic is the best I seen all year. BUt the next game really got to try fix the camera problem.

Goddess of Nosgoth
23rd Dec 2003, 14:59
I never said Raziel was just a soul...that was Slyther's post I was responding to. My reponse to all of these posts are at the very bottom, last paragraph. Sorry for the confusion...:confused: :rolleyes:

Majestros
23rd Dec 2003, 21:37
Hey guys. Just wanna say great job on yet another quality LoK game.

My review of the game is posted at VidOp, a site that caters to hardcore fighting game players worldwide. So maybe my compliments will encourage some of my friends in the US and Europe to pick up the game when it's released.

http://www.video-opera.com/reviews/lokd/

Also, what's up with the teamdefiance email address in the Webrings part of the website? I tried sending an email and just got 550 error. Has it changed?

Umah Bloodomen
23rd Dec 2003, 22:45
Originally posted by Majestros
Also, what's up with the teamdefiance email address in the Webrings part of the website? I tried sending an email and just got 550 error. Has it changed?

This is the first I've heard of an error of that nature. I'll go ahead and pass the information along.

Thanks. :)

Majestros
25th Dec 2003, 00:32
I just checked again and it still doesn't work. Can you please let me know when it's fixed? No rush or anything.

woetotheconquered
3rd Jan 2004, 09:24
I absolutely loved this game, with of course the exception of the camera angle changes. But such a small complaint for such an excellent game within the series.

Kain: He's my favorite, I love the TK hold, move and bounce off his chest move. I killed so many things that way. I also found him easier to control then Raziel. The one thing I miss from Blood Omen 1 is all the cool powers that Kain had. I mean the dopple ganger spell was the coolest. Or the mind control, that was way cool.

Raziel: Very cool, my favorite blade was the water blade, love freezing things. i wish his TK abilities were better, it was pretty much a cannon. He seems to be a tool with a will of it's own, which is exactly how I would describe the Soul Reaver.

The voices: Way cool, loved them all, makes me wish I had any of their voices, how cool would that be. I was amazed when I realized from the first game that I knew some of the voices.

The story: I have to say this is the reason I'm still hooked on this series. Lots of plots, sub plots and I wonder if we've actually seen the last of Raziel, probably not, he'll probably pop up or I hope some of his powers, such as resistance to water.


A big question I have is where in the personal time line of Kain does Blood Omen 2 exist, I assume before this but after this for Janos (timeshifting is way cool)? A big question is did anyone notice that the hole in Kain's chest was closed? Does this indicate that Kain was the physical representation of Raziel like the soul reaver was the physical representation of the wraith blade?

Also the Hylden aren't part of the Elder God's plans at least from what Modieus has said (maybe he's just in the dark) any thoughts about whether the Hylden and the Vampires will join forces against the Elder God and imprison him where they Hylden are currently imprisoned?

jcx2001
8th Jan 2004, 02:15
Your review of the game is perfect, I agreed with everything you have to say...I want to think of some things to add but i think you said it perfectly.

I guess the only thing I can say is that --

Kain is finally done justice and shown as not being the bad guy. If you think about everything he said in defiance, he didnt throw Raziel into the pit out of mirth and jealousy, he did it to tempt the fates to change destiny. Kain was never a bad guy and I think raziel prooves this by what he said to him in their final scene together. Amazing! So Kain was never a bad guy, was never Raziel's enemy! He was merely trying to change both of their destinies. The game was beautiful.

Another thing I wanted to say about the voice acting, other than that it has always been amazing and no game will ever be able to be as rich with voice actors as the LoK series, I always remember the outtakes from SR1 with Michael Bell reading the script, for what seemed the first time and was amazed when they told him it was for a video game. I love that outtake....

jcx2001
9th Jan 2004, 04:27
One thing I forgot to mention was the codes you can input in the pause menu. They are the most hilarious codes and I thank the imp who put them in. Kain and Raziel as toons if hilarious and Kain using a cardboard tube is just classic.

Fear,

The Tube.

LoK#1
10th Jan 2004, 10:35
Originally posted by jcx2001

Another thing I wanted to say about the voice acting, other than that it has always been amazing and no game will ever be able to be as rich with voice actors as the LoK series, I always remember the outtakes from SR1 with Michael Bell reading the script, for what seemed the first time and was amazed when they told him it was for a video game. I love that outtake....


i totally agree about the voice actors but wasnt this outtake from sr2 with rene(Janos) geting a shock at the fact its a lot of talking for a video game ?

jcx2001
10th Jan 2004, 20:04
Originally posted by LoK#1
i totally agree about the voice actors but wasnt this outtake from sr2 with rene(Janos) geting a shock at the fact its a lot of talking for a video game ?

Rene was not in SR1 so it could have happened to him in SR2, but no doubt, in SR1 Michael Bell(raziel) had the same reaction when he was told it was a video game. I am unsure about rene, but i will check.

jcx2001
11th Jan 2004, 06:23
I wasn't sure, its been a while since i played either game and I don't have access to SR1. Thanks for clearing that up heh

rastamandj
11th Jan 2004, 18:52
I have read a review in gamespot.com (6.0) and got scared about game.But i have finished it and i must say:THANK YOU CRYSTAL DYNAMICS,THANK YOU AMY,SIMON,MICHAEL,TONY AND EVERYONE WHO TOOK PART IN THIS GAME. THE BEST LEGACY OF KAIN INSTALLMENT YET!!!!!!

Endoskeleton
15th Jan 2004, 08:47
Scandinavian's largest gaming-magazine Pelit reviewed Defiance (no net-review available) in its latest issue.

It got 76 points (0-100)

and here are the good/bad sides briefly.

Good sides:
Breath taking gothic scenery.
Raziel's levels
Very interesting plot

Bad sides:
simple smash the buttons -fighting
too easy puzzles
fuzzy camera

Black Wraith
23rd Jan 2004, 00:18
I have forgotten after all this time about my own review of Defiance. Well here it goes:

I beat Defiance three days after buying it on November 12, 2003. This game was, in my opinion, the best LoK game yet.

It had all I expected outta an LoK game, good graphics, superb voice acting, and all the vampire action you can handle. there was some things I didnt expect as well Like this being the final game with Raz in it. But I loved how they did it.

I look forward, like all the other LoK fans, to the next game coming out. I hope that it is soon, I wouldn't mind seeing another LoK game before the PS3. If not, a game for the PS3 will be just fine.

RaNT
24th Jan 2004, 04:52
OK, here goes my review of the PC version. I have trimmed it down a little, you can find the full thing at MobyGames (http://www.mobygames.com)
Note that this is meant for people who might not know the series, so it becomes kinda obvious at times, and it contains no serious spoilers.

I know, even "trimmed down" it IS still some seriously long ranting, but you're LoK fans, you're suppossed to be the kind of people who like reading, right?

Bon appetit.


THE GOOD

THE GRAPHICS: Dressed to kill
The first thing that shocks you when you fire up DEFIANCE is the quality of its graphics. The character models are at least as good as in any modern-day game, with the faces deserving a special note both for the expressive animation and the realistic shading; and most of the backgrounds are mind-bendingly huge, with magnificent architecture and detailed decorations. By the way, fans of the first BLOOD OMEN rejoice because you're gonna be re-visiting two key places of that game, in full 3D-glory.
Remember Avernus Cathedral? And Vorador's Mansion? Well...

DEFIANCE carries lots of new-generation special effects: fancy volumetric shading, blinding lighting, cubic-mapped reflections, water ripples... it's all there.
However, the real treat comes when we shift into the Spectral Realm. The Spectral Realm is basically a dark parody of the Material Realm: walls, columns, statues, trees —everything gets badly twisted, all colors turn to shady tones of blue, and soul-devouring vermin crawl out of the shadows.
In DEFIANCE, the Spectral Realm is decorated with eerie lighting, motion blur on EVERYTHING, and a disturbing soundscape of grim music and the tormented screaming of the dead. For the first time in the series, the Spectral Realm becomes an actually SCARY place.

Finally, congratulations Crystal Dynamics for the work in the program polishing dept:
First, like always, the game barely loads, ever. DEFIANCE does have some loading between levels, but it's barely long enough as to even read what the loading screen says.
Second, all this impressive package comes, once again, at almost no performance cost. Of course the game requires a T&L capable video card, but provided you have even the cheapest available one, you can raise all the details to the top and you will hardly perceive a slight stutter in the most crowded fights.

Finally, this game is the first one on the series (in fact the first one in a good while in PC gaming) which didn't require me to go look for a patch to fix some nasty bug before even getting to play it. In fact, I don't know if there IS a patch available, as I never needed one at all.
Of course, this is how all games SHOULD be, but...

GAMEPLAY: Step back, we have a winner!
Until now, I had the game ONI as the undisputed bearer of the title the smoothest third-person combat interface —well the crown has just been passed on.
The combat interface in DEFIANCE is the best I've ever tried, by a fair margin. It's simply amazing.
Fully intuitive, you get to do a lot of stuff in no time, specially when it comes to fighting:
Two different kinds of normal attacks, five special upgradeable attacks, telekinetic blasts, telekinetic push & pull; and the combination of all of the above in any way you can imagine.
For example, you can lift an enemy in the air, jump after him, perform a three-hit mid-air combo, hold him floating with telekinesis, and then throw him on a lit torch, making him catch on fire and run around the room screaming in pain.
Or let's say you come out in the open, and three archers are shooting at you from a distance, on a higher floor. You can lift one of them with telekinesis, and then choose to throw him over his own comrades, push him down some abyss, or pull him down towards you: "I didn't hear you up there, dude. You were saying...?"

As you progress in the game, your character will learn new moves, and even though there are not as many attacks to learn as there were in ONI, there are a handful, and they do make the fights really enjoyable and assure you won't get easily bored.

The lock-on-one-enemy-at-a-time thing has been removed, switched to a much more useful automatic system. Also, as well as enemies can gang up against you, you can attack several of them at the same time. Even if two of them come from opposite sides, you can get to do some elegant swings to give each of them some soup.

The seldom useful block function has been removed as well, and the dodge movement has been improved: it's a treat to use and to watch in action, specially Kain's dodge move, in which he turns to mist and literally passes through his enemies.

The game is divided in chapters, and each of them gives us the control of either Raziel or Kain, each following their own quests, until they ultimately meet. They basically share the same combat moves, but each one is best at a different thing, which nicely enhances the gameplay variety.

I left for the ending of this section the camera —the most controversial feature of the game.
This is the fact: the camera doesn't follow the player over the shoulder in the classic 3rd person perspective, nor you can control it as in the last games of the series. Instead, it moves on a rail, zooming in and out, and changing perspectives every now and then. Crystal Dynamics called this a cinematic camera, and the visual effect looks pretty cinematic alright.
I for one love the feeling, specially while fighting. I gotta admit, however, the system is not without some problems —we'll get back to this in a minute.

SOUND AND MUSIC: Still going up
In the sound dept, there's just one thing to say: DEFIANCE keeps with the astounding level of the series.

The voice acting, like I say all the time, is the best in any game I've known so far. Our favourite voice actors are all back, and once again they all do a magnificent job. As it happened in SOUL REAVER 2, the detailed facial animation paired with the voice acting makes each cutscene a true pleasure to go through.

The music doesn't deserve any special mention, except that as a fan of the series I found quite nice to hear many tunes from some of the previous games again.

THE STORY: Twisting by the pillars
After all the answers we got in the last chapter of the series, I wasn't hoping to be any more surprised now. I thought I had every possible plot fact DEFIANCE could bring figured out beforehand... I should have known better.
Moebius explained it clearly near the very beginning of the game: "you know nothing."

For one thing, we finally get to watch a scene we've been waiting for a really long time: Raziel versus Kain.
We know Raziel has been chasing Kain for as long as two full games already, and while his rage slowly cooled down with a number of intriguing facts he learned, he's far from calling his former master a friend.
We don't really know what Kain has in his mind, other than he constantly repeats that all his actions were orchestrated in order to help Raziel reclaiming his genuine destiny.
We also know that the primary objective of the game is to get both heroes to meet.
So WHAT happens once they meet?
Well of course I'm not answering that right here, but I will say this: the encounter alone makes the whole experience worth it —and I talk about all the 5 games.

Aside from this much-postponed memento, the game uncovers a truckload of events, enough to surprise even the sharpest-minded fan of the series.
How much does Moebius actually know? Did Kain ever met the Elder God? What were those demons stalking Raziel? What IS the source of Nosgoth's corruption? Who forged the Reaver? If Raziel actually is the Vampire messiah, does it mean there's some sort of Hylden messiah? How did the Ancient Vampires die? Who was the unspoken that brought the destuction of the Circle of Nine?
All these questions, and some more, are going to be answered in this game. And believe me, you can't possibly guess one third of the answers.

Looking objectively, what Amy Hennig has been doing this far was taking some points of the first BLOOD OMEN and extending them in order to justify the events in her own saga. In DEFIANCE, this device is even more noticeable.
Far from being this a negative criticism, I say she deserves to be applauded for the incredibly elegant way in which she ties up the loose ends. Looking at the full picture, it looks like a huge storyline which was carefully crafted eons ago. Each new chapter just makes it look even bigger.

Finally, we get to see a re-enactment of a couple of scenes from the first game, but shown from an alternative perspective that gives the whole situation a new level. In english: if you enjoyed the Malek cameo in SOUL REAVER 2, get ready —you haven't seen ANYTHING yet.

FREEBIES: Like a DVD
We usually accept the fact that porting a console game to the PC means losing all kinds of freebies to the lame small space of the CD-ROM —well no more!... Or kinda.
Our good friends at Crystal Dynamics noticed the game itself left a little room in the second CD, so they filled it up with as many freebies as they could. Of course, you won't be seeing the funny voice acting outtakes, but still you'll see some cool art concept and photographs of the DEFIANCE team.

The Dark Diary, a replay of the most important events in the game so far, is back and better than ever: this time you get to replay EVERY SINGLE cutscene seen. A great way of refreshing the events so far, or simply reviewing the best moments, which many developers out there should take notice of.



THE BAD

STORYTELLING: For all those yellow mindless masses...
DEFIANCE is meant to attract both hardcore fans of the series and clueless newcomers, including those who are in for the fast-paced combat, the blood-splattering, and little more. To this end the storytelling was made as easy to follow as it could.
Unfortunately, this means that the dialogues have been tuned down from smart double-senses and long rantings full of metaphors, to more concise and easy-going phrases for simple minds. Hence, the cutscenes have lost half the class they used to have.
Kain saying stuff like "I could promise you a quick and painless death... but it would be a lie" makes him look like an unseasoned teenage bully at its best, under the shadow of his infamous "Drop a stone into a rushing river..." metaphor.
A boss character saying "No more questions. No more worship. Time to run. Time to scream. Time... TO DIE!" could be fine in a class-B horror flick, but it's just too cheap for this series.

I said the story is as brilliant as one could have expected, and it is; but there are a number of inconsistencies with previously known facts, like Raziel being able to climb walls in the Spectral Realm, or some deadly mist which has in Raziel the same effect that water has on common vampires.
These details are not as noticeable as to make a big deal of them, but LOK fans tend to be picky people, and at times, this game doesn't feel like LOK fan-proof.

GAMEPLAY: The flying beholder
Like I said, I DID like the cinematic camera, but I gotta agree that it becomes annoying in some parts. I don't care much about a swapping camera that suddenly makes left become right, or bumping against a wall because the camera was facing the character instead of the road —but I DO care about the camera changing perspectives in the middle of a jumping puzzle. Some jumping sections can turn into an incredible pain in the neck because of these swappings, and I remember at least one moment in which the perspective was so unfortunate that I couldn't calculate the distances properly, which meant having to make a leap of faith towards a tiny thin piece of rock standing in the middle of a deadly pool of mist.

The difficulty level in the fights has been raised noticeably from previous games, but the combat interface makes up a good balance... except in one particular spot: the final boss fight.
It's not only the hardest fight in the game —it's downright annoying. The whole experience will take you about 30 minutes at a fairly fast pace, in a constant running and jumping to avoid attacks, while desperately trying to pass one or two hits every now and then.
I remember how in SOUL REAVER, defeating a boss meant to outsmart him, to somehow lure him into some kind of trap, and I sure prefer that challenge to the mind over this consolistic session of button-bashing.

Finally, the most worrying thing gameplay-wise have to be the puzzles. I already complained about the utterly silly puzzles in the misleading and almost forgettable BLOOD OMEN 2; but the ones in DEFIANCE might be EVEN MORE SILLY. Not one single puzzle in this game will require more than 2 seconds of thinking to the most stupid moron with a severe head injury in his early recovery stages.
Most of the puzzles don't even feel like puzzles. They're so easy it's embarrassing to solve them.
When thinking about the innovative block puzzles in SOUL REAVER or the sheer size of the puzzle-temples of SOUL REAVER 2, I can't help a bitter sense of having been framed.

LOCATIONS: Deja vu!
Even though the environments are beautifully designed and show a lot of class, I seem to feel SOUL REAVER 2's backgrounds were somewhat better. They were more dynamic, with small creatures roaming around (fish, birds, insects) and they had more details we could care about (like the paintings in the Sarafan Stronghold).
The backgrounds in DEFIANCE ARE very detailed, but not the "hey, Rahab has some seahorses carved in his armor!" kind of detailed.

Furthermore, at several points the game gets annoyingly repetitive.
In previous games we already had to do a lot of back-tracking into aleady visited places, but it wasn't necessarily bad, as the places would change dramatically with the time warping. However, this time you'll be returning up to three times to the EXACT same place.
Even worse, the Reaver Forges that Raziel has to visit in order to enhance his Wraith Blade are practically identical to one another. This means that 7 out of 15 chapters of the game are about navigating virtually the same place, in which you won't be doing much more than an eventual boss fight.
If that wasn't enough, 8 out of 11 boss characters in the game look EXACTLY THE SAME.
Also, note that when I mention Forges, you probably think of those enormous and magnificent temples we found in SOUL REAVER 2 —well don't.
These are the low-budget version of the Forges: modest circle-shaped two-tier buildings with 4 or 5 small chambers to visit. You'll be done navigating the whole place in less than 20 seconds.

SOUND ISSUES: A minute of silence
I don't know if this happens only to me, but some specific scenes of the game (including a few cutscenes) don't have any music. This is odd to say the least, since they are the kind of scene in which not only one would expect to hear music, but an enormous, ominous music as well.

The distinctive footsteps noise that so nicely would correspond every different kind of floor Raziel walked on in SOUL REAVER 2, is gone for good. No matter on which kind of floor you are walking, they all sound the same. Why would they remove a perfectly good set of sounds like this, escapes me.

CLIPPING: The bad cut
Last but not least, I need to mention the clipping issues. This series tend to be pretty buggy in the clipping section, but in this game I found some really nasty issues.

I have a few screenshots in which, for example, the cape of a given character comes forward and covers his legs in an impossible way, I saw Kain's hair pass through his own chest, I saw corpses dissappearing inside a wall, I saw enemies getting trapped behind decorative bars...
While most of these bugs are not deadly-serious, this is definitely an area to improve.


BOTTOM LINE

Even though the cinematic camera is a source of discussion, the smooth combat interface alone undoubtly makes DEFIANCE one of the best third-person action games ever made.
Gameplay-wise, the only SERIOUS drawback I find is the simplicity of the puzzles.
With more challenging puzzles, this game would have been just perfect.

To meet the demands of a mainstream market, the dialogues have been somewhat simplified, which is pretty sad to hear for us lovers of Kain's inspired rantings; but the story of DEFIANCE still sports everything you could ask for: charismatic characters, shocking answers, enigmatic questions, delicious cameos, and some massive plot branching & twisting.

DEFIANCE brings a beautiful conclusion to this legendary saga, and it's also a great way to be introduced to the series: even if you dislike the story, you WILL enjoy the gameplay anyway.
From any angle you look at it, DEFIANCE is a must have.

chimera66
29th Jan 2004, 03:13
if you ask me, this game is highly disappointing... i think it could have been so much better had they not made kain an old wrinkly vampire with a mullet like thing... and better powers. kain was so awesome in the first legacy of kain: blood omen

bish
4th Feb 2004, 19:13
hi

i got my copy at 2pm today and have been playing it since.

it has been really good, not had any problems and everything plays and looks great.

i really like the combat system, but i think raziel's is harder to use?? kain seems to be be slightly faster in combat

don't know if anyone else noticed that.

on level 5 at the moment i think.

cheers

bish

ali_turk
4th Feb 2004, 19:19
do you have the game? i don't understand?i that pal version?

DJpick
4th Feb 2004, 20:25
Actually I thought Kain was QUITE slower, and Raziel was a little more difficult to use because he used over emphasized moves that left him open to attack.

do you have the game? i don't understand?i that pal version?
Yes, the European version. I'm guessing it should be out by now.

evil_sharkey
4th Feb 2004, 20:28
I'd never played any of the Blood Omen/Soul Reaver games before this one. In fact, if I'd realized it contained vampires, I probably wouldn't have rented it because the parents aren't so keen on me playing unsavory characters. Boy, is it a good thing I didn't read the box back very well!

When I first started playing the only things that bothered me were the bad-for-jumping camera angles and the unpleasant nature of the characters, but as I got more into it I became quite fond of them, first Raziel, then Kain. The graphics were stunning and animations were among the best I've seen (footsteps matched forward movement, mouths matched words instead of flapping like guppies, etc). The interior scenes were especially beautiful, even when in advanced stages of decay. The gameplay was an excellent balance of mind puzzles, jumping puzzles, fighting, and exploring (though sometimes Raziel's levels were a bit heavy on the exploring). Most story based games are weak on the action, but this one had enough different battles and enemy types to keep most gamers satisfied. The bosses required both strategy and skill to defeat. Button mashing, alone, won't beat this game. There was enough story for newbies to sort of know what's going on, especially after watching the intros to the SR games.

There are only a few things I have to complain about. Occasionally, the camera managed to get itself caught behind walls, or Raziel would get himself caught where the camera wouldn't see him, and the only way to solve that problem was to switch between the first and third person views until I could find my way to a camera angle changing point. This can be a problem in all third person games, though. The music in some areas was a bit repetetive. I heard Raziel-outside music way too often. In combat, I often had difficulty doing combos and using TK, but that may be because I just stink at them. I had a couple of issues with the story, but they're mostly because I'm a newbie and wasn't prepared for these types of things. For example:

Just when things could start working out, Raz goes and rips out Kain's heart (I had a feeling he wasn't dead). From there everything just tumbles downhill. Kain is left with hope and a mighty fine sword. That's about it.

Worst moment: The whole Vorador thing. I rather liked Vorador, and I hoped he would be spared. Then I find out he'd been taken captive to be executed, and there's not a darn thing I could do about it:(. This left me so distressed that I couldn't sleep and lost my appetite. When I rewatched his introductory scene after beating the game I almost lost it. I'm desperately hoping that Mortanius' last action (if he was able to fight off his possession long enough) was to prevent Vorador's execution, but I have a feeling that isn't the case since the Pillars crumbled.

Best moment: When Moebius' soul gets up to meet its maker, and Raziel is standing right behind him to give him a more formal introduction to the bloated abomination he worshipped. Ha ha!

Runner up: Raz's final talk with Kain was sad but beautiful. I was pleased to see Raz's glowing eyes on the Reavor. Thank goodness I didn't rewatch this scene.

Things that could be made better: Not much. It might be nice to include a skip-to-area feature like Enter the Matrix and Primal have. Skip-to-cutscene is nice, but it doesn't show off gameplay. The camera could use a touch of work, too.

The bottom line: This was an excellent game. I'm keeping the save files on my card. When the price goes down a bit, I just may buy it. Now I have to wait for the next one to come out. Pooh.

p.s. Sorry about the ranting nature of parts of this, but there were things I needed to get off my chest so I can get on with my life.

p.p.s. Did anyone else notice the air door in Vorador's mansion didn't look much like an air door? I won't say how long it took me to figure that out... after reading it on the Internet.

ParadoxFiend
5th Feb 2004, 05:58
I loved the game. The new fighting engine is great, combos, telekinesis powers, and multiple enemy attacks were a welcome change. The story didn't make much sense till I read the interview with Amy, but afterwards I understood. Not that I don't have questions still, but without spoilers they will have to wait. The boss fights were put together well. And the climax of the game was the best of any of the LOK series. As well, the cinematics were the best too.

My only complaints are: The CAMERA! I did get used to it but it made gameplay much harder. I used to click (look around) to have the camera stay behind me in other LOK games, but since it went to first person view it no longer worked. I did like the first person view when mapping out rooms, but it wasn't worth the sacrifice of always having the camera behind me. I don't know how many times I fell off terraces. I also had difficulty making tricky jumps as well.
The only other thing that bugged me was the getting the reaver elements for Raz, not actually getting them, but where I had to go to get them. It was deja vu too many times. Not sure how far I can go with this without including spoilers, but if you have played the game throughout you should know what I'm talking about. And where are my puzzles? I liked fighting more, but not at the expense of losing those super huge puzzles. A nice even blend would of been nice.

Well, that's my 2cents

If and when we can talk about spoilers I have more to add, but until then it can wait.

LOK is still the best action/adventure game(s) I've ever played, hands down. And I've played just about every one of them out there. Kain and Raz will always be my favorite characters.

PF
P.S. Why was Kain so much slower than Raz? Esp, at climbing walls?

evil_sharkey
5th Feb 2004, 06:30
P.S. Why was Kain so much slower than Raz? Esp, at climbing walls?


Simple. Raz is a wraith. He doesn't exactly have much weight to haul around. ;)

AndaPanda
6th Feb 2004, 04:33
I finished Defiance today and all I can say is GREAT WORK CD! Loved everything about this game (well with the exception of the camera -sometimes-, because of which I had to spend a day and a half trying to make my way across Vorador's mansion courtyard)jumping from pillar to pillar, from the right side to the left to get the Heart Seeker Anyway, for an obsessed LOK fan like me, it was nothing :) Loved the story, the twists and turns, the voice acting is SUPERB :D I was a little saddened by the ending, but it was all supposed to happen eventually, I guess. To make a long story short, I can't wait for the next installment! Thanks again Crystal Dynamics!:D :D :D

Chubben
9th Feb 2004, 09:37
Finished it yesterday.Still thinking wich game i think was the best.I think BO1 and LoK-D share nr.1. It was GREAT.Loved everything about it. Graphics were amazing. Combat was the best ever. Never had any problems with camera.

And the fight between Raz and Kain!! There are now words for that. I was really shaking behind my PS2.

Can't wait for the next one.

And now i'm going to replay this one!

:D

Solin
11th Feb 2004, 21:27
I know its not his heart but how can kain survive without it?
not that i care

tabish_a_malik
17th Feb 2004, 19:44
I have finished the game brilliant game but i was not too happy with raziel's death kain and him made the best pair, so does anyone know if there will be a sequal to this..

Camus Audron
20th Feb 2004, 06:15
STORYTELLING
well, I finally got my defiance, and I've played trough it, overall I was glad to see some closure(and that is one hell of a closure, everything ties very well!), and some meaning to LOK plot.
Always that I thought about the magnitude of LOK's plot, I could only find one flaw, I didnt see any meaning or purpose to it, unlike in MGS, where every game closes with a clear philosofical message.Defiance proved me wrong and showed me that amy was only building up for the right moment to unleash the significance, that's very brave of her. GO AMY!

I read Lost world's interview with Amy....and she says that she didnt explain more of the plot, because it would tire the newcomers.
Well amy, I disagree! you could have perfectly have fit the parts of the sequences that would tire newcomers in the arcane tomes! if you aim for two different audiences, then the solution of choice is obvious! dont force either audience into anything, and let them both choose what they wish for!
for example, let's say that when Raziel first went into a forge he explained why he couldnt go back to other forges, why not then....have the game skip that sequence on normal gameplay, and then once the player finishes the game, the "why_the_new_forge" sequence is added the Dark Chronicles so that hardcore fans can look it up.
I dont see what the problem with a solution like that would have been....


AUDIO
I am sorry with poor old Kurt...but there was very few new audio, and it wasnt all so uniqe...the screams of the underworld were moodish and fitting but I still needed a new tune.
I still look at SR1 times as the golden times when it comes to the soundtrack.


GAMEPLAY
Well, as we all know LOKD HAD to have a big gameplay change, DMC direction was the most popular choice, and so that was what got done.
This was extremely well implemented, the change is almost un-noticeable, and I think it is a great acomplishment to assimilate Combo gameplay so flawlessly. The whole analog direction+button sysem is great, I like it a lot more than DMC's since it doesnt require me to change the way I play according to the camera's direction, that really fu**ed up my combos in DMC, but it was much more fluent in LOKD.
though the system was good, the abilities were too alike, maybe every technique should work both airbone and on the ground, allowing for more variety( a quick idea is a stuinning attack, a lifting attack, a quick attack, a space shorting attack, and a blow away attack)

The new sucking system is good in theory, but I think the Soul ripping/blood biting(close range suck) was way too slow, and it turned out more of an obstacle than an advantage for me, I feel like it should be fast smash and no more, the complex animation was very cool, but after half an hour of gameplay you dont care for it anymore, and start disliking it because it gets in the way.

The idea of the added TK was very good, I really loved the two tk buttons, one which allows to move the target, and another one to move the player, that worked very well. though I think this concept wasnt exploited to it's fullest, if the game had let you utilize these 2 alternatives when you were holding an enemy in TK, it would have been much richier.
Also I think it could have been very good if the reaver was used for attack, and the TK for defense. This would have integrated well the TK with the pick_up_any weapon that was used in SR.
my idea is like this, instead of having a blocking pose for the characters, you could TK pick up any object in the room, and use it as a shield, the blocking would last as long as the TK meter/and or the object took hits(maybe there could even be some props with special properties).That would have certainly added some greater variety to the game, and some deeper meaning to every area, as not every area would have the same props.
The "mage" type enemy which improves the other enemies was a great addition, it really added some power to the human enemies.
Though since you've got the whole "multiple enemies" thing going on, I think it's really necesary to design some enemy AI that makes the enemies act as a group, and have group fighting strategies.
One thing that I've missed since SR1 is the ability to establish a relationship with an enemy class, in SR1 you could have the "rebel" humans on your side if you ever kill them, I think this should repeat when posible, maybe if it's not posible with the humans anymore, it should be the case with other nosgoth-native creatures like those swamp slugs, or maybe regular animals like wolves and the like(maybe even humans with the vampiric curse?).
The boss fights were definitively necesary, I havent played BO or BO2, so it's the first time I see actual combat based battles in LOK, this makes me very glad and the best Boss battle moment was obviously the fight between the champions, I enjoyed kain's part better (moronic raziel...lets hylden manipulate him)
The rest of the boss battles(Turel standing as the best among those)are a bit bland, as they are so similar; all the enemies have the same basic projectile attack, and some minor extra alterations.
It's great that there are boss battles now, but it'd be better if they were more pattern based, and with more varied attacks, take Alter Echo for example (that's about the only highlight of that game..)
The flow of the game was very natural, the way the forges were intertwined with the plot seemed flawless to me, and really motivated me a lot, in contrast with SR2 where it felt a bit artificial.
The Reaver enchancements were awesome too, the best of the series, my favorite was Dark, as it had several effects, if a next game comes out, I hope you continue to build on this sytem and give a greater range of abilities to each reaver element.
The experience system seemed a little short...as you could easily get all of the abilities pretty early on the game, I've always thought experience should develop based on the good use you make of your weapons (the better you play the more power you get)
The camera had its bugs obviously, I think the biggest flaw was to completly remove the rotate-camera-around-character system, in some places it could have been a better option
GRAPHICS
The mood was quite awesome, it's really great how the actual in-game surroundings portrayed the mood intented in the concept art so perfectly(Quite obviously the conceptart was just the best, as usual =D )(BTW....is it me or is Dan not in the credits? =/)
The new somewhat cartoony style that can be seen troughout all of the characters, is great, I am very glad it's there because I felt in SR2 LOK lacked a look of it's own..and that made the graphics somewhat bland. But the style is great and I love the new renders!
I reaaaaallly welcomed the new animation style!, in SR2 I missed Raz's SR1 movements, they may have been a little glitchy(the way his arm hung up when he ducked) but they had a lot more personality.But the new animations are great, they have a very solid feel and they merge well with the new style for the renders, I love the fact I didnt see any motion capture team in the credits, I am getting really fed up with those FF templated models and un-expressive missplaced motion captured plauging every game out there.
It's really brave and very awesome to do all the animating with only pure skill, that makes LOKD's animation style my favorite animation style on any 128 gen console!! GO BRANDON N CREW!!!(and the hell with motion capture =D)

BTW, if you could at all put any info on how the conceptart crew goes about creating character designs in the bonus features (Such as arcane tomes) that would be a complete extasis to me, I really praise SR^ character designs

ALL IN ALL
I am extremely glad about how CD finally got to balance artistic value, and time-limit restraints (exception of a few bugs), this time, the game did flow flawlessly, and whatever cut-out had to be done was completly un-noticeable =). I miss the greatly architectured forges, and the more lengthy explanations (why was the reaver un-forged again?), but if LOK 6 comes out, Defiance is a really solid base to build the game on, go CD!!!

Erving JeansBgone
21st Feb 2004, 17:07
When i saw the first official screenshots i was blown away and i coulden`t get enough of it,info,pics,trailers,you name it.:) Then when i found out it was only on PS2 and XBOX i was so disapointed...It was realy hard to be pacient,to hope and when you first told us about the PC version coming out affter all i went and got a upgrade for my PC :D .When the people here in the forums sayd that they playd for 20 hours stright i could not belive it(why spoil the game by playing it non-stop till you finish it and you`l just end up wanting more)...well this game has shown me the error of my ways,i playd it like crazy for hours and hours till i finished it and was 100% happy and satisfied with it,the cammera was no problem for me i got used to it affter half of the first chapter.The new combat mode rules(i never passed up any chance to kill even the most loathsome of creatures,the sluagh)The graphics and sound rock(the patch is a great improvement).
I`v encounterd only one bug wich was easy to overcome by reloading the game.

I give Defiance a cool 9.5%

I`v finished the game 4 times and i`m passing it for the 5th time. I`m in chapter 4 with Raz now. By the way my fav places in the game have to be The Sarafan Stronghold and Voradors Mantion(the bigger and more puzzle filled the better)

P.S. thanks Chris for all the help you gave us Lok fans.

Best wishes,Erving :)

Angels Holocaust
4th Mar 2004, 22:45
I've just finished it for the 3rd time. It would have been 4th, but I had to restart when I got stuck in a glitch during the Heart Seeker section.

All I will say is thank you. This game has been the best thing to enter my PS2 since I bought it. The only things I didn't like about the game was the fact there was no new CG sequences and the glitch factor. Otherwise, this game was perfect.

Please, please keep making Legacy of Kain games of this quality!

gklok
8th Mar 2004, 23:47
I played the game on pc and i really enjoyed the camera view. I don't understand why knowbody likes it. It may be the way i set my controls. I used a keybaord, no mouse, no controller. It was very easy to play and the camera gave me very little problems.


The one thing that was difficult for me was when Kain is climbing up those stairs that appear out of the wall. When he lights the 2 torches.

nichie14
15th Mar 2004, 11:20
ok I finished the game. Great game indeed, camera issue was not a big of a deal. However, main storyline is not clear or contradict what happens in other LOK game, also storyline took on a different path following themes from Blood Omen2. The enemies from BO2 to me are not interesting and are too alien- like, they dress like they are from outer space. Come on!!!!!!

Goddess of Nosgoth
15th Mar 2004, 14:11
Listen I apologize to anyone who gets offended but :o I have to say one thing (Simply don't read if u r easily offended: *ahem*!!! People at Crystal Dynamics, Eidos, and Amy Hennig.....(*cough*) (*cough*) Kain (*cough*) and (*cough*) Raziel (*cough* *cough*) ahem!!.. to - get - her... ahem!! >> yea..if u know what I mean... (it was obvious since SR1) ...... ahem..... they're -ahem - in - ahem- love! AHEM!! .......Now, we all know why Kain has a serious obsession with his sword and always "cuddles" it (*see BO2 intro*) and why Raziel steals Kain's heart.... ahem!!..... literally...ahem!!!! ;) :rolleyes: OK DOES ANYONE GET WHAT I'M TRYING TO POINT OUT HERE??!!:confused: ......(*whispers*) make the legacy of kain series end with a "happy" game. Get blue and green *to - get - her* yea ummm..... trying to make my request 'decent' here :o ....... make Raz y and Kain ummmm...... :eek: (*nudge* *nudge* *wink* *wink*) :eek: YOU KNOW!!!!OK??! ahem.... Anyways like I said before....sorry if this offended anyone, I'm just a desperate fan..please don't kill me :( WAHHH!!!!

sutton
16th Mar 2004, 11:37
first let me say that i love the legacy of kain games. even though defiance had the best combat and a amazing story line i thought it was a big let down with the camera views and its simplistic puzzles. dont get me wrong i love the game its just i wish the camera was like in the first soul reaver and it would use more puzzles WITHOUT HINTS!!!

DJpick
16th Mar 2004, 11:40
I have to say one thing (Simply don't read if u r easily offended: *ahem*!!!
If what you posted had made ANY sense, I have a feeling they would anyways.

van_HellSing PL
16th Mar 2004, 12:00
I guess she means yaoi. :rolleyes:

antonica
17th Mar 2004, 23:08
The game storyline is great but the controls and the camera position just ruined it. it could have been better, much better (pc version).Too "console" for me and the controls system is very different for a pc gamer, it should have been adapted much better for pc. Still, it`s a good game.

DJpick
18th Mar 2004, 03:45
Interestingly enough, it played like the other games, just a different POV. So if you played SR1,2, or BO2, Defiance REALLY was no different.

I didn't have anymore troubles with the PC version than I did the PS2 version.

nichie14
21st Mar 2004, 05:02
This is my 3 time through, hmm....wow i'm just starting to admire the beauty of the graphics. The first time through, i was too tune in to the combat. Good job C.D. and keep up the good work. So Eidos will you let write the story for the sequel? I can help you make millions.

Bruce lee

Dark_Raziel01
29th Mar 2004, 07:33
Originally posted by nichie14
This is my 3 time through, hmm....wow i'm just starting to admire the beauty of the graphics.
Bruce lee

what do u mean STARTIN 2 admire defiances graphics

the graphics r mad some the best ive ever seen

guardian0_3
3rd Apr 2004, 19:13
Originally posted by Chris@Crystal
Hey there,
I just wanted to start a Legacy of Kain: Defiance Reviews thread for all of you that have the game so far. Let us know what you think of it so far and how far you are in the game.

Please make sure to make use of the SPOILER vB code as not to spoil the game and story to others not as lucky to have the game yet.

Vae Victus! ;)

~Chris

I really liked the cinematic, although there are a few spots where it gets in the way. Story was top-notch great writing as usual as well as in-game graphics. Suggestions for the next game; keep the new camera AND the follow camera from the other games (give gamers a choice). Also, I loved the Zelda-esque style of the Soul Reaver Games, being able to roam freely across Nosgoth, as opposed to having leves like in Defiance. Get rid of the levels. Other than that, do your stuff.

babifrence
8th Apr 2004, 01:23
Hiya Peeps,

@Chris@crystal: -

Im glad that you have introduced this thread. I bought this game last month and loved it intensely. I even came closely to crying the 2nd time around I saw the cinematic of "Vengeance and Sacrifice"

particularly with Raziels self sacrifice

that moved me soo much. I have to give credit where credit is due to both the writers, Amy Hennig and the programmers that made this game soo incredible.

This was the first time I ever saw Kain smile, it would be nice to see it more often. If you can influence CD or Eidos in anyway, it would be nice to see a CGI movie from start to a would be finish of this great series. It can be bought as a special edition DVD film or perhaps a generous bonus at a fitting price with the last and final LoK game.

Thanks for letting us have the chance to have our say :).


PEACE OUT !!!

PS Good luck with the next installment, Im itching to get my hands on it. If possible, try to get a say in the camera aspect of the game where we can select camera types or perhaps toggle it where appropriate during gameplay. This would stop future arguments and benefit both parties who enjoy the new cinematic camera angles and the old style Soul Reaver gaming.

Personally I like both, but the Soul Reaver camera angle is much much better as it tends to be a free-er environment for the player. Catering for both audiences would greatly improve the success of the title and bring back any disappointed fans who endured Defiance and turned away.

As a PC gamer (I dont own a console - probably never will, PC's rule ! Its just raw power at your finger tips) I dont want to see the future LoK titles dismissed for the PC. I mean, if there is a loss on the PC front then produce fewer games for it - that way you guys dont lose out and neither do we.

I love LoK sooo much, but if the games never make it to the PC again I would turn away in both disgust, betrayal and sorrow. (No offense - but as I mentioned in a thread before, we were introduced to this series from BO1. We all had a choice to buy it. Then came SR1 and 2, I bought both of them. BO2 came out and I bought that as well regardless of its endless bashing. Im an avid fan and would be mortified if PC gamers were further neglected (due to missing bonus materials on PC but placing them on console ports). As you can tell I bought Defiance and am very pleased with it regardless of its few hiccups. Do have to say though, I didnt think there would be as few bugs as there are, I had anxiously anticpitated more - glad Im wrong). Anyway, to my point. I have shown dedication as well as money to support the series. We were given a nice gift of entertainment through 5 games that have spanned 8 years. Stopping its production on the PC would seem like a robbery of free choice and neglecting those who would still cough up money for its memorabilia as well as the games themselves. Thanks for your time and I hope that my opinions are noted as constructive advice.

Umah Bloodomen
8th Apr 2004, 03:30
Originally posted by babifrence
As a PC gamer (I dont own a console - probably never will, PC's rule ! Its just raw power at your finger tips) I dont want to see the future LoK titles dismissed for the PC. I mean, if there is a loss on the PC front then produce fewer games for it - that way you guys dont lose out and neither do we.

I love LoK sooo much, but if the games never make it to the PC again I would turn away in both disgust, betrayal and sorrow. (No offense - but as I mentioned in a thread before, we were introduced to this series from BO1. We all had a choice to buy it. Then came SR1 and 2, I bought both of them. BO2 came out and I bought that as well regardless of its endless bashing. Im an avid fan and would be mortified if PC gamers were further neglected (due to missing bonus materials on PC but placing them on console ports). As you can tell I bought Defiance and am very pleased with it regardless of its few hiccups. Do have to say though, I didnt think there would be as few bugs as there are, I had anxiously anticpitated more - glad Im wrong). Anyway, to my point. I have shown dedication as well as money to support the series. We were given a nice gift of entertainment through 5 games that have spanned 8 years. Stopping its production on the PC would seem like a robbery of free choice and neglecting those who would still cough up money for its memorabilia as well as the games themselves. Thanks for your time and I hope that my opinions are noted as constructive advice.

Regardless of whether or not they make fewer PC ports, the fact of the matter is that they still lose out. As they'd still be dishing out the money for the PC port, they wouldn't reap the profits to compensate for it and the port would still end up being illegally distributed (which is the main reason why porting to the PC is losing its appeal today). As I posted after you brought this up in a previous thread:


If Eidos' ability to do legitimate business by porting their titles to the PC wasn't being negatively affected in this "digital age", then the prospects of continuing to port to the PC would be good. However, the truth of the matter is, their business is being negatively affected and the prospects of continuing to port to the PC are becoming bleaker by the day. I disagree with your sentiments regarding privilege vs. obligation. No one should be "obligated" to facilitate their own demise. The problems facing the entertainment industry today were not as prevalent back in 1996 when Blood Omen was released. While you claim they "owe the fans..." the fact of the matter is that they don't, especially when a majority of them are taking advantage of their services. It's not Eidos' (or any other company for that mater) fault for considering this course of action (no longer porting to the PC), it's society's fault. (Perhaps not as a whole, but a large portion of it is anyway). Eidos is being backed into a corner that will eventually cause them to make a decision to "do or die". Money is an issue, however the financial aspect of this dilemma isn't limited to the profit-making aspect of it. You have the livelihoods of the developers themselves to consider, as well as the budgets for producing the games for any platform. It's really a sad state of affairs, IMO.

DJpick
8th Apr 2004, 20:32
If anything, a company should release MORE titles on PC, to compensate, so they have more product that could possibly be bought.

But Umah's right, it's not the company that is causing a loss of profits, companies don't see profits until their product is bought, which is the consumers job. If people aren't buying the product, then no profits are made.

Drusilla
10th Apr 2004, 15:18
I wasnt active in the forums here during my first round of LokD mainly cos I was avoiding the spoilers lol Anyways I've finally found the time to play it again, from start to finish, and I thought I might as well leave a review :D

First up: THIS GAME ROCKS!!! :eek:


Good stuff:

Graphics - fantastic design, fantastic texture work, wonderful animation work, nice effects, etc etc, i can rave on and on lol

Plot - being a follower of the lok series from sr1, bo2 and sr2, I'm simply stunned speechless especially near the end of the game :cool:


Not-so-great stuff:

Game music - they're all recycled from the other lok games .. well, except for the nice new remix on the menu (love that one!!), and the bit in the cemetery, and the mix in the spirit forge, i think..

Camera - thankfully the jumps are formulaic .. once you know the right combination of buttons to push, the jumping around is a breeze despite the odd camera.

I particularly like the cam during battles cos i can see everything that's going on (btw, my gameplay setup is keyboard-only) .. usually in 3rd person in the other lok games, i see only the legs of big monsters when I whack em lol


All that said, this game is THE BEST LoK game yet .. cant wait to play the next one! :)

Female Razielim
19th Apr 2004, 02:46
I only will make a little review about the Defiance ;)

1. This battle system is one of the greatest battle system I have seen :D It's full of action, and I love to make combos and more combos! :D

2. I liked the "explore mode" of this game, it remind me the Soul Reaver, but the Soul Reaver was more free to explore.

3. the specific powers of the reavers (both Kain's and Raziel's) are great and make the battle even more interesting.

4. the end was full of emotion :p . And that last dialogs (specialy of Raziel and Kain) was incredibles, impressive!

5. (and the only bad) I WANT RAZIEL BACK! The Legacy of Kain will not be the same if Raziel don't come back from the reaver! :(

ScionofBalance
19th Apr 2004, 03:02
First of all, I would like to thank everyone at Crystal Dynamics for all their hard work. Legacy of Kain Defiance is by far, the best game I have played in awhile. This is saying a lot cause I play lots of games.
Combat: The new combat system freaking rocks and is the reason I come back to play this game over and over. The combinations and gained new abilities was very creative and kept the combat from becoming stale. The only complaint I have in this area is that you can't really block like you could in BO2 and after you learn the specail moves the combat isn't as challenging as it was in Soul Reaver 2. Also Kain lost his stealth kills and can only use his jump in certain areas, besides that, you hit the nail on the head.
Camera angles: I have to say that the new camera angles at first were very annoying. After awhile I did get use to them and relized that the new angles were necessary to incorporate the new combat system. So, there is really no reason to change thea angles.
Moving from area to area: This has to be my biggest complaint. When you depart to a different area, you are just taken there, no wandering, or exploring, just ...bam, you're there. I would have like to see traveling done the way it was in BO1, walk along, come across dungeons and ruins you can explore for new items. Then, when you go into the castles, or mansion, or whatever you come across, switch to the way it was in Defiance when Kain and Raziel entered what they were traveling to.
Everything aside, this was a great game and I thank you guys and gals for giving us fans what we were waiting for: creative gameplay, combined with strong story telling that makes us all come back for more.

Dark_Raziel01
22nd Apr 2004, 09:18
defiance was a mad game i LOVED IT the graphics were exilent i would say 1 of the best ive ever seen also the battle system is prity good i dont see y some people dont like it. imo the stoy was 1st or send best story in the lok story also thanx any the the story & last the camera was just fine it just take a little 2 get use 2 it took me just 10 min 2 get use 2 it

keep the work up eidos :)

lordraziel
9th May 2004, 17:23
Well, I was actually considering sending in an e-mail or something with my thoughts on Defiance but this is much more convenient. Thanks Chris and all for the opportunity. :)

First the Good...

- The story, as always with Amy and the gang, was excellent. Finally to have some resolution to problems, people and events is very satisfying. Though naturally there are enough unanswered questions to continue the series if/when CD and Eidos decide to do so.

- The graphics in the game were also very good. The different environments, the characters, facial expressions, everything was great and enjoyable.

- Though Kain and Raziel basically controlled the same you could still tell the difference between the two. Kain was much more powerful at the beginning, as he should have been.

- Personally I like the fact that not all of the fights were mandatory. Though sometimes you had to fight to drop the combat barriers there were several times that I didn't need to feed and just kept running. Personally I much more enjoy the Adventure part of Action/Adventure games and I found this to be a plus.

- Dialog and Voice Acting. The same people wrote the script and the same VA's were back for their respective characters. Need I say more?

The Bad...

- There was no way, without using the Reaver spell, to shake off large groups of enemies. While I imagine this was intentional I personally didn't want to manage to get the Reaver charged up so it could do some serious damage just to have to blow it all to get a little breathing space. Some kind of less damaging area effect TK attack to accomplish this would have been appreciated.

- The fact that you always had to auto-lock on when the Reaver was drawn was annoying to me. (If this is not true I wasn't smart enough to figure out how to get around it.) Sometimes, especially with the demons, it is easier for me to use a "run and gun" approach. Run around in a semi-random manner and wack at a demon as I go by. (Worked great with the red demons in SR2.)

- Inaccurate TK blasts. Sometimes when I was fighting groups I tried to use the individual TK blast to give me a chance to take on one or two at a time. However on several occassions I noticed my TK blasts seemed to either be aimed at someone who was already farther away or even just at the wall or somewhere else equally as wasted.

- Was it just me or did Raziel and Kain hesitate for a split second after standing back up from being knocked down? I swear several times with both characters I was wacked again because I couldn't move at first to get out of the way. Maybe it was just me?

And the Ugly...

- The camera was an interesting change from the previous games and I applaud the efforts to make it more dynamic. But it also made the game more difficult. Sometimes the shifting perspective caused me to get confused on which direction I needed to go. Also, the camera was not able to pull back far enough in some instances causing me to lose track of an enemy when I shouldn't have or to get hit from off camera, something that I really hate.

All that said I think this was a great game and I enjoyed playing it. In my opinion it is definitely the best LoK game since Soul Reaver. Keep up the good work and thanks for making such great games, and listening to the fans for some feedback!

LordRaziel

babifrence
9th May 2004, 23:00
Hiya Peeps,


Originally posted by lordraziel
Well, I was actually considering sending in an e-mail or something with my thoughts on Defiance but this is much more convenient. Thanks Chris and all for the opportunity. :)

First the Good...

- The story, as always with Amy and the gang, was excellent. Finally to have some resolution to problems, people and events is very satisfying. Though naturally there are enough unanswered questions to continue the series if/when CD and Eidos decide to do so.

- The graphics in the game were also very good. The different environments, the characters, facial expressions, everything was great and enjoyable.

- Though Kain and Raziel basically controlled the same you could still tell the difference between the two. Kain was much more powerful at the beginning, as he should have been.

- Personally I like the fact that not all of the fights were mandatory. Though sometimes you had to fight to drop the combat barriers there were several times that I didn't need to feed and just kept running. Personally I much more enjoy the Adventure part of Action/Adventure games and I found this to be a plus.

- Dialog and Voice Acting. The same people wrote the script and the same VA's were back for their respective characters. Need I say more?

Agreed, and well said my friend :).



Originally posted by lordraziel
The Bad...

- There was no way, without using the Reaver spell, to shake off large groups of enemies. While I imagine this was intentional I personally didn't want to manage to get the Reaver charged up so it could do some serious damage just to have to blow it all to get a little breathing space. Some kind of less damaging area effect TK attack to accomplish this would have been appreciated.

- The fact that you always had to auto-lock on when the Reaver was drawn was annoying to me. (If this is not true I wasn't smart enough to figure out how to get around it.) Sometimes, especially with the demons, it is easier for me to use a "run and gun" approach. Run around in a semi-random manner and wack at a demon as I go by. (Worked great with the red demons in SR2.)

- Inaccurate TK blasts. Sometimes when I was fighting groups I tried to use the individual TK blast to give me a chance to take on one or two at a time. However on several occassions I noticed my TK blasts seemed to either be aimed at someone who was already farther away or even just at the wall or somewhere else equally as wasted.

- Was it just me or did Raziel and Kain hesitate for a split second after standing back up from being knocked down? I swear several times with both characters I was wacked again because I couldn't move at first to get out of the way. Maybe it was just me?

To be honest, when I was fighting off large groups of enemies I was finding that I had to try and attack most of the areas around me with at least 1 slash so that an enemy would sporadically attack me. This being said I would end up fighting 4 or 5 enemies and using the reaver charge at least twice.

I too hated the fact that when you have the Reaver drawn the auto-face is automatically enabled. It sometimes makes it awkward to attack enemies and see where you were going. Other times it was frustrating because you would be fighting infront of the camera (primarily with Kain) and enemies would leave blood streaks (:D) and then Kain's face would appear close up and personal whacking the crap out of the enemy (annoying but can be occasionally funny).

Yes, TK blasts did seem a little off key sometimes because when you wanted to attack a group of enemies and you systematically tapped TK to push enemies away it would suddenly zap off somewhere completely distant from where the action was happening.

Trust me, about that hesitation thing with both Kain and Raziel, I had it too. Sometimes I'd wonder if the characters just stopped resonding so I would have to tap forward twice before the hero actually moved. If you are fighting those 2 stone (ancient-like) statues then you find that you can sometimes end up in a unfair beat'em up frenzy where unfortunately Kain was the target.



Originally posted by lordraziel
And the Ugly...

- The camera was an interesting change from the previous games and I applaud the efforts to make it more dynamic. But it also made the game more difficult. Sometimes the shifting perspective caused me to get confused on which direction I needed to go. Also, the camera was not able to pull back far enough in some instances causing me to lose track of an enemy when I shouldn't have or to get hit from off camera, something that I really hate.

All that said I think this was a great game and I enjoyed playing it. In my opinion it is definitely the best LoK game since Soul Reaver. Keep up the good work and thanks for making such great games, and listening to the fans for some feedback!

LordRaziel

The camera has been one of the most discussed and debated feature of the game since it was released. Too cinematic... true, but its a refreshing change from the same 3rd person "follow the character" type game. However, that being said of course its not a very easy change to adapt to since it feels like the first game to actually utilise this kind of camera system. Devily May Cry may have been an inspiration but that game had a little bit more flexibility in the way the Dante moves attacks and solves puzzles.

Never-the-less, I congratulate CD yet again on their brave new title that is a great success both to me and the majority of the LoK community all over the world. I cant wait for the next release and eager to get my hands on the keyboard to uncover Kain's true destiny and the story that lies ahead.

Good Luck CD, our thoughts and support are with you,


PEACE OUT !!!

avertell
10th May 2004, 08:57
I'd just like to congratulate the creators of defiance on a job well done.

Youve successfully ruined my favourite game series of all time with your latest installment.

I guess i should give some feedback on why I feel this way, so here goes

The camera is the most frustrating useless one of ever come across, trying to jump around is the most frustrating thing ive ever come across, ive never been so mad at a game.
It can be inpossible sometimes to actually point at your target with the aimed TK blast.
the game should obviously still be in beta from the look of all the bugs.
How about trying to move blocks around, how bloody anoying is that, what were they thinking!!!!!
Did i mention that the camera that makes me want to rip my monitor off my desk and smash it on the wall?

I love the legacy of kain story line but its so overshadowed by the terrible game play, i actually wish i didnt buy it and just read a walkthrough or something to see what happened!

what would be really handy is some sort of fly/big jump cheat so u could skip out those really annoying parts where you have to complete a number of jumps in a sequence to get to a particular place.

sorry guys but i am sooo mad at this game, i just had to vent. :(

KainOFthehylden
10th May 2004, 09:07
I see u have a lot of problems with the game,but dont think its a bad game just for the camera,actually the camera is not that bad really, just give yourself some time to get used to it and you will see...:)
besides the blocks.....all you have to do is press the action button and then you need to press and hold the movement button for the block to move in the direction u want if you press it once and released it you will encounter problems, besides there are not many block puzzles in the game.

just give yourself some time

card
10th May 2004, 09:45
i found the game very good. the jumps are simple once you take a 5 minute break from the game and concentrate a little. the pulling and pushing blocks puzzles are few and simple. you don't use tk aim to use tk on enemies. and i haven't found that many bugs..

ive never been so mad at a game. you obviously haven't played tr :D

Dark_Raziel01
10th May 2004, 09:52
Originally posted by card
you obviously haven't played tr :D

whats this tr ?

card
10th May 2004, 09:56
tomb raider :)
i can think of many many others even more annoying

unimatrix2612
10th May 2004, 09:57
does tr stand for Tomb Raider?

Dark_Raziel01
10th May 2004, 10:03
i never realy liked tr 4 me its a bad game i played the demo wasent good & watched some play it just toped the cake or maybe i just hav a paticular taste with movies & games

Shinryu
10th May 2004, 23:58
Just finished it, so SPOILERS I guess
:D

Graphics - One word: flawless.
Sound - Excellent as usual, I liked the idea of the remade tracks from the SR games. And I cannot stress enough how much I love the voice acting throughout the whole series. Bell and Templeman are outstanding.
Control - a major improvement over the SR games, very fun and intuitive. the only faults I found are the infamous camera system (not THAT bad actually if you get used to it, but it can be a problem when trying to do tricky jumps) and the fighting system tends to be *SLIGHTLY* repetitive since both Kain and Raziel fight the same. I repeat - SLIGHTLY. I thoroughly enjoyed it, but it's not perfect.
Gameplay - similar to the SR games, with the notable innovation represented by the new fighting system. and i liked the "easier" puzzles - i mean, i loved the brilliant complexity of the puzzles in SR2, but since this game is more action oriented i find it strikes a nice balance by not stopping your progress for too long with puzzles. One notable exception is Vorador's mansion, which is a huge puzzle broken down into several minor ones: many people found it frustrating, but personally I thought it was brilliantly structured and placed at the right moment in the game.
Lifespan - Well, this depends - the game is by no means short, but if you're a hardcore LoK fan like myself you'll be playing it for hours on end, finishing it in a few days. But definitely great value anyway.
Plot - I'm not even talking about this. It's LoK, and there's Kain and Raziel together...'nuff said. :D
Overall: A great action-adventurer and a step in the right direction for the series. Definitely the best of the LoK. Really, the only real faults I could find was the camera system and a certain tendency to rely on the classic action-adventure structure (wander, find item, open door, progress) which won't however by any means hinder your gaming experience. A must buy for the fans and for anyone even mildly interested.

babifrence
11th May 2004, 01:41
Hiya Peeps,


Originally posted by Shinryu
Just finished it, so SPOILERS I guess
:D

Graphics - One word: flawless.
Sound - Excellent as usual, I liked the idea of the remade tracks from the SR games. And I cannot stress enough how much I love the voice acting throughout the whole series. Bell and Templeman are outstanding.
Control - a major improvement over the SR games, very fun and intuitive. the only faults I found are the infamous camera system (not THAT bad actually if you get used to it, but it can be a problem when trying to do tricky jumps) and the fighting system tends to be *SLIGHTLY* repetitive since both Kain and Raziel fight the same. I repeat - SLIGHTLY. I thoroughly enjoyed it, but it's not perfect.
Gameplay - similar to the SR games, with the notable innovation represented by the new fighting system. and i liked the "easier" puzzles - i mean, i loved the brilliant complexity of the puzzles in SR2, but since this game is more action oriented i find it strikes a nice balance by not stopping your progress for too long with puzzles. One notable exception is Vorador's mansion, which is a huge puzzle broken down into several minor ones: many people found it frustrating, but personally I thought it was brilliantly structured and placed at the right moment in the game.
Lifespan - Well, this depends - the game is by no means short, but if you're a hardcore LoK fan like myself you'll be playing it for hours on end, finishing it in a few days. But definitely great value anyway.
Plot - I'm not even talking about this. It's LoK, and there's Kain and Raziel together...'nuff said. :D
Overall: A great action-adventurer and a step in the right direction for the series. Definitely the best of the LoK. Really, the only real faults I could find was the camera system and a certain tendency to rely on the classic action-adventure structure (wander, find item, open door, progress) which won't however by any means hinder your gaming experience. A must buy for the fans and for anyone even mildly interested.

I have to say, this was a great read and an intuitive insight into an experience I can much relate to. Its finally nice to see fans who appreciate the game that was designed for us but more so to see that people love them for more than its "LoK storylines".

Personally, even though I love the boney blue fuzzball I loved Kain's combat much much more than Raziels. I got the feeling he was more dynamic and fluidic in his fighting and maneouvering. Raziel seemed more stylistically evasive which I didnt like (the rolling away whilst in combat lock mode can get really annoying sometimes).

Anyway, I hope we cross paths in future LoK events and on other threads.


PEACE OUT !!!

Shinryu
11th May 2004, 09:03
you're right - despite being more agile in moving, jumps etc., Raziel is more sluggish while fighting. I too enjoyed playing Kain more, he has a more "brutal" and powerful feeling to him (the new bloodsucking animation owns :D). And I feel he has the best spells, since Raziel's are pretty much all the same (except for the puzzle-related ones like the Dark Reaver spell). I loved Raziel's Fire spell though. :p

glad you liked my review :). Yes, there's definitely loads more to Defiance than the "LoK storyline", although that alone would have been reason enough for me to play it.:D

babifrence
13th May 2004, 00:41
Hiya Peeps,


Originally posted by Shinryu
you're right - despite being more agile in moving, jumps etc., Raziel is more sluggish while fighting. I too enjoyed playing Kain more, he has a more "brutal" and powerful feeling to him (the new bloodsucking animation owns :D). And I feel he has the best spells, since Raziel's are pretty much all the same (except for the puzzle-related ones like the Dark Reaver spell). I loved Raziel's Fire spell though. :p

glad you liked my review :). Yes, there's definitely loads more to Defiance than the "LoK storyline", although that alone would have been reason enough for me to play it.:D

Agreed :), Kain is far more brutal and hes just amazing to use in combat. I love kicking butt as Kain, with Raziel its just a chore, though when I can perform it, I do love the "Phantasmal Tempest" move. It just looks sooooo cool :D.

One of the best tricks I liked doing with Raziel in the Earth Forge was to hit the charge up crystal whilst enemies stood infront of it and then release multiple charge attacks. Those undead beings didnt stand a chance. I even got creative - I used different Reaver charge attacks simply cause I got bored after too many enemies begin to respawn.

Yes, as I said - theres much more to the story line. Personally, if it wasnt for the story I would have quit playing Defiance because of the camera angle. I got sooo frustrated. After 5 or 6 hours playing the first level and dying on the very first jump over the water I nearly packed it in. Im glad I didnt, but I really had to be strong willed to keep on going. I must have died at least 50 times during the first time of playing it. I was sooo frustrated I nearly wrote a thread asking How many times did you die during Definace ?, glad I didnt though :).


PEACE OUT !!!

avertell
13th May 2004, 09:22
please eidos, if youre going to make any more, ditch the horible camera, check out http://www.ggmania.com/full.php3?show=5625 to see hom much people loath it :/

Dark_Raziel01
13th May 2004, 09:30
Originally posted by avertell
please eidos, if youre going to make any more, ditch the horible camera, check out http://www.ggmania.com/full.php3?show=5625 to see hom much people loath it :/

the camera is just fine it just takes alitle gettin use 2 witch when i played it 4 the 1st time tooka around 10-15 min

DJpick
13th May 2004, 09:33
You fans ar ethe whiniest group of fans I have ever seen. "GO here to see how much we hate what you did, or made, or designed, or created".

Ungrateful whelps.

The camera ROCKED. Yeah, it was glitchy, but it got you SO much more involved than the other games.

IF they hate the camera so much there, why did they give it such a great score?

If anything, Eidos should stick with the new camera, and just try to fine tune it in an effort to shut everyone up. Of COURSE it was going to be glitchy the first time out. Didn't the Titanic sink on its first voyage? Well Defiance didn't sink, so now they have a chance to improve it.

Shinryu
13th May 2004, 09:39
agreed, i prefer the idea of defiance's camera to the standard third-person one...the trouble though was that it made you feel as if you couldn't see something that might have been important. well it didn't, since all you needed was in sight, but it still was an awkward feeling that took some time to get used to. the other problem was that sometimes you couldn't see where you were going or couldn't aim jumps well, which i think is the biggest complaint. anyway, i think eidos should stick to this camera, it makes things look so much cooler.

and please, guys, let's keep it constructive:)

KainOFthehylden
13th May 2004, 09:43
Yes the new camera is good but I dont think they should stick with it....because many fans hated Defiance because of the new camera and keeping this camera would be not respecting the fans' needs...
If it was up to me I prefer they keep this camera because we already get used to it...if they create a new camera then we will have to get used to it all over again

DJpick
13th May 2004, 09:43
SOmetimes constructive needs a kick in the.... you get the idea.

Ok, I played Defiance on PS2 AND PC. And I had NO more trouble with the keyboard than I did the PS2. SO obviously it wasn't THAT hard. You guys just need to practice more. There was ONLY one place where control was an issue, and it was Voradors courtyard. BUt I think it was more a collision detection issue than a control issue.

And respecting the fans needs means questions would be answered, SR1 and BO1 would be remade, and Raziel wouldn't have died. I think they gave up on all the "fans wishes" a while ago. I say do what you want. Make the games how you see fit. Many people enjoyed the camera, you just don't hear about it because when was the last time you heard someone complaining how much they enjoyed something?

avertell
13th May 2004, 10:01
dont get me wrong, i love the lok series, i own all the games and for the most part defiance wasnt that bad, the story was the best so far and the gfx were supurb
I'm not complaining about the buggyness of the camera as such (although certain bugs like falling through the floor were annoying), the major problems i had was trying to do the 'jump puzzles', like the the main part of kains crest where you have to hit a tk switch which raises 3 pillars out of the water and then you have to jump them in time b4 they fall down, i only managed to complete that part because of a bug, (if you hold down tk aim on the 2nd pillar b4 it falls you can still activate the switch from under water), and i nearly smashed something in rage b4 i found the bug
maby future games need to give you the option of switching cameras?

manicmaniac85
19th May 2004, 10:04
I agree with what has been said before, Defiance has great graphics, sound, story, etc. The thing i think is not so great is the game play itself. Dont get me wrong the combo's and tk are a good addition but it still does get a bit boring. The things that could have been improved and still could be in future are:

-boss battles, SR1 had the best. They were interesting, because just chopping at them with the reaver did nothing so u had to think. Cool ways of killing bosses is fun!

-the world itself. Some areas we saw were good but it felt a bit shallow. Avernus for example, the city is ment to be burning, but we dont hear or see it. It doesnt actually feel like the city is in chaos.

-also the world and game were to short and confined, like i said we see nothing of the rest of nosgoth. A huge world like in BO1 would be great. Also free roaming and reasons to back track for bonuses can be good, like SR1 and BO1.

-one last thing, kain is a demigod who does nothing but hack people (and demons) to bits. Some spells or dark gifts would have made it that much more fun. Also the long jump from BO2 was pointless, it did nothing but make me wish i could use it properly.

I dont want to sound to negative, cos it was a superb game, and the best in the series, it just was missing a few things.

By the way CD and Eidos rock! :D Thanks for putting out such good games.

Shinryu
19th May 2004, 14:20
hmmmm...the boss battles of SR1 were good, but too many of them got tedious...since defiance is so action-oriented i feel it was just right to exploit the potential of the combat system. a couple of "thinking" battles would be good, but not too many.

the reason why the world feels so "small" is that Raziel and Kain are treading on BO1 territory. They shouldn't be supposed to meet the fledgling Kain, so they either explore completely new areas (like the Citadel) or "limited" versions of old areas (like the Cathedral). anyway, i feel this works just right...a big world to explore would have made things confusing, IMHO defiance works perfectly as a linear game (although some slightly bigger secrets would definitely have been welcome).

And yes, I agree with what you say about the lack of any true spells. Like I said, LOKD is more action-oriented than any previous LOK games, so CD must have felt it right to center the game on the fighting. Introducing spells, new dark gifts etc. would have made it definitely harder to "balance", making it a bit more of an RPG. Just my thoughts...and anyway, LOKD is a great game and excellent fun as it is.

DJpick
20th May 2004, 10:18
Besides, it makes sense. BO1 was just a simple story about an arrogant vampire, exacting revenge for his death. You would need a large land to explore.

Now that the story has become WAY more important, large areas would be vacant of story, since it would take a lot to fill each area with something important, therefore they just focus on the story, instead of exploration.

babifrence
20th May 2004, 13:17
Hiya Peeps,


Originally posted by DJpick
Besides, it makes sense. BO1 was just a simple story about an arrogant vampire, exacting revenge for his death. You would need a large land to explore.

Now that the story has become WAY more important, large areas would be vacant of story, since it would take a lot to fill each area with something important, therefore they just focus on the story, instead of exploration.

Agreed though I wouldnt say Kain was an arrogant vampire looking to exact revenge at all. He was naive and left ignorant of his true destiny by Mortanius. Kain was just murdered for no apparent reason, and until his resurrection he truely appreciated what it was about to be a vampire. If someone killed you for what seemed to be no apparent reason, wouldnt you want revenge ? I dont see that as being naive, gullible or arrogant. I see that as avenging ones self.

He has always been the pawn just as Raziel had been. In fact the only time we ever see Kain appearing to be arrogant is BO2 and I dont count BO2 as part of the TRUE series due to its dillution of the story and making Kain seem like a power hungry imbocile.

Kain has always been a nice and altruistic character. Only in SR1 does his behaviour change, however Kain still retains his righteousness due to his new found knowledge that has allowed him to come so far.

Do remember Raziel is Kain's son and thereforce the uncanny resemblence between Raziel and Kain as characters is incredibly similar. However, they both possess unique ressurections.

Just my thoughts...


PEACE OUT !!!

kakarot
21st May 2004, 00:37
no, he'd turn the other cheek..

grove
21st May 2004, 16:03
I am so sad the game turn out this way.

I was hopeing to get an adventure/rpg like LOK or SR. But instead i got a game that seem to be broken up into stages, like some action game (sigh)

And the camera angles were horrible.

Here was this beautiful world that the devs created. This game had really amazing backgrouds. But b/c of the bad camera angles i was forced to look at the front of my guys face or his arm. This made moving around hard, and meant i only got to enjoy like 10% of the world created here.
Not to mention that alot of hidden objects werent hidden. They were in plain sight, its just that the bad camera angles hid them.

A would love to see another adventure game like SR1 was.

Shinryu
21st May 2004, 19:58
I call it evolution. SR1 was a great game for the time when it came out, when Tomb Raider was huge. I myself considered it "the good version of Tomb Raider" :D. Because of this, it focused mostly on exploration and puzzles, while the enemies were little more than annoying obstacles.
Defiance went a different way by adapting to a genre that is currently very successful, the level-based-action/adventure-with-a-few-puzzles-and-lots-of-flashy-moves of which Devil May Cry and Prince of Persia: Sands of Time are two outstanding examples. I'm not saying it ripped off these games in any way - but the general gameplay mechanics were definitely inspired by them.
You can like it or not. Personally, I adore this kind of games, but I can understand why they wouldn't appeal to you. A game like SR1 wouldn't sell that well today, unless it was extremely well structured, and anyway Defiance has its fair share of puzzles too. Also, the level structure is somewhat misleading - you CAN return to a lot of the previous areas, even if there's no real point in doing so.

kakarot
22nd May 2004, 02:23
my description of the camera after further review...

"it does the work for you"

it pretty much predicts where i will go and rotates or shifts for me. it's the truth.. whether you like it or not. 1st few times playing with it was extremely frustrating but I got used to it and I have changed my opinion from "hating" (November '03) it to "appreciating" (January '04) the work it does for me... also, after playing all other LOK games I have come to appreciate the cinematic feel. (May '04) :D

great job CD..

dorziel
6th Jun 2004, 05:09
And wow!

Very difficult! Even the second to end guy and end guy!

Again, very awesome story line that these guys can weave together. Possibly the best story line ever in computer genre games.

And, the end sequence makes it look like there may even be another sequel! Which would be really cool, how it leaves the story semi-open ended

If there is another sequel made, one thing....

Please...PLEASE...make the camera angles user friendly...user controllable...some parts were near impossible with the angle...in any other event with camera manipulation it would of been extremely easy

Kudos to Eidos making another winner in my book!

geez
7th Jun 2004, 00:48
so i just finished this game and the graphics and gameplay were excellent(except for the camera angle at times). As for the story, I thought the earlier games were much better. I think BO2 is my my favorite to date. Opinions?

doomswoman1
20th Jun 2004, 20:41
I liked BO2 although I understand that I might be in the minority.
I enjoyed that one being set in a real city and that normal people
might stumble into the story. (Can you imagine how you'd react
if you came around a corner and there was Kain and Raziel duking
it out against the Sarafan?) It was weak on the artsy part...
But Eidos and CD more than made up for it this time :D

Seriously, though, I loved the art on Kain, the facial expressions
were magnificent! Especially when he takes his second victim,
I could feel the blush on my cheeks!

And does anyone know where I can see a better picture of the painting of Kain in his mausoleum?

babifrence
20th Jun 2004, 23:19
Hiya Peeps,

@Doomswoman1: -

I believe this link might be what your looking for: CLICK ME ! (http://www.thelostworlds.net/Images/Defiance-Futhark-01.JPG)

People who have not played the game or looking to avoid spoilers I urge you not to click the link. It is just an image anyway but it might ruin what is to come.


PEACE OUT !!!

doomswoman1
8th Jul 2004, 21:12
Babifrence,

Thank you, thank you, thank you!:D

babifrence
8th Jul 2004, 23:01
Hiya Peeps,

@Doomswoman1: -

You are very welcome indeed :), I hope it helped.


PEACE OUT !!!

Smoke_Z
9th Jul 2004, 02:10
It's been long enough, I think I should throw my review in. Puzzle-wise, combat-wise, it was too easy. A gamer of my level should have cause to be frustrated. The thing that's giving me the most trouble is trying to pull off a really cool move instead of just beating an enemy into submission.

I loved the extra options that were included above gameplay. Being able to get a good look at the scenery through the characters eyes was a nice touch, as was wireframe mode. (I wish I could've gotten a better look at their faces in wireframe mode, but the backgrounds too often got in the way.)

I did dislike how obstinantely linear the game was. There was little opportunity to go in the wrong direction.

apollo440
12th Jul 2004, 08:22
I was affraid that the game would finish here...but there are some questions that were aroused....please can you guys help me with summerizing these questions....

Apollo

Servatis
14th Jul 2004, 15:01
I'm to lazy to read all of this forum, so I just looked threw the first few pages...


Did you not eat or are you all jobless/out of school?

*Snicker*

I'm jobless but in school. I don't think, at my age, I could get a real job!

I thought the camera was a little better then SR2's because you didn't have to keep readjusting it... But SR2's camera did give you a better view of the scenery. I'm hoping that in the future there's a better, workable camera system. For those who've been able to use the Debug menu, with help from thelostworlds.net, the camera can be readjusted... Or that's what I've done so far.

The only glitch that annoyed me was when I shifted--I was using a feature of the Debug menu (shift anytime/anywhere) so it was really my fault, I couldn't get out of the room because of barriers that the crab-things formed in Spectral... Even after I killed them, it didn't count them as dead! I had to restart part of the Vorador's Mansion chapter...

Other then that the game kicked Hylden butt! :D

Stim
1st Aug 2004, 06:13
I've played all the Legacy of Kain Series, and I'm not impressed with Defiance at all. I mean CD has had such a long time to make a better story, a better combat system, a better magic system. It's the same cheap playstation gameplay over and over and over again. It must be pretty sad for CD that they're best games are both for the playstation and that those two games are still better than any of the recent Legacy of Kain games they've developed. Next Generation my butt.

Caer
1st Aug 2004, 10:33
Umm... have you registered the fact that the gameplay is very different from the previous games? It is far, far better.
I'd say the story can't top SR2. That game had dramatic tension so thick you could cut it with a knife. Defiance is not that far off though, and it's so far beyond SR's story in terms of quality that it's ridiculous to even start comparing.
Magic... What magic? I never used the Glyphs in SR. I thought they were completely pointless. And SR2 hardly even had any combat. Okay it had, but it was pointless and slightly dull. No magic whatsoever.

I'm not really comparing to BO due to two reasons, the most obvious being that I've only played it a little bit. The second is that it's an entirely different kind of game. If we're talking improvement and not a complete makeover, I'd say Defiance is successful on most points.

DMraider
1st Aug 2004, 10:56
He is kinda right. Bo1 was very fun because u had so many abilities. With Sr1 u still had alot but less. And SR2 they almost forgot about combat. in Bo2 u got some abilties but u encounter 1 or 2 different enemies in a chapter. And Defiance is pretty good but they stilll forget about secrets and gameplay. U got only 1 spell in defiance LOL.

Valaquen_
1st Aug 2004, 17:58
Every game had its high points:
Blood Omen: HUGE world, FMV, Spells and Items, Loadsa secrets, Bosses, great characters.
Blood Omen 2: Gore, plenty of weapons, execution moves, more interaction with human civilisation.
Soul Reaver: Another Huge world, great bosses, Introduced Raziel, Glyph's, love/hate relationship thing with the Citadel's human's, brilliant music.
Soul Reaver 2: Another huge 128-bit world, time-travelling, loadsa plot twist's.
Defiance: Brilliant battle system, control of Kain and Raziel. (I'm surprised there wasn't a younger Kain segment in Defiance)

Combine all of these for LoK 6 and IMAGINE!!!

blaiba
8th Aug 2004, 22:50
loving the game, even getting used to the camera angle, but now i am totally lost and have no idea what i am not doing to get any further in the game.

currently in vorador's mansion, have found the silver disk and the first heart spike and lit the fires down in the back yard.?! now what?

Umah Bloodomen
9th Aug 2004, 02:43
Originally posted by blaiba
currently in vorador's mansion, have found the silver disk and the first heart spike and lit the fires down in the back yard.?! now what?

Refer to this thread. (http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=27037)

Thanks. :)

blaiba
10th Aug 2004, 22:10
thanks for the direction:D

gklok
24th Aug 2004, 23:46
Hey everyone,

If you get easily offended then don't bother reading this, hope this doesn't cause any anger to anyone.

I'm gonna say that Defiance was not that good of a game in my opinion. Now of course people are gonna be disagreeing with my statement but hear me out.

If we weren't LOK fans, and say just wanted an action adventure game to play and picked Defiance, we wouldn't like it as much as we do. Without the storyline its nothing. It was too short, completely linear, and just very repetetive. Seeing as we are LOK fans, we like it because just the thought of controlling Kain/Raziel in the same game, and wanting to know what happens is such a thrill to us. I'm not trying to make fun of Defiance. I actually enjoyed the camera view because I altered the controls and played on my keyboard just fine. I thought it was a very good game, but when I finished it, I got bored of the LOK series and just put it aside for a few months. Then when I thought back, after I stopped being such a fanatic, I couldn't understand why I enjoyed it so much. Sorry if I offended anyone.

Schattenjäger
1st Sep 2004, 07:14
just finished the game after some 3 or 4 days playing...
and, on the bad side I must say it was a waaaaaaaaaaaaaay too short game. I thought I was just warming up and suddenly I was finishing it.

however, it was a very intense playing experinece. the game is visually amazing (I almost cried when i realized people actually pronounce the words they are saying rather than just moving their lips =)) the battle system is very, very fun and the storyline is, as always, very interesting.

I have found the game to be too easy maybe, as even the battle with the elder god is not really much of a challenge. actually the really hard enemies for me were some of the ghost guardians and those big vampire hunters...

also, I had a strange sound related feeling where the character's voices seemed to echo and come from somewhere else than their owner

anyway, I really loved the game. It was a somewhat short feeling, but a very good one nonetheless =p

PS: my first post in this forum!!! weeeeeeeeeeee =p

Keller
11th Sep 2004, 03:21
The game was great! I was a little worried based on Soul Reaver 2. The fighting was great, gameplay was great and the story was awesome as usual!

Mazeura
27th Sep 2004, 03:17
Overall, I thought the game was very good. I just think the game might have been a little rushed, and it was too short. The storyline as usual was top notch and easily the best part of the game; the devil may cry touches would have been better left out though.

One of my favorite parts in the game is near the ending sequence when Raziel finally understands everything. When he sacrifices himself to the reaver, the line "I am, as before, your right hand. Your sword." Things like that I why I love this series.

I was a bit depressed that Raziel was gone but it felt good to tie up that part of the storyline.

I was happy with this. I rabidly await the next game. :D

DemonicDC
25th Oct 2004, 11:13
Things I hated/not liked:
* camera
* raz new animations when phasing through a gate
* Spirit realm sounds
* lack of projectiles on the reaver
* lack of the ability to use claws
* reaver only showing when fighting
* lack of ability to use other weapons
* lack of highjump
* invisible walls
* charge meter for the reaver spells
* having the reaver upgrades always (such a great puzzle element ruined)
* fact that we had to suck souls out living beings
* dying and not going into spectral
* lack of changing puzzles
* we can't go back and travel around like in SR1/2
* sound from the original reaver??
* save points. (BO2 also had this). Couldn't this be more have a story like SR2.

Things I did like:
* able to suck souls out living up close (old SR1 trick with the humans)
* new overall look
* great story (can make this very long, but I know others mentioned it above. Certain death scenes etc)
* great dodge and fight abilities on both chars. Same key controls also are cool
* being able to suck blood out living (BO1) rather then dead (BO2)

End conclusion is I think the game is worth it. (don't let the longer don'ts list fool you into thinking that I do not like the game)
Sure, it would be cooler, to my opinion, if some things were changed but the story itself rules and thats the most important.

in all, nice work.

weaponx
6th Nov 2004, 15:47
Originally posted by DemonicDC
Things I hated/not liked:
* camera
* raz new animations when phasing through a gate
* Spirit realm sounds
* lack of projectiles on the reaverif theif wasnt an invisable wall
* charge meter for the reaver spells
* dying and not going into spectral
* we can't go back and travel around like in SR1/2
* save points. (BO2 also had this). Couldn't this be more have a story like SR2.


*well the camrea just takes a little bit of gettin use to
* i like raziels new animations when phasing through gates
*the spectral realm sounds didnt bother me
*if u could use the reaver spells when ever you wanted people would just be useing fire or flame reaver spell
* the reason why u couldnt go into spectral when you died is to make the game harder,
*well techinly you can in some parts of the game like wheres a bat flight marker you can go to da prevous level & in voradors manson you can go back to the level just befor it with raziel

DemonicDC
12th Nov 2004, 22:16
don't get me wrong. I realise all was done with good reason. Just saying I did not like. :)
If I did not realise it was done with good reason I would not have stated I like the game. :p

tvideo
26th Nov 2004, 02:11
I find it irelevant if people liked or disliked the new camera they still purchased the game anyway and if another game comes out with that auto cam it wouldn't stop anyone from buying it.

Look at the bugs players had to deal with in BO and BO2 but they still liked the game right? We'll never forget SK's dreaded loading screens (ridiculous) and the BO2 console bugs that froze your games.

By all means LOKD was a solid game, no major bugs, well developed, graphically pleasing etc.

The story is getting rather stretched out and inconsistant since you're building on SK's one game, true some stuff was added but perhaps the new game should have some sort of a fresh start?

RPGs like the Dragon Quest & Ultima series would drag 1 story line out in trilogies 1-3 (one story) 4-6 (another) and so on.

Personally as much as I enjoyed the series (BO and SR = LOKD) the series should not die but perhaps the storyline should...change isn't always bad.

That's my 2 cents.

Ericdraven
3rd Jan 2005, 22:34
i dissagree with you all i think that defiance wasnt the game ending i was hopeing for, and it had other flaws too, the camra didnt alow you to make the most use of teh fantastic render the game had. the graphics artists worked ther arses off to have the game not relay spoilt but not as good as it could have been. the fmvs wernt as good or as spectacular as i could have hoped for. however having pointed out all of the flaws like playability and the camra . the fighting system was masterfull and towalds the end the fights came thick and fast. kains talikanetc abillites made the enermys just prey and left us beleiving that he would have been able to defeat raziel.

it was a fantastic game but like all of theother legacy of kain seris it was stoped from becoming an absolute clasic by little things which could have been fixed...shame on you edos you could have made the ultimate game...dam camras!!

tvideo
4th Jan 2005, 04:50
Originally posted by Ericdraven
[B]i dissagree with you all i think that defiance wasnt the game ending i was hopeing for, and it had other flaws too, the camra didnt alow you to make the most use of teh fantastic render the game had. the graphics artists worked ther arses off to have the game not relay spoilt but not as good as it could have been.

I disagree about the cam, taking an idea [or a non-patented process] and then using it is not exactly unique is it? Everyone knows the camera was taken from Capcom's Devil may Cry.

Sure they may have worked hard for it, but being unique in this industry is what counts and LOKD has always been a follower NOT a leader since SR. I agree it was a leader for part 1, but once things changed it was Tomb Raider...and honestly, that sucks.



the fmvs wernt as good or as spectacular as i could have hoped for. however having pointed out all of the flaws like playability and the camra . the fighting system was masterfull and towalds the end the fights came thick and fast. kains talikanetc abillites made the enermys just prey and left us beleiving that he would have been able to defeat raziel.

True, I agree with that.


it was a fantastic game but like all of theother legacy of kain seris it was stoped from becoming an absolute clasic by little things which could have been fixed...shame on you edos you could have made the ultimate game...dam camras!!

That's what happens when politics gets involved, neither CK or Edios invented this series...they just commercialized it and made it well known. It was SK who did the inventing...as for why they sold it that's buisness.

nico2000
8th Feb 2005, 17:06
Story line:
Great, couple of unexpected twists. Bit complicated. Not sure I got it all.
Graphic Design:
Excellent. The artwork is surpassed magnificent. Beautiful. Scenery as well as characters. The fight animations and sounds are great. So are the cut scenes. The breaking furniture is a really funny twist... About time the scenery became a bit more interactive.


Technical Graphics:
Not so good. Lots of running into invisible walls, disappearing into walls, objects and each other.
Lots of walking on air, and falling of stuff, while nowhere near the edge.
Camera views are often blocked by objects.


Game play:
Lots of strange and redundant attack combo's. (Never needed, or used them).
Often you cannot see your enemy because the camera is on Kain, or Raziel and not on the fight.
Sarafan coming out of the ground ??? Thought they were human, not Orcs...
We can run, we can sneak, but why can't we just simply walk
Enemies politely wait till you're done feeding. Better to wait till all enemies are killed and let the bodies lay. Disappearing corpses, just not realistic...
On the PC version it is impossible to press two directional buttons for diagonal movement and then jump. You can only jump in one 90 degrees direction and then try to correct in flight.
The number of Vampire hunters, (or any other "fill empty space" monsters) is really too much, it slows the game done and makes it tedious.
Week puzzles and sequences. Especially with Kain.
No sense of direction while moving statues or blocks and stuff. Kain and Raziel react really confused on the direction keys.
Autofocus quite often won't work. Pillars really aren't dangerous enemies.
Hopping over a little step while in combat proves to be a big problem.
Kain and Raziel hanging on to ledges one time, but just letting go the next. Not very consistent.

Camera:
One of the worst cameras in the whole world of gaming... Why? Because it effects the movement control of the character far too much. Especially when you need accurate control as in jumping and fighting. PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, return to the first person camera for action sequences that require it.
Note to whatever programmer thought this was a good idea... How would you like it when you are driving you car and what you see, looking out the windshield is a nice view of your own car in traffic, in stead of seeing WHERE YOU ARE GOING...!!!

Final verdict...?
I don't think I will be playing this game a second time.
Main reason...?
The frustration over the controls due to the camera.

JeroenVS
1st May 2005, 10:10
So, I just finished the game, and here are my thoughts and feedback on it. Note that other than Defiance I've only played the Soul Reaver games, hence the lack of comparisons with the Blood Omen series.

Story
Awesome, as I expected. The story is pure brilliance. Very few can rival the quality of the LoK plot. Keep up the good work!

Graphics
The architecture and graphics of the series has always been impressive, and Defiance continues to hold true to this.

Gameplay
This is where the game could've been better, I think. As with Soul Reaver 2, I wish, first of all, Defiance had more facultative parts in the game. Soul Reaver 1 sets the perfect example of this: you could always take a brake from slaughtering your brethren by using your new-found abilities to search Nosgoth for extra life, energy or glyphs.

The human stronghold and the location of the sunlight glyph, for instance, were places that weren't required to visit to complete the game. Instead you could go there to, say, "upgrade" your character. It made the game more interesting, and I kind of miss that in the later installments.

I also wished Defiance was a bit more puzzle-intensive. It's a nice break from all the fighting. Loved the gargoyle part, which took me almost a half day to complete :D .

As for the fighting, although it sure is a step ahead from the previous games, I wish the finishing moves were as satisfying as in Soul Reaver 1 (nothing like sticking a filthy vampire on a pole!), I also liked the enemy recovery a lot in Soul Reaver 1 (perhaps this could be used for the undead in Defiance). I agree with nico2000 on what he said about fighting in Defiance. I don't buy the "enemies appearing out of nowhere" stuff. Also, where's the cool effect when the enemy's body "burns" away as you eat their souls from Soul Reaver 1?

Also, as for the EXP system: it's a really good idea, but the execution is a bit on the weaker side. First and foremost, there's practically no difference between Raziel and Kain's combo's, which doesn't make the characters have a distinctive feeling. I think a better way to solve this is to, instead of having to tap forward plus hitting attack button, have the player push a combination of attack buttons (much like in fighting games such as Tekken) and have the characters doing cool combo moves.

What I missed in Defiance was an overland: you know, a neutral area between different levels. Again, in Soul Reaver 1 this was strongly present, and gives more a sense of freedom. More importantly, an overland allows developers to put lots of facultative/hidden stuff in the game, and have the overland to be the primary location for upgrading your character.

Though the camera system never drove me to kill little puppies, I missed the "behind the character" camera view from the previous Soul Reaver games. In Soul Reaver 1 (again), it was optimal, I think. Having a pre-determined camera can not always end up being ideal for players, and the inability to change the camera position yourself is quite unsettling. Free will is an illusion...is what I regularly thought.

Sound & music
I can't remember having any issues with sound effects. Voice-acting is *Excellent*. And I feel happy to capitalize the "Excellent" since these series has by far the best voice-acting in the gaming world. None of the actors acted bad or sounded goofy at times, which doesn't seem to occur often in videogames.

The music, on the other hand...

I mean, the game had like... 5 or 7 tracks at best? I mean, WTF, you hear the same track on and on throughout the entire game and in the end it started to drive me bat****! I have a very strong feeling that the soundtrack is being neglected more and more with every game, which is a shame, as the Soul Reaver 1 soundtrack (and partially the SR 2 ST) was brilliant. On top of that, out of the outrageously meager Defiance soundtrack, only 2 songs, if I remember correctly, were really new to the series.

Also, where did the spectral realm music go? The warped version of the music was some of the highlights of the previous games, and new it's COMPLETELY absent!

I'm sorry to say this, but clearly the developers have done an extremely lazy job in the music department. This is, for me, the biggest con of the game.

The verdict
All in all, Defiance was a good, enjoyable game, although I have the feeling that it's unusually strong storyline kind of saved the game. In fact, I did the part from where Kain entered the pillars all the way to the end of the game in one day! The storyline just forced me to continue playing this game! I just wish it was more refined in terms of gameplay and music. Hopefully this feedback won't fall on deaf ears, so that the next part in the series (if there's coming one, at all) won't suffer from Defiance's weaknesses. If the developers manage to tackle those weaknesses, they could make one hell of a game!

Storyline: 10/10
Graphics: 9/10
Gameplay: 6/10
Sound: 7/10
Music: 2/10

DjChrisGeo
10th May 2005, 04:31
I would like to put in my two cents even though the game is old now. Let me also add that I have Kains symbol tattood on my left shoulder and Raziels on my right shoulder. Yes, I am a die hard fan so please take mind of this!

First my likes then more importantly my disappointments.

I love the graphics/camera/combat system. Everything flowed very nicely and I saw no major gliches in the characters. I especially appreciate the detail put into the enviornment and characters, even the parts you don't see unless you manually look with the camera. I enjoyed the Devil May Cry style camera angle and found that it worked very well with the combat system.

It was time for a facelift and the team did a wonderful job! Raziel was dark again like in Soul Reaver, very nice and the way both fed was EXCELLENT! I'm glad there were no extended animations like in BO2 (blood sucking). It was gruesome yet quick! The neck bite was EXCELLENT!

The enviornment was beautiful and I liked visitting places like Avernus and The Stronghold from other games. That was something I was looking foward to doing and it was done (almost, will explain later).

The story was very compelling and really brought things together but I feel it was dummed down a bit from the last games, especially the script. AS funny as it sounds my vocabulary actually improved after playing Soul Reaver hahaha.

But how did we go from

"In the Malstrom of the abyss, a sub terranian tunnel leads northward to the clan territories of Duma and Turel. Endowed with Rahabs soul, you may swim to gain entry where your path was otherwise impeeded".

to

"Kain has it. IT IS IN KAIN?"

Besides a few script weaknesses I feel the story was delivered very nicely plus the dark chronicles was an excellent touch!


I disliked many things about Defiance and unfortunatley some has made me dread replaying the game.

MY MAJOR DISAPPOINTMENT IS... THE FORGES! I feel as though Crystal Dynamics just threw in this for the sake of filler material. If it was a matter of disc space, make 2 discs but please don't feed us this repundanent garbage you call a level. KAIN HAD NO BUSINESS GOING THROUGH EVERY SINGLE FORGE! To be honest, it's an insult to my intelliegence. I feel as though CD thinks it's fans are so dumb that they will be entertained by playing the forges all over again with Kain. I know this is not the case, but it is how it made me feel none the less.

The repetition of the statue enemies is as equally mind numbing! For these two reasons I have only played through defiance twice. Also I did not see a reason for Kain to go through the stronghold a second time. Having Raziel go through the stronghold (a different way.. through planeshifting) would have been cooler.

The puzzles were too simple to figure out. I once read a users signature that said "The Great Kain, reduced to block puzzles). A little more creativity in the gameplay would have been great! Doing things that actually had meaning instead of retrieving artifacts to open doors. I can do that in any other game. I play LOK because it is UNIQUE!.

What I would have liked to see.

More areas! such as Avernus Cathedral! (not the catocombs). I would have enjoyed walking through the town of Avernus, the dark woods and visiting areas such as Maleks bastian and Nupraptors retreat. Again, I understand the limitations the team faced but at the very least I would have liked to see these places "in the distance" to feel a little more like I was in Nosgoth of the Blood Omen era.

I would have liked to see events taking place from Blood Omen. Perhaps Raziel or Kain witnessing events from a distance and not interfering. This would have been an ideal way to tell the story to noobs.

I disliked the intro which was again an insult to my intelligence. I didn't care for the splicing of intros but after that I thought the intro was EXCELLENT. But would it have pushed the budget to have hired another two actors to deliver the lines of the sarafan?? It's clearly Micheal Bell and the guy who plays Vorador.

I HATED the LEVEL SYSTEM!


What I would like to see in the future!

First, I would like to see the series be like Tomb Raider with several releases. I hope the series never dies!

I would like to see a Blood Omen/ Soul Reaver style layout of the game with as many hidden secrets!

I would like to see events taking place and lots of time travel! Perhaps we can have a glimpse of the Soul Reaver era in the next installment and see Raziel emerging from the Abyss. This would be an ideal time for Kain to explain a key element in the story line.

I would like to see DARK EDEN IN 3D!

I would like to see more of the Elder God. Tony Jay IS BRILLIANT! Probably the most talented of all voice actors. Simon and Micheal are fantastic aswell, but Tony has that voice. You know what I mean!

Most importantly I would like to see the game related to past games in other way besides only story. I want to be overwhelmed with thoughts of "cool, this is from Blood Omen, this is from Soul Reaver". We got a taste of it but I want more!

I would like to run into the younger Kain. Perhaps interact with him and completly rewrite history (although the stream will keep flowing choosing the path of least resistance).

I would like to see movies and novels!


I DEFINATELY WANT A SOUL REAVER AND BLOOD OMEN REMAKE! (although I know it's been stated that this will never happen).


Thank you for taking the time to listen to my opinions. I am looking foward to the next installment and I can only dream of what it will be like on a next generation console!


DJ Chris Geo

Halkatla
10th Aug 2005, 20:58
Hi! :cool:

I´m not gonna spoil anythig just say what I think of the game in general...

I´m new here and have just finished the game...
And it was Great... :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
I was mad at the camera angle and so at first but you get used to it....

It took me many hours to manage this... I´t was hard many times, and I got stuck... :confused: Then the forum helped me on my journey.... After trying for many many times....
Tanks all for the help threads ;)

I really hopes there is going to be more games... *lol*

I´ve only played Defience and BO2 so I can try the erlier games in the wait for a new game...

Cheers!

/Mia

VampireKain
11th Aug 2005, 00:05
Storyline - 10/10
Graphics - 9/10
Gameplay -8/10
Sounds & Musik - 9/10

No coment on the storyline!!! :D
The graphics-beautiful architecture,exellent models of the charachtars,brilliant motion capturing!!!!!....and so on.....
It is 2005 and there r games like GTA-SA or WoW( hits ) that just can't compare
with LoK:D graphics
Gameplay-the camera is bad yes.I've played Defiance so many times and if u get used to the camera there r no problems.The telekinezis is great!!!!WOW the combat system and the telekinezis r great combination.Later I can post a link to a movie I made where u can see how I'm slaping them :cool: ;)
Sounds & Musik - there r NO better voice actors!!!!! I gave 9 here onley cuz there is no new musik
That is my opinion :o

And I too ( like DjChrisGeo ) would like to walk in the town of Avernus and the Dark Wood!I awlays wanted this realised in Defiance :(

dsltech_dude
18th Aug 2005, 19:32
Hey everyone,

Just started Playing Defiance. And it is awesome. But I seem to be stuck right after you obtain the Light Reaver. In the main room(where you place Kain's family crest to open the door), there is a gate where I entered, but there is a door on the other side that I can't go through because I'm in the spectral realm. I can go through the door in the corner(Into where Kain's Mural is, and the TK orb), and can go out to where the moveable pillar and light reaver door is(shadow reaver required to enter), but can't get OUT of the mausaleum. Either I'm stuck by being in the spectral realm with a door, or stuck outside(with the rocks, fire, and moveable pillar) and two doors(maybe) neither of which are open.

Any suggestions?

Umah Bloodomen
19th Aug 2005, 00:19
Hey everyone,

Just started Playing Defiance. And it is awesome. But I seem to be stuck right after you obtain the Light Reaver. In the main room(where you place Kain's family crest to open the door), there is a gate where I entered, but there is a door on the other side that I can't go through because I'm in the spectral realm. I can go through the door in the corner(Into where Kain's Mural is, and the TK orb), and can go out to where the moveable pillar and light reaver door is(shadow reaver required to enter), but can't get OUT of the mausaleum. Either I'm stuck by being in the spectral realm with a door, or stuck outside(with the rocks, fire, and moveable pillar) and two doors(maybe) neither of which are open.

Any suggestions?

Greetings, dsltech_dude, and welcome to the Community! You may wish to utilize The LOKD Gameplay Help Archive (http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=27423) to locate the individual chapter threads which may provide you with a possible solution to your inquiry. If you aren't satisfied with what is found in the chapter thread(s), post in the individual threads and we will further assist you accordingly.

Thanks and happy posting! :)

tgfx
4th Nov 2005, 15:23
I must say that i have always been a huge fan of legacy of kain: soul reaver. That was the very first game i've played in the series. I also love Amy Hennig's passionate writing style but i just finished LOK and i thought to myself "what the hell happened?"...I mean even EA can design a better game then this. U can see that the passion for the story and the game was lost. Very disappointed...The game felt stretched...like there was a huge gap in the middle...The only part I did enjoy was when I met Turel. Anyway I know this game is abit old and I am too late to tale the tale that i am sure everyone was thinking but i thought i'd get that off my chest...This ends it for me.

KaOs_StOrM
10th Nov 2005, 16:45
I'm a nwbie in this forum, so i hope i do it well....

I loved this game, form the beginning to the end, the camera, the style of fighting (i've always love the DMC-kinda games.....) but theres is just ONE part i hate...

The part in where you have to jump in the pillars outside of voradors mansion.... i hate that part, i've never been able to do it in the first try....

But besides that, this game rocks.....

Just to let everybody know..... :D

KaOs_StOrM
10th Nov 2005, 16:50
Originally posted by GFX

U can see that the passion for the story and the game was lost.

:D Well, i think that the passion you feel for a game or whatnot, depends in how much you want to belive in that, if you, in the end let yourself be influenced, let it be by the camera, the fighting style, or somethign else... it's distort the way you wiew the game.... :)

ziar
5th Feb 2006, 11:09
Hey there,
I just wanted to start a Legacy of Kain: Defiance Reviews thread for all of you that have the game so far. Let us know what you think of it so far and how far you are in the game.

Please make sure to make use of the SPOILER vB code as not to spoil the game and story to others not as lucky to have the game yet.

Vae Victus! ;)

~Chris


hey i want see that this game is the best game that i ever have playd very nice story :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
comes there new version of these spell :confused: :confused:

bye :)

RedIvy
8th Feb 2006, 21:37
yep! i loved the game. Raziel and Kain both have incredible agility with super fast sword movements. althouh i must say that Kain's slashes were much faster as he is a heavy vampire guy with a light sword while Raziel is small and always seems to appear uneasy and yet super altert at the same with a huge reaver sticking out of his arm. Therefore his thrusts were just a little bit slower than Kains who obviously is bigger than Raziel.

Anwayz Stunning images and secens and super weather changes. Everything is beautiful in the game from the enemies to the two main charcters.

exmachinad
22nd May 2006, 15:50
I liked being able to play as both Raz and Kain, the storyline, the great graphics.

I HATED the stupid, annoying camera, the recicled soundtrack and the repetitive levels (forging a reaver fo for the seventh time in the same way is just NOT fun).

I hated the recycled intro as well! Why the game don't have its own awesome intro like the others in the series? Low budget?

I wish the game had more good and inventinve puzzles like SR 1 and 2. I really miss that.

Elemental Law
24th Oct 2006, 06:03
I think that if a game as well composed as Defiance hits the market it will be at least decent in sales. Since it seems that projected sales are the problem; perhaps there could be a commercial for Defiance 2 like there was for Soul Reaver 2. It could emphasize how it's the final chapter to a classic game and could interest possible players by saying in brief "if you weren't interested before, then now you will be because the story is complete..." Also, the fact alone that Defiance didn't have a commercial could have been damageing, since the whole audience of so-so's could have been unaware that Defiance existed and every one who didn't know about LOK before at all would not have been able to realize what it was about or how it could appeal to them.

These are just loose suggestions, but perhaps they could be useful.

(...by the way, Raziel's void white eyes were very annoying to me, they seem unfinished animation wise...)

IG-88
30th Dec 2006, 17:04
I have tloved the legacy of Kain Series for some time now, and 2 of my biggest friends and helpers have been Umah and Vampmaster....I have Definace now i bought it this past Monday, and although it is late because i am just now 3 months removed from my time in Iraq, This is the most Awesome of the Series to me thus far. The only thing that throws me is the camera angles; why couldn't they leave it like they had it in SR2? it doen't matter because i am a loyal fan of this series so i deal with it, i love it especially being able to play Kain in his bad(Uknowwhatform) Kain is the man period! I am now at the point in the story where I have just foundthe bronze disc in Raziels part of the sory after aquiring the Fire Reaver. I have no stragety guide and am playing blind, Is there somwhere i can go to get help in certain places. Thanks and this is what a true welcome back home safe present should be like. To Umah who remembers me as Vegeta(used to be) I am going to check out your site. But Thanks everyone for supporting us while we were over there. and Thaank eidos for a great story and game. I am being attacked by magical Sarafan or Vampire Hunter people right now so I gotta bounce. Peace.

Umah Bloodomen
30th Dec 2006, 17:43
Hey there, Stranger. Long time, no chat!

You may want to check the in-forum help archive (http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=27423) we established awhile back. It will direct you to the individual game help threads. If you're not finding what you're looking for, post in the appropriate thread and we'll help you accordingly.

As far as my site goes, I abandoned the effort (I've got a filler-site on MySpace) reserved for news and socialization purposes.

Welcome back!

IG-88
2nd Jan 2007, 21:00
:eek: I am in a dilema, I am stuck and when i used the correct part of the help forum there was no solution to where i am in the game. I have recovered the BLOOD DRINKER SPEAR and put it in the right place but i now have 2 problems. (1) Raziel cannot use TK underwater and there is a wall that can be air blasted underwater. (2) There is a wall out in the Back Courtyard with 2 wall sconces lit. I used the Fire Reaver to light them all but see no clear way to aquire the Water Reaver being that the room i now occupy has that Lethal White mist in it Blooddrinker is the on;y spear i have found thus far. So What do I do Can someone point me in the right direction Please.:confused:

agharamz
27th Dec 2008, 18:10
just stumbled upon some screenshots of the sequel

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=341796

also i was hoping if any of you where interested in signing a petition against the cancellation of lok the dark prophecy maybe this will make the developers change their mind rather than release another crappy lara croft game.

you can sign it here:
http://www.petitiononline.com/LOK10010/petition.html

keep the lok series alive it's up to us the fans

YOU HAVE A VOICE IT'S TIME TO USE IT:thumb:

Linikratyo
27th Dec 2008, 19:23
just stumbled upon some screenshots of the sequel

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=341796

also i was hoping if any of you where interested in signing a petition against the cancellation of lok the dark prophecy maybe this will make the developers change their mind rather than release another crappy lara croft game.

you can sign it here:
http://www.petitiononline.com/LOK10010/petition.html

keep the lok series alive it's up to us the fans

YOU HAVE A VOICE IT'S TIME TO USE IT:thumb:

You see... you are a bit late, because everyone on this forum knows about The Dark Prophecy already....

The_Hylden
27th Dec 2008, 20:40
What this is really too late for is to matter in canceling the game, or not. It was apparently canceled about 5 years ago now... Whatever new LoK CD might make may, or may not use the stuff presented in these screens. If they did, fine; if they started from scratch also, that would be fine with me. Basically, though, there's nothing to petition against here.

Also, there's a long-standing petition to get a new game period that already has a couple thousands votes, I think (mine, among them). It's been in the works for a couple of years now. A new petition now will not match that one, and only will confuse things. CD and Eidos know of that petition by now also.

Shrykull_the1st
17th Jan 2009, 09:56
SR2 was a graphic marvel. And Defiance was to, however, I don't think it got to the level of its predecessor. One of the things I sometimes found a bit harsh on the eyes was some of the floor textures. For instance: when Raziel returns to Voradors Mansion, when he's speaking to Moebius, the floors texture seems to scaled up. In fact, when then Moebius throws the sword to the ground, you notice that something is not quite right... Another example is the final cutscene in E.G. lair, the samething happening again. The texture from the floor seems to suffer from the same problem, it hasn't that much definition. When Moebius falls dead, he doesn't even seem to fall on ground but on some blur thing (don't know if that's quite the term).

Another thing that wasn't preety to see was the change from those far distanced models to the up close models. When the camera is far enough from the Sarafan warriors, they're faces are green! (red, blue, depending on the outfit) then drasticaly change to their helmets. Hated that. The same thing happened with Kain and Raziel. And even with some defunct possessed guys wich showed wings from far away and when the camara moves close to them the feathers disapear. Why?

Yet another thing was some faulty attention they payed to the cenario construction. When you are in the Vampire Citadel, if you go all the way to the perimeters end and then look up to the tower, you'll see that a bit of the main tower wasn't built! Why? It was only 1/6 of the building they had to complete! This one I think I hate the most, and everytime I pass by, I can't help not to look.

Then there is the one in the final momments, when Kain is healed from the scar but then he has it again when he defeats E.G.! Is just like on BO2, the appearance and dissapearance of the Nexus Stone on Kains chest. And to see him carrying it just after he throwed it on the portal....man!! How do they let these mistakes pass to the final game?? Who is responsible for checking them out, the testers?

The game is so perfect in story, that I become also very demanding on the game itself to be perfect.

They are my favourite games, no doubt.

Anyway, I hope someone still sees my post and share some opinions.

babifrence
17th Jan 2009, 19:14
Hi there,

Shrykull, I for one can assure you that is not the fault of the testers. Sometimes (rarely), bugs do slip through the net, other times the developers do not have the time.

Remember that every game that is ever created is a project. As such, it must be managed, has a finance and with all projects... they all have timelines, deadlines and milestones.

Only when devastating bugs (Class A) remain in the game does the testing phase continue until the issues are fixed. Typical class A bugs include corrupted branded logos (such as Ferrari name and emblem in Outrun for example), game crashes, not being able to complete a level because of an obstacle that is unpassable, etc...

Games are outstandingly expensive to make from beginning to end and Crystal Dynamics are a really big and highly reputable developer. Their quality of programming is definitely not one to complain about. I still aspire to work for them one day even if it means living in the states (since I live in the UK).

Its rarely the developers fault that bugs arent fixed in time. Its Eidos - they are the publisher and they are forking out the funds. The longer a game remains in testing the more it costs to develop. Why you ask? Well, instead of the game ending its project cycle, money is still being spent on programmers to fix whatever flaws are devastating enough that the game cannot be released. If programmers are still fixing this also means that testers are checking the quality of their code by ensuring their fixes work and that there are no issues there after.

I have team lead many games myself since I worked at Sega, most of which were ports of existing games. As my team was often very small I did playthroughs and most of the testing myself. I was very determined to ensure games were released into 100% bugless products ready for the shelves. The truth of the matter is that the reason games are never bugless is because games have an estimated life span. Sometimes it can be extended within reason should the budget allow for it. However, 9 times out of 10 games are released in their current state and then manufactured.

The QA Manager sat down with me and explained the nature of the games industry and generally how things work. I came to realise that no matter how hard I worked to find the flaws and ensure they were fixed that I could not always help to create an immaculate product. Sometimes developers ignore bugs because they are "by design" or they dont foresee certain issues as being bugs. Continuity flaws such as Kain scars would be considered "Class C" bugs because they tend to be cosmetic and dont affect gameplay. Personally if I were playing an LoK game I wouldnt like to be testing it all day everyday since it sucks the life out of its beauty (no pun intended there :p). I am certainly interested in how and why things end up the way they do when the original script would be somewhat different at the Alpha - Beta stages.

As a result some console games suffer because you cannot release a patch for a product. As a very passionate PC gamer I am very lucky, because most games I own tend to have a patch released at a later date. So I can enjoy gameplay without being interrupted by a rude and unexpected error.

Thats just my 2 cents in there.

I dont do games testing anymore, I am an IT Systems Engineer and Support Specialist. A key skill I had always possessed prior to being employed and chosen by Sega to work for them, was that I had a very keen eye and paid much attention to detail.

PEACE!

Shrykull_the1st
17th Jan 2009, 20:20
Exactly, I too tend to be very perfectionist when it comes to things I like.

Two more things I forgot to mention is for example, when Kain is in that big bridge in the Sarafan Stronghold, if you're standing on the wooden bridge and go to first person view, the bridge dissapears. Another thing is if you finish the level 'Pillars of Nosgoth (500 years later)' in the spactral realm, there is a tree standing in mid air!

But ok...I now know how these are considered minor flaws and they don't waste time with them....STILL, these are somethings that I would avoid at all cost, because I, for one, really hate to see these kind of mistakes.

Thank you very much for the explanation. I probably won't go down that path, but I would love to be involved in making games...

vandemm
31st May 2009, 09:45
I played it in 2006 or 2007

Great Story, Graphic design and Characters...

I WISH
1. Camera : It would have been stunningly SIMPLE to give the CHOICE of 3rd person. The owrld is 3d, what would be the problem? Any 3d game works great in 3rd PERSON

2. Opponents be more diverse

In all of the games
. Raziel is made so small and pathetic phisically, it is so sad..and he has been bigger than kain great now he looks like a 19yr old..

JanosAudron001
24th Nov 2009, 16:09
I think LOK defiance is the best of the series so far!! I hope i get to enjoy more titles of LOK in the near future!!

And yes as you can tell I'm new here and i love Janos audron! :heart: And Raziel! :heart: :heart:

Valaquen_
24th Nov 2009, 16:47
For me, SR2 was the best, with SR1 very closely behind (SR1 had a better, more dreary mood, and a fantastic score) but SR2 was the grown up, more complex sequel. Defiance was too much a compromise, too un-LoK like in gameplay, horrible Raziel character model. Good nevertheless, but not my favourite. In the mood to play SR2 now :)

HornyWaterBuffalo
26th Nov 2009, 01:17
I actually have a question.

In the small cave before entering the Air Temple, to obviously attain the air reaver with Raziel, the switch behind the large moveable rock can't be activated... I've done it once before, but can't remember if there is something to do beforehand.

Help greatly appreciated.

raladin3d
9th Feb 2010, 17:41
I actually have a question.

In the small cave before entering the Air Temple, to obviously attain the air reaver with Raziel, the switch behind the large moveable rock can't be activated... I've done it once before, but can't remember if there is something to do beforehand.

Help greatly appreciated.

use the walkthroughs on youtube, they can greatly help you remember :P

raladin3d
9th Feb 2010, 17:51
The story line of ALL of the soul Reaver series are the best till today, You can even change it into a movie and it would still be considered as one of the great movies.
Now speaking of Soul reaver defiance here is my ranking
Camera Mode:- 6.5/10
the thing with the camera man, I gotta say, kind of brought me down, it is like making the game easier, it is just like showing you what to do, and where to go, I would still rather the kinda of thinking game.
Puzzles:- 7/10
The game unlike the previous Soul reaver, did not satisfy me with the puzzles, there was less puzzles and easier ones.
Storyline:- 8.5/10
All of the unknown info becomes understood in this series, But I still like Soul Reaver's 1 Story line more than the newer ones.

so anyways, you can say that I love Soul Reaver

Kain FTW
8th Apr 2010, 04:50
yeah making a movie to finish off the story would be badass.. Movies about vampires make bank!! even really bad ones