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Gumdrop
5th Nov 2003, 18:54
Bah... After a lengthy previous post about my last run though T1, and my subsequent statement that it would not be installed again until I had my pure Thief rig set up, I find myself once again with a full install at hand, and a grubber (never quite worked out what they are) or three on my brain. :o

Ok. Undercover. With the lights off and me stuck with a couple of fanatics and a rather expensive looking hammer staring me in the face... The hammer on the alter in the chapel. How to?

This is obviously an AI watch object script. No matter how you go about grabbing it, they notice it's gone. This script is used quite frequently in FM's, and sometimes (very ingeniously) not for the use it was intended. So I'm wondering if the ghosting pro's have found a way around this?

I delved into the FAQ's and read Lytha's writeup of this mission, and she managed to grab the hammer becouse the two guards were away somewhere else searching for her. I am a little confused here. I always read the ghosting reports, and have noticed players will not count certain AI responses as failed. The latest one I can remember was a FM Peter played where he turned on machinery which caused the AI to go on alert. He hid until they calmed down and chalked it up as success. I don't want to start another Cistern type debate ( :D ), but a few pointers/views as to the go/no-go on this would be good.

Peter - Again, reading the archived threads, you said you had ghosted/perfected all TG missions except "Escape". I managed to back track and find your report on Undercover, and there you talked about not being able to get out unseen after the alarm had been raised unless you piled up crates, but you said doing this mean't you couldn't gain all the loot. I assume you are talking about stacking crates in the ditch (dry river bed?) you need to cross to enter? I haven't checked yet, but I'm sure I can remember reaching this from the garden area, so I assume you used this route to haul your crates. But how does this effect your ability to grab all the loot (if you can remember)?

A few more questions...

Entering a inverted hammer area (which you must do) can prompt the Hammer's to spout off about novices not being permitted. Was/has this mission been ghosted without alerting the Hammer's in this way?

During that Cistern debate, Clayman said he was going to revise the ghosting rules a little. I can't remember if he posted a revision, but if he did, why isn't it in the archive/FAQ section?


Edit: One last thaught. Is there any other troublesome spots I need to be aware of in this mission (if anyone can remember)?

Oh... and don't go tellin' me about no darn keystone tree. :mad: :p

That is all. :)

theBlackman
5th Nov 2003, 19:36
You can enter the "off limit" areas. IF you do it when there are no guards to see you enter or leave.

As for the "no novice" you are exposed to all the guards while you wander through the place because of your "passport".

IMHO Being warned as a novice should not count as "alerting" as the guards do not alert to an intruder. They merely remind the "novice" of the rules of the establishment.

An alert should be "Hey there's a thief." or some other such active search for an intruder. Not a normal function of the conditions of your being there.

In <s>UNDERCOVER </s> insert Bedfellows. :o you MUST contact the hidden HAMMERITES as part of the conditions of the game. This is the same as being reminded by the guards. Neither the Hammerites in the cellar, nor the guards on patrol are "alerted" to the presense of an "intruder".

Gumdrop
5th Nov 2003, 19:59
Originally posted by theBlackman
In UNDERCOVER you MUST contact the hidden HAMMERITES as part of the conditions of the game.

Huh? Are you thinking of Strange Bedfellows? I usually skip this one as I just don't like it so I can't remember much at all, but it sounds like it to me. Undercover is your first foray into the Builder's home.. so to speak.

I agree with you about the novice alert thing. The ghosting game would have been up at the gate if the rules interpreted normal reactions from the hammers. I do think though, that a smooth ghost would not permit novice intrusions. Well, put it another way... I want to cut them out if possible.

There is a room down the main stairs and to the left, if my body compass is working, that has a Hammer in it just standing there. I opened the door and took a few steps in and he fed me a line or two. I have not returned to the game yet, but I am sure there were a few snatchables on the table (a long dinner table). Maybe he pauses there on his patrol? I didn't stick around to find out.

Something else I was thinking about. There seems to be many (atlest 4) conversations between two Hammer's that happen, and they don't start doing their rounds until you enter the room brush and trigger the banter. I might be able to use this to my advantage, although I'm sure all must be triggered to reach the loot.

theBlackman
5th Nov 2003, 21:18
LOL you are right I was mis thinking. Bedfellows is the one I crossed mentally. Thinking about hammerites and alerts short circuited my mental processes.

:o

Enter main lobby. Cross corridor into main floor. Down stairs. Left corner = Training room.
Left room (first one) is a bed room.

Turn left go to end of hall =Kitchen Dining room area. Dining to the left, Kitchen straight ahead.

If you turn right, you have another bedroom, then down the hall the High priests room, and at the end of the hall the kitchen (again).

The guards patrol, so you can find the halls and the kitchen empty at times.

Vanguard
5th Nov 2003, 22:34
I've heard at less than Expert difficulty levels that there is a rope arrow to be had, so you can just rope up to the platform with the cages for the switch and talisman. Otherwise, with a speed potion (don't remember if you really needed one), you can dash off the hammer emblemed platform and just make it to the cage platform.

Peter_Smith
7th Nov 2003, 06:19
Originally posted by Gumdrop
Peter - Again, reading the archived threads, you said you had ghosted/perfected all TG missions except "Escape". I managed to back track and find your report on Undercover, and there you talked about not being able to get out unseen after the alarm had been raised unless you piled up crates, but you said doing this mean't you couldn't gain all the loot.Gumdrop,

I don't think I said that because, for one, it is clearly untrue.:) In "the old fuddy duddy reunion" thread I listed missions I had done. I did ghost Escape. I failed ghost in Bonehoard (fire dude), Lost City (spiders at beginning), Undercover (elected to take loot instead), and Maw of Chaos (fire elementals). I think I got through Maw once before, but I have never done the others.

Anyway, in Undercover and other missions, according to the original rules and interpretations thereof, it was ruled that an alert caused by a scripted event does not count if you were not seen or heard. Taking the hammer in undercover was ruled to be such an event. Taking the eye in RTC is another. The archer fight in LoTP is a third. In Undercover and RTC, they alert to the alarm but not to you. According to those rules, which were agreed by all ghosters at the time, all you had to do to ghost Undercover was to get out without being seen after the alarm went off. That in itself is very difficult. It is a worthwhile challenge that I hate to see runined by a more technical or "realistic" (as some would say) interpretation of the alarm.

In Undercover, I got back out in ghost mode as far as the altar in the entry of the chapel, which was guarded. I was pinned down there and decided to take the hammer and run for it. Afterward I learned it was possible to get out by another route, stacking crates, but I never tried that.

Clayman did propose some revised rules after the Cistern / Bugbeast brouhaha, but they were not accepted by all players, including yours truly. I don't remember if those posts still exist, but you could do a search if you want details. The new rules attempted to close all loopholes and all lax interpretations, including interpretations made previously by Clayman. I personally thought that the proposed rules were too rigorous and took the fun out of the game. Like no killing, even if it is an explicit objective. So you play along, get the objective, and you are busted. Or you start a mission and you are busted before you play it. No fun, IMO. The proposal also invalidated a bunch of previous runs, which I did not like, so you get into discussions of what rules you were operating under.

I have always held, as was the case in the original rules, that if you did not cause the problem and if you were not heard or seen, you were clean. Like the infamous bugbeasts. I continue to play by those original rules. Other can do what they want. I don't think it matters so long as you confess to all unusual happenings and enjoy yourself.

Gumdrop
11th Nov 2003, 01:15
Originally posted by Peter Smith
I don't think I said that... Sorry. I spent a good hour and a half reading post after post and never took notes. :o

Thanks for your input. I have yet to go back to the mission as I had a heavy work load at the weekend, but I hope to get stuck in again tomorrow night.

I was thinking those AI_object_watch thingies work on line of sight. I'm not certain, but if so, I should be able to block the Hammer's view and grab the gold hammer from the altar. The speed potion is certainly interesting though. If I can find one, or maybe one is available on loadout (I never baught anything) then things may turn interesting.

Thanks again folks. :)

clayman
30th Nov 2003, 22:58
Glad to see there are one or two still trying this mode of play. :)

Huntress
30th Nov 2003, 23:11
Hey Clayman...how are ya these days? Nice to see you drop in...have you been following the little we've been fed on T3? Seen the trailer, etc.? There's quite a bit of discontent (me included) regarding the new Deus Ex game :( Doubtfull I'll get it now, at least not more considered till a patch and price come down? I'm so disappointed as I really wanted to get this game along with T3 but don't want to play a consolized version, meaning the interface/mouse/commands/unified ammo/etc., etc. and I hope to god they don't do similiar crap with T3!!! Ta and Good Hunting!

"When we started working on Invisible War, we targeted the console from day one. This time it wasn't an afterthought. Every decision we made along the way considered that we would be running on a console. And I think you'll notice the difference." -- Matt Baer, Ion Storm

Sneak
2nd Dec 2003, 00:17
Clayman,
Has been soooooo long, remind me...what mode of play are you referring too there! ;)

And Gumdrop,
It was ALL your fault ! :cool:

teleport this! HA!

Nice to see you guys still around! :)

Peter_Smith
2nd Dec 2003, 03:25
Gee, Sneak and Clayman show up within a two day span. Welcome back.:D We are honored to have you.

Ghosting is not as competitive as it once was, but it definitely lives. Several of us play that way as a matter of course. If it starts to get ridiculous, I am likely to give up. Dafydd, however, hangs in there. His recent work in L'Arsenne is an example. I gave up on that because it was just too difficult to find my way.

Join us. We need more active ghosters.

clayman
3rd Dec 2003, 00:59
I join no one, I remain in the shadows.

But the good news is, I won't knock you out if you pass by; it's against my religion. :D

Peter_Smith
3rd Dec 2003, 07:25
Ah Clayman, that is a new-found demeanor. Are you born again? I know there is a lot of that in Tennessee. :D

clayman
5th Dec 2003, 23:30
Ha....no new found demeanor; I only said I wouldn't blackjack you, not that I'm above a Fire Arrow Enema. :D