View Full Version : SPOILER!! Why Raziel cannot be trapped in the Reaver.

3rd Nov 2003, 08:45
I think we ought to look closely at the pillar of time. The Ancients were originally chosen to serve the pillars which means at some point in history there was an Ancient Vampire who was able to use the Chronoplast Chamber. That explains how they knew of Raziel and why they forged the reaver for him alone. Our little demonic pawn could not have been an Ancient because the Chronoplast Chamber foretold his coming long ago which explains why Janos was left to guard the reaver in the Aerie. Janos may have seen Lt. Raziel in the Chronoplast image (much like the one's we saw of Raz smashing Ariel) or been told of him by the Ancient Guardian of the pillar. This could explain why he was shocked to see him half dead. Another thing the Ancients may have known was the introduction of the paradox and loss of memory that could possibly occur (in this case Raziel) which could explain why they drew all those purty little pictures to help him put 2 and 2 together. The Ancients could not have been that stupid if they had the Chronoplast Chamber in their paws before Moebius was chosen to serve the pillar.

I think Kain may have brought the Reaver from the future (with the soul of Raziel) purposely to shatter it's physical form. It was intended for him to be simbiotically bound to the wraith blade for the purposes of locking and unlocking the pillars through the use of elemental energy. I don't think the physical blade is capable of being imbued with elemental energy because Raziel's coming would be pointless. Whoever forged the reaver was clever enough to make sure if it fell into the wrong hands it couldn't be used against them.

The first introduction to the physical blade "leeched Raziel's soul-energy" and "just before I reached the blink of oblivion" the reaver released it's hold on Raziel. At this point it no longer was his symbiotic weapon and competed for control. Moebius witnessed this first hand and realized he could trap Raziel in the blade by disabling his "symbiotic" weapon.

The second time around (he met Kain in the Chapel) allowed him to redirect his path in the right direction again with the destruction of the physical blade when he refused to kill Kain. It was never intended for Kain to die, nor for Raz to competed with the reaver for control over himself. This was re-written.The blade was destroyed initially to free the soul from the physical blade in SR1 intentionally.

Kain was aware that the blade would consume Raziel with the fragile alliance created by restoring William's reaver in the Chapel. It had to be physically destroyed again in order for things to stay on course, sparing his life so that he could restore balance as he was chosen for the job from birth.

Moebius discovered that by presenting the physical blade to Raz , in another time, the Wraith blade along with Raz could both be trapped in the reaver as they are simbiotically bound together. At that moment in time.

This is crucial to forging the reaver with elemental power as Kain is obviously not able to do this with the physical blade. He can't save Nosgoth if he's trapped inside that stupid blade.. sorry... I just ain't buying that story.

#2) The Hylden. The pillars are the lock which keeps them in that relm and the reaver is the key. If the reaver is the key that sealed them in this other dimension then the paradox at the end of SR2 may have caused a reshuffling that unlocked the pillars and released the Hylden from the dimension they are trapped in. Kain specifically said that they had walked into a hylden plot..

Hylden plot: 1) escape relm 2) extinction of vampires means the pillars may choose Ancient Hylden guardians 3) take over the pillars.. Which would explain why the "one's pulling the strings" are so obsessed with the extinction of the Vampires..

The pillars choose their guardians at birth and since vampires are no longer born they have to choose someone. In the era of SR1 there was nothing left when Raz emerged from the Spectral Relm. So Kain must re-write history in order for the pillars to choose new guardians.

Which leads me back to that mysterious Ancient Vampire who foretold the coming of the Balance Guardian Kain who would restore Balance and give birth to the 10th Guardian of the Key which only he can simbiotically be bound to and activate at will. If the Guardian of the Reaver is trapped in the physical blade he can't save anyone from anything nor can he guard his position..

my two cents..

EDITED: to clear up some things.. I did this at 1am while workin the graveyard.


3rd Nov 2003, 09:23
Ie the soulreaver was never forged that was the blood reaver.

The first introduction to the physical blade devoured his soul almost destroyed him.

Umm no Raziel soul is never destored, he is absorbed and becomes the wraith blade.

And there is time travel.

Btw Raziel has to absoreb to have the wraith blade, it cant exsest unless he is absorbed.

I would go on but i am to tired.

3rd Nov 2003, 10:14
does kain get any elemental reaers in defiance? I know he has upgrades. Don't think they're elemental (seeing as we know there's a demension reaver)

I only read the first half of your theory. It was too much work at this time of day, sorry. I'll try to read it properly later. It looks a little odd to me though. While it makes sense in some way it doesn't seem to in others. But that could be me not readin it properly.

3rd Nov 2003, 11:33
Kain and Raz didn't meet in Avernus in SR2 (it was the sarafan stronghold).

Although they might in Defiance since it's mentioned as being in the game on the official site.

Kakarot, I get what you mean about the elemental upgrades only being available for Raziels wraith blade and the conceptual upgrades only being available for the physical blade. However it has been suggested that the ancients intended for him to be trapped inside it. He can't be consumed by the Soul Reaver because it's his own soul and if his soul gets devoured then it can never become the soul inside the Reaver that's doing the devouring. Kain and his brood didn't wipe out the humans, cause they'd have nothing to feed on if they did. And the Soul Reaver did used to be the Blood Reaver.

4th Nov 2003, 01:02
After the encounter with Kain in William's Chapel, I don't think Raziel needs the physical form of the reaver at all. He is able to activate every elemental font in Nosgoth. The catch is he has to time travel to activate them as they no longer exist in his future.

The Dark Forge was activated by Raz in the era of BO1 after the decay of the pillars. The time streaming device he encounters propels him to the moment where he encounters Kain in the Chapel. In this era, he activates the forge of light before he re-writes history in William's Chapel. Shortly after, Raziel orders Moebius to send him to an era when Janos existed but Raziel would not be able to get to Janos as the elemental air forge is necessary and not accessible in the frozen era of the Sarafan Crusade.

There is NO REASON for Raziel to take hold of the Reaver in Janos's Retreat or the Sarafan stronghold. It's quite obvious that he just has to leave that era alone as his true purpose there was to activate the inactive elemental fonts.

The reshuffling of history provides the elemental forges in the past and present once they have been activated.

If he could've avoided repeating his history he may have been able to time travel to an era where Janos was alive again, since he was already traveling through the past. However, I think the reshuffling at the end of SR2 may have altered the memories of key individuals such as Janos in all times.. Janos may not remember Raziel the next time they meet if they meet at all.

Reshuffling the events of history alters the memories of everyone including Moebius as we found out in Williams Chapel when he was caught off guard. Defiance leaves the whole game open for both to remain standing at the end if they reclaim there destinies. Kain would be using a reaver from the past which should remain there if he were to return to the future. Where the reaver no longer exists in a physical form allowing Raziel to remain symbiotically bound to the Reaver. They have to keep traveling back until they discover all of the reaver's secrets which died with Janos. I think Jano's mind has been altered to the point to where he wont remember anything or Raz may travel to time prior to Jano's having knowledge of him. So, Morty and Ariel will be very interesting encounters in Defiance...

5th Nov 2003, 21:49
I don't get it. If Raziel is sucked into to the reaver now, with the reaver attached to him wouldn't there be two souls in there. Then in future when he gets it it would be twice as strong, then three time, so on and so forth. If the wraith blade is not absorbed then what happens to it?

5th Nov 2003, 23:05
The reaver was not destroyed when raziel refused to kill Kain, raziel simply broke Williams tomb or coffin or whatever. As for your theory... you lost me somewhere. I'll have to read it again another time.

And as for...

Reshuffling the events of history alters the memories of everyone including Moebius as we found out in Williams Chapel when he was caught off guard.

Could you refresh my memory as to when this happened?