View Full Version : why no kainim

1st Nov 2003, 01:37
why did kain go straight to making raziel and letting him have a clan? why didnt kain make his own clan of kainim first? and why dosent anyone from CD join in these discussions?

1st Nov 2003, 01:48
The greatest strength of any leader is the ability to delegate. Why would Kain bother creating his own clan that he'd have to watch over, when he could just create six powerful lieutenants, and have THEM create and manage his army - and the only thing he had to manage was them? Seriously, which would you rather have to deal with - six people, or six million? Kain's just streamlining his operations, that's all.

As for the people at CD - I'd imagine, with two weeks left until Defiance's release date, that they're working like mad right now to make sure the project goes gold on time, and don't exactly have a whole lot of time to be cruising message boards right now - but that's just a guess.;)

1st Nov 2003, 01:52
but he didnt always have 6 lieutenants, they're was a time when he was all alone. what then

1st Nov 2003, 01:55
That time period was covered, by and large, in Blood Omen 2, when Kain worked with the Cabal, a group of Vampires, apparently largely sired by Vorador - Kain was just commanding those of his ilk that already existed. Presumably he made a few of his own, but nothing on the scale that his "children" would create in later eras.

1st Nov 2003, 01:58
i forgot about them, that works.

i was thinking as if kain acted alone after he reclaimed the reaver, i completely overlooked the cabal

1st Nov 2003, 02:00
by the way, what's with that quote of yours. i mean, what's it about? i'm interested

1st Nov 2003, 02:13
Kain is impotent.

No, really. It said so in Soul Reaver. Kain made six vampires in his entire two-thousand-plus years of existence, and the sixth one was so weakly made that his skin still rotted. Technically, the lieutenants are the "kainim," but there aren't enough of them to qualify as a clan, really.

I imagine he doesn't like to talk about it. And I imagine other people, out of, er, respect (yeah, that's it, not fear at all)... don't bring it up either.

Camus Audron
1st Nov 2003, 02:22
Riovannes, what you said is true, but only partially, as that is not all there is to it.

It is true it was easier for kain to lead only 6 Lts, but there's also the fact that Kain's vampire raising method is different, and doesnt allow for mass production.

If you remember Raziel's speech when he meets
melchiahhttp://www.nosgoth.net/Soul_Reaver/dialogue/page2.htm#necropolis(skip to the melcaiah title)
Raziel says that melcaiah was weak because he was made last, and he had the least portion of Kain's gift. As you see, his power got wore down by raising only six Vampires, he could have never raised any armies, and this is why he needs Vorador to raise his army in BO2, as it was stated, therefore none of the cabal was raised by Kain.

Also, Defiance has been Gold for a while, it was announced here a few weeks ago. The reason CD doesnt join in is because they feel it's unethic for a creator to enter a fan-forum, because it turns the fan-forum into a place of praise for the creator, instead of a place for exchanging thoughts between the fans, this was said by amy herself by the medium of Blincoln

One thing that is still unresolved, is how can the Lts raise mass vampires if kain didnt? judging from the quotes of SR manual, they have to raise vampires by the soul method too. http://www.dark-chronicle.co.uk/games/srstory.php(skip to the raziel title)

1st Nov 2003, 02:24
I don' t know, I mean to vamps even worry about that sort of thing? Besides, Raz doesn't seem to have a problem and he was born of Kain. I think he just ran out of juice in his later endevors (sp?). YOu know, kinda like Bob Dole, I'm sure you've seen the commercials.

Camus Audron
1st Nov 2003, 02:42
nope I havent....not everyone here is english or american you know...

I dont think he would make Melcaiah shabby if he had any other option, you know, these Lts would be his only aid for atleast a thousand years, and I dont belive he would be sloppy enough to make one of them flawed, if all he would have to do to make em perfect would be waiting a little while

1st Nov 2003, 02:59
What I said was more directed towards Stephenls' comment, and for humor's purpose alone. Deaking with Kain's age and hip prblems with "conceiving" (raising from the dead) his last child. Though I agree, Kain would not to create any shabby leutenants (sp?).

Oh, and it's a great commercial, I never wanted to hear about Mr. Dole's bedroom problems, but you have to laugh at it that he disscussed it in front of the entire U.S.

1st Nov 2003, 07:42
Technically, aren't Raziel, Turel, Dumah, Rahab, Zephon and Melchiah, the Kainim?

1st Nov 2003, 11:49
I'd like to know how all the lieutenants could make so many clan members if kain could barely make 6.

Was kain experimenting and therefore gave too big a portion to raziel to allow the others to be equal?


Did raziel et al only make 1-6 of his own clan and they just go on to make more members each instead of raziel personally siring them all?

I'd say each clan has a few hundred vamps. if raziel made 2 then those 2 could make 4 and those 4 could make 8 (more) and so on....

but technically that makes everyone kainim.....

RA Fox
1st Nov 2003, 12:06
fneh , as always , You discover an interesting theory.
That means I agree with it.

1st Nov 2003, 12:18
Originally posted by RA Fox
fneh , as always , You discover an interesting theory.
That means I agree with it.

but of course!:D

worship me!!!!!!!!!!:D ;)

RA Fox
1st Nov 2003, 12:23
It shall be done ! :D

1st Nov 2003, 12:57
I think that the following is an import fact to keep in mind: The six lieutenants were MUCH stronger than the Razielim etc., so maybe Kain could only make six of them (as you guys stated before his weakest even had a rotten skin, so he probably wasn't able to create any more), because they were so strong and took a lot of his "soul", while the Razielim didn't cost that much of Raziel's soul, since they were much weaker, so he could create much more of them! Don't you guys agree with me :D??

Kain The Ancient
1st Nov 2003, 19:54
As stated , the necromantic method Kain used to reanimate his sons was to use a part of his soul to draw the saraphan warriors sould back to their rotting corpses. His sons were made to be really powerfull vampires that could rule with him , not some weak fledglings vampires he would have to rule , so Kain must have used quite alot of his soul to create them , so much that he didn't have enough energy to create all of them equal , the last ones being much weaker than the first ones. It might have also taken quite alot of energy to draw the souls of beings dead for more than a millenium and recreate their bodies from what little remained of their corpses (only bones).

Kain's Sons had a much easyer task , they used a teeny portion of their soul to turn humans into vampires , who would in time get stronger. Thus , they were able to create alot of rather weak vampires , who in time could probably create other , even weaker vampires.

And that's assuming Kain's sons didn't have the ability to embrace humans. Kain didn't have that ability , but he was transformed into a vampire by Mortanius , which doesn't make him a "Regular" vampire. But his sons were created by a true vampire , who used a necromantic method , but that method might have allowed them to embrace fledglings anyway.

RA Fox
1st Nov 2003, 20:03
Rainy clouds have gone away :)

1st Nov 2003, 20:05
Kains children, i guess could be considered his clan. 6 members of his clan who then created there own clans for Kains armies.

1st Nov 2003, 22:54
Could someone please tell me what it means when a game goes gold?

1st Nov 2003, 22:57
When it comes time to press the CDs or DVDs on which a game will be shipped, a single disc is sent to the manufacturer to begin production - this is the "gold" disc. Basically, when a game leaves the development stages and begins its press runs, it has "gone gold."

1st Nov 2003, 22:58
Originally posted by Stukedogg
Could someone please tell me what it means when a game goes gold?

that all testing etc is complete and all that's left is to actually manufacture the end product for mass release

1st Nov 2003, 23:04
well my friend...

That rocks.:cool:

1st Nov 2003, 23:16
Originally posted by Riovanes
When it comes time to press the CDs or DVDs on which a game will be shipped, a single disc is sent to the manufacturer to begin production - this is the "gold" disc. Basically, when a game leaves the development stages and begins its press runs, it has "gone gold."

It's called the gold disc because the disc sent to the manufacturer is, in fact, gold-colored.

1st Nov 2003, 23:58
Ponder this conjecture for a moment:

Kain uses a portion of his soul to revive/create his six lieutenants.

This, in turn, means that each of these generals has a portion of Kain's evry essence within then.

Kain's soul, however, does not belong to him. His soul belongs to the pillar of balance.

So kain's entire life is now tied to the pillar and his children. The Elder god creating raziel to siphon the souls of his brothers was fulfilling the Hylden's desire to have kain killed and restore the pillars of balance. For even if kain dies, his lieutenants house portions of his soul which are -also- tied to the pillars.

Raziel now has five of the six souls within himself. One more, and if he kills kain, it returns his spirit to the pillars and creates new, more easily duped, pillar guardians to be manipulated by the hylden.

Horrible notion, eh?

2nd Nov 2003, 11:58
Because he was chosen by the pillar of balance doesn't mean that his soul is now the pillar's belonging.
The soul is his but he was born with the duty of serving, that's all.
(Correct me if I'm wrong though, Im just HALF-god and all :P )

Now what I think is :

Kain was raised from hell by a necromencer, wich means he isn't your ordinary vampire.
The 6 luitenants were raised from hell (they were evil right?) by a vampire and I think that even though he used necromantic magic to raise them they can still bite humans and turn them.

4th Nov 2003, 05:11
Originally posted by Insanity
Though I agree, Kain would not to create any shabby leutenants (sp?).

Wouldn't he? You must realize that Kain at the time of raising the Sarafan as his Liutenants had a lot of time on his hands (hint hint, chronoplast) And that he gave Raziel a large portion of his gift for a reason. Also, because Kain is fatalistic, he has always and will always make his Lt.s that way. That may not seem to make much sense, but I would wager that he purposely made Lt.s from weakest to strongest to give Jawless Raziel a kind of lader of progression so to speak that we see him climb in SR1. Kain never does anything unintentionally (once he's older and no one's using him).. and for those who doubt let me ask you this:

If Kain didn't want to create shabby Lt.s, then why did he make 6 as opposed to say 4 of the sarafan with equal proportions of his soul?

Kain knew what he was doing, and did everything with a purpose. Keep in mind that as the last remaining guardian that he is acting on behalf of Nosgoth's future and cannot afford to make mistakes when trying to make fate's coin land on its edge.

4th Nov 2003, 12:24
I think he only had so much soul to go around. So he made six and had them ressurrect their own clans using portions of their own souls and not Kains. I'd say that the Kainim clan is made up of all the others.