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WheresTheBeef
29th Oct 2003, 09:23
Aside from the ultimate sin of removing weapon hotkeys, where's the beef? Where's the $70 worth here?

"Blows its predecessor away"
Excuse me? Exactly "which part" is it suppose to "blow away"? Perhaps it's in the underlying code somewhere where I can't see it because it sure isn't in the fun factor area.

12 little maps and the game was over in one weekend. Not to mention the difficulty level is so low it makes BTCOD look impossible by comparison. Where's the selectable difficulty levels?

C2 had 10 HUGE maps, and 9 bonus maps (and some of those bonus maps much bigger than any of C3's maps!). :rolleyes:

BUGS, BUGS, and more BUGS!
- Officers dressed in privates uniform
meh... too many to mention

All those vehicles and you can't drive any of them. :mad: Took the fun right out of playing the game different ways. The only vehicles you can drive are the ones that end a mission! What happened to the fun of taking over a tank and creating some mayhem?

No cupboards in the houses to check for goodies... just a few boxes (most of which are empty - metal ones). No wine bottles... man, you took all the fun out of this one. The next game one would expect would have more features, not less :(

And what's with the fixed resolution? (800x600?) The characters look like back in the days of DOOM! ...although I'll admit you've always had the best texture artists on the planet... but come on... low res? And what exactly does High Detail do? :rolleyes:

This is a big step down from C2. No rankings, nothing to strive for. There is no point in playing it multiple times because (like its predecessors) it's predictable, but worse, there is no higher rank to strive for... no vehicles to steal, nothing to make it exciting the first time never mind the 2nd or 3rd.

$70!!!!!!!!!! It should have been $25... seriously! :mad:

I would have preferred to wait another 2/3/4 months until the game was finished. Yeah, it looks nice, but you scrimped on the playability and removed most of the fun, and any possibility of playing it a 2nd/3rd time.

I've never look this forward to a game and been this disappointed with a game ever. If it had of been $25 I might have brushed it off, but $70? :mad: And I couldn't wait for C3 to come out. :(

I hope when a patch comes out to fix the bugs that you do the right thing and include some bonus missions that should have been there in the first place, and restore the weapon hotkeys. At least try to compensate for the amount of money spent on this game.

WheresTheBeef
29th Oct 2003, 10:30
We need a FREE map pack to bring this up to the 24 maps it should have been and restore some of the gameplay features that made it fun.

FREE MAP PACK & PATCH PULLLLLLEEEEZZZ! :D

Foxtrot
29th Oct 2003, 11:05
My opinnion 2.
You didn't say the marine-driver caracter. WTF is this?? there should have been different like in C2 and add some skills to the driver.
Release a patch to solve the problems a map editor pack and leave the gamers continuu the series, that if the "proffesionals" don't feel up to the job.
As i said on another thread, in maximum 5 months after the release of C2 they should have release a addon with some other 12-16 missions and i was saing out laud thet i'm SATISFIED, but to wait a year or so for this, this is bull****.

Shadow Sliver
29th Oct 2003, 12:03
It's sad, I agree. They put down less work on the gameplaying and the missions, and goes for some environment improvements. Much more hard managed game, easy and not to fun missions, and less features (cant even change resulotion). Also the missions are few. And the effects on the price? Higher.

Less fun for the money, I'm deaply dissapointed. Give us a great big patch and we may accept it, but right now this is very bad manner to release a game like this (which honestly suck compared to c3).

Get_It
2nd Nov 2003, 04:13
Originally posted by WheresTheBeef
$70!!!!!!!!!! It should have been $25... seriously! :mad:
[/B]
nop... it should have been 12$

David
2nd Nov 2003, 05:51
Originally posted by WheresTheBeef
We need a FREE map pack to bring this up to the 24 maps it should have been and restore some of the gameplay features that made it fun.

FREE MAP PACK & PATCH PULLLLLLEEEEZZZ! :D

keep dreaming baby :p
pyro wont ever release a free thing! and if they would want EIDOS wont let them. i dont know anything free from eidos. and they wont make exclusions!

colonel lynx
2nd Nov 2003, 11:17
the fact that i finished it in a week makes the game not worth his money

i never play out any other game in less then a month, mostly two
or longer

a week of entertainement of this kind is not worth it's price
the best thing to do is indeed give a free ad-on, but why trow away money

i would like a comment from someone from eidos to know more about this

don't get me wrong, it's a great game and i really enjoied playing it, it's just a little easy, short, like it's illegal to work it out, to make a clip at the end of the game, or even at the start of a mission, things like that, i heard that in several missions different possibilities gave different consequences, really? u only had a choice in the elimination of the general, i liked that, why just once
a great game, but i would like to have some more extras and maybe longer, and why no nothing after i finished the game, nothing at all, mission over, game ended

thank god that there are no bugs and that
i did not lose all my safegames when i was about to start the last mission (and no the trick didn't work that time)
it's a good thing that is does not crash all the time losing all ur safegames

Snowden
2nd Nov 2003, 11:44
I got to see a short clip after I finished the game, didnt you get it? :confused:

colonel lynx
2nd Nov 2003, 13:34
no, strange.. i'll have to look in it, play it out again, from my last save

t0bbe
2nd Nov 2003, 15:30
I agree this game is defintly not worth the money. It don't "capture" you like c2 died. I mean that you can't let the game go you just have to continue playing but with C3 you don't want to play the crap.

Mike_B
2nd Nov 2003, 17:17
Ok the reason why colonel lynx didn't get to see the movie is probably because I already finished the game on my profile. He had to use mine because his was messed up, and it probably won't play it twice.

WheresTheBeef
2nd Nov 2003, 17:24
Originally posted by David
keep dreaming baby :p
pyro wont ever release a free thing! and if they would want EIDOS wont let them. i dont know anything free from eidos. and they wont make exclusions!

Many developers have "made up" for a bad release but sadly, in many cases, it was without the publishers knowledge (released through a 3rd party development team). However, it was still provided. Don't ask "who" as I'm not about to break my NDA.

Now you know why I say complain (not bash) to the publisher and NOT the developer. Because without the publishers consent, it's all at the cost of the developer (and connected 3rd parties). The publisher has more to lose with other titles if the customer is decides to boycott (for lack of a better word) it's products.

It would be foolish to think that the powers that be at EIDOS are unaware (if at least by now) that the quality and quantity of features of this produce does not justify the cost to the consumer, nor measure up to the expectations of the series. They are likely hoping this will quickly blow over. Don't let it!

If we follow your example of hopelessness, it plays right into the hands of those who hope it will blow over. Thus, we will surely see no attempt on their part to rectify the situation and justify the cost of this product with an olive branch of some sort.

Blizzard is probably the best example of a company who listens to its end users and continually provides product enhancements free of charge to create a better gaming experience. Blizzard always justifies the cost of their products which guarantees them consistent consumer confidence in future title sales.

Does EIDOS really want to become another EA? Pumping out poor quality in large quantities for income rather than quality? I should think not. It's a very fragile balancing act which could see EA bankrupt should a number of it's titles fail concurrently.

I should hope that EIDOS would want to be a leader in providing quality gaming by providing free updates to the end user in order to gain and maintain confidence of the consumer, thus increasing it's long term share of the market rather than using its quarterly income as a measuring stick against the "big boys". If you think shelf life and consumer confidence isn't a factor, think again.

Xcom
2nd Nov 2003, 18:39
Originally posted by WheresTheBeef
If you think shelf life and consumer confidence isn't a factor, think again.

Unfortunately, average consumer is not that smart. If a majority of consumers used a cognitive approach to buy games (like gaining information prior to buying, reading reviews, visiting forum), then perhaps what you say had mattered. Alas. Most people get influenced by hypes, clever marketing and make an emotional purchase. Like: "OMG. Tomb Raider, Tomb Raider. Buy. Buy." And then: "Damn, it doesn't work. I want my money back."
That C3 had low fixed resolution and no shortcuts could be deduced from the demo that was released some time before the full game. That it had only 12 missions became common knowledge here the same day C3 was released. But nooooo, lots of folks rushed to buy the game immediately after release, and only then came here complaining and blaming everyone except themselves.

WheresTheBeef
3rd Nov 2003, 04:30
Xcom,
Myself, I signed up for the Commandos 3 newsletter in the summer. Now, why, as a consumer, would I not assume that would provide me with up to date accurate information? The newsletter never sent out any "corrections" pertaining to prior erroneous statements.

If you expect every consumer to heavily research a product prior to purchase, your expectations are far too high. If you are trying to imply that you do this when purchasing every product, I find that extremely hard to swallow. Most will not invest the time, nor should they be required to. If that were the case, cars would have no recall simply because there would be no cars sold until the "bugs" were worked out, and since no cars were sold, no bugs would be found. Paradoxical? You decide. The same would be true of every product, including software. At some point, "someone" has to take the plunge. And for the record, most purchases are "emotional" by nature. Corporations depend on it.

The official site (linked to in the newsletter) which now takes you here http://www.eidosinteractive.com/gss/legacy/commandos3/
was rarely au courant with the latest information. If you notice, the demo was posted 10.13.03 - two days before release. Now, I checked perhaps once a week or two for a demo. I never saw one, and there was no notice to indicate there would be one, so I assumed no demo would be forthcoming. So when the 15th came, I bought my copy. I didn't happen to stumble across the forums until AFTER I bought the game. Regardless, I expected my true source of info (without the conjecture often found in forums) to be the newsletter.

Also, I think you're expecting a bit too much to assume each consumer is going to assume a forum exist for each product. The average consumer would not likely be aware. What you're saying is, a consumer should read the forums pertaining to a game prior to purchase, to see what other people who have purchased the game have to say about it. If we all did that, everybody would be staring at an empty forum waiting for the first sucker who bought it to report his findings.

Gaming Reviews - what an interesting concept. Just how untainted, unbiased, and reflective do you really think these reviews are? Regardless, which review is the "right" review? You are talking about something that is very subjective much like music.

Given all that, where exactly do you expect people to "come complaining" other than the forum which was set up to discuss the product? If you think the publisher is in no way responsible, I'd say you're in a minority in that opinion. Any publisher is responsible for the contents of that which it publishes. If that weren't true, publishing companies would be immune to law suits pertaining to content.

For the majority of those who bought the game, their "cognitive approach" was based on the previous version of the game (C2) and perhaps the advertising which implied C3 would be more extensive and an overall better gaming experience than its predecessor (Taken from one of your suggested reviews; “blows its predecessor away!”). There is no way you can convince many die-hard Commando fans that C3 is either a better gaming experience or is an enhancement over C2.

The simple fact is that a majority of people who based their purchase on prior experience of the Commandos series are not only disappointed, but shocked. They had a right to expect (notwithstanding the purchase price) that C3 would at least contain the features, qualities, and quantities (levels - effective play time) as that of C2. I surely didn't expect much less, for more money.

And btw, if people are anxiously awaiting the release of a game, it's ridiculous to assume they would run and check the forums the day the game comes out to see if it had the number of maps promised. What on earth would lead them to believe there would be a need to check for such a change anyway? :rolleyes:

Are you suggesting we should always assume the publisher/developer is lying until we (on the day of product release no less) visit a forum (often full of conjecture)? And no purchase should ever be based on its predecessor? :rolleyes:

Xcom
3rd Nov 2003, 17:12
If you are trying to imply that you do this when purchasing every product, I find that extremely hard to swallow. Most will not invest the time, nor should they be required to.


Not every product, but definitely computer games for PC. I've been doing this for many years now. I have never payed the full price for a game in which I was disappointed thereafter. I didn't buy (and play) Commandos 3. I'll wait peacefully till it hits discount bins or rentals (whichever comes first) and then pay anywhere from 2 to 10 bucks to play it, while you will continue whining about your lost 50 bucks. :D



Regardless, I expected my true source of info (without the conjecture often found in forums) to be the newsletter.


So, you think that info coming from publisher/developer itself is the "true" source while we all are biased here. Fascinating. :D
Let me ask you this, have you EVER seen a newsletter or the official website of a game that stated smth like: well, our game is not so good. You should think twice before buying it.



What you're saying is, a consumer should read the forums pertaining to a game prior to purchase, to see what other people who have purchased the game have to say about it. If we all did that, everybody would be staring at an empty forum waiting for the first sucker who bought it to report his findings.

I agree, but that's what I've said. Only the smart consumers who value their hard earned cash do that. ;)



Gaming Reviews - what an interesting concept. Just how untainted, unbiased, and reflective do you really think these reviews are? Regardless, which review is the "right" review? You are talking about something that is very subjective much like music.

I didn't imply that a review should be used to decide whether to purchase a game or not. Subjective as they are, reviews do offer information about a game. If you read several reviews, you'll at least have several opinions which do not originate from the makers of that game.



Given all that, where exactly do you expect people to "come complaining" other than the forum which was set up to discuss the product? If you think the publisher is in no way responsible, I'd say you're in a minority in that opinion. Any publisher is responsible for the contents of that which it publishes. If that weren't true, publishing companies would be immune to law suits pertaining to content.


I don't think publisher or devs are not responsible, and I didn't say that. I only said that you are responsible as well. Yes, you are. I know that no publisher wants to produce a bad game on purpose (except 3DO perhaps), but you can't expect an excellent product by definition. You can of course disagree with me which is fine, but it will be you losing 50$ every time, and not me. :p

As to "where to complain", that is a good question. This may seem like a good place (official Eidos forum and all that), but one should realise that complaining only makes sense if it reaches the "right" people (people who can do smth about it). This forum is for 99.999% inhabited by the same consumers as yourself. So in that sense, you are all complaining to yourself, and at some point, some members (who've been here slighly longer than others) may kinda get tired of redundant ranting even though they might agree with actual complaints. There are some Eidos people present here (all of whome are really friendly and helpfull folks), but AFAIK, they are not the ones in charge of ... how should I say.. Eidos' strategic decision making. I think it's worth mentioning that although we do allow negative remarks, critisism and complaints, we only do that provided they are presented in a civilized manner. Tripe like "This sucks. You suck. Die Eidos" usually gets removed (sometimes together with posting priviliges). So far, you WTB, have being doing an exampolary job. :D



For the majority of those who bought the game, their "cognitive approach" was based on the previous version of the game (C2) and perhaps the advertising which implied C3 would be more extensive and an overall better gaming experience than its predecessor.

You are proving my point. You got affected by advertising and marketing. No ad will ever say that game is not good. And reviewers may be affected as well. But again, I didn't say you should trust reviews blindly (and certainly not only ONE review).


I surely didn't expect much less, for more money.
~snip~ What on earth would lead them to believe there would be a need to check for such a change anyway?

How about the departure of Gonzo Suarez as the project leader from the team (announced some time after C2) that raised some concerns and indicated (at least for me) that Commandos 3 will be ... if not worse.. then at least different than its predecessor.


And no purchase should ever be based on its predecessor? :rolleyes:

Yep, but it's your money after all.. you can do whatever you wish and always hope for the best and expect the best. I prefer to hope for the best but expect the worst. :)

MajorHealy
3rd Nov 2003, 19:24
Originally posted by Xcom
I don't think publisher or devs are not responsible, and I didn't say that. I only said that you are responsible as well. Yes, you are.

Absolutely. And what this means for most people is that Pyro just left the short-list of game companies that didn't _need_ lots of research from consumers before buying their product.

I'm one who normally does the research on a game before buying, and have avoided many-a-ripoff in doing so. Not so with Commandos 3.

Pyro had performed top-notch with this series until now. I wasn't even aware that the game had been released yet, and saw it at the store - voila, impulse buy. I would only do this for a product in which I had "consumer confidence" (as Beef put it) and was already aware of the title, and that list is _very_ short.

But back up a sec - suppose I had read the reviews ... they're all saying it's a stellar game. They list the problems, but state that, in spite of them, the game is incredible. Two reviewers even made reference to the "HUGE MAPS" in the game. See my other recent post for the links.

And even more - say I'd played the demo. I would've been unhappy with the interface --- but even with the interface the way it is, that wouldn't have broken the sale for me at all.

What would've indicated to me that the levels would be so tiny? Or that they were beatable in such a short time? Commandos had only 10 "real" levels, this one has 12 ... where's the smoking gun?

The answer - I would've had to come here, or to a similar site where people had purchased the game before me and had my same expectations. This was a hard lemon to spot. No way I would've found out about the level sizes and game length/quality problems through normal channels, at least not so early.

So I appreciate Beef's and others' efforts on the board to call out this stuff. Plus, it helps anyone else that hasn't spent the money.

And while this may not be the absolute best place to post problems, it's certainly the best one I could imagine. When the game Fallout2 was released a few years back, Black Isle's message boards were flooded with complaints and harsh criticisms due to some game bugs related to a premature release. I can't imagine that they weren't alerted to just how seriously irate the customers were. For most development companies, this is one of the best (if not the only) places to get feedback so quickly. Plus, bad revews on your official site board is bad press that needs to be squashed by making things right with the customers.

Unfortunately, we're not just talking about bug fixes. The bugs in Commandos 3 are annoying for most and show-stopping for some, but they're fixable. I imagine the hotkeys issue can be fixed with a patch. But the lack of quality content is another story entirely - not something they can whip up in a couple of weeks.

Beef's suggestion of a free map pack is great, and I applaud his efforts to push for it and will agree that it should be done. I don't personally believe it'll happen, but it would be, in my opinion, the Right Thing To Do.

However, if they *did* offer a free map pack to supplement the final version, Pyro would quickly assert itself back on the short list of dependable game companies.

Meanwhile, you're right that it is on the consumer's head for buying such a product. But that just gives us more right to complain about it ;)

Morphiu§
4th Nov 2003, 00:02
Originally posted by Xcom
I think it's worth mentioning that although we do allow negative remarks, critisism and complaints, we only do that provided they are presented in a civilized manner. Tripe like "This sucks. You suck. Die Eidos" usually gets removed (sometimes together with posting priviliges).

I agree.


<edit>

Glad you do. -Xcom

WheresTheBeef
4th Nov 2003, 03:45
Well said MajorHealy. Now that you left me with little response ;) hehe

Xcom – I have just one thing to add to what MH has said; Your comments that people from EIDOS that do visit the boards here are not the “right” people in the sense that they can’t effect change, or rather, don’t communicate with the powers that be, is an indication that EIDOS has a very weak structure in it’s line of communication, and thus, has no consideration for the voice it gave it’s consumers via this board.

As MH pointed out with FallOut2, this is quite true of MANY other games. The pressure on Sierra (or VUG) from the many consumer complaints on their message boards regarding Nascar Racing 2003, not only pertaining to bugs, but the many features that users found unpleasant, were brought to bare and a patch was released which not only rectify the situation, but justified many of the consumer complaints. Result: Consumer confidence in VUG is good.

If you’re stating that EIDOS does not work in the same manner of (what appears to be) the majority of other publishing companies by making sure the voice they gave their consumers is heard by the powers that be, I would most surely not want to purchase another product published by EIDOS. If all we are doing here is talking to other users, and NONE of these complaints are making it to those that can effect change, then EIDOS needs to make haste and restructure the lines of communication. This does not bode well for the future of EIDOS.

Perhaps those EIDOS employees who do read the boards need to start passing along the concerns of the companies consumers. If they are to say that it would have no effect, no one would listen, this tells me all I need to know regarding this publisher.

Since EIDOS consumers voices are blocked from going no further than our own monitors, there can be no consumer confidence in ANY of the products they publish.

Regardless, I paid my money which entitles me to a degree of right in voicing my grievances here, which I will continue to do so until such time as I am either deleted, or heard by the powers that be.


PS – Since I admin the boards for a very popular TV show, I can assure you I understand your frustration regarding less than pleasant postings and users not using appropriate means to voice their opinions. With tens of thousands of users racking up 1000’s of posts on a busy evening, there are most certainly some posts where you have to question the sanity of some people. Having said that, we can’t just accept only those posts which positively reflect the show. People should be able to voice their opinions and be heard. Many suggestions/complaints from the forum users are passed on to the producers, and some effect changes to the show. If such a process can work in TV, and work with many other game publishers, surely it can work for EIDOS.

ragsy
4th Nov 2003, 05:14
i agree with all your sentiments WTB and MH


I stated at the release of C2 that it felt like an unfinished game, but those reasons seem to pale in comparison to the reason i have heard for not getting C3, I have held back buying this title as a result of reviews that were posted before C3 was released here in Australia...

And I'm glad i did

I spent around $600 (AUD) upgrading my PC in order to meet the C3 specs

and that was well spent, but i can't bring myself to buy this game...


the major issues for me are

the number of missions, i recall reading that the C3 missions would be smaller but there would be more missions than in previous titles, and they would be story driven...

From what i have heard the story is as disjointed as it was in C2 and there are now only ten or so maps...

Hotkeys...one of the most frustrating (for me) parts of commandos was coordinating moves of various commandos (anyone remember the BEL mission where you had to take out multiple enemy sappers near the bridge - well that would be damn near impossible without hotkeys), there is nothing more frustrating than being killed repeatedly due to a clumsy mouse interface

Screen resolution if i wish to change my monitor to 800x600 i will also have to spend a good 5 minutes with the adjustments in order to see the screen... this is not fun and i refuse to run other games at this level

Price
my beef with price relates to the problems, if the price was half then i could look past o lot of the issues

That all said ( i hope i haven't steped over the line XCom) i will be waiting for this game to hit the bargin bin, as it is a title i have loved regardless of it problems...

The only thing that would make me buy it now would be a promise of a Map Pack and a HotKey/resolution fix

WheresTheBeef
4th Nov 2003, 05:24
ragsy,
I love you sig! ha! Man I haven't played DOOM in so long. That was a great game! We used to have deathmatch lan parties that lasted all weekend long. Even made our own maps for killing fields.

But yeah, the half the missions thing and hotkeys are something that needs to be rectified. I could live with the resolution as painful as that would be, but not 12 tiny missions and no hotkeys.

Xcom
4th Nov 2003, 05:36
Originally posted by MajorHealy
I'm one who normally does the research on a game before buying, and have avoided many-a-ripoff in doing so.

Good.


Not so with Commandos 3.

Ouch.


Pyro had performed top-notch with this series until now. I wasn't even aware that the game had been released yet, and saw it at the store - voila, impulse buy. I would only do this for a product in which I had "consumer confidence" (as Beef put it) and was already aware of the title, and that list is _very_ short.

Do you think if company X makes an excellent title, that you are somehow _guaranteed_ that the next title will be equally excellent, especially if this title is a sequel? Nope, it is impossible to guarantee that. Personally, I think that Commandos 2 was worse than its predecessor. It wasn't a bad game by all means: the graphics were good, it was fun. But it was dumbed down by comparison to original games and it simply didn't have the same inpact on me. You may not share my opinion (especially if you haven't played original games or played them in reverse order). It's just damn hard to make a good sequel. You always lose a little sparkle of originality which the original may have created. (the same goes for movies)


And even more - say I'd played the demo. I would've been unhappy with the interface --- but even with the interface the way it is, that wouldn't have broken the sale for me at all.

Really? Not even raise some questions (and materialise a little light bulb above your head).. like.. "Wait a minute, if the interface is different and I don't like it, perhaps there will be other things in the full game which are also different, and there is a chance that I might not like them as well. So, I might just wait with this game." Hmmm...weird.


The answer - I would've had to come here, or to a similar site where people had purchased the game before me and had my same expectations. This was a hard lemon to spot. No way I would've found out about the level sizes and game length/quality problems through normal channels, at least not so early.

You don't consider official forums a "normal channel"? No? In any case, at least IGN mentioned 12 levels almost immediately after US release. It was posted here too (I think the day after, and IIRC by David). (people in Europe for instance had a week to wait for the game to be released there). If by any chance you've never heard about IGN, I can help you there.


So I appreciate Beef's and others' efforts on the board to call out this stuff. Plus, it helps anyone else that hasn't spent the money.

Only it's been my experience that most people come here only after they bought the game and usually if they have a problem of some sort. Truly sad.


I can't imagine that they weren't alerted to just how seriously irate the customers were. For most development companies, this is one of the best (if not the only) places to get feedback so quickly. Plus, bad revews on your official site board is bad press that needs to be squashed by making things right with the customers.

Why exactly should Eidos be alerted in the first place? The situation with C3 is not as bad as you are presenting it. Look at this from where Eidos is standing. The game's got good reviews almost everywhere. Not excellent, not great but simply good. An average of 7.9 at Gamerankings (that is pretty much the average of all available online reviews at the time). On some of the sites there are also readers's score and maybe you'll be surprised to know that it doesn't differ that match from the official score. True, there are 30 people here who voted that they are not pleased with the game. Bah, big deal. You can't please everyone. Yeah, there are some bugs. As if it's the first time a game has bugs. So what? Make a patch, fix the bugs, all's good.


Beef's suggestion of a free map pack is great, and I applaud his efforts to push for it and will agree that it should be done. I don't personally believe it'll happen, but it would be, in my opinion, the Right Thing To Do.

I applaud his efforts as well. http://forums.eidosgames.com/images/icons/icon14.gif
I mean who wouldn't want a free map pack?


Meanwhile, you're right that it is on the consumer's head for buying such a product. But that just gives us more right to complain about it ;)

I am a consumer such as yourself. I don't work for Eidos or Pyro. What's with this "you" and "us" stuff? I can't ease your pain, fix the bugs, give you extra maps or refund your money. From certain point of view, I share your disappointment. The only difference is that I didn't let my "consumer confidence" affect my better judgement.

Xcom
4th Nov 2003, 05:36
Originally posted by WheresTheBeef
Your comments that people from EIDOS that do visit the boards here are not the “right” people in the sense that they can’t effect change, or rather, don’t communicate with the powers that be, is an indication that EIDOS has a very weak structure in it’s line of communication, and thus, has no consideration for the voice it gave it’s consumers via this board.

Oops... did I say that? Heheh..
*looks left*
*looks right*
What does this have to do with communication structure AT ALL? Maybe they were simply assigned here for other reasons than constantly passing feedback to higher levels. Maybe this board's primary task is not to let you voice your opinions to Eidos, but rather voice your opinion to other users and simply discuss the game.
Anyhow, I didn't say they that they don't communicate. Maybe they do, I simply don't know. But even if they do, that doesn't guarantee that something will be done. Again, maybe it will, maybe it won't. If the whole purpose of your complaints is to make Eidos AWARE, and your complaint is shared by majority of people, then you needn't bother here because they know it without even seing this board.


As MH pointed out with FallOut2, this is quite true of MANY other games.

So what? I can name quite a few games (+ their repective message boards) where such pressure didn't do a thing.


If you’re stating that EIDOS does not work in the same manner of (what appears to be) the majority of other publishing companies by making sure the voice they gave their consumers is heard by the powers that be, I would most surely not want to purchase another product published by EIDOS. If all we are doing here is talking to other users, and NONE of these complaints are making it to those that can effect change, then EIDOS needs to make haste and restructure the lines of communication. This does not bode well for the future of EIDOS.

I am not aware how Eidos precisely operates, nor how other companies operate (or how it appears to YOU), so I couldn't have stated what you are implying that I've stated. Keep in mind that I don't work for Eidos, and everything that I say is my own opinion which doesn't necessarily reflect the truth. That is a disclaimer I should have put in my first post.
Who are these consumers you keep referring to? Do you have proof that you and your complaints represent the majority of thousands (or hundreds of thousands) of people who actually bought the game? Do you expect a company to act upon a complaint coming from a few consumers on its board?
Talking to other users on a message board is pretty much the whole purpose of a message board. It has nothing to do with communication structure within Eidos itself.
You, on the other hand, do need to restructure your line of communication. I have hard time replying to your posts. :D




Perhaps those EIDOS employees who do read the boards need to start passing along the concerns of the companies consumers. If they are to say that it would have no effect, no one would listen, this tells me all I need to know regarding this publisher.

*sigh* See above.


Since EIDOS consumers voices are blocked from going no further than our own monitors, there can be no consumer confidence in ANY of the products they publish.

And I thought that your "consumer confidece" was determined by the quality of a product, not how well your opinion gets across.



Regardless, I paid my money which entitles me to a degree of right in voicing my grievances here, which I will continue to do so until such time as I am either deleted, or heard by the powers that be.

Good luck. (no pun intended)
Btw, what do you want powers that be to tell you?


PS – Since I admin the boards for a very popular TV show

Which one?

ragsy
4th Nov 2003, 05:39
Originally posted by WheresTheBeef
Man I haven't played DOOM in so long. That was a great game! We used to have deathmatch lan parties that lasted all weekend long. Even made our own maps for killing fields.

hehe me too, although i never made my own maps but i remember those lan parties where the office air conditioning was turned off for us weekend gamers, the sweaty hands seem to add to the realism :D i can't wait for the next incarnation of Doom to hit the shelves....


Back to the topic, i reckon if a map pack is promised i'd probably buy the game now, as the hotkey/res thing while frustrating and disapointing can be worked around....

but even better than a map pack would be a map builder allowing custom missions

Xcom
4th Nov 2003, 05:40
Originally posted by ragsy
i hope i haven't steped over the line XCom

Traitor. :mad:

:)

ragsy
4th Nov 2003, 05:46
Originally posted by Xcom
Traitor. :mad:

:)


awwww :D at least i know you care :D

WheresTheBeef
4th Nov 2003, 07:23
Xcom – Of course I realize you don’t work for EIDOS, but you seem pretty unclear as to the purpose of these forums. You say they should be here to discuss the game, amongst users but then you say people come here complaining. Is that not a form of discussion? Voicing ones opinion? Are you suggesting the only thing we should say is “I love EIDOS” in a million different ways? Of course not!

Now, why do you think official forums are often referred to as “support forums”? I’ll tell you why.

Jumpin Jebus:
Eidos Tech Support Monkey
(415) 615-6220
abraswell@eidos.com

Now, why would they have support techs visiting the forums and advertising the fact that they are from tech support? Who do you think would be most interested in reporting back problems with the game? If problems (complaints) are never posted, there is no point in the tech support people being members of the forum. Why do you think they fix bugs? So that the game runs as advertised. My complaint is also that the game is not as advertised (24 maps).

“Only it's been my experience that most people come here only after they bought the game and usually if they have a problem of some sort. Truly sad.”
When would you expect someone to come to the forums? If the person buys the game, it’s from the manual that they often get a link to a support site, which also contains a link to the forums.

“Why exactly should Eidos be alerted in the first place? The situation with C3 is not as bad as you are presenting it.”
Why should they be alerted? Why do you have a bug reporting thread? Just for fun? And since when should a publisher not be interested in consumer feedback? They often depend on such feedback as it usually directly relates to sales. It's in their best interest to serve the customers needs and desires. The situation is as bad as I make it out. The worst possible situation is that the game came with ½ the maps advertised. It doesn’t get much worst than that.

As for responsibility, not everyone has the time to constantly surf through a specific gaming community hunting down the latest info (especially if they have signed up for a newsletter). The newsletter promised the “latest information on Commandos 3”. I’m not about to assume that is a lie.

As for your comments that sequels should be expected to be LESS than it’s predecessor, unlike movies, the majority of games often improve throughout a series. Please, don’t compare this to movies. Movies rarely advertise they will be 2 hours in length, only to find out when you are at the movie, it’s really only 15 minutes long (but you should have checked their forums first!).

The simple fact is; C3 was NOT delivered as advertised and whether people buy it on the day of release or not is insignificant. It was a lot less for the money than C2. C3 did NOT meet the expectations of the consumer (as these boards reflect) as advertised.

I mean, come on… if you bought a car that was advertised as loaded with features, having a back seat, and 280hp, only to find it was a 2 seater with 140hp (and look! No stereo or wipers!) for the same money, you wouldn’t take it back to the dealer and complain? And if you did and the dealer said “well, you should have checked our forums the day the car was delivered – it stated all this and this is partly your fault” would you be satisfied with that response? Not likely.

WheresTheBeef
4th Nov 2003, 07:41
“Who are these consumers you keep referring to? Do you have proof that you and your complaints represent the majority of thousands (or hundreds of thousands) of people who actually bought the game? Do you expect a company to act upon a complaint coming from a few consumers on its board?”
You said this was the official board. This is where people voice their opinions of the game and EIDOS knows that. They aren’t about to expect even the majority of customers to have knowledge of, or access to, the forums. This is their sounding board.

Look around you in the forums here and what do you see? Not a lot positive remarks on C3. That should give you the general “mood” of the consumer who do not have access or knowledge of the forums. That’s why they have polls for voting… they obviously can’t contact every voter and in this case, every customer, thus these boards act as a poll that reflects the mood of the consumers in general.


And what I want the "powers that be" to tell me is their intentions. Are they going to consider providing a free map pack and a patch to fix the bugs and hotkeys?
At least if they could inform me of their intentions, I would know whether to keep the game and await the updates, or stuff it on eBay and attempt to recoup some of my loses (since the game does not have much of a replay factor).

Mike_B
4th Nov 2003, 17:31
Originally posted by WheresTheBeef

Why should they be alerted? Why do you have a bug reporting thread? Just for fun?

The reason I've putted that up was to make sure that all the bugs would be in one thread rather than being spread over the forum. This makes it easier to forward the link to Pyro.

Twitch
4th Nov 2003, 17:34
Beef and others- Strange why they deleted all the comments by this jubus character in the forums. He had some sense and acknowledged some of the shortcomings. No doubt he crossed out of the Party's dictum and was sent to the Russian Front.

Have you all noticed how nearly all corporate entities no long want any dialogue with their customers- the people that made them their money? You get silly phone menus that lead you back to the beginning of the thing often and employees that you do actually converse with have this narrow field of responsibility and offer no alternative suggestions only corporate babble. They desire to be completely insulated from the unwashed masses and their trivial questions. The bank, the phone company, the mortgage company, insurance company, all government bureaucracies etc.

As in most anything the vast majority are silent about their complaints but they untimately 'vote' with their wallets. Most purchasers of C3 will never come to this board. They'll stick C3 on the shelf or sell it at their next yard sale and take the $$ lump for yet another product that did not perofrm as advertised or implied.

That is the key- implied. A piece of software should at least perform minimally like install and run without major flaws regardless of price or complexity of content. Whether it has less features or is fun is not a factor when it doesn't even run right. C3 does none of the above.

Consumers have become way too compliant and meek in expecting value for $$. The theme has always been 'buyer beware.' Why is that good?

C2 was a strong engine with lots of features to build on. Instead the threw everything out and came up with an ergonomically unsound title with stability issues to boot. There is a problem when a forum is filled with complaints and basic questions on installation about getting the game to even run the first time coupled with more bugs as you play. The C2 forums were about hints and tricks on how to complete the missions with very little on software problems, ever.

The problem with many companies today is the simple fact that they forgot ther roots. They forgot how to do it right, whatever the product or service offered.

Xcom
4th Nov 2003, 18:15
Originally posted by WheresTheBeef
Xcom – Of course I realize you don’t work for EIDOS, but you seem pretty unclear as to the purpose of these forums.

I am starting to seriously dislike you, Beef.
I've been on these forums for almost 4 years and you've been here a week or so. I may be unclear about many things, but I think I have pretty good idea what this forum is here for. I find your remark not only inaccurate, but also quite insulting. Regardless of what you may (or want to) think, THESE ARE NOT OFFICIAL TECH-SUPPORT forums. There are several official tech-support sites you can visit and send e-mails, there is a phone numbers that you can call. Presence of one tech-support guy here doesn't really make this a tech-support forum, the same way as sticking feathers up your butt doesn't make you a chicken. If you don't like it, you have my permission to leave and not buy any Eidos product ever again, regardless of how good it might be. Futhermore, your complaint/demand doesn't even qualify as a bug which tech-support might be interested in. Game crash is a bug. Missing saves is a bug. You want more missions. Only Pyro can decide whether they'll make an extra map pack. That is not a technical glitch.

And so far, you been given all the opportunity to voice your rather negative opinion, so:


Are you suggesting the only thing we should say is “I love EIDOS” in a million different ways?

is there any sense in asking this over and over again? :rolleyes:


The situation is as bad as I make it out.

No, not really. Bug threads can be found practically everywhere. Commandos 2 forum also had a bug thread. People always find bugs. So what?


Please, don’t compare this to movies.

And you, please, don't compare games to cars. You didn't pay $50000 for this game either.


That should give you the general “mood” of the consumer who do not have access or knowledge of the forums.

It shouldn't. As you suggest yourself: When would you expect someone to come to the forums? If the person buys the game, it’s from the manual that they often get a link to a support site, which also contains a link to the forums
This is sadly true for Commandos series. Most new folks who came here after release of C3, only came here because they have problem, seek help or want to rant. It is quite logical that if they have a problem, they'll vote "not pleased". Happy people rarely come here. Why would they? Unlike for example Star Wars related games, where people share common interests other than the game itself, Commandos has never been a game that attracts large happy crowds just for the fun of it. Tell me, would you have come here if you were perfectly happy with the game so you could vote "Yes, I am pleased"? Honestly now? Would MajorHealy be here if he liked the game? I seriously doubt that, so you see, the poll is slightly biased here and doesn't necessarily represent objective opionion of all customers, IMO.

And you haven't answered my question: what TV show forum do you admin?

Twitch
4th Nov 2003, 19:14
Bug threads can be found in other forums but not encompassing the scope and diversity of bugs of this title.

The reason anyone comes to any site's forum is to chat about ways to accomplish the missions- hints and tricks, where stuff is etc.

Whether one pays $50000 or $50 for a product its implied warranty is that it function in the first place regardless of depth of features. Is it implied that since it is software and not an auto you shouldn't expect it to function at its basic level?

Buy a $50 piece of business software- spreadsheets, database, money manager etc. It functions and has tons of features relative to the application.

Who cares what anyone thinks or says on a forum as long as they're not cursing or flaming someone?

Xcom
4th Nov 2003, 20:28
Originally posted by Twitch
Is it implied that since it is software and not an auto you shouldn't expect it to function at its basic level?

No, it is implied that a computer game and a car is not the same type of product and that comparison of one to the other seems a little bit far fetched. Technical glitch in a car can result in a life-threatening situation not only for the driver but other people as well, while technical glitch in a game most likely can't. (and NOTE, I said "game", not software in general). Manufacturing of cars differs significantly from production of games. And so on.

I agree the lower price of games doesn't indicate that its quality can be worse than expected, it does, however, indicate that the financial risk involved in purchasing a game is significantly lower than that of a car. Basically, what I am saying is that losing $50 (however also unfortunate but) is not the same as losing anywhere from $10000 and above.

My whole point in all this debate, is that since you know that such things may happen, at least you can do is do some research before you buy a game, and possibly spare yourself some grief and money . Of course, THIS IS NOT RIGHT and it is not how it should be, but it happens. And don't tell me that it only happens with Eidos products 'cause I've seen similar occurances (where some customers felt they were ripped off) with practically all publishers out there.

What I don't get is why my suggestion makes no sense to you at all?

Grey Mouser
4th Nov 2003, 20:42
Originally posted by David
i dont know anything free from eidos.


What about these forums? :D


Just to state briefly what Xcom already has: You are welcome to share your thoughts in a civil manner on any Eidos game here at the forums. That is what they are here for. And yes, our producers and developers are made aware (by ME) of what transpires here. Constructive criticism is good.

Bashing and complaining for the sake of seeing your own name 'in print' or for ego-gratification is a bit different, and no, they are not here for that.

It is a fine line, wouldn't you say Mr. Beef? And oh yeah...what was that TV show whose forums you admin? I'd love to check out your 'technique'!

WeinerMan
4th Nov 2003, 20:46
sigh, if only people would expend this much time and energy on matters that really counted. oh, like how many little kids in your city won't have a warm meal this evening or won’t get Christmas gifts this year. I can’t believe the angst created by some silly $50 toy…

Grey Mouser
4th Nov 2003, 20:53
Originally posted by WeinerMan
sigh, if only people would expend this much time and energy on matters that really counted. oh, like how many little kids in your city won't have a warm meal this evening or won’t get Christmas gifts this year. I can’t believe the angst created by some silly $50 toy…


No arguements there!

MajorHealy
4th Nov 2003, 21:34
Originally posted by Xcom
"Pyro had performed top-notch with this series until now. I wasn't even aware that the game had been released yet, and saw it at the store - voila, impulse buy. I would only do this for a product in which I had "consumer confidence" (as Beef put it) and was already aware of the title, and that list is _very_ short. "

Do you think if company X makes an excellent title, that you are somehow _guaranteed_ that the next title will be equally excellent, especially if this title is a sequel?


Absolutely not. I didn't infer that there was a guarantee anywhere. Just that it was a safe bet. And even safe bets can be lost.


Personally, I think that Commandos 2 was worse than its predecessor. It wasn't a bad game by all means: the graphics were good, it was fun.

I agree with you here. And Commandos 3 isn't a 100% bad game - it's just criminally short/has small maps, and is somewhat buggy. I think they were well on their way toward a good game with C3 ... the "cinematics" were great, especially the way they integrated so smoothly with the gameplay --- the interiors had a couple of small issues (I could "sometimes" see enemies through walls with "view enemies" hotkey, sometimes not), but were a decent leap forward from the C2 interiors --- there were far fewer soldiers lured by the cigarette pack, which removed it as a crutch --- etc.


Really? Not even raise some questions (and materialise a little light bulb above your head).. like.. "Wait a minute, if the interface is different and I don't like it, perhaps there will be other things in the full game which are also different, and there is a chance that I might not like them as well. So, I might just wait with this game." Hmmm...weird.

Not weird at all. I enjoyed Star Wars Jedi Knight I and II, but didn't care for the force power interface in II (which ended up being a necessary evil due to expanded features in the game). And while I didn't like the interface as much, it was still a much better game. Not liking one aspect of a game doesn't make it a bad game by any means.


You don't consider official forums a "normal channel"? No?

Actually no --- and this is something I'll definitely be doing in the future. Just scanning through the titles of each post would've scared me off here :)


In any case, at least IGN mentioned 12 levels almost immediately after US release.

Fantastic - but Commandos 2 had 10 levels (not counting the bonus levels). I don't remember what the first 2 Commandos titles had (mainly because they don't run on my machine anymore since I went to Win2k). Regardless, it's not the number of missions that concerns me here --- it's the size/depth of the missions. Not something I could have gleaned from the demo, and 2 of the 4 game reviews I saw presented these levels as "huge".

So basically, short of coming to the forums, I maintain that I had no easy way of finding out this shortcoming. And, again, it's nothing for which I expect a specific solution, just a point about which I reserve the right to complain.


Only it's been my experience that most people come here only after they bought the game and usually if they have a problem of some sort. Truly sad.

Irrefutably true. Few people will visit and post on a game forum with nothing but positives unless they're REALLY impressed. In the "normal" best situation, they stop by to get help when they're stuck at some point in the game.

Yeah it is sort of sad --- gotta be a human nature thing...


I can't imagine that they weren't alerted to just how seriously irate the customers were. For most development companies, this is one of the best (if not the only) places to get feedback so quickly. Plus, bad revews on your official site board is bad press that needs to be squashed by making things right with the customers.
Why exactly should Eidos be alerted in the first place? The situation with C3 is not as bad as you are presenting it. Look at this from where Eidos is standing. The game's got good reviews almost everywhere. Not excellent, not great but simply good. An average of 7.9 at Gamerankings (that is pretty much the average of all available online reviews at the time). On some of the sites there are also readers's score and maybe you'll be surprised to know that it doesn't differ that match from the official score. True, there are 30 people here who voted that they are not pleased with the game. Bah, big deal. You can't please everyone. Yeah, there are some bugs. As if it's the first time a game has bugs. So what? Make a patch, fix the bugs, all's good.

(I think you took the target out of context here --- when I said "I can't imagine they...", I meant Black Isle/Interplay, not Eidos)

Here's where you present a very good position. I posted a couple of reviews to C3 reviews in another thread here a couple of days ago, showing that the reviewers seemed to love it. From Eidos' perspective, there's not much of a problem here - nothing a patch won't fix.

However, I'm unhappy with the product, and I'm complaining. I believe I'm complaining in a way that's informative, not just trashing the game, and I don't believe my point of view is unreasonable.

Yet I also believe that little will come of these complaints beyond a patch, which is pretty much standard procedure, anyway. The best that I could hope for would be Beef's free map pack, the worst is that I get the complaints off my chest an onto the sympathetic "ears" of others on the forum.



"Meanwhile, you're right that it is on the consumer's head for buying such a product. But that just gives us more right to complain about it :)"
I am a consumer such as yourself. I don't work for Eidos or Pyro. What's with this "you" and "us" stuff?

"You" is referring to yourself when I say "you're right".

"Us" is simply referring to people that purchased the game.

I was not trying to be confrontational, nor to divide anyone into unfair groupings. That's why I kept it light with the smiley face :). Believe me, the last thing the world needs nowadays are more group identities.


I can't ease your pain, fix the bugs, give you extra maps or refund your money.

Whoa!

Sorry if this is what you got from my statements, but I'm not looking for you to do this --- as a matter of fact, I'm not holding my breath for Eidos/Pyro to do any of these things. Their obligation to me ended once the sale was final and the game installed/ran.

However, it is also within my rights to complain, at least in my country.

If Eidos bans me from the forums for complaining, that's also within their rights, barring me doing something asinine like hiring a lawyer and claiming my 1st amendment rights had been trampled upon - however, they are gracious enough to allow my criticisms to be heard in the form of posts that put their product in a negative light.

And perhaps such criticism would help the next venture from Pyro and/or Eidos. And it's definitely good to commiserate with others regarding the terrible, life-changng plight that has resulted from purchasing this game ;)


From certain point of view, I share your disappointment. The only difference is that I didn't let my "consumer confidence" affect my better judgement.

Hurray!

Grey Mouser
4th Nov 2003, 21:37
Originally posted by WheresTheBeef

And what I want the "powers that be" to tell me is their intentions. Are they going to consider providing a free map pack and a patch to fix the bugs and hotkeys?
At least if they could inform me of their intentions, I would know whether to keep the game and await the updates, or stuff it on eBay and attempt to recoup some of my loses (since the game does not have much of a replay factor).

I'd be happy to tell you if I knew. The only thing I know for sure is that yes, Pyro is working on a patch, and that I know what we have asked it to contain, but I can't say what it really will have until it is finished.

If you are truly worried, go eBay. If you want to stick it out, stick it out.

MajorHealy
4th Nov 2003, 21:44
Originally posted by WeinerMan
sigh, if only people would expend this much time and energy on matters that really counted. oh, like how many little kids in your city won't have a warm meal this evening or won’t get Christmas gifts this year. I can’t believe the angst created by some silly $50 toy…

Guilty as charged :)

It is silly, and I admit it's somewhat fun. I'm actually getting as much entertainment from the message boards as I did from the game itself. So maybe I am getting my $50 worth...

Inasfar as people complaining about the right things, I'd give that one up ... the proportional tax burden in America has risen to the highest point ever, innocent people are being killed over illegal drugs in droves, and, as you point out, people are starving and left wanting, all while Americans complain about ATM fees going up from $1.50 to $2 or obsess about David Letterman's baby and how on earth that poor millionaire will be able to cope with the stress.

So it seems I've migrated from part of the solution to part of the problem now ... ;)

Grey Mouser
4th Nov 2003, 21:48
Originally posted by MajorHealy

If Eidos bans me from the forums for complaining, that's also within their rights, barring me doing something asinine like hiring a lawyer and claiming my 1st amendment rights had been trampled upon - however, they are gracious enough to allow my criticisms to be heard in the form of posts that put their product in a negative light.

And perhaps such criticism would help the next venture from Pyro and/or Eidos. And it's definitely good to commiserate with others regarding the terrible, life-changng plight that has resulted from purchasing this game ;)



Hang around long enough and you might notice that nobody ever gets banned for complaining or for critiquing, only for being abusive or a jerk...and there is a difference. You, Sir, seem to have the Right Idea.

WheresTheBeef
4th Nov 2003, 22:05
Xcom,
“Xcom – Of course I realize you don’t work for EIDOS, but you seem pretty unclear as to the purpose of these forums.”
You seem to have seriously misinterpreted this statement. In no way was I referring to the purpose of these forums in an official capacity. I was referring to their purpose from a user standpoint (of which is blatantly obvious to EIDOS), and pointed out that it’s not hard for the user to assume these forums are to provide some technical support given the fact that there is a tech support person on the forums, and YOUR statements that “users come to the forums for help”. You have made numerous comments on what these forums are used for, and what one might gain from them, but never did make an official statement as to their official purpose. Hence, that leaves the user to draw his own conclusions based partly on your statements, and their own observations.

And yes, I would come to these forums to say how much I love the game if that were the case (as I’ve been a member of many gaming forums for that purpose – to discuss the game with like minded people). I would want to discuss (as I have in threads here already) mission strategies and to see what others might be doing to get enjoyment from the game. I already have posts here that prove this, and have also provided suggestions for both technical problems, and mission strategies. So your broad assumption that I (or others) only come here to complain or get help does not reflect the sum of the posts in this forum. I have also contributed to the “bug” thread and therefore, my complaints are not only based on false and misleading advertising.

I suppose I should have used a sarcasm warning. I figured if you can compare games to movies, the comparison to cars must be equally logical. The analogy was not the point. Let me try something of less value, but nonetheless, personally important.

Let’s say you’re waiting for a music CD (less than half the cost of C3) of your favorite artist to be released. You’ve heard the artist before and love their music. You even heard samples of the new CD on their website and it sounded great. They’ve advertised there will be 10 songs on the CD. Release date comes, you get the CD home and put it in your CD player (let’s assume of course that the song list is not printed on the CD cover). “What’s this? Only 4 songs? And the recording isn’t as good as the samples I heard!”. You return to the store only to be told “If you had gone to the artists forum the day it was released, you would have known this sir. This is partly your own fault. Sorry, we can’t help you.”. Replace this with any analogy you like but it still makes the same point. Did I make my point yet?

And I never implied my primary complaint was a technical glitch, I refer to false and misleading advertising.

WeinerMan
4th Nov 2003, 22:47
So it seems I've migrated from part of the solution to part of the problem now
the crux of the problem and a mainstay of today's youth...oh well, damn Eidos screwed us so who gives a rats...fight on ye rebels with no cause!!

Xcom
4th Nov 2003, 23:08
Beef,
I don't see how one can misinterpret a statement such as "you are wrong" or "you've been misinformed". But alright, I accept your interprentation but kindly request that you use more accurate phrasing in the future in order to avoid futher misunderstanding. ;)

FYI, the little description under this forum's title clearly says: "General discussion for the newly released Commandos 3 from Pyro Studios". The link on the main Eidos website, says: "Go {forum link} to talk about the games." In my opinion, this does not indicate that the forum's purpose is providing tech support. True, I haven't checked with Eidos' president, shareholders or even marketing department about what really is the official purpose of these forums, but given my spent time here - "talking about the game" is pretty much it. Of course, some (tech)support/help is being offered to people who come here (from either Eidos' employees or members themselves), but it is not something we must do, nor does it define the official purpose of this forum, IMO.


I suppose I should have used a sarcasm warning. I figured if you can compare games to movies, the comparison to cars must be equally logical.

Never mind. I saw some other comparisons to cars in other threads (not by you) and it didn't feel right. Btw, the TV show you were working for.. what was that again? :D


And I never implied my primary complaint was a technical glitch, I refer to false and misleading advertising.

The point is that you don't have to provide examples and comparisons to me because I've never implied that I don't understand your point of view or that I think that your complaint is not legit. I may have questioned (the effectiveness of) your "methods", but I didn't question your actual complaint. In fact, I was simpathetic to your effort/situation. I simply tried to point out that, in my opinion, given the state of gamebiz nowadays, a customer should always be cautious for his/her own good. That is all and that remains my personal, subjective opinion.

WheresTheBeef
5th Nov 2003, 00:06
Grey Mouser,
If you consider my approach as coming close to the line of bashing, perhaps your personal threshold is too low. If you consider this thread only, at least consider what elicited much of the discussion (see below). Some of my comments may be sarcastic in nature, but most are meant to be jovial (notwithstanding some of the conversation with Xcom) and some are to express how ridiculous the item is to which I may be referring (i.e. “Blows it’s predecessor away!” – Exactly what part does it “blow away”? etc.). Is it perhaps a "fine line" because I disagree with a moderators statements? Ones that directly led me to believe consumer concerns were unimportant to EIDOS? (no sarcasm intended)

Bashing are the posts that have used terms such as “C3 sucks” and have used foul language. Take note that I responded that the game did not suck, but had it’s share of shortcomings. I also commented that the language would not exactly help their case.

I suggest you read some of my other posts outside of this thread to see that I have also provided positive input to the forums.

It should be clear my argument here in this thread is with Xcom’s statements and conjecture (and a rather ridiculous expectation IMO) pertaining to my responsibility as a consumer that I should have come here (to these forums) the day the game was released to find out the game had only half the missions promised. He also states the situation is not as bad as some make it out to be and (IMO) attempts to invalidate my (and others) complaint. That may be his personal opinion, but most may consider a game with half the advertised missions missing, yet at the same cost, as a valid complaint. I am simply trying to debate these points.


Originally posted by Grey Mouser
And yes, our producers and developers are made aware (by ME) of what transpires here.

Had Xcom been privy to this in his official capacity, and had stated it to begin with, there would have been no concern on my part, nor discussion pertaining to it.

I have created two threads:

This one out of shear frustration after being shocked the game was over. I voiced my grievance (which many seem to agree with) and used sarcasm as a vehicle to equate the ridiculousness of reference to a particular entity. I never made specific reference to either EIDOS or Pyro in my original post. The only time that came up was when Xcom implied the “right” people would never hear the complain, nor was the complaint deserving of being heard. One would assume he would be privy to this information having been here 4 years. However, you statement indicates otherwise. Perhaps this indicates there is, to some degree, a communication problem in the hierarchy after all. (again, no sarcasm intended)

The other thread was a poll to see if others agreed the cost of this game ought to be justified with the number of missions promised. I apologize if you did not see the jovial sarcastic nature in the poll elements.

Creating one thread to express my grievances, and another to seek support for a map pack should hardly be considered “bashing”. If you want to consider my responses to Xcom’s statements regarding “the powers that be” and “should read the forums the day of product release” as bashing, that is of course, your prerogative. However, many of those posts would not have existed if he had been privy to the information you posted, and had he not lead me to believe the opposite were true, or without some elicitation. I actually had nothing more to add on this topic until his (IMO) rather condescending statements elicited a response. That said, it was nothing personal as I find him quite intelligent and with a pleasant demeanor. :)

And to answer your question: If I was going to deprive myself of all anonymity by saying what network I work for, and the boards that I admin (which is only a portion of my job), I would have done so in my initial statement. Giving you the name of the show, and thus the forums, would also give you my full name, work address, and phone number (since contact information for the forum hosts is not difficult to discern) . I wouldn’t have signed up here with a username had I wanted to share that information with an entire forum.

WheresTheBeef
5th Nov 2003, 00:20
Xcom:
“Why exactly should Eidos be alerted in the first place? The situation with C3 is not as bad as you are presenting it.”
Sorry, but I took this as you invalidating my complaint. That it was not worth reporting. I got the impression it was valid and worth reporting when I found I was not alone in my complaint. Thus the debate on that began. Sorry for the misunderstanding. :)

WheresTheBeef
5th Nov 2003, 00:26
... double post

Jumpin_Jebus
5th Nov 2003, 00:28
Hey folks-

Just so everyone knows I have not been "sent to the russian front" as one forum lurker pointed out. Just to lay your questions and concerns to rest...the reason I deleted the "Don't Blame Eidos" thread, was simple. It was quite clear to me that it was quickly becoming an off topic flame war of the highest degree. As my boss Mr. Mouser has stated numerous times...healthy critiquing and comments/complaints are welcome. But when it turns to "the commando gods at Pyro have been shunned and ousted by the evil Eidos demons" I have to step in. I mean come on folks....get real....



To answer another question...yes I am a real Eidos Support agent. And contrary to popular belief, I do actually care how our products are presented to the public. When a game is released that doesn't quite make par, I get upset. Simply because I know that I am the one who has to deal with most of the direct flak from the public. As Grey Mouser has said...Pyro is working on a patch...and YES it will be released about an hour after it is finished.

YES we understand the game has problems. YES we understand it is a bit dissapointing. YES we understand your frustration. But in the end....did you have fun playing it? I sure as hell did. Yes I wish it was bigger, longer, more challenging..but in the end...hey, that is what Pyro delivered. And in the hopes of not inadvertantly starting another flame war, it is a sad but true fact of the entertainment industry as a WHOLE that satisfaction is simply not guaranteed. How can you warrant that little Johnny will enjoy this game at all? It's simple, until scientists invent ways for companies to read peoples minds, you can't guarantee it. You think a movie theater will give you your $8.00 back if you didn't like the movie you just saw? They'd laugh you right out of the place.

Anyways...thats my 14 cents

Happy Gaming

Grey Mouser
5th Nov 2003, 00:42
Originally posted by WheresTheBeef
Grey Mouser,
If you consider my approach as coming close to the line of bashing, perhaps your personal threshold is too low.

If you consider my approach to be coming close to 'being threatening' or whatever (notice how you are still a member, and dare I say, almost encouraged to vent), perhaps it is _your_ threshold that is 'too low'. ;)

Nonetheless, please remember that our Terms Of Use apply to All Members, including you.

WheresTheBeef
5th Nov 2003, 00:43
Jumpin Jebus,
The impression I got that the information would not be passed on was from Xcom’s remarks about “Why should it be…etc etc etc”. Assuming he represents EIDOS in some capacity, one would assume that this may be the attitude of the company itself.

Please let me make it clear that my complaint is not that I should be guaranteed to be satisfied with a product, or triple my money back. It has to do with the fact that 24 maps were advertised but not delivered. My other, less important complaints pertain to game play features I was disappointed to see removed, and requested they be included in a patch. It was that simple.

All the other discussion was born out of comments that I now see were not representative of EIDOS, thus reducing their overall importance (since such comments do not represent the official position of EIDOS as I had thought), and were not meant as seriously as taken. This type of discussion was due to the fact that I felt I was being told (indirectly) by EIDOS (through Xcom) that the complaints were not valid (“as bad as I make it out to be”), nor would or should they be passed on to the powers that be, at that I as a consumer am partly at fault for I should have known to come to the forums to see if there was an announcement that 12 maps would be missing. This is what I took issue with and how I perceived it at the time. I can now see that much of this was not the case.

ragsy
5th Nov 2003, 00:46
Glad to hear it Jumpin_Jebus

Was there any official response as to why the number of missions was halved from the original quoted 24?

This was perhaps the greatest disspointment for me

Do you know whether this is being or is likely to be addressed in the the future

WheresTheBeef
5th Nov 2003, 00:46
sorry, hit the quote button again instead of the edit button :o

WheresTheBeef
5th Nov 2003, 00:50
Grey Mouser;
All I really want to know is... aside from a patch... has EIDOS requested (or plan to request) some form of a free map pack to Pyro since they did advertise there would be 24?

Jumpin_Jebus
5th Nov 2003, 00:53
Perhaps you missread my post. The part where I said "YES we understand there are problems. YES we understand your frustration". I wasn't just saying that to blow sunshine up your arse. I actually meant it. It ticks me off when something like this happens to one of our products. I personally have been in your position many times regarding games, movies, music, etc...I know its a crappy deal, and I know the product delivered was not the product "promised" (term used loosly) by Pyro and Eidos. All I'm saying, is you do indeed have a VALID complaint, but until Pyro finishes the patch they are working on, I can't say one way or the other what will be fixed and what will remain the same.


So please hear me people when I say we hear your complaints, and are doing what we can in our VERY limited power to make it right. Lest you all forget...tech support agents are the red headed step children of the gaming industry.

and on that note...I'm gonna go play LOK: Defiance now....hehe

Happy Gaming

Xcom
5th Nov 2003, 00:55
Originally posted by WheresTheBeef
Sorry, but I took this as you invalidating my complaint. That it was not worth reporting. I got the impression it was valid and worth reporting when I found I was not alone in my complaint. Thus the debate on that began. Sorry for the misunderstanding. :)

An example (hypothesis if you wish) of how Eidos might look on things. Not my personal opinion.

As for my general "compentence"....

Despite my status, that, indeed, has some official capacity (in regard to the forums), I am not being informed why things being done within Eidos the way they are done. There is no problem in communication between Eidos and community moderators (me) regarding their business affairs, there is simply NO such communication at all. Nor do I require such communication. What was said by me remains my own opinion which is somewhat based on observation. And yes, I can be wrong. :rolleyes: I was under the impression that I made this clear to you in my 2nd or 3rd post here and you also confimed that you understand that I don't work for Eidos. In fact, my whole line of conducting this conversation (counting from the very 1st post I made in this thread) would have been kind of inapporiate for an Eidos' employee and should have at least given you some indication that I was not speaking "officially", on behalf of Eidos Interactive.
So please, don't tell me you typed so much text just because I misinformed you about my status and you were thinking that humble me is the voice of EIDOS. That doesn't sound very convincing and frankly, doesn't give you much credibility either. ;)

Jumpin_Jebus
5th Nov 2003, 01:01
To answer your question Ragsy....I honestly don't know. Information regarding patches and software updates are usually released by our UK office before we are even informed of their completion. :mad: NO I'm not kidding. All I can say is keep checking our support page and the forums, as the info will be there first. You can however check our UK site as well (www.Eidos.co.uk) as they might have some other info. Thanks for your interest in the game.

ragsy
5th Nov 2003, 01:25
Thanks for answering Jumpin_Jebus

I'll keep lurking the corridors of these forums and the Eidos / Pyro sites ever hopeful

In terms of your communication problems, :D Hopefully the powers that be will stop relying on carrier pigeons and maybe install one of those fancy new fangled telegraph systems between you guys and the UK.. :D

WheresTheBeef
5th Nov 2003, 02:16
Xcom:
Perhaps you should reread my posts. They refer to your very first post which was anything but crystal clear regarding your representation of EIDOS, where you basically implied the consumer is responsible to visit the forums the day of product release and they shouldn’t come here complaining blah blah blah. Everything AFTER that was related to my first impression and “how would you feel if?”. However, no analogy was acceptable by you, to make this point clear.

I just reiterated that impression for Grey Mouser. Unfortunately, you took it as present tense.

I never brought your compentence into question, it was your logic (and at one point, your representation) I questioned. Sorry you took it that way. I was simply trying to point out that it was your ORIGINAL statements, and my belief AT THE TIME that you represented EIDOS, that not only indicated to me a poor communication structure, but a poor attitude (in that I am referring to the “don’t come here complaining, you should have read the forum“ remarks) by a company (let me reiterate; I say company because at THAT TIME of your first post, I assumed you represented the company).

“As to "where to complain", that is a good question.”
“I didn't say they that they don't communicate. Maybe they do, I simply don't know”
“…you are all complaining to yourself”
I’m surprised none of this seems confusing to you or would give you the impression there is a communication problem. If you, as a moderator of the forums, were not made privy to the fact that information in the forum was being read by admin, and being passed up the chain to the “right” people, there is a communication problem. Hence my earlier question regarding the BUG thread: “If no one is reading it, what’s the point?”

If you make statements that tend to be confusing, it generally elicits a lot of questions and speculation. Hence, ALL that text after the fact.

I hope this clarifies much of my responses for you. Perhaps it can now be dropped.

Twitch
5th Nov 2003, 19:36
Hey Beef the game is almost likeable. We all wanted to like it. It isn't even that many its predecessor's features were AWOL. My self and many, many folks have serious problems from the point of install to nasty flaws in-game that were not present in earlier incarnations. We expected the decent track record by the entities involved to continue. It is software broken down to hex addresses people, just like any program. We expect Word Perfect 10.0 to at least install and function after having WP 4.0- 9.0 and not have flaws, user interface issues or crashes and to have innovative features. How many people loathed Windows and were vocal till Bill and Co, finally got it stable? In this case it was right by C2's time and it went backwards.

I've been constructive in that I took the time to analyze the title's shortcomings from my years of reviewing entertainment software along with the bugs noted in that thread. Reviewers have this thing for feeling beholding to the company for the free copy of the title and their past associations. If they give a title a mediocre or bad review they are afraid they will not get the next scoop. This generally makes them more forgiving. From when my game was running I assisted others in proceedural objectives.

Like Beef, I don't relish getting a ton of hoop-la and receiving something poor. Yeah where's the beef? Us old guys have been sold bills of goods before but with experience we have learned. I was sold a bill of goods in Vietnam. The reality of being there in country was entirely different. I don't play that 'yes sir' stuff anymore. C3 is simply that. Not only did it not deliver it had operational flaws.

It is beyond me why anyone can say it is great if they've ever experienced previous Commando titles and be oblivious to the flaws in the code writing. To say they don't want to hear complaints is pure head in the sand. "Quit saying C3 sucks, it doesn't," isn't going to make the problems go away. And neither is restating the problems and shortcomings by guys like Beef or me or the myriad others, true enough.

New people show up here daily with complaints and problems far more than C2 had. There is no denying that. I've helped those asking how to accomplish tasks in C3 I mastered before my game quit entirely. I and other have put down our thoughts constructively as to how the game could be improved play-wise. What is unique here is the ridiculous attempt to put people down when they agree with another person. This is unprecidented in similar fan forums unless folks are flaming others personally.

To those who are thin skinned about others' complaints perhaps they should avert their eyes when coming upon a negative comment about C3 and only read the happy comments. What compells them to go ballistic and post negatively to the new guy who says he doen't like something in C3 even if it was repeated in another thread?

I've reviewed titles that were poor in game play, graphics and whatnot or had operational flaws causing freezes or crashes. But never all in one title to this degree. This title is poor in quality, content and playability for the price. We can all acknowledge that can't we? I'm certain we all desire that it be rectified ASAP. The gripe most have if you look through the posts is a feeling of betrayal and being conned by those that released a game that was not ready to be released even in shortened version and want to know if the situation is being addressed.

Most forums have a section for flaming things. Things that bug people; many not even game related. Why not create a section for that so no one will have to read Beef's or anyone's comments. The remainder of the threads can be for "how do I accomplish this or that?," reserved for tactical assistance.

WeinerMan
5th Nov 2003, 20:58
To those who are thin skinned about others' complaints perhaps they should avert their eyes
settle down twitch before your dentures fall out. i won’t believe you if you tell me you aren’t referring to me here and you keep bringing this up as though those without all the hot air you and beef have are somehow unqualified to give our reaction. for all the verbiage you and a few others have been spewing it almost seems you’re ready to do bodily harm to get your way. Christ, your not fighting a cause here, you’re complaining about a toy. i am stupefied to the point of laughter as to why this friggin’ game being right to your thinking is so damn important. perhaps it’s as simple as that’s the way the people who created it wanted it to be. the waffen SS were not here to make you buy it. i played the demo, i knew it was based on production code, i realized the game was frozen at 800x600, i knew what I was getting, i made the decision to buy the game. to scream foul after being given freedom of choice is ludicrous. but to show you there are no hard feelings I’d like to help in your rehabilitation. here’s $50, buy another game :D

Twitch
5th Nov 2003, 21:54
If and when your testicles finally drop and you get some life experience you'll realize that the world id full of hucksters who want to give you as little as possible and take as much as they can from you whether its at work or through cheezy products and you have to speak up when you get hosed. Consumer protection is a pretty intense area in the US now. It's almost never is the $$ it's the idea that folks will get away with as much as they can if no one speaks up. Hitler and the "Jewish problem"- need I say more?

I could care less about screen resoultion. I've tested late betas 2 weeks before release date where the many problems were totally solved by replication time. I've run pre-betas and working title CDRs cobbled up for the media and took them for what they were. So there's no knowing that something is going to be good or bad or be full of bugs in these pre-production CDRs or demos.
To say everyone knew what they were getting by looking at screen shots and demos is ludicrious. Often titles are quite good when betas were not good. I've never seen a junky beta that made me say "Yeah I'll by this thing even it is poor."

If you bought the game feeling it would probably be mediocre one must ask why. Most people can't believe that production was so low grade owing to past quality benchmarks set by the same folks. Call it a toy if you want but it is still a software work like any business program or other app and is created in the same way. Obvious lack of pride in workmanship and the feeling "good enough" just doesn't cut it no matter what you are producing.

Sure its only a game and it's not a lot of money but think of how many $50 the companies made when added up. It's not like the thing runs well even if it is short or whatever but it's full of bugs that no one can imagine weren't seen before they gave the go ahead to go to gold. That's what is ticks people off too. Like they knowingly released an imperfect product. Nudge nudge wink wink. ;) Cha-ching!!

Guys like me and Beef love the dialogue for the sake of it. After all a 'forum' is defined as a meeting, debate, discussion or round-table and expressing our views are just that. I came here after having problems and seeing flaws and found almost everyone else was too. I planned to share hints and tips of gameplay as folks did on the C2 forum and did to the limited extent that it was even a factor of topics.

And yeah I'd like to have my money back. So let me know when they have a recall/refund program. Next I'll tell you pitfalls of fooling around with bar girls in Saigon, when you're on R & R, sonny. You're a good kid no matter what anyone says. :D

Xcom
5th Nov 2003, 22:23
Originally posted by Twitch
If you bought the game feeling it would probably be mediocre one must ask why.

Maybe because he is wealthy and good-looking. :D

Xcom
5th Nov 2003, 22:26
Originally posted by WheresTheBeef
They refer to your very first post which was anything but crystal clear regarding your representation of EIDOS

Mayhaps. Yet, when I did inform you about my representation, you proceeded to reply: "Of course, I realize you don't work for Eidos".

You didn't say: "Really???" or "Oh how strange!" or "Oh, but I thought you do". At least nothing that would have indicated some sort of surprise. Futhermore, the phrase "Of course" even suggests that you may have been aware of this all along.

WheresTheBeef
5th Nov 2003, 23:10
WeinerMan, Did you ever consider that perhaps some people are fed up with this type of software dumping on the market? You say $50 is nothing to complain about. Is it perhaps only significant if it's $80 or $100? Where would you like consumers to set the price barrier of what is acceptable and what is not?

Did you consider that $50 is more to one person than another? More importantly, $50 here, and $50 there adds up to $200+ worth of coaster very quickly.

Please consider the fact that it has to start somewhere, and that some people have had enough of falsely advertised software dumped in their laps for double the price of its value (regardless if it's $50 or $1000).

Grey Mouser
6th Nov 2003, 00:04
Originally posted by Twitch

Most forums have a section for flaming things. Things that bug people; many not even game related. Why not create a section for that so no one will have to read Beef's or anyone's comments. The remainder of the threads can be for "how do I accomplish this or that?," reserved for tactical assistance.

Personally I agree. It is specifically not allowed under my current marching instructions is why. This too has been something I have pushed for, and the result was me being quite thoroughly chastised for wasting the time of the Eidos Marketing Department, under whose jurisdiction the Forums are supposedly under. Funny how not a single one of them actually looks at the forums though, unless I make them.

WheresTheBeef
6th Nov 2003, 01:07
Grey Mouser,
So is there any discussion inside EIDOS regarding a free mission pack? If so, is there any intent to ask Pyro to provide one?

My impression from what I've read in these forums, it would appear to be a priority and of most concern to the consumer that 12 missions were missing. I suspect most would choose that above all else (unless you're one of the ones who can't get the game to run at all).

WeinerMan
6th Nov 2003, 01:29
the world is full of hucksters
this practice began back when man exchanged two seashells for three shiny rocks so i doubt your crusade against evil eidos regarding the quality of a toy will get you voted most influential by Forbes. anyway, you certainly have every right to repeatedly voice your discontent and, as you say, you seem to enjoy it. i’m only commenting on the futility of it all, not about speaking out against injustice, just wasting your effort here.

next thing my friend. i know you’re a vet and I respect you for that but it doesn’t make you forum oracle. don’t patronize me with this life experience crap and don’t call me sonny again…thanks and I’m sure we can get along.


and AllBeefPatty - sharpen your consumer skills. there's lots of crap on the market. always has been, always will be. that's free trade and it makes effective use of the saying "There's a sucker born every minute". no one made you buy this game. it may be unfortunate it's not what you expected but it's also your decision whether to buy it or not. if you bought crap you have no one to blame but yourself...

ragsy
6th Nov 2003, 02:57
Originally posted by WeinerMan
if you bought crap you have no one to blame but yourself...

Thats bull....

considering the crap was advertised as being anything but crap

Why do some of you people defend this game like you work for Eidos or Pyro... especially since they (the actual employees) are also admitting the product isn't up to the standard they would like to deliver.

I am a long time fan of this series and i am yet to buy C3, the only experience i have in C3 is the three incarnations of the Demo, and so far i fail to see a good reason to spend the cash on the supposedly full game...

Those reasons are stated in my previous posts, there is nothing futile about complaining unless you are a broken record.

I will keep checking sites to see if the situation improves and if so I'll buy it, and that wont happen until these complaints are addressed to my satisfaction...

ragsy
6th Nov 2003, 03:03
Wheres the Beef did you see this post?


Originally posted by Jumpin_Jebus
To answer your question Ragsy....I honestly don't know. Information regarding patches and software updates are usually released by our UK office before we are even informed of their completion. :mad: NO I'm not kidding. All I can say is keep checking our support page and the forums, as the info will be there first. You can however check our UK site as well (www.Eidos.co.uk) as they might have some other info. Thanks for your interest in the game.


One of the most honest respones i've ever seen from Eidos (even though it doesn't tell us much.. :D

I am fairly sure that Pyro would be well aware of the consumer discontent, wheter they will address it, i guess we'll have to wait and see.

They were fairly quick making a patch for C2, but it didn't include anything other than bug fixes, what we know is that they are addressing those issues....

If only someone knew a source inside Pyro...then we could find out whether your copy of C3 is going on Ebay or not :D

Twitch
6th Nov 2003, 03:42
weiner- I meant it as a joke since you were joking about my non-existent dentures. Ya know how us old folks like to carry on- again joking, get it? My example was that most of us dumb kids were sold a bill of goods about Vietnam- henceforth I dislike to the extreme any rhetoric about how great some service or product is when it obviously is not. I don't like attempts to brainwash me at any level, that's all.

mouser- yeah thanks man for the effort. Lots of boards have steam vents for ballistic material from "I hate school!" to "this danged computer!"

Beef- and this is for Beef- no one else needs to comment so stop reading now....

I hear ya. Often a kid has a computer that he is having problems with and probably just some RAM would help things. $30 to many of is nothing but to a 16 year old it is. You are right it is relative to the person and situation.

As I said regardless of price, goods and services that do not deliver are shameful. In software as a whole it has been an ongoung theme. Unfortunately entertainment software has led the way. As I said other apps are ggod value for the $$ and install and work with new features over the last version. Got Office XP for about $65 and it installed very rapidly with no glitches and has added features from Office 2000 with Microsift Front Page included free!

As consumers we are inundated with commercial messages in print and audio-visual media. Years ago there were no consumer watchdog groups. Obviously ebough people said "I'm mad as hell and I'm not gonna take it any more." If you bought a crummy car the dealer could shine you and complaints on. Now there are lemon laws for cars and many other products are covered as well. It certainly isn't because those that got stiffed sat back and said "oh well."

Why did Napster explode in popularity? Because people got tired of paying $19 for a CD that had 1 or 2 good cuts and 50 minutes of junk. I worked in the CD DVD replicating industry and can tell you that it costs about 50 cents to replicate the CDs packaged in a jewel box with shrink wrap. Before that I worked in the printing indusrty making CD inserts- booklets and tray card and you 1000 4 page folders and tray cards for like $300. It is less as the quantity rises. So who is making the money? Much more than half the time it's not the artist. The record companies that's who. Give 'em less and charge mrer was their ideal and they got ticked since someone thought of something they should have done to control sales of the individual cuts. Why didn't they have web sites 1st?

It may be new to some folks that they don't get what they expect when they dole out their greenbacks but, like you, I am tired of it. How many times do great graphics on a box make an impulse buy of a game? Plenty. That's why publishers keep their prices at no more that $50 so Kmart and Walmart and others will stock them. $50 is their limit. That's where casual buyers move the product from mass merchandisers. So even when a producere wants to create a really quality piece he can't price it at what it needs to make any margin. Sick isn't it? So we get what we get due to mass merchandisers' price ceilings on entertainment software. Of course they were selling all the CDs they could when they were $19 a year ago but not games at $89. Thank God for places like Office Depot where you can get office apps. If they had the same philosophy all they'd stock would be equivilents of 10 year old word processing software.

And here we are with the theory that is is OK to project a budget containing a strict amount of dollars, manhours and calendar time and scoot the product out the door whether it is faulty or not. Time's up. We're done. Next project.

As you mentioned a car is a good example. It matters not about the $$ amount relative to the product. The example is sound since it deals with quality, craftsmanship, and work ethic and the end result of honest or dishonest marketing. This ideal transcends all goods and services produced and basic Econ 101 will tell you that. But why does everything have to be "sell the sizzle not the steak?" Where's the beef?

And the whole C3 thing is simply a representation of what happens when someone struts out a pig and calls it a racehorse. I for one could care less about free missions for a game that doesn't even run minimally it's so buggy, on a "recommended system" as mine is, reagrdless of the other poor features of the title. It is a true shame that software has not kept up with hardware in quality and workmanship. We are the losers but much more those that produce shoddy goods of any type are the real losers in the scheme of things peering at the world with a morally bankrupt gaze. Getting away with what the law allows doesn't make it right.

I like the way you think and express yourself. Be careful out there.

MajorHealy
6th Nov 2003, 04:13
Why do some of you people defend this game like you work for Eidos or Pyro... especially since they (the actual employees) are also admitting the product isn't up to the standard they would like to deliver.

I think they get tired of opening a frequently-visited forum and seeing the same complaints over and over again. I'm sure the moderators are quite sick of it. But that's why complaining gets results so often. Whether it yields up anything here, of course, remains to be seen.

As I'm one of the people sorely dissatisfied with the game, I personally don't mind the complaints. I want Pyro/Eidos to know we're unhappy. And they may fully realize this by now (again, I'm sure the moderators do), but because the internet's such a faceless forum, I don't see that first-hand, so the complaints seem ineffective. So, from a logical perspective, I see that the complaining's probably gone just about as far as it may go on a forum, but from a visceral perspective, I'm glad we keep posting the complaints :).

The only thing getting under my skin in the forums is when the criticizers are told that they should have known the game was bad based on demos, reviews, press releases, and this forum. Maybe I'm not as perceptive as they are ... the demo would have only shown me that the game had a poor interface, which I've already mentioned is not a deal-breaker for me. The reviews told us the game was great, and that it included "huge maps" - it had its downsides, but they were minimal compared to the upsides. And most of us simply don't read a lot of game press releases or frequent forums for games we don't own, although this is obviously the path to take for future games.

The most major gripes are all related to things no one has claimed to realize until purchasing the game (or hearing complaints from someone else who's purchased it). It crashes. The maps are small. The game is short. It lacks testing/QA.

And most of the once-fans who purchased it are miffed about not only these things, but also by the death of the beloved Commandos franchise that we used to know.

Anyway, I'd like to extend a seincere, albeit somewhat weak, apology to the moderators here for the past, present and future complaining that'll be taking place on the forums. After all, they're taking the brunt of the blows for a game they didn't develop. I think we all wish the responsible parties were the ones forced to read these complaints.

Oh, and I really liked WeinerMan's comment that we're taking this a bit too seriously (I'm not being sarcastic here, I really thought it was well-placed). We are. And it is "only $50". But maybe since we couldn't get $50 worth of entertainment out of the game itself, we're getting our entertainment flogging the game in a public forum...

Anyway, WeinerMan, I'm surprised you're keeping track here --- aren't there unfortunate people in your town that need a hot meal? They're not getting fed while you're chewing the fat with the rest of us heathens!

Sorry, I simply couldn't resist that :). So this year I'm putting in an extra $50 this year for our county's Christmas donations just for making that cheap shot.

Xcom
6th Nov 2003, 05:24
Originally posted by Twitch
Beef- and this is for Beef- no one else needs to comment so stop reading now....

PM still works.

Twitch
6th Nov 2003, 16:14
Yeah Major those that want to help people and not sensationalize things could donate to Heifer International like my wife and I do. They are an international organization so those here from around the globe won't feel left out contributing to US charities. What they do is purchase livestock for people in countries around the world so they can contribute to their owners' standard of living by producing all the things these animals do- eggs, milk, cheese, meat etc. www.heifer.org $50 would go a long way there.

The complaints- yeah no one seems truly certain that the bug thread or the constructive points of contention are, in fact, being perused by Eidos quality control hazmat team. Yeah from the purley visceral POV it's kinda fun just read and comment to the new folks that come here with surprised comments of how lousy and buggy the game is. Simply because some of us write responses in agreement with them it seems tiresome to others.

Like you I never heard anything negative about the game in all the hype and hoop-la that was orchestrated by the interested parties which built to a crescendo before release. And believe me, I can tell you from years of personal experience of reviewing games that many, many titles just 2 weeks before release are changed dramatically from final beta form.

I can remember the 1st Microsoft Combat Flight Sim a few years ago. Several of the planes flew poorly and keys weren't all working. If I had to base my decision to say buy or don't buy on that I'd have said it don't buy. The gold copy had the keys mapped out and proper flight characteristics. Demos and pre betas are not valid basis for finished product. I used to tell my publisher I almost wished they wouldn't give media these cobbled up discs as they do not ever represent the final product. They're pretty much all wobbly. So right you are there was no stink before finding the dead body.

Healy you have no need to apologize. I never saw you flaming a moderator. And do NOT apologize for nameless others that may complain in the future. You're being conditioned by outside influences to act like a wus. It's the American way to stand up and say what you think. In our history much has been changed for the better by that strong willed philosophy. (folks in other countries- do not take this negatively) If it wasn't for those repetitive civil rights scaliwags black people would still be unable to vote!

A bunch of kids are going to get this turkey for Christmas and perpetuate the shock and disappointments into next year as complaints continue without our influence.

And the theory that Eidos is not reaponsible for Pyros' cation is pure fantasy. As a writer/contributing editor of over 200 articles and 3 books my publishers have legally always been responsible for any of my content they publish as they all are in the real world.

You're alright Major. Semper Fi!

MajorHealy
6th Nov 2003, 17:55
Originally posted by Twitch
Healy you have no need to apologize. I never saw you flaming a moderator.

The moderators are likely avid game fans that took the job/hobby of moderator because they enjoy spending their time on the forums chatting about the games, and probably get sick to death of the constant complaining that they have no choice, as moderators, but to read. Not that that was never part of the job or anything, but I still feel for 'em :).

But you're right in that I don't need to apologize --- how about changing:

"I'd like to extend a seincere, albeit somewhat weak, apology "

to:

"I'd like to extend my sympathies "

Yeah, that makes more sense.


And the theory that Eidos is not reaponsible for Pyros' cation is pure fantasy.

In my mind, I imagine that Pyro/Eidos agreed on a release date of October 2003. Then Pyro got behind, and Eidos wouldn't give an extension. The result was C3.

That's often the way these things happen, although only those more closely involved with this particular title could say this was the case here. Who knows - maybe it was all on Pyro's side, but, as you say, Eidos is still publishing it.

I read somewhere that when LucasArts goes through testing/QA on a game, they have the "2 week bug-free window" - basically, each title needs to go through 2 weeks of testing with absolutely no bugs (or maybe super-minor bugs) before a game is released. If 13 days go by without a bug and one is found, it's fixed and the counter is reset.

This story has the feel of a myth, but there's definitely a message here --- LucasArts spends a lot of time and money on QA, and LucasArts products ship with very few bugs --- and they definitely finish the product. I wonder how many of LucasArts' many products tank or don't turn a profit? I can only think of a couple that did poorly.

However, LucasArts is also a kajillion dollar company - I'm not certain where Eidos/Pyro stand, but they certainly have their own deadlines and budgets to work with, and most game dev houses can't afford to test for a year...

But that doesn't exonerate them from releasing an unfinished (and, as a result, overpriced) product.

So as consumers our only recourses are 1) bellyache about it, and 2) use the power of our wallets to not buy future products. Those of us that purchased the game from the right retailer can return the game from a refund (I don't know which companies do/don't accept refunds on computer games, but I believe EB World does - shame I didn't buy it there :)).

Which makes me wonder - if it weren't for software piracy, stores wouldn't have a "no return on software" policy. If most/all stores didnt have such a policy, would Eidos have postponed the release of C3 to work out bugs / finish the game? Love to know the answer to that question.

I'd like to be all high-and-mighty and say I won't buy more Eidos products until they clean up their act. However, there's no way I'm missing Thief III if it's a good title - after all, Eidos isn't so much making it as selling it.

But I'll definitely scruitinize it to death before purchasing.

Xcom
6th Nov 2003, 18:16
Originally posted by MajorHealy
The moderators are likely avid game fans that took the job/hobby of moderator because they enjoy spending their time on the forums chatting about the games, and probably get sick to death of the constant complaining that they have no choice, as moderators, but to read. Not that that was never part of the job or anything, but I still feel for 'em :).

You, indeed, didn't have to apologize, but your way of thinking and healthy attitude is very much appreciated. :)
(I am, in fact, a Commandos fan.)


Those of us that purchased the game from the right retailer can return the game from a refund (I don't know which companies do/don't accept refunds on computer games, but I believe EB World does - shame I didn't buy it there ).

Some countries (and I happen to live in one) don't have the "right" retailers any more (at least to my knowledge). They _all_ have so-called sealed package policy. It means if you opened the box, you can't return the software. I don't know exactly why that is, but my guess is that too many people were taking advantage of that..:rolleyes: One could go to a store and simply say that one didn't like the game (or that it didn't work on his/her pc) and get his money back. Anyway, that is also part of the reason why I am always extra carefull when buying games.

Xcom
6th Nov 2003, 18:30
Originally posted by Twitch
It's the American way to stand up and say what you think.

You do not sound very American to me. You sound more like "working class of the world - unite" kinda guy who's leading nameless others into the bright future. ;)

:p

MajorHealy
6th Nov 2003, 18:44
Originally posted by Xcom
Some countries (and I happen to live in one) don't have the "right" retailers any more (at least to my knowledge).

I just checked, and EB *doesn't* take refund on opened products, much like you described. This was a policy I saw in one of their mall stores a couple of years ago --- perhaps it was a fleeting policy? Or perhaps it was for console games only? I never took advantage of the policy, so I'm not sure.

So it sounds like this may, indeed, be a pretty much global "no software return" situation.

Twitch
6th Nov 2003, 20:34
Nope X-com I ain't a commie. Fought Charlie in Nam. The US Bill of Rights' 1st amendment to the Constiturion guarantees citizens the right to free speech. THAT'S what I mean. We know you guys are fans otherwise you wouldn't be here doing an almost thankless job. Does that X-com stand for ex commie? :)

Major- yes LucasArts puts out fine stuff. One of my 1st flight sims was in 1988 and everything they've produced has been stable and excellent since. Lots of companies get their panites in a bunch with release dates. Think about October. If you aren't out by then forget Christmas. Retail buyers have purchased their items due to arrive long before so they already purchased C3 contingent to the promise that it would be delivered by a certain date. It happens every year when companies release titles not quite or not at all ready for prime time. The sad fact remains that several companies do this. This does not make it right. Some even have abandoned titles they're so screwed up after release.

Xcom
6th Nov 2003, 21:35
Originally posted by Twitch
US Bill of Rights' 1st amendment to the Constiturion guarantees citizens the right to free speech.

Does it, really? Or more precisely, does it guarantee it here?
The US. cost. 1st amendment clearly states that "Congress shall make no law to abridge your freedom of speech, prohibit religion, peacefull assembly etc."
It doesn't say an individual has the right to say whatever he damn pleases everywhere, at any time, under any circumstances and regardless of consequences.

The fact that you are NOT in a public area or governamental institution, but on a (digital) private property which you've been allowed to enter according to your agreement to abide by certain rules, makes all the difference in the world, my friend. ;)

Xcom = eX commando :p

WeinerMan
6th Nov 2003, 22:02
I'm putting in an extra $50 this year for our county's Christmas donations
majorheathen, just wanted to pass along to you a rather famous adage "Mockery is the lowest form of wit."

Twitch
6th Nov 2003, 23:16
Xcom what I mean by it is that is an illustration of the way most Americans act when they feel wronged- they speak out. In many societies and cultures around the world- notably the Orient and Latin American countries people do not do this. I have witnessed it 1sthand on many occassions. If someone cuts in line while you're waiting to buy your copy of C3 and there are limited copies perhaps he will get the last one- the one you would have gotten.
Wouldn't you speak up? I certainly would.

Geez our whole danged country is built on people standing up and speaking out against things like Brit taxes, rule and so on. We just threw out the governor of California for the 1st time ever since recall elections were on the books in 1911. We've had town meetings and open forums in our society forever so we are used to debating topics and speaking up.

I mentioned purposely for those in other countries to take the statement personally for that reason but it was a red flag for a bull it seems. It was an illustrative comment about any complaints at all in a broad sense. I think this is what Beef meant about touchy feelings here and things being taken out of context.

Nothing in the rules was violated by me any more than the myriad of others. I was not pornographic, didn't curse and did not attack anyone personally. If any of these posts get off topic (they're about the gaming industry in general) they are only so due to the fact that moderators continually challenge people by jumping into the fray and taking exception with minor statements that the original writer is obliged to illustrate and define.

As far as slamming any product in particular I guess you'll have to delete almost all the posts on the board, huh?

Come on and lighten up and chill already :D

BTW were you a real military commando? Recon Marine in country 1969-70 in the Ke Sahn area myself.

MajorHealy
7th Nov 2003, 01:48
Originally posted by WeinerMan
majorheathen, just wanted to pass along to you a rather famous adage "Mockery is the lowest form of wit."

WeinerMan - I wasn't mocking you, just having a little fun. Don't take it personally. I'll make it a point not to casually rib you in the future.

(whew - sensitive forum) :eek:

WeinerMan
7th Nov 2003, 02:00
Originally posted by MajorHeathen:

cheap shot
casually rib


there is a difference and i can laugh with the next guy. say what you will my friend, you were mocking me. has nothing freaking to do with sensitivity, i don't cotton to cheap shots. 'nuff said, i think you're a reasonable guy so no hard feelings...

WheresTheBeef
7th Nov 2003, 04:10
Originally posted by WeinerMan
this practice began back when man exchanged two seashells for three shiny rocks so i doubt your crusade against evil eidos regarding the quality of a toy will get you voted most influential by Forbes. anyway, you certainly have every right to repeatedly voice your discontent and, as you say, you seem to enjoy it. i’m only commenting on the futility of it all, not about speaking out against injustice, just wasting your effort here.

next thing my friend. i know you’re a vet and I respect you for that but it doesn’t make you forum oracle. don’t patronize me with this life experience crap and don’t call me sonny again…thanks and I’m sure we can get along.


and AllBeefPatty - sharpen your consumer skills. there's lots of crap on the market. always has been, always will be. that's free trade and it makes effective use of the saying "There's a sucker born every minute". no one made you buy this game. it may be unfortunate it's not what you expected but it's also your decision whether to buy it or not. if you bought crap you have no one to blame but yourself...
This is what happens when you donate your brain to science and clearly aren't done using it. :rolleyes:

ragsy: Yes I read that, but I wanted to know if he personally passed it along.

Twitch, an honorable person such as yourself has no need to explain himself to the likes of Weinerdud.

Xcom
7th Nov 2003, 05:38
Originally posted by Twitch
Nothing in the rules was violated by me any more than the myriad of others. ~snip~
As far as slamming any product in particular I guess you'll have to delete almost all the posts on the board, huh?

I wasn't trying to imply that you violated the rules. It just that I see a lot of people (especially in the other boards I visit) using almighty US. constitution as a "weapon" that supposedly nullifies the forum's TOU and allows them to say whatever they want including flaming others an so on. (again, no reference to you). My previous post was a result of mod's reflex if you like. :D Apologies if it was understood as a warning of some kind.

As for bashing a product, that is indeed a violation of forum's TOU. However, I hope it's become apparent to members (at least those who've been here for awhile because it was mentioned a zillion of times) that we draw a fine line between mindless bashing and constructive criticism.

***

That being said, however, I think that we all need to chill a bit. I also believe that everything that needed to be said, has already been said here (at least for the time being). And I have the feeling that if this is allowed to continue, this "discussion" will soon turn into a flame war.

~ fin