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HypnoticSpector
27th Oct 2003, 17:53
You know how time is suppose to stop in the spirit realm, well water still flows from all of the fountains and the fire still moves, did anyone else realize this and do you think it will be fixed in Defiance? P.S. I think it is stupid that Kain will be able to travel into the spirt realm, I think it would be much cooler if that remained a unique ability of Raziel, and how did the Demons follow raz into spectral in sr2, if time stoped then how come they were able to appear later and fight him, I know this is a little out of place (in Defiance not SR2) but I was talking about time supposedly stopping anyway!

fneh
27th Oct 2003, 18:19
I didn't know kain could enter spectral

The spectral realm is odd. While time doesn't pass in it raziel was there for centuries between the SR1 intro and when you could play from and nosgoth carried on as normal....

"did you expect time to stand still for you raziel"

"well yes actually. Time doesn't pass in the spectral realm..."

HypnoticSpector
27th Oct 2003, 18:26
No because we are not sure if he was in specral then or what nothing about that time has been confirmed!

fneh
27th Oct 2003, 18:34
1. raziel thrown into abyss.
2. raziel ralls to bottom of abyss in spectral realm as if dead.
3. raziel gets up aafter not moving once between arriving and this moment
4.raziel shifts into material to find "centuries had apparently passed"

he was in spectral that ENTIRE time 'sleeping' after being tossed into the abyss

HypnoticSpector
27th Oct 2003, 18:49
Flesh and bone are needed for sleeping! Anyway one of my points for this original post was to say that they should stick to the point that time is suppose to stop when in the spirit realm. By the way if time did stop while in the spirit realm then how does time move at all, remember there are always those souls and stupid creatures in the spectral realm so how can time move when they are in there? It does not make any sense?! (I will not get into the physics of this because it is a game but I am not going to far as to creatures remaining in specral all the time while times still flows)

RA Fox
27th Oct 2003, 18:52
Demons can enter spiritual realm because they are such entities which can travel trough dimensions.

Spiritual realm = frozen time ? I don't think so , Raziel was in such place where nothing moves.. maybe so ? I really do not consider it as a fact that the time is still even if in game it is said so, maybe we misunderstood it. That time was still for HIM not for spectral realm , souls travel to it , so there is movment still.

DmonX
27th Oct 2003, 20:06
Time moves very slowly in spectral. How else can raz be trapped in spectral for 500 years

Soul Reaver
27th Oct 2003, 20:07
Now I remember... I had an argument like that with my friend and we came to a conclusion: Time stops because the spectral realm (for Raziel) is only a moment of the real time-flow meaning time goes on but not in spectral (Like... Raz is fighting a sarafan sarafan drops weapon (at the same time Raz goes to the spectral) the object SHOULD be floating (standing still) in the air (not in SR 2 can't remember SR). Hmm...

Reaper007
27th Oct 2003, 20:09
my 2 cents...

raz was thrown into the abyss. there he stayed for centuries(his body). what we r forgetting is that that when a vamps soul remains in spectral for to long they become a spectral being, like the wraiths(sp). ever notice that the wariths body never moved but vanished when raz shifted to spectral? while the bodys soul is free to move in spectral the body remains in place.

anyone think razs body is still at the bottom of the abyss(hmm i'm going to add this to the theory i'm writing)? feel free to poke holes in my thought.

Reaper007

DmonX
27th Oct 2003, 20:16
I have a nice thingy for you.

What if... Raziel his body has completely dissolved. And the form he is in now was the form he had when he still was there with his consience (assuming that he fainted). And his hatred for kain brought him back to life (the will to kill him is enough to will to the material realm) So when he woke up in spectral it was his last known version of himself willed back to life. And that version needs the souls of others to sustain himself in material.

I would certainly enjoy others people theorys and if it is confusing what i write down please tell me!

HypnoticSpector
27th Oct 2003, 20:17
I think in reality the explanation is that this is a video game made by people so it is going to have some plot holes that were not intended and overlooked and that is the explanation. So just keep in mind that it is just a videogame made by people and that can explain many things!

DmonX
27th Oct 2003, 20:24
Also remember that this is a story. A story with an open end. Meaning that those holes can be explained later on.

fneh
27th Oct 2003, 20:42
Originally posted by HypnoticSpector
I think in reality the explanation is that this is a video game made by people so it is going to have some plot holes that were not intended and overlooked and that is the explanation. So just keep in mind that it is just a videogame made by people and that can explain many things!

EXACTLY. Too many people here search for plot holes then go on about them and how it's impossible. It's only a game in a FANTAS world. It's not like it matters if there's something that isn't possible as long as the game is fun to play and the story makes sense.

SpliffTastic
27th Oct 2003, 20:42
Time is relative. It's an extremely abstract concept which no physicist in the world can truly explain. In the spectral realm, as a spirit, Raziel and the other creatures experience the passing of time. Yet, when Raziel comes back to the material realm, he usually finds that time hasn't passed at all there. Also, I don't think he "slept" in the spectral realm for 500 years. I think that his spirit, or whatever he is, came into being 500 years after his physical body died.

Shadow Man
27th Oct 2003, 21:34
Originally posted by fneh
I didn't know kain could enter spectral

The spectral realm is odd. While time doesn't pass in it, raziel was there for centuries between the SR1 intro and when you could play from and nosgoth carried on as normal....

"did you expect time to stand still for you raziel"

"well yes actually. Time doesn't pass in the spectral realm..."


Originally posted by fneh
Also, I don't think he "slept" in the spectral realm for 500 years. I think that his spirit, or whatever he is, came into being 500 years after his physical body died.

What Idon't think you're getting is Raziel mighten't have died straight away when he was thrown into the abyss, that the pain only made it feel like forever. Straight out of the manual:

Time. I had no concept of how long I fell. Only that there was an end to the fall and through the pain I heard the voice. That and the SR1 opening movie would emply that he fell for most of the thousand years, then was sent to the spectral realm when he was first spoken to by the Elder God.

RA Fox
27th Oct 2003, 21:34
Originally posted by SpliffTastic
I think that his spirit, or whatever he is, came into being 500 years after his physical body died.

More like truth. I remembered Elder God's words "it's this soul that animates the corpse you lived in". I think it matches.

HypnoticSpector
27th Oct 2003, 21:55
Also, no one mentioned my flowing water and fire part, Umah if you know if this oversite was change or not for Defiance or if there is not open fire/flowing water in defiance, please reply.

On a side note, I think Umah and Chris should post their pictures so we can see who our moderators are.

RA Fox
27th Oct 2003, 22:04
Good idea , i would like to see pictures of eveyone :)

2 Shadow Man. But then you fall in the Abyss for a second (maybe more times) You do not spend there falling more than 500 years , right ? So - time flowing while falling into Abyss theory is wrong i suppose...

Umah Bloodomen
28th Oct 2003, 03:07
Originally posted by HypnoticSpector
Also, no one mentioned my flowing water and fire part, Umah if you know if this oversite was change or not for Defiance or if there is not open fire/flowing water in defiance, please reply.

On a side note, I think Umah and Chris should post their pictures so we can see who our moderators are.

To quote that great philosopher, The Butterfly Lord: "All will be revealed in time." ;)

Also, with regard to the photo request, you'll be able to see Chris On Blincoln's site (http://www.thelostworlds.net/TLW-CrystalD.HTML) and if you're lucky, you'll be able to find yours truly and other members of our community in The Legacy of Kain Photo Album Thread. (http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=16109)

Xeratule
28th Oct 2003, 07:12
Is it against the rules to hit on the mod? >:)

Umah Bloodomen
28th Oct 2003, 07:24
There is a photo discussion thread (http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=16110) for you to discuss photos in.

Vampmaster
28th Oct 2003, 08:42
Originally posted by fneh
I didn't know kain could enter spectral

I intend to prove he can when I get Defiance. ***coughAR2cough***

Zohar de Malkchour
28th Oct 2003, 09:54
I don't forget that the Kain's lieutenants went in spectral realm in SR1... If them can do it, so Kain can do it too.

Of Course you don't see Rahab in this realm because water is not present : he would fall...

Shadow Man
29th Oct 2003, 21:36
Originally posted by HypnoticSpector
Also, no one mentioned my flowing water and fire part, Umah if you know if this oversite was change or not for Defiance or if there is not open fire/flowing water in defiance, please reply.

On a side note, I think Umah and Chris should post their pictures so we can see who our moderators are.

I thought about this alot before too, but all I could think of was that elements work differently to normal things in the Spectral Realm. I think you can see air there aswell but not entirely sure about that. Sunlight definately still work because you can see rays of sun. Not sure about the other ones, but this does kind make sense.


Originaly posted by Ra Fox
2 Shadow Man. But then you fall in the Abyss for a second (maybe more times) You do not spend there falling more than 500 years , right ? So - time flowing while falling into Abyss theory is wrong i suppose... I think that at the start you only see Raziel falling in parts, if I remember correctly he keeps coming from a different area. About when you jump into the abyss again, your right raziel does reapear straight away but at the start this can be explained by Raziel dissolving on contact with water, but when he can swim I'm not really able to explain it without really pulling at straws.