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{Ø}Viper
21st Oct 2003, 02:47
Anybody know if MP is going to be in DX2 or not??? or are they going to have a patch for it later on?? Or whats going on??

Thanks

Picasso
21st Oct 2003, 02:49
Definitely no MP in the initial release. It's possible but doubtful for a patch.

{Ø}Viper
21st Oct 2003, 03:13
That Really Sucks!!! untill it gets to be MP im not buying the game. Thats what makes it fun! Playing MP and now they dont include it! what were they thinking!!!

Thanks

Latz

Picasso
21st Oct 2003, 03:16
So a hacked-on-at-the-last-minute generic deathmatch game is that important to you?

{Ø}Viper
21st Oct 2003, 03:19
Well I rather have some sort of MP then Nothing at all. At least that way people might be able to make some patches or something to fix it if its that bad, which it would not be.

Latz

Picasso
21st Oct 2003, 03:23
So, you'd prefer that Ion Storm devote time and resources away from the single-player game to create a multiplayer game (ANY multiplayer game)?

Given a choice between a good singleplayer and no multiplayer, or both that are mediocre, you'd prefer the second? I think you'll find a lot of people disagreeing with you.

There are hundreds of multiplayer games out there that you can play. DX2MP would just be one amongst the hoards.

A good singleplayer game, though. That's special.

{Ø}Viper
21st Oct 2003, 03:48
Originally posted by Picasso
So, you'd prefer that Ion Storm devote time and resources away from the single-player game to create a multiplayer game (ANY multiplayer game)?

Given a choice between a good singleplayer and no multiplayer, or both that are mediocre, you'd prefer the second? I think you'll find a lot of people disagreeing with you.

There are hundreds of multiplayer games out there that you can play. DX2MP would just be one amongst the hoards.

A good singleplayer game, though. That's special.

Ya for me I would rather have a med Single and Mp then a good SP and No Mp at all. Then again thats just me and I do enjoy play MP with many different people. I do play other Mp games just that DX1 I really like and I play dx MP often thats and liek it alot thats y I would like a MP for DX2.

Im sure other people will disagree with me but im just saying what I think thats all. But personally I think even if they had to wait a bit longer to realse DX2 they should of added a MP in it also. If you got a good SP game you sell alot of games but if you got a good SP and a good MP you sell even more games since the MP freaks out their like my self would be more attracked to the game.

But whatever I just hope they make a MP Patch like they did with DX1

Thanks,

Latz:)

auric
21st Oct 2003, 05:10
Just out of curiosity, viper.

Before the DX1 MP patch came out, did u or not buy the DX game while knowing its a SP only?

:)

Picasso
21st Oct 2003, 06:54
Ya for me I would rather have a med Single and Mp then a good SP and No Mp at all.

Even when you can get multiplayer from so many other places?

If you want to play multiplayer, why not just get another game that has good multiplayer?

auric
21st Oct 2003, 08:09
Maybe because other MP games, can't do what Deus Ex can, [Cloak, jump very high, throw stuff, self healing, hack, see through walls (listen actually), etc.]

Most other FPS MPs, are merely shoot to kill with very few methods of doing so.

:)

Le`Sauveur`De`Ces`Dames
21st Oct 2003, 08:21
oooh, the old SP/MP discussion...

wasn't there a poll somewhere, about this one?

(If I remember correctly, most people here think DX:IW doesn't need a MP mode. I know I do)
please check this (http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=22996), this (http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=23397), and this (http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=18528), before going on

AlteredGlyph
21st Oct 2003, 15:26
Originally posted by auric
Maybe because other MP games, can't do what Deus Ex can, [Cloak, jump very high, throw stuff, self healing, hack, see through walls (listen actually), etc.]

Most other FPS MPs, are merely shoot to kill with very few methods of doing so.

:)
I name 2 games: that can do almost all of those things: Jedi Knight II and Jedi Knight: Jedi Academy. But what good does throwing stuff do? It does no damage, just makes a little noise and makes the enemy be on their guard. And in MP, serves absolutely no purpose.

gareis
21st Oct 2003, 15:55
Viper, I think you miss the whole point of Deus Ex and Deus Ex: Invisible War. They aren't there for the killing or for the setting. They are stories, stories that you create by playing them. DX1 was about liberating the world and reshaping it. You can't accomplish that effectively in multiplayer. Likewise, DX2 can only be experienced properly through single-player mode.

Out of curiosity, I wonder how little information would actually need to be transferred between computers to adequately create a multiplayer experience. Probably just the players' positions, their avatars, and the weapons they are currently wielding, along with whether they are firing. The rest could be handled by the individual computers.

Grey Mouser
21st Oct 2003, 18:51
Originally posted by Picasso
So a hacked-on-at-the-last-minute generic deathmatch game is that important to you?

Chuckles to self

What? You mean you don't like hacked on generic deathmatch instead of immersive single-player gameplay? Great gobs of geese! Maybe we should re-publish Daika---- no, I can't say it.

Oh yeah...se ya 'round {Ø}Viper ;)

AINTD
21st Oct 2003, 18:58
Adding MP to DX is like adding a fifth leg to a dog ... it won't run faster and will look weird. DX is not designed and meant to be an MP, Quake-Unreal-like game. Play those, they're good at what they pretend to be doing. First person perspective does not automatically imply a death-match-mode-must-be. IS does it the right way ... in my opnion anyway ...

{Ø}Viper
21st Oct 2003, 22:22
Originally posted by auric
Just out of curiosity, viper.

Before the DX1 MP patch came out, did u or not buy the DX game while knowing its a SP only?

:)

The game came with my sound card when I bought my new computer last year, and if the game had not come with my sound card I would of never heard about it.

All im saying is that if MP was included in dx2 it would be better, more people would buy it because word of mouth would go around saying this game is cool and it has a cool Mp etc etc and it would be popular but because its go to be only SP as of now Some people might not buy it, Like my self because there is no MP which I enjoy. Its just alot more fun if you can play a Freat game online with friends.

Latz:)

gareis
22nd Oct 2003, 00:43
But it wouldn't be an exceptional MP. It would be average, at best. So word would get out that this game should not be purchased because of the poor multiplayer support. If you do something poorly, don't complain when people refuse to look at your other work.

Warren Spectre is wise to emphasize what Deus Ex did well in creating DX2. He felt safer alienating avid multiplayers than offending DX1 acolytes, along with anyone who enjoys RPGs or interactive fiction or a good story.

You said that you'd rather have a bad game with multiplayer than an exceptional game--the best of the year--without multiplayer. Why?

Freddo
22nd Oct 2003, 00:51
I rather have Ion Storm working on a heavy deep single player game, than spending resources on a MP part.

auric
22nd Oct 2003, 01:15
Well, in that case viper. Lets hope like in part 1, they make the patch for it too.

You got the game because it came with your new computer, I got it because my brother bought it & showed it to me.

Coincidences :)

God From Machine
22nd Oct 2003, 03:15
Ok i have three things to say:

1) I have NEVER played MP deus ex, i have had the game since a week after it came out, with no MP, and MP never crossed my mind. Later i even got the goty edition with my sound card like viper, but i never tried to play it online, whats the point? the story, the sofisticated references, and the "wow its like i'm in a movie or a novel" feel kept me playing over and over and over and over. I don't care about MP, i want a great single player game, DX was very intelectual and i found it drew me in and made me think all about what was going on, what it was i was doing. MP does not add to it, if there is mp, maybe they sell a few more coppies but just give me my great single player (and a great single player it looks to be), and let those who are religously addicted to death match play unreal or another more suitable game. And as far as i can tell that is how 90% of the people here feel.

2) Latz has to be the most irritating way to sing off a post, specially when it is used EVERY TIME:mad:

3) I'm still laughing at the 5 legged dog comment :D

auric
22nd Oct 2003, 03:30
just for the record, In case u are refering to me aswell.

I barely play mps aswell only when someone asked me to tag along.

SPs are my favourite part in DX. reason i didn't buy it earlier before my brother, is because i thought this game is no different then any other FPS [a mere linear line story] & not because theres no MP.

Since my brother got it, I tried it & noticed it ain't quite linear. :)

{Ø}Viper
22nd Oct 2003, 03:37
Originally posted by God From Machine


2) Latz has to be the most irritating way to sing off a post, specially when it is used EVERY TIME:mad:


Im just used to typing it now so I allways do :P

If i remember correctly they asked me if I wanted a great SP and no mp or a Decent SP and a not bad MP, I choose the second one. They did not say anything about

"You said that you'd rather have a bad game with multiplayer than an exceptional game--the best of the year--without multiplayer"

dont get my wrong i still want a good SP but I also would like a good MP also, not like its going to happen unless they are working on a patch like they did in DX1 which I hope they are.

I dont know why you have not tried MP, try something different and come play after you get used to it, its pretty fun (Augs or no augs) still cool and a change. If you think you are really good in SP come play MP and I bet you you wont be as good, lol it is a little different but you can gain skill easily if you try.

Latz:P:D

Le`Sauveur`De`Ces`Dames
22nd Oct 2003, 08:12
I dont know why you have not tried MP, try something different and come play after you get used to it, its pretty fun (Augs or no augs) still cool and a change. If you think you are really good in SP come play MP and I bet you you wont be as good, lol it is a little different but you can gain skill easily if you try.

I tried both
I was not too bad (ok, I was not in the world top ten, and I don't even think I was in my country's top ten. except if there are less than 10 MP players in my country, which wouldn't be THAT surprising)
I didn't have fun
again, if I want a MP FPS, I 'll try HL, CS, or even Quake III (with the Auto-GEP mod, that's funnier). no augs, but I odn't miss them in that sort of games

auric
22nd Oct 2003, 10:53
1 thing I like about DX MP is that when we played as the main charactor, JC. we all when out hiding places & trying to take each other out quietly.

I manage to spot them often & snipe them from a distance.

:)

But I sometimes miss the old CS. haven't played it for almost a year.

Fuzz
22nd Oct 2003, 11:19
the best thing is for Ion to finish and polish the SP, and then later on devote their time to making a cool MP patch, like they did with DX1.... and maybe they will even try making a coop patch, but thats unlikely

'nuff said.

ilegacy
22nd Oct 2003, 13:28
I agree with most people about the single player part of DX:IW, but the point is if there is no MP then that meens less sales. UNLESS they have one realy good SP mode. and lets say they do have a good SP mode, what are you going to do after you beat it ? beat it again ? ...im sorry but i for one cant pay $50 for a few hours of game play and thats it..boom its over. Also most games comming out are going to have MP in them, Even doom 3 will have MP. MP gameplay has become such a big thing now that people are expecting some type of MP. DX:IW will need a good story ( wich im sure it does), A realy long and entertaining single play game and other modes you can play besides just the regular SP. if it does not have that then it going to flop....you can say no, no its not but the fact is that most people are looking for a game with a good SP and MP to fallback on and if not MP at least some other mode to play.

I am allmost sure that if this game does not have MP in it, then its gonna get garbage sales for the XBOX...due to the fact of xbox live and how Counter strike is comming and so is rainbow six.

Lawnboy360
22nd Oct 2003, 13:40
UNLESS they have one realy good SP mode.

I wouldn't buy it MP or not if it didn't have a really good SP mode.


and lets say they do have a good SP mode, what are you going to do after you beat it ? beat it again ?

Exactly.


Also most games comming out are going to have MP in them

Big release of the month : Max Payne 2, no MP (and 7 hours SP :eek: ).


I am allmost sure that if this game does not have MP in it, then its gonna get garbage sales for the XBOX...due to the fact of xbox live and how Counter strike is comming and so is rainbow six.

Relatively few XBox players have XBox live. Star Wars : Knights of the Old Republic is the fastest-selling game for the XBox (for the first week) and it doesn't have MP, live or split-screen.

Random
22nd Oct 2003, 13:47
Originally posted by Lawnboy360
Star Wars : Knights of the Old Republic is the fastest-selling game for the XBox (for the first week) and it doesn't have MP, live or split-screen.

This is an important point considering KOTOR is supposed to be quite Deus Ex-like. It seems Xbox gamers are just as happy with a rocking SP RPG as they are with a fast-paced SP+MP shooter like Halo, for example.

And Lawnboy also beat me to it with the Max Payne thing: Max 2 seems to be selling quite well and getting some outrageously good reviews for a game that has 7 hours of gameplay total. DX:IW will have many times that.

Le`Sauveur`De`Ces`Dames
22nd Oct 2003, 13:49
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
and lets say they do have a good SP mode, what are you going to do after you beat it ? beat it again ?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Exactly.


ditto. that's called replayability, this is also one of the many reasons for DX1 success, that you can always find a new way to play it, a new ending to choose, etc

as Huntress would say "It's not how you win the game, it's how you PLAY it! Have FUN!"

ilegacy
22nd Oct 2003, 15:01
Originally posted by Lawnboy360
I wouldn't buy it MP or not if it didn't have a really good SP mode.



Exactly.



Big release of the month : Max Payne 2, no MP (and 7 hours SP :eek: ).



Relatively few XBox players have XBox live. Star Wars : Knights of the Old Republic is the fastest-selling game for the XBox (for the first week) and it doesn't have MP, live or split-screen.


i agree with what you said about Star Wars: KoToR , i played it and it is an extremly good game..but it has a realy good SP and replay value since you can choose the side you want to follow (good or evil)

and with max payne 2...another very good game, i also have that but again max payne 2 will have mod tools available for it. wich people can use to creat new things for people who allready beat SP.

my thing is ..will DX:IW have these replay values ?...will there be mod tools for it ? , is the SP in an linear story ? these of things that will make me buy it or not. i cant replay SP unless its going to be diffrent. its like buying a movie you watch it.....wait for a few months or weeks when your bored and watch it again...i dont want a sp based game like that..if a game is based off of sp i wanna beat it ..then wanna do it all over right after, but see things totaly new.

gareis
22nd Oct 2003, 15:14
Originally posted by ilegacy
...im sorry but i for one cant pay $50 for a few hours of game play and thats it..boom its over.

Let's see...you can beat the game in ten hours or less, right? But that's doing as little as possible, proceeding straight through. You could take at least five more hours--a guess based on various quotes on how extensible the story is and on how many side quests there are. Then there's stylistic variation (snipe, tank, or sneak), searching for alternate paths to each goal, choosing a different faction, and a couple of different difficulty levels (most people wouldn't play at every difficulty).

That works out to over fifty ways to play the game, easily, without paying attention to side quests. So you could be looking at hundreds of hours of gameplay. You'd at least play each faction once, so it's inconceivable that someone who enjoys the game would spend less than fifty hours on it.


DX:IW will need a good story ( wich im sure it does), A realy long and entertaining single play game and other modes you can play besides just the regular SP. if it does not have that then it going to flop....you can say no, no its not but the fact is that most people are looking for a game with a good SP and MP to fallback on and if not MP at least some other mode to play.

We call those other modes "mods", generally.

Speaking of mods, will Ion Storm release an SDK for this game? When?

Le`Sauveur`De`Ces`Dames
22nd Oct 2003, 15:38
my thing is ..will DX:IW have these replay values ?...

oh my god...


is the SP in an linear story ?

oh my god again

ilegacy, did you at least stop to read ONE of the threads on this board? (apart from this one, of course)

did you try something like, I don't know, trying to get a minimal sum of informations on the internet, on the official website, on the fan websites, etc?

(I doubt it. or you wouldn't be asking thoses questions)

{Ø}Viper
22nd Oct 2003, 20:24
Yes i know what you mean you beat the SP game and you play it again and beat it this time in a different way say with only a knife or something, who knows. But after you get to the 3rd 4th 5th time of replaying the game, if you even get that far, its gets kinda Boring thats why if you have MP you can try your luck on MP, like if you were Wicked on SP nobody could touch you, you try on MP and I bet you you will NOT be the best you will probably get raped in there.

For MP you can play that Over and Over And Over And Over and it will NEVER Ever be exactly the same because theres allwyas new people, different maps, different weapons and so on. So the MP version would have More replay abillity then a SP any day. And which in turn is more fun for "Some" people.

Sure there are alot of people that dont care for MP but there are Also people that Care for MP. I mean if you only have SP chances are you are only going to sell to people tha have followed the First DX and some New people that have never heard of it. Now if you put MP in there more people will be interested because you have something to fall back on after you beat SP Many Many times like some of you are saying your going to do.

The simple thing is this, They are making DX2 to make $$$$ and everybody knows that they are not making it for any other reason cause if they did not care about the $$$ they would just give away the game. But its not like that now is it? So wouldnt it make sense to add MP in there if you would sell more games and make more $$$ So think about it if you were making the game would you Add MP??! I know I would and alot of other people would also, so I dunno what they were thinking about when they did not put MP in DX2 especially when they see people still playing DX MP after all this time, like seriously what are you guys thinking!!! Like fine take your time and make a Great SP for everybody that wants it. But also make a Good MP for other people the game has already been delayed a couple of months I think we could wait a couple of more months also and that way it would not be released around the time as other Bigger more know games.

Latz:)

Huntress
22nd Oct 2003, 20:54
Well OK {Ø}Viper, we got your point already...several times saying the same thing. You like MP, that's fine, but many of us do not for one reason or another. You want a MP game...buy an MP game...this audience is more interested in a well done SP game, and yes many of us have replayed DX several times just for the reasons other ppl have stated. I wouldn't worry about the few more sales that an MP component would generate concerning this game...it is NOT supposed to be a MP game and neither was the original...in the same way Thief games were not to be meant to be played in a MP style. If IOS decides to release the codes later for Mod making, etc. then go to it but you won't find that many ppl playing it. That's why these other companies are pushing their on-line MP games...to appeal to that market, which by comparison would not appeal to the FPS'rs...different game, different market.

So that's my 2¢ and please try to understand this market as apparently IOS and Eidos do :) Ta and Good Hunting!

Serge
22nd Oct 2003, 21:46
Nicely put Huntress.

MP is a good thing, but it doesn't mean everything has to be MP. DX is deliberately a different beast, and all power to IS for this.

Sylvester Ink
22nd Oct 2003, 22:19
Gosh, you people. I think that by now, with all the mp threads there have been, this issue would have been settled. Sure mp is fun, but not all games need it. Almost all the classic games are sp, and people loved them back in the day. Many games that are out today have no mp or lousy mp and people still love them.

Besides, I firmly believe that playing with other people is what contributes most to the downsides of mp. Lets take a look at some examples:

Starcraft. The single player game was fun. You had to use your mind to figure out strategies to battle all these different situations. But in multiplayer, people just built big-huge armies and sent them en-masse towards the enemy base. Pure repetition. No creativity. (The "user settings" maps were a lot of fun, but those were technically different games, and not really the core.)

Half Life. Once again, the sp experience was amazing because of the action and the environment. When it came to multiplayer, it was really enjoyable. For the first month or so. I mean, I played for at least 5 hours nonstop for my first multiplayer game, but then after everybody had gotten used to it, they were all doing the same things. No innovation. And then everyone started cheating, which I think hardly contributes to the fun of a game. I challenge ANYONE to try to find a counterstrike game without a resident hacker or cheater. It's impossible.

Everquest. Now I haven't really played it, but I have seen enough to be able to comment on it. Or rather, I don't need to. You can find complaint lists that are miles long about any MMORPG. And all those complaints are about how othe players make the game less fun.

I guess that's a good selection of various types of mp games. So my end conclusion is that at first, a multiplayer game can be loads of fun, when everybody is a newbie and everyone sucks. But then people start to get too good, and you know you can't beat some of these people because they play WAY more than you even have time for. (No offense if there are any of these people here. You're just professional gamers! ;-) So were's the fun if you can't win only occaisionally, and everyone uses the same winning strategy? And of course, human tendency seems to lean towards cheating so in almost any game they can, players will cheat. Which not only ruins the fun for themselves, but the fun for other players as well. (I mean people can cheat on sp, but it will only affect their own game, and the rest of us could hardly care about that.)

The only mp games I can never get sick of is playing with friends I know over the LAN. None of us cheat, we all grow in skill together, and everyone's attitude is friendly. I could have elaborated on the latter quite a bit in the paragraphs above, but this post is already too long anyway. And all that I have said has probably already been said anyway, since that seems to be the way things go on these boards anyway. ;-)

Oh, and please don't misunderstand this post and think that I hate mp. I realize I was a bit harsh, but I was just trying to demonstrate my point.

Fuzz
22nd Oct 2003, 22:51
Let them release the game without MP, polished and perfected. (thats gonna happen anyway). Once you've gotten a bit bored with SP (should be a while) lets hope they will have produced an MP patch by then.

Oh and btw, I don't care if there are 100,000 good MP games out there, playing Deus Ex 2 with multiplayer, either doing a serious mission, fragging, or messing around on the SP maps (like I would do with DX1) is something special in itself.

I understand people who want the Deus Ex: IW release to have an excellent SP experience.... thats what is most imortant to everybody. However, if you say that they shouldn't make an MP patch sometime after the release, you're just lame.

gamergirl
22nd Oct 2003, 23:05
I love a good MP game, too, but I spend most of my gaming time in SP mode/games.

For a game like DX:IW to be successful as a MP game, it'd have to have a good deal of up-front design. Pitting two Alexes against each other in a frag fest would be so NOT DX:IW-like, and might put a bad taste in the mouths of some of us. If one player played as Alex and one as another major character, now that could be interesting. But imagine how much design work that'd require at the outset, let alone extra programming. Frankly, I'd rather see it released as SP than wait another 2 years for a MP-capable game :)

Random
23rd Oct 2003, 01:03
Originally posted by ilegacy
my thing is ..will DX:IW have these replay values ?...will there be mod tools for it ? , is the SP in an linear story ? these of things that will make me buy it or not. i cant replay SP unless its going to be diffrent. its like buying a movie you watch it.....wait for a few months or weeks when your bored and watch it again...i dont want a sp based game like that..if a game is based off of sp i wanna beat it ..then wanna do it all over right after, but see things totaly new.

You will definately want to buy DX:IW, then. :) It will have more replay value than KOTOR: that game has two sides you can follow; DX:IW has four 'sides'. There are four factions in the game, and they all offer you different missions, different goals, and different outcomes. One preview I read said the game offers you three different primary goals at the beginning of the game. If you choose one, you cannot choose the others (but you can switch sides during the game, so you're not stuck with one faction through the whole thing).

An example of how the game changes is that you'll visit between 3 and 13 of the lower Seattle maps depending on your choices. One journalist who previewed DX:IW said that he was almost overwhelmed by the number of options the game threw at him, even inside the first hour of play.

Bottom line is, based on what I've read, you'll be hard pressed to find a game with more replayability than DX:IW. You'll have to play the game several times to have a hope of seeing everything.

Le`Sauveur`De`Ces`Dames
23rd Oct 2003, 07:53
after all, after 3 years, I'm still plaing DX1 SP, and still discovering things, and still having fun. if DX:IW has at least as much replay value, I'm going to be playing it at least until DX3 is out (crosses figers)

Vorlin
23rd Oct 2003, 09:11
There are three kinds of FPS games, IMHO:

FPS games that have a storyline that's SP, no MP - The kind where you have to think about the way the game goes, a non-linear path if at all possible, otherwise at least an immersive storyline (RTCW) with lots of action. A game like DX1 where the storyline was multi-faceted in that you could have one of four endings, well, that's the best kind. Lot easier to program, don't have to worry about multi-anything, less chance to hack apart, etc.

FPS games that have a storyline that's SP, MP included upon release - depending on the company and the design of the game at the initial "let's make a game" meeting, this could be really good (RTCW again) or really bad (host of games here). Unless you can throw some serious money at an entire team dedicated to the multiplayer side of the code, you're going to get a rushed delivery on a game that has a perhaps mediocre storyline with the usual DM/TDM/CTF mentality of MP. Not a good recipe. Then you get to spend time fixing the hacks that people will invariably find and exploit because "that's fun to them", and most real players will have already bailed.

FPS games that have no storyline and consist of MP - games like BF1942 succeed here because your whole goal is just to complete the map by running around with weapons, etc etc. Hell, the SP for BF1942 is nothing more than a primer for MP because that's where it shines. Nothing wrong here because you know exactly what's up. The company made the game that way because it was the envisioned end result. Even though patching is always necessary, you have a concentrated effort in one aspect and you don't have a real storyline to worry about.

All that being said, and with more that could be said, I would MUCH rather have a KICK ASS SP game (see MP1&2, DX1, etc) with absolutely NO MP at all, than the usual humdrum bs crap-tastic barrel-shoot of MP modes (CTF,TDM,DM,Last Man Standing, King Of The Hill, etc) where pre-pubescent teenagers sitting on mommy and daddy's Compaq and cable modem thinks he "pwnz0rs" everyone because he's l337 with mad Logitech MX700 sk1llz in UT2K3 or Quake 3: TA or BF1942 or any number of other "usual" games that don't break the mold compared to any of the other of the veritable hordes of similar games out there.

Viper, you want an MP game? Go get BF1942, maybe add on the DC mod. Get Half-Life and any of the multiple mods for it. Get UT, UT2K3 (Domination is fun, but Assault was removed?!), who knows...you'll have a great time with those. We do not need games like MP, MP2, DX2, and upcoming others ruined by the concept of a lame MP add-on. Note, I understand those are your opinions. These are mine and by no means hostile.

Fuzz
23rd Oct 2003, 10:18
Originally posted by Vorlin
We do not need games like MP, MP2, DX2, and upcoming others ruined by the concept of a lame MP add-on. Note, I understand those are your opinions. These are mine and by no means hostile.

See, this is exactly what I don't understand. I respect your opinion but look at this: First and foremost, eveybody wants to have the best possible SP experience. That we will get guaranteed. DX:IW is being released without MP anyway.


Originally posted by Vorlin
We do not need games like MP, MP2, DX2, and upcoming others ruined by the concept of a lame MP add-on.

Lame MP addon? Ruined by an MP addon? If they release an MP addon for DX:IW several months after the release of DX:IW, will that suddenly ruin the SP experience for you? Nobody is asking you to even download and install an MP addon if it comes out. However there are some people (like me) who would welcome the idea of enjoying the enviroments of DX:IW online with other friends.

And btw, if they somehow made an MP patch for Max Payne 2, it would rock heavily.

Vorlin
23rd Oct 2003, 20:48
When I said "ruined", I'm talking about the same crew that's responsible for the SP factor has to do the MP part as well. There is nothing new about any mode of MP, it's all about the core game at that point. When you detract your attention from the SP side, and focus for an MP side, just to reach a "broader audience", the game suffers for those who want a kickass SP. There are more MP FPS games for the PC on the shelf than just about any other system combined, so let one of those fill in.

As for MP for Max Payne, it would be fun, yes...but it would also be a matter of time when someone hacked the bullet time and then it's all over. That and the usual, god mode, invisible textures, wall hacks, etc...

Alt
24th Oct 2003, 01:09
I would like to add my vote for a multiplayer option. And mod support so that the community can make it better.By the time I found out about the DX1 patch I couldnt find anyone to play with, because the few servers I could connect to were empty.Oh well, from what I hear I didnt miss alot.
Its not that big of a deal, ill still buy the game.But yes I do agree that multiplayer, or the ability to make mission packs for the game will boost its appeal.

Huntress
25th Oct 2003, 02:57
Alt "By the time I found out about the DX1 patch I couldnt find anyone to play with, because the few servers I could connect to were empty" unquote

LOL, exactly my point!!! You won't find that many players interested in doing MP with this game either. The only other exception to my ealier comment was an omission about the Thief series. After posting and thinking about it, there was a MP componet made for it by an independant group that's called "Thievery". However, the only reason that worked was they had two sides to choose from to play...either "Guards" or Thieves". Now this was a pretty well done mod all in all and they did do some upgrades and added more maps, etc. Still there were not many who played it. There were a few servers up and got some action, but it still was limiting as you needed to be able to remember the map layouts and where the "loot" was to be found...then it got to be the Guards also would know and plant their other guys there to watch..blah, blah, blah. I haven't played there for quite awhile myself now, so I don't know how active it would still be...but my point is, is that some games are more plausible to Mod for MP play and others that are better to make a good FM/SP game. I would like to see the latter become a possiblity for extending the play time for DX.IW and someone to come up with a loader as excellent as "Darkloader" for Thief that makes all the FM playing so easy to use!!! :) Ta and Good Hunting!

Mwhore
25th Oct 2003, 03:03
Oh look at all the familiar faces in this thread :D


:wave:

{Ø}Viper
25th Oct 2003, 03:39
Originally posted by Huntress
Alt "By the time I found out about the DX1 patch I couldnt find anyone to play with, because the few servers I could connect to were empty" unquote

LOL, exactly my point!!! You won't find that many players interested in doing MP with this game either. The only other exception to my ealier comment was an omission about the Thief series. After posting and thinking about it, there was a MP componet made for it by an independant group that's called "Thievery". However, the only reason that worked was they had two sides to choose from to play...either "Guards" or Thieves". Now this was a pretty well done mod all in all and they did do some upgrades and added more maps, etc. Still there were not many who played it. There were a few servers up and got some action, but it still was limiting as you needed to be able to remember the map layouts and where the "loot" was to be found...then it got to be the Guards also would know and plant their other guys there to watch..blah, blah, blah. I haven't played there for quite awhile myself now, so I don't know how active it would still be...but my point is, is that some games are more plausible to Mod for MP play and others that are better to make a good FM/SP game. I would like to see the latter become a possiblity for extending the play time for DX.IW and someone to come up with a loader as excellent as "Darkloader" for Thief that makes all the FM playing so easy to use!!! :) Ta and Good Hunting!

The only reason why there are not alot of people that play DX1 Online is because most people dont know about it. Because they realesed it as a patch later on and did not include it in the game. So most people had no idea. Also back then when the game was reaslsed most people were still on 56k cause High speed was still a kinda new thing so to download a mp patch which was probably Over 50mb would take a hell of a long time. So another reason y it was not popular.

Latz

Lawnboy360
25th Oct 2003, 20:12
Also back then when the game was reaslsed most people were still on 56k cause High speed was still a kinda new thing so to download a mp patch which was probably Over 50mb would take a hell of a long time.

That's like 2 years ago, I don't think the difference is that big (56k to high speed).

NamelessOne
25th Oct 2003, 22:39
Originally posted by ilegacy
you can say no, no its not but the fact is that most people are looking for a game with a good SP and MP to fallback on and if not MP at least some other mode to play.


You get multiplayer on almost every other game, so why do you want it from Deus Ex? What do you think will be special about Deus Ex multiplayer? Graphics? No, Doom 3/Stalker/HL2 beat it there. Physics? HL2 has it. Lighting? Yes, but who cares about lighting in multiplayer? Its just run around and shoot people.

If they introduce multiplayer in Deus Ex, it'll be a boring standard thing that most people won't bother with.

Ion Storm took the brave approach by ditching the standard hacked on deathmatch to spend more time on making the singleplayer great. I'll buy it for that reason.

Fuzz
25th Oct 2003, 23:49
Originally posted by NamelessOne
You get multiplayer on almost every other game, so why do you want it from Deus Ex? What do you think will be special about Deus Ex multiplayer? Graphics? No, Doom 3/Stalker/HL2 beat it there. Physics? HL2 has it. Lighting? Yes, but who cares about lighting in multiplayer? Its just run around and shoot people.


none of those reasons. The reason I enjoyed playing the Deus Ex MP was because it was Deus Ex.

and haven't any of you guys tried playing the SP maps with your friends? Its great fun. My friends and I would be busting into maggie chow's place- killing her, stealing furniture and throwing it onto the balcony of Paul's apartment. Then we would play basketball, have group showers :D Only bad thing was that the enemies would point their guns at us and wouldn't shoot. I got a semi-working Dx coop working with just editing the ini files...

So would it be that hard for Ion to do the same thing they did with Dx 1? Would it affect the SP portion of the game? Is anybody forcing you to download any MP patches if they do come out??

downTime
28th Oct 2003, 15:12
Missing the point guys. Yes there are tons of MP games, but what made DXMP a great MP game was the balance, the way the aug combinations gave you something other than hack and slash or point and shoot to think about. Just as the game was non-linear, the MP was the same. You could get really, really good at one style and then start from the beginning with a new style and suck again. Replayability.

You guys never got into it and that's fine, but considering how poorly it was released, quite a few folks did. And almost three years after the patch was released, there are still servers and players.

DXIW will never be as good as it could have been if they had decided to delivered a great SP and great MP game out of the box. You seem to think that SP would have had to be downgraded some how if MP was also included. That's just letting the developers off the hook. A game will only be great if it includes SP, MP and an SDK for the mod community. That's the only way everyone who plays the game can get the most out of it.

Basically all I've heard in this and other threads is that SP is most important because it's what you guys are into. That's a very limited perspective and it's nothing but opinion. If you went to a MP forum, they might say the SP doesn't matter at all and that MP is the only thing that matters. And the modders would say the SDK is all that matters...

Le`Sauveur`De`Ces`Dames
28th Oct 2003, 15:24
And almost three years after the patch was released, there are still servers and players.

well, servers at least.


DXIW will never be as good as it could have been if they had decided to delivered a great SP and great MP game out of the box

well, it will at least be released sooner. which is just fine by me.
Mathematically, if you include MP in the development, you have the choice beween a longer development or a downgraded SP, since the time you spend on MP won't be spent on SP. I prefer neither.


Basically all I've heard in this and other threads is that SP is most important because it's what you guys are into. That's a very limited perspective and it's nothing but opinion. If you went to a MP forum, they might say the SP doesn't matter at all and that MP is the only thing that matters. And the modders would say the SDK is all that matters...

well... exactly. (who denied this?) most of us here prefer SP, so most of us say we don't care about MP, and prefer a good SP. (again, and as you said, it is a matter of opinion)

downTime
28th Oct 2003, 15:33
You forgot a third choice, hire more programmers.

forgotten
28th Oct 2003, 15:33
The thing is, is that it was the SP that made the game great and if the SP sucked then no one would have bothered making an MP.

I don't have anything against MP and i wouldn't mind if they put it into their first relese of the game cause im confident that the SP will be mind blowing.

Anyway, this argument seems to be going in circlues...

Le`Sauveur`De`Ces`Dames
28th Oct 2003, 15:45
Originally posted by downTime
You forgot a third choice, hire more programmers.

well I send you back to the Tao of Programming (http://www.canonical.org/~kragen/tao-of-programming.html#book6) (3.4) : more programmers doesn't mean faster development.

but I agree with forgotten, we ARE going in circles (like every time this subject was discussed)

Lawnboy360
28th Oct 2003, 20:00
You forgot a third choice, hire more programmers.


more programmers doesn't mean faster development.

I also doubt that Ion Storm has an ''Fountain of Unlimited Funds'' waiting in the janitor's closet.

Sylvester Ink
29th Oct 2003, 00:35
I think that by this point in time, discussion of this topic is COMPLETELY pointless. People have already stated ALL the reasons why mp is good. People have already stated ALL the reasons mp is bad. (No joke!) The only reason to continue talking about it is to try to convince the developers that there are enough people who care about it to include mp in the game. Since the game is pretty much finished, and testers are nearly done on their part, it's VERY doubtful that anything we say now will change any aspect of the game.

Loki-009
29th Oct 2003, 01:56
to many people think that if they add in a multiplayer mode the single player game will suck but if they add in multiplayer features after release the single player game is already done so if they added in a multiplayer mode after release i am sure thats going to add on to the game not take away and hey if they do the multiplayer right and add on to it im sure many RP people from half-life would enjoy that. but hey either way im still buying the game im just hoping they will take the time after to put on a multiplayer.

Le`Sauveur`De`Ces`Dames
29th Oct 2003, 08:34
yeah, I think we had already agreed on that?

Sense
31st Oct 2003, 20:45
Originally posted by downTime
Missing the point guys. Yes there are tons of MP games, but what made DXMP a great MP game was the balance, the way the aug combinations gave you something other than hack and slash or point and shoot to think about. Just as the game was non-linear, the MP was the same. You could get really, really good at one style and then start from the beginning with a new style and suck again. Replayability.

You guys never got into it and that's fine, but considering how poorly it was released, quite a few folks did. And almost three years after the patch was released, there are still servers and players.

DXIW will never be as good as it could have been if they had decided to delivered a great SP and great MP game out of the box. You seem to think that SP would have had to be downgraded some how if MP was also included. That's just letting the developers off the hook. A game will only be great if it includes SP, MP and an SDK for the mod community. That's the only way everyone who plays the game can get the most out of it.

Basically all I've heard in this and other threads is that SP is most important because it's what you guys are into. That's a very limited perspective and it's nothing but opinion. If you went to a MP forum, they might say the SP doesn't matter at all and that MP is the only thing that matters. And the modders would say the SDK is all that matters...

Exactly.

Sense
31st Oct 2003, 20:50
I'm starting to think the developers might not really know why dx1 was good -- it was just a fluke. Or they don't care if they put out a mediocre product, because there's no competition and 12 year olds will buy anything.

Neutrino
31st Oct 2003, 21:13
Single player only.....NO MULTIPLAYER..... DX:Invisible War would be completely ridiclous as a multiplayer game.... I am talking in dialogue with an NPC and some other player character from a different faction comes up and shoots me... Complete loss of immersion and totaly absurd.... Multiplayer is a completely different gaming experience. They are just mindless shoot outs. A complete bore.

Sense
31st Oct 2003, 21:25
Originally posted by Neutrino
Single player only.....NO MULTIPLAYER..... DX:Invisible War would be completely ridiclous as a multiplayer game.... I am talking in dialogue with an NPC and some other player character from a different faction comes up and shoots me... Complete loss of immersion and totaly absurd.... Multiplayer is a completely different gaming experience. They are just mindless shoot outs. A complete bore.

That's like saying all FPS games are mindless shooters because doom is. DX:IW could be a unique MP Game just like it's a unique SP experience. There's a growing market for MP games and it will only continue to increase. Soon there actually will be some innovative MP games released, then the dx developers will be thinking: "****, why did we make that cheesy, medicore, corny dx2 game? The 12 year olds we were marketing it towards didn't even buy it." Truth be told, they really aren't innovators. DX was a fluke. Dx 2 is going to suck.

Neutrino
31st Oct 2003, 21:33
Uh, NO......Sense? You make no sense.... The market for MP has peaked... It's all downhill from here on out for multiplayer.

Sense
31st Oct 2003, 21:35
lol, we'll see.

gareis
31st Oct 2003, 21:35
Originally posted by Sense
I'm starting to think the developers might not really know why dx1 was good -- it was just a fluke. Or they don't care if they put out a mediocre product, because there's no competition and 12 year olds will buy anything.

Many of the people here know what made DX1 great. Structured options. You could solve a level however you wanted, be a hero or an assassin or a merciful infiltrator or a sneaking spy. You could allow people to die or save their lives.

It was--and is!--a superior game because it combined the popular fps format with roleplaying. I'm not talking about numbers and stats roleplaying; I mean acting as you choose to act. Freedom is what the gamers want, but complete freedom is boring. I want to make decisions, but I don't want my path cluttered with as many meaningless decisions as I have in real life.

You chose the fate of the world in Deus Ex, but you only chose it in the last twenty minutes of the game. In Deus Ex: Invisible War, you will have the opportunity to choose your loyalties and make them fully known as early as you want. That will make DX:IW a greater game than its predecessor.


Originally posted by Sense
That's like saying all FPS games are mindless shooters because doom is. DX:IW could be a unique MP Game just like it's a unique SP experience. There's a growing market for MP games and it will only continue to increase. Soon there actually will be some innovative MP games released, then the dx developers will be thinking: "****, why did we make that cheesy, medicore, corny dx2 game? The 12 year olds we were marketing it towards didn't even buy it." Truth be told, they really aren't innovators. DX was a fluke. Dx 2 is going to suck.

If that's true, you're doubly foolish--you know the game will be horrible and yet you hang around a forum devoted to it. If you mean what you say, don't buy the game. It's as simple as that.

You're a troll and gain pleasure of some sort by angering people. It won't work on goodnatured people like you'll find here.

Sense
31st Oct 2003, 21:41
I come here to look for updates about dx2 -- I loved Dx 1. If dx2 turns out good, I will buy it. From what I've seen, it looks ridiculously cheesy, though -- just voicing my opinion, not trying to anger anyone.

Neutrino
31st Oct 2003, 21:45
Originally posted by Sense
I come here to look for updates about dx2 -- I loved Dx 1. If dx2 turns out good, I will buy it. From what I've seen, it looks ridiculously cheesy, though -- just voicing my opinion, not trying to anger anyone.

Please define cheesy? You mean graphically it looks cartoonish, comicbook like?

Sylvester Ink
31st Oct 2003, 23:01
Over 80% of successful games did not have mp. Why should those games be unsuccessful now? And the thing that makes mp less fun is in fact those other players are human. There always seem to be some bad eggs that ruin the multiplayer experience for everyone. (Counter-"Cheat"? Diablo 2": The Hacking"? EverCrack? I think my point is made.)

And Sense, are you just going to be another garbage-spewer? Just because you haven't played the game, or know half the details doesn't mean that you can go and trash the game. Seems like a lot of your posts are about this. I don't know about the rest of the people on the forums, but if you're going to have such a negative attitude, I think you might find it more fun to be elsewhere . . . ;)

Random
1st Nov 2003, 01:02
Originally posted by Sense
I'm starting to think the developers might not really know why dx1 was good -- it was just a fluke. Or they don't care if they put out a mediocre product, because there's no competition and 12 year olds will buy anything.

Deus Ex wasn't awarded 35 game of the year awards because of the multiplayer. :)

Lawnboy360
1st Nov 2003, 03:40
I'm starting to think the developers might not really know why dx1 was good -- it was just a fluke.

FYI, DX's developers have worked on other excellent games. While I don't know exactly, I do remember Warren Spector was involved in the classic "Ultima" RPGs, and at least a few members worked at "Looking Glass", responsible for System Shock 2 and Thief 1/2. (That would also explain why they're working on Thief 3. ;) )

Sense
1st Nov 2003, 04:40
Originally posted by Random
Deus Ex wasn't awarded 35 game of the year awards because of the multiplayer. :)

You are missing the point entirely.

Sense
1st Nov 2003, 04:44
Originally posted by Neutrino
Please define cheesy? You mean graphically it looks cartoonish, comicbook like?

Look @ the box cover art...Future war on terror...Come on. What a joke.

downTime
5th Nov 2003, 18:04
The Multiplayer Community would like to completely disassociate ourselves with this "Sense" person. Most of us really liked the single player DX and will be purchasing DX:IW so we can play the single player quite a few times, even if no MP comes out eventually. I myself beat the first game twice before even becoming aware of the MP patch because it did have that replayability. If all the advertisments are true, DX:IW will have much more replayability than the first game.


We just will stop by here from time to time to remind anyone from Eidos or Ion that might cruise these forums that we're still around and still very interested in them coming up with a patch so we can play a new version of DXMP.

Same for the Mod community, I would imagine.

Tinuz
5th Nov 2003, 21:24
Well, if you like MP i can recommend this game: www.s2games.com and then click on Savage:the battle of newerth

Its MP only without monthly fees, and plays easily. So if you want MP, go there and leave us.

But i dont think DX would be a succes with MP, the Biomods would ruin it.
Every player would work with a standard set of biomods. Because some are more effective at combat and thats what you are doing.
Think of the effects of things such as cloak. The person who controls some energy point would be the winner because other players cant see him.

And what makes DX so great? Its the fact that you can play as youwant to play it. In MP you are forced to react to other players and cant play it the way you like it.

Oh yes, before yu start whining that we dont know squat about MP gaming, i like to inform you that i am quite the hardcore Unreal tournament player ( 2003 ) .

Riddler
6th Nov 2003, 23:58
WARNING: LONG POST, DEAL WITH IT :)

Hey dT. Good to see you fighting the good fight.


Originally posted by Random
Deus Ex wasn't awarded 35 game of the year awards because of the multiplayer. :)

True. But, how do you know it wouldn't have won 70 if good mp had been included out of the box?

I used to be of the same mindset as most of the people posting in favor of SP DX2 without MP. Well, while in college, I acquired a new roommate that hated video games. I sat him down in front of Deus Ex and forced him to play for at least an hour. Much to my delight, he was hooked. The Joy of Deus Ex had overcome his inner frat daddy and transformed him into, gasp, a COMPUTER GAMER. I came home from work one day and he motioned for me to sit at the computer and explain what something was in Deus Ex. I sat down and realized he had gone into the multiplayer menu. I looked back up at him and said, no lie, "You don't want to play that. I've never even played it and it's a shooter: mindless, pointless, boring." For some reason, he ignored me and joined a server anyway. I watched him play for a while, laughing every time he was slaughtered. He never even killed one person. When the game was over, I, naturally, had to try my hand at it to see if I could get at least one kill in order to outdo my roommate.

A few days later and we had the MP mechanics figured out. The pace was about 1000 times that of single player, you still had augs, and you always used them.

a few months later

I come home from work. My friend yells out to me, "I just whooped some clan member's ass!" We always got the most enjoyment out of killing the people that obviously took MP way too seriously. Little did we know the path we were on...

a few more months later

We eventually ended up joining a clan and things took on a whole new meaning then. It was no longer an abstract community. We knew just about everyone's name and they knew ours. There were still players out there that could kill us more times than not but, the feeling we got when we would finally kill one of them cannot be put into words.

end of time lapses

Don't get me wrong. I have played through DX in single player many times and I've enjoyed it every time. However, NOTHING compares to the feeling of playing DXMP for me now. Have you SP-only fans really given DXMP, or any MP for that matter, a fair shake? I hadn't until my friend showed me the "other half" of Deus Ex. Yes, maybe it will take a year for you to get really good at it, maybe less, maybe more. The fun is in getting there.

I know you SP fans have heard it all before but I must post on this in the hopes that you all go insane by hearing it over and over until you submit with glazed eyes into the goodness of multiplayer gaming. I was once just like you. Come to the dark side. You'll start to like it after you've killed a few people. I promise.

That said, I'd rather wait 2-3 more years from this date for a great singleplayer AND multiplayer game than to get only the singleplayer game in a month or two. That's how much a good multiplayer game means to me.

Neutrino
7th Nov 2003, 00:24
"Have you SP-only fans really given DXMP, or any MP for that matter, a fair shake?" - Riddler.

Yes, I have played multiplayer before... A long time ago, me and a friend hooked up our computers and played DOOM multiplayer for a few months...We would play seek and kill each other on different levels.. The first one that reaches 100 kills wins... I was losing 92 kills to 99 kills to my opponent.. Then I came back and got 8 kills straight to win 100 kills to 99 kills... It was a completely intense gaming experince.... We are both highly competitive, and despise losing..... We tried working together as a team to clear out levels...But we didn't like that... It was boring... We liked shooting each other better... However, I have grown out of multiplayer, and it doesn't interest me anymore. It really is one dimensional play.. It gets old fast.


"That said, I'd rather wait 2-3 more years from this date for a great singleplayer AND multiplayer game than to get only the singleplayer game in a month or two. That's how much a good multiplayer game means to me" - Riddle

A 2-3 year wait?...that is completely insane...and I am embarrassed for you :o ;)

AINTD
7th Nov 2003, 01:00
I have tried MP on several occasions for several games and never felt impressed or absorbed. DX is purely a SP game. You're a bit off by talking about the "other half" ... more like other 5-10% at most.

And naturally I wouldn't like to wait a single day more for this completely unnecessary (in my opinion) feature to be added. SP games rule.

Alexandrowicz
7th Nov 2003, 01:50
For the X box a Halo like VS mode would be prety cool

KingLouie
7th Nov 2003, 04:27
It probably won't do any good, but I'm here to tell you that Deus Ex Multiplayer is the gah-REATEST video gaming experience OF ALL TIMES.

I see a couple of you up there poo-pooing Riddler's argument for Multi Player; you say you've played Doom and other shooters and that there's nothing to it. I've played those, and you're right -- they're boring after about 20 minutes. But Deus Ex MP is different. The secret is in the defense.

Augs, man. When I first started playing, I'd come across dudes and shoot them in the face, only to die. "Why didn't you die, man?" I'd ask. "Noobie ass noob," they'd say. It made me want to kill them even more, but the more I went after them, the quicker I died. They were using augs to defend themselves, as well as using them on the OFFENSIVE. I soon noticed that some of them would become invisible, and that others could jump over buildings. "How'd you do THAT??!" I'd ask. "Noobie ass Nooberton," they'd say. But soon, I figured it all out and used augs of my own. You can combine them to maximize your style; you can re-arrange them to combat a player that's streaking wildly. You can lay low with them and hunt from the shadows, or come out blazing like the fist of God. They make it far more than a ping-pong shooter -- they make it a war.

Newbs get chewed up in this game -- they die in about 1.5 seconds. But to watch two vets go round and round is something resembling a 12 round title bout. There's far more to it than shooting guns: there's conservation of bio, keymapping, aim, fakes and bobs and weaves. The problem with shooters is that, for the most part, it's bang bang DEAD. In deus ex MP, if a player is good enough to use augs, then he can stay alive long enough to fight through hallways or around cabinets and doors. Lots of cat and mouse, and more live action chess-like strategy than any other gaming experience I've ever known, and that includes boardgames and internet hearts.

So if there's anyone here in charge of making DX2 with multiplayer options, I vote that you don't do it. Don't make MP, because the MP version of DX proves that you can lead gamers to the river of blue electronic goo, but you can't make them drink. I've tried countless times to explain to people how multi-dimensional the game is, but they can't seem to grasp it. They want Wolfenstein where they can BAP!! shoot someone in the foot and get a kill.

It was obviously an accident that DXMP was such an awesome multiplayer game. And, just as we saw with Weekend at Bernies, any attempts to duplicate an accident will only result in catastrophe, ergo Weekend at Bernies 2 and 3.

From the Jungles of a Cynical Old Fart,
King Louie

AlteredGlyph
7th Nov 2003, 05:18
I've played 'DXMP, and I agree that it was an intense experience. But only if you could find a server that wasn't using hacks or had no augs on and was on an actually fun map. I found one or two of those servers, and it was awesome, but I never found another one.
DXMP was good, but only on the right servers. You must have had the luck of finding a few good servers.
DXIW should ONLY have multiplayer as a patch. Give people time to play the game, get used to it, and then come out with an MP patch, one that is bug-free and doesn't detract from the SP. MP at launch is a waste of time, considering that it'll take 2 months for me to finish the single player fully, and then I'll probably play it a few more times for fun, before I get bored and want MP. Patch is good, release is bad.

Zhanate
7th Nov 2003, 06:16
"Why didn't you die, man?" I'd ask. "Noobie ass noob," they'd say.
...

I soon noticed that some of them would become invisible, and that others could jump over buildings. "How'd you do THAT??!" I'd ask. "Noobie ass Nooberton," they'd say.

THAT's why I don't care about a multiplayer component. I've made occasional forays into multiplay land (with various games) and never felt welcome. It has nothing to do with the game play -- I made those forays because I really thought it could be fun. It's just not a culture I feel comfortable in. I understand trying to talk down someone who's good so maybe they'll falter. But acting jerk-like to the clueless seems pretty much like a screening device. I just don't get the MP culture.

KingLouie
7th Nov 2003, 06:28
Originally posted by Zhanate
THAT's why I don't care about a multiplayer component. I've made occasional forays into multiplay land (with various games) and never felt welcome. It has nothing to do with the game play -- I made those forays because I really thought it could be fun. It's just not a culture I feel comfortable in. I understand trying to talk down someone who's good so maybe they'll falter. But acting jerk-like to the clueless seems pretty much like a screening device. I just don't get the MP culture.

And THAT's why MP will always be greater than SP -- MP provides an enemy infinitely more dimensional than a programmed one.

Let me put it like this: which enemy is more engaging -- a programmed one who can be defeated by endless quicksaves and advantageously stale and predictable behavior and movement, or an enemy endlessly unpredictable, whose taunts and attacks are scathingly interactive?

And one more question: which enemy would you be more elated in defeating? Some mindless, computerized concoction, or an asswipe in Finland who's forced to eat his words when he calls you a Noob?

No contest.

MP=The Future. All else is just games.

From the Jungles of DXMP,
Kang Louie

Random
7th Nov 2003, 06:57
Originally posted by KingLouie
MP=The Future. All else is just games.


Why not work towards a believable NPC AI? The only way MP would give the same experience as SP is if all the players roleplay. If they all follow the storyline (do any MP games have a decent storyline?) and act like believable characters in that fictional world. The moment one of the them team kills another and yells 'L4M3R N00B LOL!' the fictional world is ruined.

If you want to run around levels killing people non-stop, that's entirely up to you. People have different tastes. Personally, I think SP is still far more believable because no one breaks the fiction.

I've played some MP games over the past few years; I played DXMP quite a bit. I don't mind running around levels killing people all the time, in the right game.

So no, I don't think you're right to say MP is the future. There is room for both SP and MP, and I personally am glad that companies like Ion Storm are still committed to providing a great SP experience. There are many MP games around to satisfy. Probably too many.

Zhanate
7th Nov 2003, 08:07
Let me put it like this: which enemy is more engaging -- a programmed one who can be defeated by endless quicksaves and advantageously stale and predictable behavior and movement, or an enemy endlessly unpredictable, whose taunts and attacks are scathingly interactive?

Well, shooting down the jerks would be satisfyiing if they'd have to stop being jerks, but they just come back as jerks again. So it kind of remains meaningless.

Like I said, I just don't get the culture. The learning curve doesn't scare me away. It just seems like it would never be fun in that atmosphere. Maybe I can find some shield augs for my ego ... .

Anyway, call me lame, but I like pretending I can save the world. Can't do it in real life, so give me those scripted villains. :D

Le`Sauveur`De`Ces`Dames
7th Nov 2003, 08:54
Originally posted by KingLouie
Let me put it like this: which enemy is more engaging -- a programmed one who can be defeated by endless quicksaves and advantageously stale and predictable behavior and movement, or an enemy endlessly unpredictable, whose taunts and attacks are scathingly interactive?

well, I usually don't kill anyone (ok, almost anyone) in DX, so I don't see the point...

what I found great in DX1 was that you didn't HAVE TO kill everyone.

(try sneaking and not killing anyone in MP.)

maybe if they release a MP patch in which you compete with other to achieve a goal that is NOT killing each other 20 times to be the best, then I will say MP is great.
until then, DXMP is just another shooter.

AINTD
7th Nov 2003, 11:04
The fact that human opponents are SUPPOSEDLY more interesting to play against than AI controlled ones and therefore MP gaming is way better than SP is not that straight-forward. As it has been mentioned, human players tend to cheat and search for weaknesses in game's mechanics to exploit them, now that's very fun, right? Besides, I do not actually consider the reaction of enemy troops to be THE most important part of the game. In DX I seldom ran into close encounters. And from what've seen and been told, AI in DX:IW is good enough. I still don't see the point of MP ... it looses all the sence and meaning of the SP game.

VodunLoas
7th Nov 2003, 11:22
Seems you want some storyline in MP, but that can only be done if it were a MMORPG(Massive Mulitplayer Online Role Playing Game). ;)

Random
7th Nov 2003, 11:27
Originally posted by VodunLoas
Seems you want some storyline in MP, but that can only be done if it were a MMORPG(Massive Mulitplayer Online Role Playing Game). ;)

Exactly. ;) Games can give us much more than adrenaline rushes.

Le`Sauveur`De`Ces`Dames
7th Nov 2003, 12:18
Originally posted by VodunLoas
Seems you want some storyline in MP, but that can only be done if it were a MMORPG(Massive Mulitplayer Online Role Playing Game). ;)

MMORPG aren't the only way : coop games can be done.

some RPG, for example, would allow one player to control up to 4 characters, or up to four players controling each one character.

in the first case, you decide for everyone. in the second, each player decides for himself, but everyone still has the same goal.

I tend to think the second case is more interesting, since playing 4 characters, even if each has differenced game-induced reactions, is like playing one big character: they still mainly follow your orders. (and you tend to choose characters that will do so without problems).

so 4 players is a way to see the game differently. you can even compete with other players to see who will be the most clever, the faster, the highest level at the end, so there is still copetition, and I would think this more ineresting that the "kill -be killed- respawn" routine of classical MP

by the way, I don't know of any good coop RPG yet. except maybe NeverWinter night (where by the way I'm still stuck in the SP game).