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View Full Version : Urgent Petition! Plz change that hackneyed & cheesy "Future War On Terror" tag line!



IconoclastDX
15th Oct 2003, 19:53
Ok, before you all go neurotic on me let me just say:

1) I love DX1
2) I love Ion Storm
3) Im full expecting to love DX:IW just as I was expecting to love DX1
4) Im fully expecting to buy the game as soon as I comes out.

Ok, Now my little beef.

Urgent Petition! Plz change that hackneyed & cheesy "Future War On Terror" tag line!

Sure it might be accurate. Heck, it might have even been passable a few years ago. But in a post 9/11 market, I would bet that there ISNT a more overly used and cliched phrase than "war on terror". People are just sick of hearing about "war on terror". It makes people think of ratings hungry 24 hour news stations beating us over the head with "war on terror" "WMD" and "UBL".

Now I know that Ion Storm is trying to increase its market base and is trying to attract many xBox players who MIGHT be of a younger persuation and PERHAPS just a little... less aware of the world situation. Therefore, such a vapid tag line like this might actually seem enticing or even slightly sophisicated. But for the rest of the WORLD, its trite, unimaginative, uninspireing and insipid.

NOW ITS UP TO YOU.

If you think that DX:IW current tag line is weak or if you just think that it could use a little reconsideration, then please POST YOUR OPINION HERE

If you dont agree with me and you thing that "future war on terror" just bleeeeds with poignant originality., then by all mean, you can of course post it so here.

Thx

Lawnboy360
15th Oct 2003, 20:17
I do think the tag-line could be better...

gamergirl
15th Oct 2003, 20:19
It's weak and corny. Now, I am on the edge of my seat about the game's release (I even dreamed about it last night!), don't get me wrong. But if I had never heard of it and I was out shopping for a new game, I might actually pass it by if that was all I saw as I was perusing the boxes on the game store shelves. I mean, if the game's "slogan" is that corny, how good could the game be?

Lawnboy360
15th Oct 2003, 20:32
But if I had never heard of it and I was out shopping for a new game, I might actually pass it by if that was all I saw as I was perusing the boxes on the game store shelves. I mean, if the game's "slogan" is that corny, how good could the game be?

The tag-line and box art are very important to attract uninformed gamers. How people can spend $50 on a game because of a cool box art is totally beyond me :) Yesterday, I went to EBGames and witnessed a surreal scene with a guy saying to his friend : "Look at that game, Lionheart, it looks totally c00l!" - "Hell yeah!". He then bought that game. From gamerankings.com : "67% based on 25 media outlets". It was sad, really. :(

Fuzz
15th Oct 2003, 21:02
yah I share your views completely IconoclastDX :up:

Fuzz
15th Oct 2003, 21:03
I can easily imagine Bush endorsing this game :rolleyes:

TheDerf
15th Oct 2003, 21:45
The line isn't even accurate. You could very well be a terrorist in the game... every opposing faction would view you as a terrorist and you would do the same to every opposing faction. You're not a good guy unless you're working with people who declare you a good guy, so you're going to disappoint everybody in three groups plus the general public regardless of how you swing.

I'd like to know what Eidos plans to accomplish with this phrase. Maybe they're thinking deeper than we would like to believe.

For now, I say change it.

Lawnboy360
15th Oct 2003, 21:49
Here's the image used as a link to the new DXIW site on IS' web page, I bet you'll like it ;)
http://www.ionstorm.com/images/Informant/dxiw.gif

Sylvester Ink
15th Oct 2003, 22:37
It's probably too late to get them to change it anyway. But who cares! As long as it isn't in the game itself, I can deal with it.

If it draws more people, good. Ion Storm earns more money and acclaim and they can begin work on DX3 (or DX:WMD).

If it frightens away people, also good. DX remains loved by the people who originally loved it. We don't need none of those other players anyway.

But if the tagline is in the game, I would have to see it everyday. And it sounds so bad that it would drive me insane. And then Alex starts talking about "Destroying that Axis of Evil" . . .


*****************************************
Any reference to any political figures is entirely accidental. After all, it isn't polite to discuss politics and religion in public company where peoples' viewpoints could differ radically. ;-)

Grey Mouser
15th Oct 2003, 22:38
Originally posted by Fuzz
I can easily imagine Bush endorsing this game :rolleyes:

There is no need to be insulting.

;)


...let's just say it is a Marketing decison that I highly doubt would be in the game itself. I'll point this thread out to them though, just to be safe.

Lawnboy360
15th Oct 2003, 22:42
Grey Mouser, as a forum admin, you must have great influence within Eidos, right? ... ;)

--

Just noticed the last few lines.
You might as well point out this : http://www.ionstorm.com/forum/viewthread.asp?forum=AMB_AP619612110&id=26757

--

Seriously, I wouldn't guess from the box art that one unique feature of DXIW is that you can go through the whole game without touching a gun, with the gun being even more proeminent then Alex.

Wait a minute, this is the thread about the tag-line, not the box! Oops :o

Quillan
15th Oct 2003, 22:55
Please, please PLEASE choose another tagline! I have to agree, if I hadn't already played DX, and new nothing about IW, I would pass it by if I saw it in the store with that line on it.

NamelessOne
15th Oct 2003, 23:27
Someone should put up a poll... So far we have 0 for the slogan, and all against.

Its such a stupid slogan, it makes no sense and it sounds corny.

Imagine if the intro had it as the ending line. Instead of "We have the cells in human bodies. An invisible weapon in an invisble war." the guy says "We have the cells in human bodies. To fight the future war on terror!".

Its just lame. The boxes and CDs and stuff wouldn't have been printed already, I'm sure they can change it.

Sourcerer
15th Oct 2003, 23:55
The term 'Jumping on the band wagon' springs to mind. It's cheap and tacky.

It seems to be aimed at run around and shoot everything kids who might not apreciate too much complexity in their gaming, in which case they may be a little dissapointed with Invisible War and then they'll tell all their friends how crap this new game they just bought is.

Deus Ex had an air of intrigue and subtlety about it. This is about as subtle as a psychopath with a baseball bat.

I really think it needs changing.

I did prefer "An invisible weapon for and invisible war", but there are problems with this. As has been suggested, people might assume the game involved searching for an invisible super gun or something. Also I think it would not read right to have "invisible war" in the tag line as well as the title.

All this criticism would be better if we could come up with a workable alternative. Time to get the thesaurus out me thinks.

Sourcerer
_______________
You don't tell time,
time tells you.

dirigimaster
15th Oct 2003, 23:55
It does suck, this is an undeniable fact.

But it's appealing to the masses, which are massively stupid. So stupid people will buy the game. With the notion of killing terrorists and seeking virtual revenge.

They'll prolly change it for Europe, the prevailing attitude there being ill favoured towards Bush and phrases he has coined.

they could make a DX parody though, DX: Evil Do-ers. In the first game you play as GH Bush, in the sequel you play as GW Bush

Random
16th Oct 2003, 00:40
Originally posted by Fuzz
I can easily imagine Bush endorsing this game :rolleyes:

He'd get a nasty surprise when he realises you can side with the terrorists. ;)

The problem I have with the tagline is that it makes it seem like the game is related to the current terrorism situation, Al-Qaeda and so on -- which it's not. I'm sure we all cringe when we see a game called Operation Iraqi Freedom sitting on store shelves, and I don't think Deus Ex should be alongside it.

I think the type of person who would be attracted by that tagline are the ones who would be offended by the possibility of becoming a 'terrorist'. ;)

There's a thought: I wonder if media outlets will complain that DX:IW teaches you how to be a terrorist. :D

Lawnboy360
16th Oct 2003, 01:29
I'm sure we all cringe when we see a game called Operation Iraqi Freedom sitting on store shelves, and I don't think Deus Ex should be alongside it.

Ahem... it's already out! Time to cringe.

F/A-18 Operation Iraqi Freedom
Avg Ratio: 57%
http://www.gamerankings.com/htmlpages2/917899.asp

roomba
16th Oct 2003, 02:16
Ugh.
That's one bit of realism I can do without in Deus Ex.

Frankly, the less I'm reminded of the bitter realities outside the gameworld, the more fun I can have remaking the bitter unrealities inside it.

And it's a cheap attempt to capitalize on all the mindshare "war on terror" is getting. Tacky is the most polite word for it. There are others.

Marketing needs to re-think this one.

(Meaning no offense to anybody at Eidos or Ion Storm.)

--
roomba

Banasukisama
16th Oct 2003, 02:35
Agreed, the tag line is unacceptable.

So what would an alternative be?

Well...

1. Watch your back... or they'll watch it for you.

2. Decide your fate... and the world's.

3. The future is in your hands.

4. Forge your own path.

5. Agent(s) of Destiny/Fate

Hehe, cheesy, some of them, but at least they showcase the game's primary features ie nonlinear plot and gameplay.

Please suggest more. Hopefully one of them will catch the eyes of the powers that be before that godawful tag line is printed.

-Banasukisama

AlteredGlyph
16th Oct 2003, 02:43
How 'bout: An invisible weapon... for an Invisible War.
That would have to be the best one anyone can think of.

Kenji
16th Oct 2003, 03:32
The whole "...War on Terror" phrase is unfortunetely a good move. Like the other guy said, most people are sheep.

Years later we got people walking around spewing profanities at white guys with deep tans. Why not capitalize on that blind hatred. Not to go off on a rant, but arabs constitute 1/3 of the worlds population. If they were all terrorists we'd be screwed.

I'll buy the game even if that remains the tag, and even if they go with that horrible surfer dude holding a gun like some stereo typical LA gangster (gansta). And sadly yes that has a good chance at attracting the idiot masses. So let them do it. Let it sell. If it makes a lot of money we'll get a lot of support and another sequel.

I guess the new skill/aug system will work fine for the twitch junkies. I just hope it doesn't turn this into a video game a 6 year old could play. Complex game play and deep strategy is the only way I can justify playing video games at my age.

Anyway, like I said go for mass appeal in the marketing. Let the suits and pens do their best to market this game to the widest possible audience. I just hope the game play is not as "mass appealing". As long as the people that matter (designers, writters, and programmers) know what DX fans expect and stay true to it I'm ok.

Here is to a Solid release

TheDerf
16th Oct 2003, 03:56
I know if I saw a game with an unimaginative, unusually purple/pink cover and a guy standing mindlessly with glowing eyes in the middle of it looking off into the side of another game on the shelf and over this, it says "The Future War on Terror", my first impression of that game would be, "Ohy! Why do people even market this crap?" That would be the same for most of us, and this is how we subliminally judge what Eidos is defacing.

It should at least have a remotely cool tag line, for one. "Watch your back... or they'll watch it for you.", probably the best of Banasukisama's sugestions, is infinitely better than "The Future War on Terror." Firstly, it strikes the question, "Who's they?" and shortly after "Why watch my back?" Then a short moment after, you're thinking, "What kind of compelling storyline do these guys have in store for me? It's all been done before... I think. It would be stupid for someone to put out a game that mimics another story's plot or game's concept. A looksy wouldn't hurt."

Also, I think the "Watch your back... or they'll watch it for you." line appeals to a mature audience more so than a young one. Bad for marketing you say? The line, in my opinion, will also work it's way into the mind of a younger person, just a tad more simply though. Something like, "oOo! A spy game!" Watching your back is something you can relate to. If you're a person, you know you have a back, and hey, the game says you have a back too! w00t! You're already in the mood to play a game like DX2 when you read the tag line.

sajcd
16th Oct 2003, 05:27
Quotes from the Eidos developer journal introduction:


Here at Ion Storm, we sometimes describe the first Deus Ex game as being set "10 minutes before the apocalypse" and describing "the death of the old order."

Similarly, we describe Deus Ex: Invisible War as "10 minutes before the dawn of a new age, the birth of the new world."

and


Sadly, the most widely applied weapon in the war for humanity's future is terrorism.

If your goal is a "new age" and the "birth of the new world" and the obstacle between you and your goal is terrorism, then isn't it Alex's goal to end terrorism and therefore declare a "future war on terror"?

"The Future War on Terror" may sound cheesy, but if you take the quotes from the developer journal to heart then "Future War on Terror" describes exactly Ion Storm's intentions for the game.

IMO there should be no tag line. Simply "Deus Ex: Invisible War".

Machinax
16th Oct 2003, 05:38
Originally posted by Sourcerer

Deus Ex had an air of intrigue and subtlety about it. This is about as subtle as a psychopath with a baseball bat.

Haha, very nice.

And with this whole section of the boards so strongly behind the idea of changing the tagline, you've got to figure that SOMEONE up at Eidos is taking notice.

Next thing to change would be the box cover art, as well as the tagline.

Le`Sauveur`De`Ces`Dames
16th Oct 2003, 07:44
As I said in an other thread, I also think the tagline should be changed.

I wonder what posters on the IS forums think of it. If they agree with us (well, most of us), it might be more convincing than the 24 of us

(even if I trust the tremendous influence of Grey Mouser about marketing decisions)

Trollslayer
16th Oct 2003, 11:47
I'd like to add something to this.

I don't personally mind the "Future War on Terror" tagline. I'd probably use the "An invisible weapon for an invisible war" (and no, this doesn't remind me the slightest of trying to find invisible weapons. Im not sure how someone could be reminded of such, anyway), or even no slogan at all, but its not what will make me go out and buy the game. When im interested in a game i follow its development cycle as best i can, so i'm not the usual type of gamer that's automatically struck by boisterous catchphrases or slogans. Some people here probably do the same as me, even. Of course the majority of people aren't like this, and they just gotta be hit with flashy, incoherent slogans when they go out and buy games. Hell, i should know, my job will be to trick them with such things. Anyway...

Now, the slogan is being pointed out as trying to capitalize on the current war on terror. That could be said, yes. This type of marketing isn't new, however, and its obvious the similarity (if not outright connection) of the slogan with reality is there. There are other games out there that do it in a much worse scale - in fact, after 9/11, there have been a lot of games that tried to capitalize on this. One game is even about hunting and killing Saddam Hussein :eek:

Regardless, my opinion is this. First, these accusations of Ion Storm trying to capitalize on something are... strange, to say the least, when people say its wrong. Outside the slogan, its also trying to capitalize on the success of the predecessor. Not only is the theme of the game pretty much the same - an agent working against terrorism - there will be recurring characters from the first. The gameplay is also the same, only improved. Basically, everything that made Deus Ex a success, Ion Storm is capitalizing on it. I mean, its visible in every interview that Warren gives out. Regardless, this isn't new.

Second, some people say its a direct way of trying to garner more people by relating it to a real life event, or awareness of a situation. Even if it is, some people are forgetting that the theme of fighting against terrorism in the not-so-distant future is the recurring theme of the games. The NSF were terrorists. MJ12 were terrorists. Silloutte were considered terrorists. Claiming the slogan is wrong because some people might relate it to Al-Qaeda and overall terrorism while the game has you fight terrorist organizations seems more of a double standard. I mean, people may dislike the slogan because some might infer it refers to real life terrorism, but lets not forget we will be fighting against terrorism in the game.

Third, for all we know the slogan might be quite accurate for the game. Its a pity everyone attacked the tagline and didn't spotted sajcd's post, which i agree with. Here is the core of it:


Originally posted by sajcd
If your goal is a "new age" and the "birth of the new world" and the obstacle between you and your goal is terrorism, then isn't it Alex's goal to end terrorism and therefore declare a "future war on terror"?

He is right. Lets not forget that there are various organisations trying to take over the world in Invisible War. If each plans to take it over by whatever means necessary, including terrorism, Alex is definetely fighting against their form of terrorism, regardless of which organisation he joins. So the slogan might be more accurate than what some claim.

Fourth, i don't even think that that slogan will be on the game itself. After all, there isn't an official game box yet, and all those taglines we see are being seen on a site thats still far from being complete. Some of those taglines arew even from wallpapers. Wallpapers. Its visible when a community is frothing for a game when they get angry about lines in wallpapers that don't necessarily represent the final product.


My 2 Euro cents.

Random
16th Oct 2003, 12:38
No one is denying that the game is about terrorism, but I think the issue people have it with the use of a George Bush cliche. Does anyone actually use the term 'war on terror' when discussing the current state of world affairs? No offence, but I would hope not. It's a phrase that's reserved for ultra-right-wing redneck hicks who get their opinions from Bush's public speeches and the Fox News channel. Cliches are to be avoided at the best of times, and this one certainly shouldn't be used to sell a serious game like Deus Ex, which explores the morality of terrorism (from what I gather).

I know it will never happen, because it wouldn't be worth Eidos's bankruptcy, but a controversial and relevant tagline would be something like: 'Will you fight the terrorists, or become one?'

Lawnboy360
16th Oct 2003, 12:41
Fourth, i don't even think that that slogan will be on the game itself.

I just looked trough by stack of boxes, and the vast majority don't have a slogan on the box. There's mentions of "X of the year" or "Developed by the creators of X".
Exceptions : "The Longest Journey" and Deus Ex (goty) with:

"Real Conspiracies
Severe Consequences
Intense Action Role-Playing"

Trollslayer
16th Oct 2003, 12:49
Originally posted by Random
I know it will never happen, because it wouldn't be worth Eidos's bankruptcy, but a controversial and relevant tagline would be something like: 'Will you fight the terrorists, or become one?'

That'd be too direct, and would really be controversial. "In the future war on terror, how will you choose to fight?" seems more "open-ended" in terms of presenting a question, while being acceptable.

And i agree with what you said, that "Cliches are to be avoided at the best of times, and this one certainly shouldn't be used to sell a serious game like Deus Ex, which explores the morality of terrorism", but nowadays, is there still anything that isnt' a cliche, or that still hasn't been used? The "war on terror" has always existed. But the real problem is not the relation between 9/11 or terrorism overal and the game's slogan, it's that the slogan was coined by someone who is lacking severely in coherent gramatical skills (George Bush).

gamergirl
16th Oct 2003, 13:52
I'd hate to think that with a company of such intelligent, creative people, they couldn't come up with something more imaginative than "the future war on terrorism." There's nothing wrong with it, per se, but it's weak, it's corny and, like others have said, it's cliche.

IconoclastDX
16th Oct 2003, 18:01
You know, it really doesnt matter what exactly the phrase is or what it might or might not be related to. That fact is it's a hackneyed and paltry platitude that makes people moan when they read it. Moaning at such obvious unoriginality CANT be good for he game or its creator's reputation, no matter how germane the slogan is.

Edit: Yeah, someone should probably post this, or something similar on ths IS board. I would but I dont have an account and dont really feel like getting one now.

MiG
16th Oct 2003, 18:42
Thats the tagline?
Man, that reeks conservatism...
And considering Ion Storm are one of the most brilliantly liberal developers out there, its quite amazing what Eidos' marketing can spin on the cover...
Change it already!
Howbout something, normal along the lines of "sequel to the best-selling cyber-fi genre blending game"
Or better yet! No tagline at all!

Grey Mouser
16th Oct 2003, 18:54
Originally posted by Lawnboy360
Grey Mouser, as a forum admin, you must have great influence within Eidos, right? ... ;)


Precisely! ...not. 3rd rate tech flunkies do not get a lot of respect from people with expense accounts, usually.

...I give it my best effort though.

And sometimes they do listen to me. :)


Originally posted by MiG

Or better yet! No tagline at all!

I like that!




Originally posted by Le`Sauveur`De`Ces`Dames

(even if I trust the tremendous influence of Grey Mouser about marketing decisions)

You should be able to get 8-to-5 odds with any Las Vegas bookie. The Over/Under is 17 points though, so don't bet the farm. ;)

sneelock
16th Oct 2003, 19:20
I'm sitting here and watching all your posts and i cant but laugh about your predicament. You talk about people jumping on the band wagon and then do it yourselves. I think that the reason every one is so upset at the slogan is because i sounds like president bush; and you all seem to hate him. I don't about you but a ton of the gamers out there are kids, you see it whenever you go into a store its the kids hanging out in the video game section. Probably because they dont have any responisbilities so they see a game with pretty box and a say "mommy can i get that". where as we the older crowd, late teens and up look at reviews and then decide wether to buy the game. so as you can see edios is covered. I'll probably get flamed, but maybe in can borrow Le`Sauveur`De`Ces`Dames signature...

FliX
16th Oct 2003, 19:50
Originally posted by sneelock
I think that the reason every one is so upset at the slogan is because i sounds like president bush; and you all seem to hate him.

yes i DONT agree with Mr (Chimp) Bush :rolleyes:

and yes this DOES sound like him :(

Machinax
16th Oct 2003, 20:07
Matters of perception. Hopefully, though, if the game goes ahead with the "war on terror" tagline, it won't detract from the gameplay or the plot. I just think that any such tagline would belittle the game itself, or the deeper moral questions raised by the original. That is, if DX:IW raises any of those questions (or new ones) at all.

Banasukisama
16th Oct 2003, 20:24
So let's get a general agreement on some points here:

1. we don't like the current tag line
a. ideally a catchy replacement would be good
b. if not, no tag line at all is fine

and as a separate but related matter:

2. we don't like the alleged cover art
a. gun implication on gameplay
b. appearance of character - glowy eyes, spiky hair, gender, etc.

Hopefully this outline captures our various complaints well. For example if 20 people agree to 1a, 14 to 1b, 21 to 2a and so forth we can prioritize our beefs with DX2's marketing.

We need to send a clear message to Eidos and Ion Storm about how we as a group feel about the situation, not a storm of individual variations on a theme.

-Banasukisama

Rain
16th Oct 2003, 20:46
How is this game different than any other game? Take Counter Strike for example. You can choose to be on either team, the Terrorists, or the Counter Terrorists. I don't see anyone anywhere, complaing about that game. Doom III, which is due out sometime in the next few months, has an outrageous title. No one is complaining about that title either. Or how about WarCraft III? It says War in the name, but again, no one complaining about it either.

It looks to me, that some people are hypocrits, who have nothing better to do, than to complain about something they do not like. If it were up to me, and I wish it was, I'd leave it the way it is, cause I know it will sell like crazy because of that simple little 4 word line.

Originally posted by IconoclastDX
But in a post 9/11 market
There will always be a post 9/11 market, no matter how you look at it.

"Future War on Terror" -- Sure, I'll go for that. Sounds appealing to me. Funny thing, is how I didn't even notice that line, until after I came to the forums. Guess I was to interested in the GAME, instead of the words on the COVER of the game.

Lets break it down for you folks:
Deus Ex: Invisible War ~ Future War on Terror

If you can't figure that part out, then no reason to continue.

Look, it comes down to this: If you don't like it, you don't have to buy the game. No one is forcing you to like or not like the "FWoT" line. No one is going to force you to buy the game. The line sounds appealing, and its appealing to the consumer.

Originally posted by dirigimaster
But it's appealing to the masses, which are massively stupid. So stupid people will buy the game.
Exactly, dirigimaster. It is appealing to the masses.

Rain
16th Oct 2003, 20:52
Originally posted by Banasukisama
gender
I do believe you can play as either Male or Female in the game, according to this (http://www.dxinvisiblewar.com/).

Loki-009
16th Oct 2003, 21:03
I myslef dont care much of what the slogan says but hey for those of you who like to nitpick here are a couple i thought sounded pretty good

if the goal is peace,then a war must be fought.

or

in a world where fear is a weapon, will you chose to fear or fight?

or perhaps last but not least

in a world consumed by darkness, who will light the way?

just a couple i though sounded good and where true to the feeling of the game im not saying the current slogan is bad but i just decided in my state of boredom I will be creative for you people and pop up a few ideas.

Fuzz
16th Oct 2003, 21:05
Um Rain, first of all your example about Counter-Strike is very flawed because in that game its a simple matter of kill the other team, set the bomb blah blah.... but basically its 2 paramilitary groups against eachother. While in Deus Ex its different... if you wanted to you could go on a rampage and slaughter innocent civilians or blow up a restaurant. So such a comparison is irrelevant.

Secondly, you might say that such a tagline will appeal to the masses, but it also might repell any more mature gamers who are looking for a unique experience (assuming they don't know about Dx1)

Another thing you should realise is that everybody here who are deus ex fans will buy deus ex 2 whether the box art and slogans are **** or not. But we are concerned about why such talented developers are slapping a cheap cover on such a fine book, even though they can easily afford to make the whole package top notch like they did with the first game. Of course the game itself will rock, but smaller details add up to make a significant effect as well, especially for the people who don't know much about the Deus Ex in the first place.

Sourcerer
16th Oct 2003, 21:22
Frankly, if the tag line read "Join the gay leather militia boys and fight to out senator Bob Dole" I'd still buy it, I mean come on, this is Deus Ex2 here. Thing is, I really want lots of other people to buy it too.

The characters in the art work look a little young and inexperienced and even maybe are not as inteligent looking as I would expect. I am not saying they should have glasses and a goatee (and a crowbar), but I think, as they are part of an intelligence network, (they have spent their whole lives so far being raised and educated with this role planned for them the whole way.) they could look a little more conservative. They have to actually look employable. Maybe that's just the english man in me.

Actually, you know, thinking about all this, I realise I just want Deus Ex 1 all over again. I want my slicked back hair, my long black coat and dark glasses again

Maybe it's time to let go. This is a new game.

Lawnboy360
16th Oct 2003, 22:37
Some assume that someone who would be interested in a more "mature" game such as DX would already know about it, and I don't think so. There's plenty of people who, after a few years of playing shooters as a casual gamer, no longer find those games satisfying and then stop gaming (which is for kids, anyway), to turn to books, or whatever. If such a person sees DXIW on store shelves, sees a box with a guy holding a pistol gangsta style with the slogan "The Future War on Terror", he's not going to look for reviews to learn if it's in fact a unique game in which you can choose not to kill people, etc, etc.

If gaming is really to become mainstream, publishers should really try to break this cycle of
-teens buy shooters; let's publish shooters
because at some point a lot give up gaming for something deeper because they don't know about the few games that have some dept.

(The post didn't come out as I wanted, but I don't feel like changing it; I'm lazy ;) )

Machinax
17th Oct 2003, 00:32
Originally posted by Rain
How is this game different than any other game? Take Counter Strike for example. You can choose to be on either team, the Terrorists, or the Counter Terrorists. I don't see anyone anywhere, complaing about that game. Doom III, which is due out sometime in the next few months, has an outrageous title. No one is complaining about that title either. Or how about WarCraft III? It says War in the name, but again, no one complaining about it either.


The Deus Ex series has always prided itself on being the game where you could shoot or talk your way through. Where's the room for negotiation in Counter-Strike? When you play a game like Counter-Strike, you know you're playing a game where you shoot first, and don't bother about asking questions at all. With Deus Ex, there were consequences to doing that. Having the gun on the cover of the game makes Dx:IW look like a generic FPS, and isn't what the game is supposed to be about. Same with Doom III.

With regards the tagline, it'll be the same way. With the success of a game like Counter Strike, it's conceivable that someone could look at the "war on terror" and think the same of DX:IW - that it's a game where you walk around shooting bad guys. Or worse, you go around shooting terrorists with turbans and long black beards. And if Invisible War is anything like the original, then it's going to be based on premises with (hopefully) a lot more depth than that. Who plays CounterStrike for the story?

Even with Doom, there's a story, sure, but does anybody play it for the greater moral implications of gameplay?

Machinax
17th Oct 2003, 00:37
Originally posted by Sourcerer


The characters in the art work look a little young and inexperienced and even maybe are not as inteligent looking as I would expect. I am not saying they should have glasses and a goatee (and a crowbar), but I think, as they are part of an intelligence network, (they have spent their whole lives so far being raised and educated with this role planned for them the whole way.) they could look a little more conservative. They have to actually look employable. Maybe that's just the english man in me.

Actually, you know, thinking about all this, I realise I just want Deus Ex 1 all over again. I want my slicked back hair, my long black coat and dark glasses again

Maybe it's time to let go. This is a new game.

Nicely said.

About the age thing, remember that Alex didn't finish his training at Tarsus by the time the game starts.

But yeah, there's something to miss about the pseudo-Matrix look of JC. I know, I know, DX was in development long before Keanu Reeves made the look famous, but still.... I read an early Invisible War interview where Harvey Smith, I think, said they were trying to move away from the sunglasses/long black coat look. A good idea, probably, but a shame nonetheless.

Machinax
17th Oct 2003, 00:38
Originally posted by Banasukisama
So let's get a general agreement on some points here:

1. we don't like the current tag line
a. ideally a catchy replacement would be good
b. if not, no tag line at all is fine

and as a separate but related matter:

2. we don't like the alleged cover art
a. gun implication on gameplay
b. appearance of character - glowy eyes, spiky hair, gender, etc.

Hopefully this outline captures our various complaints well. For example if 20 people agree to 1a, 14 to 1b, 21 to 2a and so forth we can prioritize our beefs with DX2's marketing.

We need to send a clear message to Eidos and Ion Storm about how we as a group feel about the situation, not a storm of individual variations on a theme.

-Banasukisama

I like your thinkin'.

gareis
17th Oct 2003, 00:54
Originally posted by sneelock
I'm sitting here and watching all your posts and i cant but laugh about your predicament. You talk about people jumping on the band wagon and then do it yourselves.

We were here before we saw any wagons. Don't talka us about the band wagons, ya whipperschnapper.

*removes tongue from cheek*

`gareis^\

Fuzz
17th Oct 2003, 09:46
Originally posted by Machinax
Nicely said.

About the age thing, remember that Alex didn't finish his training at Tarsus by the time the game starts.

But yeah, there's something to miss about the pseudo-Matrix look of JC. I know, I know, DX was in development long before Keanu Reeves made the look famous, but still.... I read an early Invisible War interview where Harvey Smith, I think, said they were trying to move away from the sunglasses/long black coat look. A good idea, probably, but a shame nonetheless.

I think Harvey is an idiot somtimes. Sure, if you really want to get rid of the sunglasses, then I guess I could part with that... but the trenchcoat? Not only did the trenchcoat look cool, it was the best excuse for the ability to carry larger weapons (rifles, shotguns...)

Even though the GEP gun is ridiculously big to be hidden in the coat, its still much better than apparently carrying the weapons around in tights- with glowing violet panels on them. Now it just looks like Tron. It seems Harvey wants to change everything in the game when it is quite unecessary in my opinion.

Random
17th Oct 2003, 10:09
Since the only time we'll ever see ourselves is in mirrors, is it really a big deal what we look like? ;)

Personally, I like the new look. JC's style is so last millenium.

Tenkahubu
17th Oct 2003, 11:55
Please stay on track here people. You are supposed to be whining about how lame the tagline is. Personally, it makes me feel ill. I live in Europe and from my perspective it seems like this game is endorsing GeorgeW, not the other way round. I dont like to believe that the creators of DX could be so stupid. Even if they do support him they should not be expressing their views in this game. DX 1 dealt with ideas way above party-politics, I dont know why they have suddenly decided to lower themselves to this. Of course, I also agree that the tag does not seem to reflect the gameplay that we are expecting.

I dont know how important the European market is to Eidos, perhaps they dont care, but if they do then somebody MUST rap them on their thick skulls and give them the shocking revelation that GeorgeW is a seen as somewhere between a laughing stock and hated warmonger. Even a mild association with this man will not help the sales outside of the US.

I will buy the game, but shall be scratching this offensive slogan off my copy, both the box and the CD itself. I hope that we are given some kind of explanation, even if nothing changes.

Machinax
17th Oct 2003, 15:37
"Peace Sells....But Who's Buying?" -- Megadeth

Centauro
17th Oct 2003, 16:11
I wouldn't blame the creators of DX:IW (Ion) but the publishers (Eidos) about this kind of very stupid decisions. I have a high concept of Warren Spector to believe such a crappy tag comes from him or his team in Austin... Hope thay change that tag and choose a good box artwork now that there's still time before the printing and burning of everything begins.

gamergirl
17th Oct 2003, 16:32
I believe Warren is "Studio Director" or some such, which does not necessarily mean 'his team' came up with the tagline/slogan/whateveryouwanttocallit. But it could still have originated within Ion Storm (marketing dept).

Fuzz
17th Oct 2003, 19:14
I blame Harvey Smith.



:D

Banasukisama
17th Oct 2003, 22:03
Originally posted by Tenkahubu
I dont know how important the European market is to Eidos, perhaps they dont care, but if they do then somebody MUST rap them on their thick skulls and give them the shocking revelation that GeorgeW is a seen as somewhere between a laughing stock and hated warmonger. Even a mild association with this man will not help the sales outside of the US.

I totally agree. If they ever hope to market this game in Asia (think Korea == pc game crazy) any connection to George Bush will be detrimental to DX2's prospects. I love this game too much to feel even neutral, much less good about this.

So in the absence of a poll, just use my outline above to summarize your complaints. I'll parse through them and tally points for each and present a clearer picture to Eidos about our complaints. We need to stay on topic and be more organized about this until Eidos gets their act together and responds to us.

Can we at least agree on that?

Dr Strangelove
20th Oct 2003, 18:27
I don't think it actually matters whether or not the 'future war on terror' tagline is relevant to the game - it's a phrase with very real, current connotations and one which has already been coined by a certain idiot in the real world.

ffs, in the first Deus Ex you ended up siding with a load of people all declared 'terrorists' by the US government and discover that the agency working against them was a front for an evil conspiracy - not exactly the story you immediately associate with the phrase.

MiG
20th Oct 2003, 21:14
Theres a market for intellectual games, infact thats the way games will head as the years go by, with the current audience, of course growing up. But there already is a market for some kind of semi-intelligent games. Civ 3, the total war series, to some extent half life, any lucasarts adventure and of course the first Deus Ex have proved that time and time again.
So why don't edios wake up and smell the daisies?
We don't want a game (or coverart) pusing right wing, conservatist, gun loving, NRA forever attitudes. We want a game were we can talk to a barman in a club in Hong Kong, debating about human rights and seperatist countries issues. We want a game were we don't have to kill anybody, we want a game were people lie to us, were we don't always follow orders, were the only definition of failure is our game avatar lying dead on the ground. We want our game where we can wear sun glasses at night, and still look cool.
So why the tagline that promotes nearly the exact opposite of what we want?

hakselsen
20th Oct 2003, 22:07
Not many suggestions here folks.... I'll be the first to admit that slogans are hard to come up with. The fewer words you're going to use to describe something, the harder it gets.

I think some of the words on the website is workable:

Deus ex: Invisible war
- The dawn of a new age

Deus ex: Invisible war
- The birth of the new world

Lawnboy360
20th Oct 2003, 23:39
Game slogan are usually only in print ads, not on the box, so it's not that bad really.

Dr Strangelove
21st Oct 2003, 15:36
Birth of a new age sounds good

Reaper47
21st Oct 2003, 19:00
Hi, I just registered just to say how stupid this crappy tag line sounds and I'm happy to see there's already a topic open about it. It's really really pathetic...

MiG
21st Oct 2003, 19:49
How about, "A game by Warren Spector (and/or) Ion Storm"

Tbone
21st Oct 2003, 20:17
Not that it'll do any good, but I agree -- the slogan has to go. For Eidos' apparent target market, this is going to just reek of corporate fakeness. For the more mature audience like myself, it's just tacky if not plain offensive, whether you agree or disagree with the current political situation. Remember when somebody (I believe it was Sony) wanted to register "Shock and Awe" as a trademark to be used in game marketing? Remember how well that worked out for them? Pay attention, Eidos. I don't expect you to care one whit about politics, but I do expect you not to make stupid business decisions that are easily avoidable by reading a friggin' newspaper.


On a (mostly) unrelated aside:
Originally posted by MiG
We don't want a game (or coverart) pusing right wing, conservatist, gun loving, NRA forever attitudes. We want a game were we can talk to a barman in a club in Hong Kong, debating about human rights and seperatist countries issues. We want a game were we don't have to kill anybody...Actually, "right wing, conservatist, gun loving, NRA forever attitudes" would probably be a pretty good description of your average NSF member. Deus Ex fell along libertarian lines far more than along conventional liberal-conservative lines. But I wouldn't really say that the game had any particular political leaning over all. What was fascinating about Deus Ex was that it brought up all of these different political perspectives, but it never told you what you were supposed to think, or forced you into answering the questions they posed in any particular way. And they didn't go easy on anyone, either. Things were never the unrealistic black-and-white scenarios that most games hand to you. China was the only soverign nation left, but it was also very totalitarian. Is that good or bad? Sillouette was fighting for freedom, but in the course of that fight, they killed people. If you wish to be free from the tyrany of an evil government, what freedoms would you keep to yourself? How far would you go to defend it? And just what does national sovereignty mean if your country always defers to a globalist organization? I've played this game in accordance with several different political agendas (pacificism and conservativism included), and you come across challenges any way you play. If you walked away from Deus Ex feeling that it preached a One True Ideology (TM), I think you've missed out on the very texture and poignance of Deus Ex that made it a truly revolutionary game.

Dr Strangelove
22nd Oct 2003, 06:28
One thing I thought was rather fun about Deus Ex was that all the 'conspiracy nuts' were turning out to have been right all along

Machinax
22nd Oct 2003, 16:23
Originally posted by Tbone
Not that it'll do any good, but I agree -- the slogan has to go. For Eidos' apparent target market, this is going to just reek of corporate fakeness. For the more mature audience like myself, it's just tacky if not plain offensive, whether you agree or disagree with the current political situation. Remember when somebody (I believe it was Sony) wanted to register "Shock and Awe" as a trademark to be used in game marketing? Remember how well that worked out for them? Pay attention, Eidos. I don't expect you to care one whit about politics, but I do expect you not to make stupid business decisions that are easily avoidable by reading a friggin' newspaper.


On a (mostly) unrelated aside:Actually, "right wing, conservatist, gun loving, NRA forever attitudes" would probably be a pretty good description of your average NSF member. Deus Ex fell along libertarian lines far more than along conventional liberal-conservative lines. But I wouldn't really say that the game had any particular political leaning over all. What was fascinating about Deus Ex was that it brought up all of these different political perspectives, but it never told you what you were supposed to think, or forced you into answering the questions they posed in any particular way. And they didn't go easy on anyone, either. Things were never the unrealistic black-and-white scenarios that most games hand to you. China was the only soverign nation left, but it was also very totalitarian. Is that good or bad? Sillouette was fighting for freedom, but in the course of that fight, they killed people. If you wish to be free from the tyrany of an evil government, what freedoms would you keep to yourself? How far would you go to defend it? And just what does national sovereignty mean if your country always defers to a globalist organization? I've played this game in accordance with several different political agendas (pacificism and conservativism included), and you come across challenges any way you play. If you walked away from Deus Ex feeling that it preached a One True Ideology (TM), I think you've missed out on the very texture and poignance of Deus Ex that made it a truly revolutionary game.


Dang, great post.

MiG
22nd Oct 2003, 20:26
Originally posted by Tbone
Not that it'll do any good, but I agree -- the slogan has to go. For Eidos' apparent target market, this is going to just reek of corporate fakeness. For the more mature audience like myself, it's just tacky if not plain offensive, whether you agree or disagree with the current political situation. Remember when somebody (I believe it was Sony) wanted to register "Shock and Awe" as a trademark to be used in game marketing? Remember how well that worked out for them? Pay attention, Eidos. I don't expect you to care one whit about politics, but I do expect you not to make stupid business decisions that are easily avoidable by reading a friggin' newspaper.


On a (mostly) unrelated aside:Actually, "right wing, conservatist, gun loving, NRA forever attitudes" would probably be a pretty good description of your average NSF member. Deus Ex fell along libertarian lines far more than along conventional liberal-conservative lines. But I wouldn't really say that the game had any particular political leaning over all. What was fascinating about Deus Ex was that it brought up all of these different political perspectives, but it never told you what you were supposed to think, or forced you into answering the questions they posed in any particular way. And they didn't go easy on anyone, either. Things were never the unrealistic black-and-white scenarios that most games hand to you. China was the only soverign nation left, but it was also very totalitarian. Is that good or bad? Sillouette was fighting for freedom, but in the course of that fight, they killed people. If you wish to be free from the tyrany of an evil government, what freedoms would you keep to yourself? How far would you go to defend it? And just what does national sovereignty mean if your country always defers to a globalist organization? I've played this game in accordance with several different political agendas (pacificism and conservativism included), and you come across challenges any way you play. If you walked away from Deus Ex feeling that it preached a One True Ideology (TM), I think you've missed out on the very texture and poignance of Deus Ex that made it a truly revolutionary game.


Well... exactly!
That Deus Ex leaves you choose what to do, always asking you to pick whatever you feel is the lesser of two evils.
And the way it adapts to what you choose.
But by putting the "Future War on Terror" tagline on the box, they're suggesting that, you are buying this kinda game. Almost limiting its remit, even if the game doesn't reflect that, that is the message the tagline sends out.

forgotten
25th Oct 2003, 12:12
hi, i just registered cause i think "the futur war on terror" sounds really bad.

The argument that they should keep it cause it will bring in more cash isn't that good. Remember that deus ex was a huge, huge hit and therefore already a lot of people are going to buy IW+ its had 3-4 years to get around so there are even more people who know about it. I first played deus ex earlier this year(became my fravorite game of all time!!!). The friend who introduced it to me was playing for the first time as well and then i showed it to my cousin. The point im trying to make is the Eidos know their going to make a lot of money especially because the Doom 3 is coming out later...

The "futur war on terror" is misleading and doesn't stay true to the game...

Does anybody know if JC actually stood for Jesus Christ????

Lawnboy360
25th Oct 2003, 20:23
There was a link when they choose those initials, but it didn't make it into the game it seems.

Amazon Warrior
27th Oct 2003, 01:36
Yeah the tagline sucks more than a dyson. Possibly some reference to the nanotech/cellular aspect would be better?

Like 'Cells: the last bastion of human freedom. How will you use yours?'

OK possibly a bit daft (and long), but its pretty damn open-ended. And lacking in compulsory violence.

Or 'Four factions, one outcome. YOU decide what that will be.'

Whatever. 1.30 in the morning is not my most creative time of day. I'm sure they can employ people who are good at this sort of thing, and who could come up with something better.


Does anybody know if JC actually stood for Jesus Christ????

I wondered about that too. Especially if you choose the Helios ending, with the endnote about creating God. What is JC if not created? I still think that ending was the one the devs liked the best, then Dark age, then Illuminati.

Lawnboy360
27th Oct 2003, 02:56
Does anybody know if JC actually stood for Jesus Christ????

I wondered about that too.

What a bunch of n00bs ! :rolleyes:

;)

Interview with Harvey Smith, February 2003
http://www.insidemacgames.com/news/story.php?ArticleID=7099


We were even going to mix in religion with the first game. A lot of people don't know this but J.C. Denton was supposed to be a descendant of Jesus Christ. We were going to pick up the old theory that Jesus had kids and that J.C. Denton had DNA from Jesus.

Machinax
27th Oct 2003, 04:06
I remember reading a whole page on the religious connotations of Deus Ex, from the name of the game itself ("God from"), to JC (Jesus Christ), to Paul (JC's brother and Paul of Tarsus), Walton Simons (one of Christ's apostles), etc.

The idea that they wanted to make JC a descendant of Christ, however, is news to me.

The Grimpond
27th Oct 2003, 06:12
how about ... ummm ... Another Murder Simulator... But ONe thats better than the others?

Le`Sauveur`De`Ces`Dames
27th Oct 2003, 09:43
Originally posted by The Grimpond
how about ... ummm ... Another Murder Simulator... But ONe thats better than the others?

you mean you can kil people in DX? and in DX:IW?

wow, I'll have to try it again

Machinax
27th Oct 2003, 13:24
It's not murder. It's an ethical Machiavellian process of bringing peace and enlightenment to a dark world.

Tenkahubu
27th Oct 2003, 23:26
I think Grimpond was implying that 'Future war on terror' is so inappropriate for DX2 that it is equivalent to 'murder simulator'.
I think s/he is suggesting that if the tagline is going to try and appeal to the 'lowest common denominator' (barbaric idiots) then it might as well go the whole way and be honest about it.

Or am I wrong?

IconoclastDX
28th Oct 2003, 05:42
A keenly aldroit and penetrating analysis Tenkahubu. Continued proof that DX players should not be considered your conventional video game player.

Tenkahubu
28th Oct 2003, 12:02
Thanks very much!:D

REMF
28th Oct 2003, 13:32
the tag "Future war on terror" is good, and should appeal no matter your political view.

those who played the original will appreciate the ambiguity of the statement.

those who agree with Bush can see it as an affirmation of their views if they so wish.

those who disagree with bush should again appreciate the ambiguity of the statement.

best of all, those who agree with "the war on terror" and recognise that nastiness that that occurs when you fight fire with fire will doubly appreciate the tag-line.

the only people who will make a fuss are those who perenially get there knickers in a twist, hand-wring over semantics, and believe in the black and white world of political correctness. there seem to be rather a few here. ;)

personally i say keep it as it is, or don't have one at all.

REMF

Tenkahubu
28th Oct 2003, 19:16
What's with the insults? Are you trying to start a flame war? If so why not just got to the gamespy forums or something?

You are entitled to your opinion, but I cant understand what you mean about 'appreciating the ambiguity of the statement'. I know it can be interpreted in different ways, but I think I know how most people in my country will interpret it - in a way that misrepresents DX. I fail to see what is so good about this fact. If you want to be reasonable about it then please explain.

Machinax
28th Oct 2003, 19:38
Originally posted by REMF
the tag "Future war on terror" is good, and should appeal no matter your political view.

those who played the original will appreciate the ambiguity of the statement.

those who disagree with bush should again appreciate the ambiguity of the statement.



- it doesn't to me.

- it doesn't.

- and it doesn't.

Dr Strangelove
28th Oct 2003, 20:57
Pretty much as I said before, I don't think it actually matters so much whether or not the tagline is relevant to the game out of real world context - the the whole war on terror line immediately makes one think of what is happening in our world and I don't think DX wants or needs those connotations.

IconoclastDX
28th Oct 2003, 22:29
Actually, I could care less about Bush or the UN or whatever. Heck, I even supported the war. *dons fire retardant suit* But it makes no difference. The fact is that a tag line or slogan is supposed to tell the reader something about the produce it is describing. And the current one is simply LAME, conspicously UNORIGINAL and BLAND. NOT what we all hope the game will be.

REMF
29th Oct 2003, 01:00
Originally posted by Tenkahubu
What's with the insults? Are you trying to start a flame war? If so why not just got to the gamespy forums or something?

You are entitled to your opinion, but I cant understand what you mean about 'appreciating the ambiguity of the statement'. I know it can be interpreted in different ways, but I think I know how most people in my country will interpret it - in a way that misrepresents DX. I fail to see what is so good about this fact. If you want to be reasonable about it then please explain.

i apologise if i was too strong, but the whole "Bush is destroying the world" thing wears very thin on me.

as to the ambiguity: in DX you started off on the side of that you thought was good, as it progresses you learn that the people who on first inspection should be good, are in fact not. i thought that would appeal to those wedded to the ideology of oil-wars and military-indusrial-complexes etc.

REMF

Loki-009
29th Oct 2003, 02:59
you know the best thing about Deus ex is not just only its non linear play or its good RPG/FPS mixture but the whole story in itself is brilliant i mean its really book quality story in a video game i mean the name in itself was a brilliant choice it conveys the story well. i mean Deus Ex an exodus of gods i suppose would be a way to translate it not sure exactly but the name choice is truely interesting. I mean the exodus was the story where moses led his people out of egypt to a better life i believe that was the whole story or just about the whole story. And in Deus Ex when he combines with Helios he is the closest thing to a god on earth in a way he becomes the worlds massiah of the future trying to lead us out of a bad situation to a better future. Also i realized on the cover of deus ex it shows J.C looking up towards a light shining down from him and most people instantly think perhaps he is looking up and praying because the world is in a bad situation. but after thinking more about how the story is im thinking its more of a praising by god to signify him as a massiah as moses once was. Im not a big religous person myself but i think the use of these things really gives the whole story more depth. im really looking forward to what the guys at ion storm can do with this and that gives me all the more reason to buy their games and watch their movies and read their books whatever they come out with.

AlteredGlyph
29th Oct 2003, 04:29
Loki, that made no sense. It had nothing to do with the topic, and nothing to do with anything about DX2 in itself... In fact, why didn't you post that in the DX1 forum?

IconoclastDX
29th Oct 2003, 05:09
Ouch AlteredGlyph. Having a dense moment are we? Or maybe its just cold where you live. How bout you read Loki-009's post again, think about it for more than 3 seconds, and then tell us if Loki-009's comments make no sense and has nothing to do with the topic. If you still cant figure it out I'll be happy to enlighten you.

Le`Sauveur`De`Ces`Dames
29th Oct 2003, 08:52
about the meaning of "deus ex", I suggest you refer to either

the back of the box (if you still have it)
the internet (you should find it easily)
the thread (I think it is in the DX1 forum) where it is explained

(to sum up : Deus ex : comes from the latin Deus ex Machina, designating a theater trick where a god came on the stage from the "sky" to tell who was right and who was wrong. usually, designating someone that comes into a difficult situation to solve the problems...)

BMKane
29th Oct 2003, 20:09
Personally, I think the tagline is absurd, but I also doubt it was the product of the devs. Ion Storm prolly just wanted to monopolize on the Lowest Common Denominator(tm), that being an unfortunate majority of the world population.

Also, as a slightly related side note to all those Americans on the forums, any game that even REMOTELY seems to say that George Bush is anything but a moron who can't spell his own name is going to be recieved badly. I think it's relatively safe to say that virtually the entire world believes that George Bush has effectively destroyed any chance of people considering the U.S. in a favourable light :P

SK Denton
29th Oct 2003, 23:02
If petitions really worked, and we were actually listened to Warren wouldn't have hacked IW to pieces like he did.

And yes that terror thing has got to go.

Lawnboy360
29th Oct 2003, 23:34
Yeah, screw Warren. It's not like he's someone who's been working for years in the gaming industry and knows what he's doing. As people who know much more about game design than Warren Spector and have played through DXIW, we can make the informed judgement that DXIW is crap.

SK Denton
29th Oct 2003, 23:40
Originally posted by SK Denton
If petitions really worked, and we were actually listened to Warren wouldn't have hacked IW to pieces like he did.

And yes that terror thing has got to go.

You forgot to mention that he is God and that he can do no wrong. Sigh...

AlteredGlyph
29th Oct 2003, 23:51
SK, please... Just because a few things have changed, doesn't mean that the whole thing is going to be terrible. For all we know, it COULD actually improve the game. From all the previews that have played, they say its awesome. Warren Spector and Harvey Smith are experts in the field of game production, and I'm sure that it'll at least be wirth playing for the story. The gameplay ought to be just as fun, seeing as you have almost twice as many augs, although fewer slots, which will add to more customizability. I don't think that the tetris style inventory was good, although I would have liked to see items like a gep take up more slots than a pistol. And they have specifically said "Nothing is being dumbed down because of the Xbox." While multiple ammo types have gone, that doesn't mean you can't mod your crossbow to shoot flare darts or lethal darts, does it? Stop complaing and gain some postive feelings about this game, because this forum does not need a whiner saying that the game will be bad, we need people who give out constructive comments and criticism, not just an all around "This game sucks because its Xbox and warren spector is a dirty liar." Please stop complaining, and actually give out good reasons that can be backed up. Thank you for your time.

Edit: I forgot to metion that Warren Spector and the game developers have nothing to do with the stupid tagline, thats the people at eidos marketing, who appear to not understand the game.

Lawnboy360
29th Oct 2003, 23:58
Please stop complaining, and actually give out good reasons that can be backed up.

In other words, wait until you've played the game before complaining.

------------------------------

Edit:

DXIW isn't worthy of such a slogan anyway.
This game is.

http://image.jeuxvideo.com/images/p2/f/u/fughp2019.jpg

Sylvester Ink
30th Oct 2003, 00:09
SK, you've been posting messages like that a lot lately. Do you think that if the game was so bad that people who have played it would give it so much praise? (Testers, previewers, etc.) And besides, if DXIW DOES suck, who cares? It's not the end of the world. At least WS, HS, and the gang will have feedback for when they make DX3. And if not, there are always other games. So just relax and enjoy the anticipation!

SK Denton
30th Oct 2003, 00:15
Originally posted by AlteredGlyph
SK, please... Just because a few things have changed, doesn't mean that the whole thing is going to be terrible. For all we know, it COULD actually improve the game. From all the previews that have played, they say its awesome. Warren Spector and Harvey Smith are experts in the field of game production, and I'm sure that it'll at least be wirth playing for the story. The gameplay ought to be just as fun, seeing as you have almost twice as many augs, although fewer slots, which will add to more customizability. I don't think that the tetris style inventory was good, although I would have liked to see items like a gep take up more slots than a pistol. And they have specifically said "Nothing is being dumbed down because of the Xbox." While multiple ammo types have gone, that doesn't mean you can mod your crossbow to shoot flare darts or lethal darts, does it? Stop complaing and gain some postive feelings, because this forum does not need a whiner saying that the game will be bad, we need people who give out constructive comments and criticism, not just an all around "This game sucks because its Xbox and warren spector is a dirty liar." Please stop complaining, and actually give out good reasons that can be backed up. Thank you for your time.

Edit: I forgot to metion that Warren Spector and the game developers have nothing to do with the stupid tagline, thats the people at eidos marketing, who appear to not understand the game.

Game is shorter. Multiple replays is the only way to get any mileage out of it.

One type of ammo. Reduces gameplay decisions and varied types of gameplay ie no non-lethal ammo = I have to kill everyone or hunt for a different weapon and ammo for that weapon. Only 2 choices.

Slot inventory. Now we can carry 10 gep guns WHEEEEEEEEE!!!!

No skills. Now we are all masters of everything which means even less gameplay decisions and varied types of gameplay cause there is nothing we can't do.

Not sure about these, but I believe there is no hacking, no typing in passwords or account names. Even less gameplay decisions and varied types of play.

Basically the only decisons we have to make are whether to kill or not, what faction to join, and what augs to buy. If that is not dummbed down then I don't know what is.

SK Denton
30th Oct 2003, 00:18
Originally posted by Sylvester Ink
SK, you've been posting messages like that a lot lately. Do you think that if the game was so bad that people who have played it would give it so much praise? (Testers, previewers, etc.) And besides, if DXIW DOES suck, who cares? It's not the end of the world. At least WS, HS, and the gang will have feedback for when they make DX3. And if not, there are always other games. So just relax and enjoy the anticipation!

I hear you and agree, but everything I have read lately just makes me so mad cause I was really hyped for this game. Even bought dx:goty to get ready and everything.

Sylvester Ink
30th Oct 2003, 00:28
O_O
I am so sorry SK. But apparently you have read NOTHING about the game at all. Nor have you seen any of the preview movies. (From the preview movies alone, you can see how close to DX1 the game is.) But hey, because I am a patient guy, I will explain. Perhaps it will reassure you.

The game is only shorter if you run through and only do the required mission objectives. This means no exploring, side quests, etc. (Although it isn't SUPER short, like, let's say, Max Payne 2. ;)) If you do the side quests and stuff, the game is supposed to be at least 3 times as long as the original. Plus replay values.

Yes, only 1 type of ammo. But all the weapons have alt-fire, many of them have different fire modes. (Like tranq darts or kill-em-dead darts.) Plus the weapons can be modded. And I am sure the unified ammo system has its upsides, but I haven't played the game, so I can't describe them here.

There is a slot inventory, but you are still limited in how much you can carry, as well as how many of each item. The only difference is that there is no "tetris" organization game going.

Skills are replaced by passive biomods. They are pretty much like skills, except that instead of getting arbitrary skill points, you find the mods to upgrade. Plus there is a larger variety of biomods, so you can probably expect to see some cooler mods than "Neural Interface" (which is like the computer skill and the electronics skill.)

You can definitely hack. Or else why is there a "Neural Interface" skill. And from what I have heard, there are still passwords and all that, or how would you be able to logon to a computer and take control of a bot or check your email?

Basically, don't just look at the bad things. Look at the good things too. The developers have brought us some amazing games, like System Shock 1 and 2, Thief, and DX. I doubt that they will fail to satisfy now.

Random
30th Oct 2003, 00:40
Try to keep this on-topic, please. This thread is about the tagline, not every single thing you don't like about DX:IW.

The tagline is something we feel strongly about, so I don't want this thread to be lost to the archives because it had to be locked.

Le`Sauveur`De`Ces`Dames
30th Oct 2003, 08:50
Originally posted by Random
Try to keep this on-topic, please. This thread is about the tagline, not every single thing you don't like about DX:IW.


well, I would suggest you split it, but the new thread would have to be closed almost immediatly...

hakselsen
30th Oct 2003, 10:32
Yeah, a lot of those post don't belong here (although I'm on Sylvesters side in the debate).

I doubt very much that the tagline will be replaced/removed, even though it would be a pleasant surprise. But how do you know it's Eidos and not Ion storm who came up with it?

Le`Sauveur`De`Ces`Dames
30th Oct 2003, 11:03
because the tagline is a marketting decision. and the marketing for this game belongs to Eidos.

and becasuse the person(s) who came up with this tagline obviously didn't know a lot about the game (the boxart tends to prove that too, by the way)

Tenkahubu
30th Oct 2003, 11:19
Moreover, the idea that any of the lead designers could have come up with such an incredibly stupid slogan is just too awful to believe. I would lose all will to live.

REMF
30th Oct 2003, 16:08
Originally posted by BMKane

Also, as a slightly related side note to all those Americans on the forums, any game that even REMOTELY seems to say that George Bush is anything but a moron who can't spell his own name is going to be recieved badly. I think it's relatively safe to say that virtually the entire world believes that George Bush has effectively destroyed any chance of people considering the U.S. in a favourable light :P

you may be right, but that doesn't say much for the people that subscibe to such an emotional and non-rational view.

pandering to that view really would be playing to the lowest common demoninator, but given the prevalence of this view maybe it would be better to not have a tagline, irrespective of the intellectual merits of the one suggested.

REMF

Amazon Warrior
30th Oct 2003, 17:38
and becasuse the person(s) who came up with this tagline obviously didn't know a lot about the game (the boxart tends to prove that too, by the way)

Possible solution: anyone who has to think up a tag-line/boxart for a game should be forced to play any previous incarnations first, so they know what kind of concepts the new game will deal with.

Neutrino
30th Oct 2003, 19:42
I agree the tagline "Future War on Terror" is dreadful.. What are they thinking?

It should be removed and replaced with something else.

Loki-009
30th Oct 2003, 20:00
about the meaning of "deus ex", I suggest you refer to either

the back of the box (if you still have it)
the internet (you should find it easily)
the thread (I think it is in the DX1 forum) where it is explained

(to sum up : Deus ex : comes from the latin Deus ex Machina, designating a theater trick where a god came on the stage from the "sky" to tell who was right and who was wrong. usually, designating someone that comes into a difficult situation to solve the problems...)

Thanks for the correction on that i got my information from what i know and i do know that ex can be short for exodus and you are right i did lose my box so its good you cought me on that one. But still the meaning of the title still emplies being chosen to lead the world through tough times so atleast i wasnt wrong on the essence of the title and cover. That whole tag line thing i think doesnt make much of a difference in my oppinion it will only make the game appeal to more people then the first one. and all who played the first one will get it so i am sure the tag line will have very little if any negative effect on how the game does.
:D Peace:D

Sylvester Ink
30th Oct 2003, 20:24
Originally posted by Random
Try to keep this on-topic, please. This thread is about the tagline, not every single thing you don't like about DX:IW.

The tagline is something we feel strongly about, so I don't want this thread to be lost to the archives because it had to be locked.

Please forgive my temerity! *weeps tears of repentance* I was only doing my duty as a DX fan to reasure those who have lost faith in WS and the team! I will never do it again!
.
.
.
.
Oh, and that tagline? It sux. Change it, marketing department, or we will hunt you down and gep your [censored] all the way to Seattle.

So now this isn't OT, right?

Neutrino
30th Oct 2003, 20:47
I think the tagline is some ego satisfying prediction of future warfare that the developers gave.. Sort of like a "You heard it here first" type of thing...

Anyone who is paying attention to warfare is noticing the fact that big armies clashing and blowing each other up is not the future of resolving conflicts.. But it's the smaller, individual, specially equiped and techno augmented SPECIAL FORCES that are going to decide stuff.... Take out the top antagonizers and leave the brainwashed masses alone is the way to go.

Unfortunately conflict (Fear) often advances technology. For better or worse. Which is a shame. I would like to see positive reasons to advance technology, instead of negative ones.

It may be a correct prediction, but leave it out... It's in poor taste.

Lawnboy360
30th Oct 2003, 20:49
Back on topic.

What do you expect from a game with "War on Terror" in the tag-line?

a) A game in which you can choose your way through the game(factions), how you do it (violent or not), a game which asks questions such as "What's a terrorist?", a game with a compelling story and well-developed NPCs.

or

b) This :

http://image.jeuxvideo.com/images/p2/f/u/fughp2019.jpg

Tenkahubu
30th Oct 2003, 22:34
You should edit that photo to make the soldier have GeorgeW's face.

Now that Ion-storm has gone Republican, perhaps Arnie will play agent Hermann in the film.
I'm now getting worried about what the new conservative version of Thief3 will turn out like. Will Garrett end up being convicted? Maybe he will be turned into a black man, because all criminals are black, right?
I tried to find a quote from GeorgeW to make a tagline for the game but according to his website he hasnt said anything about crime!?!?

IconoclastDX
31st Oct 2003, 05:59
[removed racist comment -- even in jest, it's not appropriate]
Catman

BMKane
31st Oct 2003, 20:12
Originally posted by REMF
you may be right, but that doesn't say much for the people that subscibe to such an emotional and non-rational view.

pandering to that view really would be playing to the lowest common demoninator, but given the prevalence of this view maybe it would be better to not have a tagline, irrespective of the intellectual merits of the one suggested.

REMF

I was slightly joking there, though it is somewhat true. Most non-americans hate the 'States, for various reasons. Some of the more irrational ones hate it because they feel that Americans in general are bad. The more rational ones (And I like to think I fit into that category), hate its governmental policies. Trust me, though, if the 'States had elected Al Gore, they'd be considered in a much more favourable light right now...

I'm not sure games should be marketed to make more money. I mean, I know it's pretty bad in terms of business and finance, but really, think of all the games and mods that become very popular. They turn into llama magnets. For example, Counter-Strike. It's a HAVEN for morons, these days. Same with Science and Industry. It seems to me that PlanetSide's average stupidity level has risen quite a bit lately, too (Well, at least, since it left beta). DX shouldn't be made to be sold to people who wouldn't understand it, because then it causes problems.

Of course, the more people buy the game, the more money the developers get, but still...

Oh, and, I agree with Amazon. Developers should hire marketers, not publishers. Publishers have a tendancy to know very little about the games they sell :P

Sense
31st Oct 2003, 21:19
Originally posted by dirigimaster
It does suck, this is an undeniable fact.

But it's appealing to the masses, which are massively stupid. So stupid people will buy the game. With the notion of killing terrorists and seeking virtual revenge.

They'll prolly change it for Europe, the prevailing attitude there being ill favoured towards Bush and phrases he has coined.

they could make a DX parody though, DX: Evil Do-ers. In the first game you play as GH Bush, in the sequel you play as GW Bush

lol @ DX: evil doers. Could've been a funny mod...but another disappointment, there won't be an SDK.

REMF
2nd Nov 2003, 15:56
Originally posted by Tenkahubu
You should edit that photo to make the soldier have GeorgeW's face.

Now that Ion-storm has gone Republican, perhaps Arnie will play agent Hermann in the film.
I'm now getting worried about what the new conservative version of Thief3 will turn out like. Will Garrett end up being convicted? Maybe he will be turned into a black man, because all criminals are black, right?
I tried to find a quote from GeorgeW to make a tagline for the game but according to his website he hasnt said anything about crime!?!?

amusing scenario with not a jot of truth orwisdom to it.

REMF

GunGirl
4th Nov 2003, 10:51
I couldnt get any sleep and I was bored so I thought I would come on here and post! :)

I agree with alot of you about the Tag Line being Cheesy but from what I can tell, ever since 9/11 there have been ALOT of shows and things that have used 'against Terrorism' as a form of advertisement, So maybe Edios is planning to ride on the coat tails of this ever so touchy subject aswell. Like many of it's pop culture counter parts, I think it's a good way to catch peoples eye and get their attention about the game. but, I don't know what to think. But I know that they could have used something like " DX:IW - Terrorism is Bad, Let's get rid of it!" Which is just as corny but it might sell more software!...I mean, thats if they actually ARE trying to profit from our growing hatred of terrorism as a result of 9/11 and other terrorist events. I mean, if it will make them more money, go for it! All those people that have died from terrorist activities made our "war on terror" more popular right? So if it's going to make you money, take advantage of that 'popularity', I mean those people died for that, Right? (Sarcasm)

Tenkahubu
4th Nov 2003, 14:26
Not a jot of truth or wisdom! How rude!
It is perfectly true that I could not find anything on George's website about crime. If you think your searching skills are better than mine I would be very grateful if you could post a link - then I will be able to create my Thief 3 tagline and sell it to Eidos. Pretty soon I'll be working in marketing! I'm so full of ideas, how about...

System shock 3: Computers are evil.
(Xbox only release;))

edit: just doubled checked his page, something about drugs (quote:If you quit drugs, you join the fight against terror in America) but nothing about general crime and relevant to Thief.

Tassadar5000
4th Nov 2003, 14:49
Originally posted by Tenkahubu
System shock 3: Computers are evil.
(Xbox only release;))

(This forum doesn't have a laughing smiley? Thats strange. Oh well...) LOL

And...sigh....The things people complain about...:rolleyes:

Catman
4th Nov 2003, 16:55
Originally posted by Tassadar5000
This forum doesn't have a laughing smiley?You can borrow Mr. Bunny for that purpose if you'd like.
http://www.catmanofiowa.com/cps/mrbunny/laugh.gif

Le`Sauveur`De`Ces`Dames
4th Nov 2003, 16:57
by the way, Catman, I'm still waiting for Ted E Bear with a paperbag on his head, hitting himself with a baseball bat (cf Community forum)