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Simon_the_Sardine
14th Oct 2003, 04:22
My friend loves Deus Ex and just recently got me to play the game. Man have I been missing out.

I got very into the game even with its now dated graphics and physics systems. Everything from diffusing a LAM to killing the animals to listening to conversing of the gaurds.

Since most people on this forum loved the immersion factor, Deus Ex: Invisible War will be gaming Nirvana.

What do you guys think the thing that will make the most difference in immersion factor? Graphics? Physics? AI? The promise that you can be Hell of an evil character?

Also, I'd like to warn Ion and Eidos. Developers and publishers, if you ever read this thread, remember what happened to the Half-life2 source code a few weeks ago. Tighten up security and don't develope the game on a computer connected to the internet!

Thanks for listening~ :rolleyes:

Le`Sauveur`De`Ces`Dames
14th Oct 2003, 08:02
Graphics? Physics? AI? The promise that you can be Hell of an evil character?


yes, all that, and the fact you can still choose any way you want ot play, replay, and replay again, with each time a different character, and a different walkthrough (sites proposing walkthrough will have some problems here to be exhaustive)


Originally posted by Simon_the_Sardine

Also, I'd like to warn Ion and Eidos. Developers and publishers, if you ever read this thread, remember what happened to the Half-life2 source code a few weeks ago. Tighten up security and don't develope the game on a computer connected to the internet!

Thanks for listening~ :rolleyes:

hmmm I'm sure they did. (I hope they did)

Trollslayer
14th Oct 2003, 08:53
Originally posted by Simon_the_Sardine
What do you guys think the thing that will make the most difference in immersion factor? Graphics? Physics? AI? The promise that you can be Hell of an evil character?

Evil? I doubt that'll be in. The ability to decide what to do in key instances, now thats a different thing.


Also, I'd like to warn Ion and Eidos. Developers and publishers, if you ever read this thread, remember what happened to the Half-life2 source code a few weeks ago. Tighten up security and don't develope the game on a computer connected to the internet!

Thanks for listening~ :rolleyes:

Im sure they don't need to be told that, every company is aware of this.

Le`Sauveur`De`Ces`Dames
14th Oct 2003, 09:40
Evil? I doubt that'll be in. The ability to decide what to do in key instances, now thats a different thing.

hmmm I'm sure you still can shoot the old ladies and beat the kids...

"and THAT, my friend, is a dark side" (When Harry met Sally)

Trollslayer
14th Oct 2003, 11:06
Originally posted by Le`Sauveur`De`Ces`Dames
hmmm I'm sure you still can shoot the old ladies and beat the kids...

"and THAT, my friend, is a dark side" (When Harry met Sally)

The problem with that is that you and i look at it and consider it evil, but the game isn't registering it. What's the point of being able to do it if everyone treats you the same or there aren't consequences? Im hoping there will be consequences to that kind of action, but usually when we "shoot the old ladies and beat the kids", the only "evil" going on is what we consider it to be - the game doesn't care much, if anything. Example in DX1 - we could choose not to give any food to the little munchkins in Castle Clinton's vicinity. Except a visible reward in the form of door codes, that was evil. It was evil because we let street urchins go hungry for the night. The question is, did anyone cared for it? Did the game made it hard for you because you were 'evil'? No. Which is unfortunate. Being good and evil carries a certain reputation with it, with variations of people's reactions. The problem is that DX tends to present you with uncertain moral questions, its never black or white, its usually a big grey area. If all actions you make can be consider good or evil depending on how you see things, you aren't being good or evil, you're just playing it your way. The example of Lucius DeBeers, for one, is grey. Killing him to end his pain or letting him stay there is neither good or evil. For us to be evil, we have to do things which are considered evil by the game's NPCs. In turn the game's NPCs should have a system which tracked your good/evil actions, and their amount, so interaction with them was changed according to how good/evil you were.

Le`Sauveur`De`Ces`Dames
14th Oct 2003, 11:57
this could be done via a "reputation" counter, like it has been done in other RPG. the problem is, you have to balance the reputation considering 2 facts :
if nobody saw you doing something, it shouldn't be counted ( a lot of RPG seem to forget this basic truth), unless there are proofs you were involved in it
your reputation should be dependant of the area you are in : a guy in hong kong shouldn't know what you did in New York, unless he works with an organisation that know what you did there. (especially if the organisation knows you are here.)

which brings us back, by the way, to the fact that the AI should adapt to the way you play.

not only about your reputation, but also the way you fulfill your missions (I think I said that in another thread)

which, re-reading what I just wrote, means I agree with you

coldblue
14th Oct 2003, 13:51
Not feeding the kids? Try killing them! My buddy did it, the first time he played. He was holding the knife and the kid was coming up to him and he hit "attack" and *blap* there goes the kid.

Another time he killed everyone at the night club in HK. I myself have deliberately cleared out the marketplace (police, bots and all) in HK.

There are really no consequences to any of these actions other than the shock of seeing a little polygon kid dying in a pool of his own blood.

I guess that's what I now dislike most about the original DX, that there's only a thin facade of interactivity and consequences - beyond that, you can do whatever you want and get away with it. They just try and "scare" you away from doing it by having a few of the obvious ones (like going into the women's bathroom) get noticed. It worked the first time I played, but not so well the second, third, fourth, fifth, etc. Obviously, the devs in the first game didn't imagine that people would try to kill anything that moved, massacre an entire level, etc.

From what I've heard about the playtesting (like where they had a guy play through the game setting fire to everything) it looks like they're paying more attention to stuff like this in DX2. I hope so. Nothing kills your immersion in the game faster than taking out a marketplace full of people, then walking into Tracer Tong's compound and going "so what's my next mission?" like nothing happened.

(btw, I'm not sick or twisted. I was bored.)

Random
14th Oct 2003, 14:47
Do you think you should be punished for killing everyone, though? If you kill a civilian, cops who see you will come for you; if you kill the cops, why should you be punished further? It's your choice, and the game should let you do it if you want. Killing everyone and having an unpopulated and therefore boring world is punishment enough, and probably enough to make you reload an old save. ;)

The problem with DX was that not everyone was killable. Invincible NPCs were a problem, and trying to kill them broke the game's systems. That's being fixed in DX2, but they'll use other methods to stop you killing some plot-specific characters, apparently, like inpenetrable glass and weapons-free zones.

Le`Sauveur`De`Ces`Dames
14th Oct 2003, 15:17
Originally posted by Random
[B]Do you think you should be punished for killing everyone, though? If you kill a civilian, cops who see you will come for you; if you kill the cops, why should you be punished further?

because it usually works so in real life?


It's your choice, and the game should let you do it if you want. Killing everyone and having an unpopulated and therefore boring world is punishment enough, and probably enough to make you reload an old save. ;)

true but still unrealistic. we were talking about the fact that the AI isn't reacting logically to your actions. in ral life, if you kill the cops, and everyone in a game zone
1) other cops, usually better equiped, come after you
2) people who are dealing with you tend to be less willing to do so, considering that a) you act like a psychopath and b) it would attract too much attention to them (If I understood correctly, the different factions from the game usually have hidden agendas of their own, and might want to keep them private and not to draw too much attention from the autorities)

Random
14th Oct 2003, 15:41
But do you think it should be like GTA3 with wave after wave of cops coming after you until you die? I think if you want to be a murdering psychopath you should be able to be one and still advance the plot.

Sure, NPCs should acknowledge it, but ideally I don't think the player should be punished for being ultra-violent when the point of the game is player choice.

Since DX2 has multiple factions, maybe being a psychopath could bar you from allying with one or two, but you should be able to finish the game. Otherwise, you might as well make everyone invincible ...

Trollslayer
14th Oct 2003, 15:58
Originally posted by Random
But do you think it should be like GTA3 with wave after wave of cops coming after you until you die?

That is out of DX:IW's scope. Its gameplay is not like GTA and shouldn't try to be, by doing things like that. But there should be an obvious punishment. I mean, as part of a peace-keeping organisation of sorts, you shouldn't, by your murderous actions, associate your task force with civilian slaughter. Unless of course you want the slogan of your organisation to change from "Protecting the innocents from the terrorism of tomorrow" to Protecting the innocents we slaughter from the terrorism of tomorrow".


I think if you want to be a murdering psychopath you should be able to be one and still advance the plot.

See, the point is not to prevent gamers from finishing the game or making it so the game in unfinishable just because you killed many people. The point is to change NPC interaction, change their views of you, and limit some of your choices and rewards - and even open up other sets of possibilities and rewards, depending on what you do. After all, different people will react to different things differently. I mean, many games have evolved beyond static gameworlds. There isn't a point to giving you freedom of choice if you don't want to accept the burden of consequence.


Sure, NPCs should acknowledge it, but ideally I don't think the player should be punished for being ultra-violent when the point of the game is player choice.

The game is not just about choice, its about a consequence (or set of consequences) to go with the choices. Not only is this visible, Warren has sad this time and again. You're free to make choices, but you have to bear in mind the consequences they bring. Like real life.

Coyote
14th Oct 2003, 16:11
quote:
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Originally posted by Simon_the_Sardine
What do you guys think the thing that will make the most difference in immersion factor? Graphics? Physics? AI? The promise that you can be Hell of an evil character?
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1) For me it's the ability to solve problems/accomplish objects in different ways: using force, stealth, or intelligence (gathering data from different sources and putting it best use).

Instead of being forced to solve a problem in someone else's (developer) pre-defined way, I know with this game I can successfully seek another solution.

For me, it sort of brings a sence of creativity. And solving problems w/some creativity is much more rewarding than just finally figuring out how jump thru the hoops in a predefined linear fashion.

2) The story line needs to substantial - not just blasting my way thru aliens or bad guys (ex. HL or UT) who are there for an inexplicable reason. Tie-ing the story line into something that's real, or at least plausibly debatable like templar Knights, M12 and other such historical/conspiratorical themes makes it seem worthwhile when their motive are uncovered etc.

3) I immensly enjoyed visiting places where I've actually lived, like Paris and New York - and recognizing them! If I ever visit Hong Kong I actually expect to recognize parts of it too.

4) Tactical/strategic challenges in choosing how your character developes - I used to agonize over enhances and upgrades-should I broaden abilities, strengthen existing ones or seeking synergies so that the whole is greater than the sum of the parts. In ways like we must personally do in our lives.

I'll know the developers got it right if again I depair a bit when I sence the end and feel downright depressed when I'm finished. Instead of getting depressed when I feel I've got to finish it just cuz I paid good money for it .

coldblue
14th Oct 2003, 19:09
Originally posted by Random
Do you think you should be punished for killing everyone, though? If you kill a civilian, cops who see you will come for you; if you kill the cops, why should you be punished further? It's your choice, and the game should let you do it if you want. Killing everyone and having an unpopulated and therefore boring world is punishment enough, and probably enough to make you reload an old save. ;)


Well for starters, I would expect Tracer Tong to at least MENTION the fact that I just slaughtered dozens of the locals. Maybe it would color our relationship some, hmm? Besides, I'm sure I killed some Luminous Path peeps in the process. That should make him angry.

I'm not saying every action should be punished, just that every action should have realistic repercussions.

Dr Strangelove
20th Oct 2003, 20:17
Giving every action consequences like this has got to be the holy grail for any game aiming for immersion and a degree of realism, but with so many possibilities it is always hard. I don't think Deus Ex made too bad of a job of it in many ways - for instance I remember a policeman in Paris attacking me when he caught me picking a lock - but of course it was far from perfect.

Hopefully Deus Ex 2 will be able to do this even more with more technology and budget. I think touches like making excuses for unkillable characters instead of just making them invulnerable (to name one I have heard about) should all be good towards a greater felling of realism and thus immersion.

Tenkahubu
21st Oct 2003, 12:07
Maybe I'm weird, but I never really thought of playing DX as a psycopathic maniac who killed everyone. If that was what I wanted to do there are plenty of other games out there which would satisfy my bloodlust.
OK, ideally DX2 would allow for every style of play, but realistically that means that it has to combine every type of game on the market in one. Of all possible play styles, mindless killing is one that I personally will not miss.

Xenon
21st Oct 2003, 14:32
Talking about consequences, DX often lacked consequences of thievery. Moreover the ONLY source of money after UNATCO was thievery or, at most, looting bodies or picking up lost credit chits.
You could pick a lock to one of the side offices in front of a UNATCO officer or you could just take someone's belongings, and the worst you could expect was a verbal response like "I don't really understand what you are doing".
The Paris police and VersaLife labs security were rather an exception than a rule.
Such situations could break an immersion, so, I hope they will be handled properly in IW (and this is within capabilities, I think).

And the ultimate goal is to make you feel guilty for whatever you could feel guilty in reality, isn't it ?

Le`Sauveur`De`Ces`Dames
21st Oct 2003, 14:52
in the same range, the fact that you can hack into Manderley's computer with him being sitting right in front of you and get nothing more than "what exactly do you think you are doing?" would be a little disappointing. in Maggie chow's appartment, at least, when you hack into maggie's computer, the chambermaid starts shooting at you, if I remember correctly

gareis
21st Oct 2003, 15:47
The best solution for that problem would have been the computer in Alex's office. Since he's the sysadmin for all of UNATCO, he would have the ability to log on to any account, but I tried Manderley's login and password on his computer to no avail.

In real life, what would Manderley have done? The offense could be considered treasonous, but it isn't bad enough to warrant bringing in troops to kill JC. Perhaps he could dock your pay. Or, if you stay on his computer after he told you to stop, he might throw you in the cells for insubordination.