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auric
8th Oct 2003, 12:49
I mean, an augmented agent, trained to kill & sneak. Got bunch of augmentations including increase of hand to hand weaponry.

But why can't he swing his arm, when he has no weapons?

I know trying to punch in a dream is very hard, every time I try, my real hands start to move & I woke up. "Darn" I always wondered whether I got hit him or not.

But this is a game, 1 click is sufficiant. Or maybe hold down the button to buildup energy to really whack someone few feets away. Hey he is augmented right, I'm so sure they can hit or throw someone far away.

Anyway, what I mean is, is there a punch action in DX2?

If so, it be nice to have it a stunning hit or a killing blow, FOC

No clips to worry about or having to find a baton.

Le`Sauveur`De`Ces`Dames
8th Oct 2003, 13:11
when I read this topic, I tried to find he last one on this subject. it must have been too old, and has disappeared.

so let's sum up

I agree with you, punching would be a great addition to the game, and a nona-augmented agent should be able to KO his opponents easily, and the fact you don't have to carry a weapon would be great. (now Trollslayer is going to argue... hehehe, I saw him first)

but no, we don't know if it will be implemented

auric
8th Oct 2003, 13:34
Too bad, hope to hear that they are planning on it.


Why you said Trolslayers going to argue?
& what u mean u saw him.

Le`Sauveur`De`Ces`Dames
8th Oct 2003, 13:59
hmmm Trollslayer and I had a discussion on this very topic, a long one. both of us having given our ideas on the subject, we still disagree, but politely.

(and I saw IT first, forgive my bad english, I was speaking of the topic)

/*Edit : I have found the topic, though it isn't either in the forum nore in the archives : there (http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=18505) */

auric
8th Oct 2003, 14:14
Hi, hope you're still there, do you know how to use the cheats in DX 1.

I know how to give full skill points but, I don't know how to get the augs that I want, I want to try to play the game as a super agent.

Like able to see through walls at lvl 1.

Thanks

Le`Sauveur`De`Ces`Dames
8th Oct 2003, 14:17
Catman explained how to use it in one of the thread of the DX1 forum

to find the codes, try planetdeusex.com, I think they have it

Random
8th Oct 2003, 14:18
We haven't heard anything about punching and I assume it's not a feature. It might have a lot to do with game balancing, in regards to inventory slots; i.e. if you go the melee route you do not have to carry around any weapons, allowing you to carry many more items. That's only a guess, though.

If you want to kill people without weapons, though, invest in the strength biomod: it allows you to pick up heavy objects and fling them at the enemies, knocking them out. :D

auric
8th Oct 2003, 15:45
Le`Sauveur`De`Ces`Dames

I check almost every where & theres no sign of how to get aug upgrade canisters. But I remember I use to get them before, so how come all the sites don't have it?

It like the cheat for it just vanish.

Trollslayer
8th Oct 2003, 18:31
Not this again...

I won't argue, specially because i've been having a hell of a week and the slightest thing can set me off. I specially don't want to get into more fights than the ones i've been with people these last days.

Summary:

Punching shouldn't be included because:

>It doesn't fit with the overall gameplay of the game.
>It does not allow for silent takedowns with punching. Remember, its punching, you're using your hands. The only ways you can make a silent takedown with punching is if your hands hit body-disabling parts - ear lobes, throat, back of the head, etc. And the game does not present this type of detail. Very good ragdoll physics? Yes. Damage point allocation so microscopic that it handles enemies' inner ear, or pressure sensitive spots? No (and thank god it doesn't).
>Your hands aren't effective against armoured people and/or mechs. Your weapons, on the other hand, are.
>The AI has many bells and whistles. Its shaping up to be fairly realistic, so taking that into account, an enemy would not engage in a melee brawl with you when he has access to firearms. Even in real life, you won't see someone drop their weapons in order to engage in melee combat. I mean police officers certainly won't do it, and you're close to one in DX:IW. But it really is about how well it would translate with a very belieavable AI - no enemy in their right state of mind would drop his weapons to engage in melee with you.
>There is no point to adding a combat function which has negligible damage output, specially when there are other alternatives like knives, batons and stunning weapons, which produce similar (if not exactly equal, or even superior) effects.

Or i can use the cheap way out.

All the reports on previews until now do not include punching. Since the game seems to be quite complete, it won't be in, so asking for it is a moot point.

Start countering those points, Le`Sauveur`De`Ces`Dames :D

auric
8th Oct 2003, 21:16
I've read your past posts about this subject, & I don't see what's so hard to believe about including punching in a game.

1. like all weapons have their ups & downs, that is why they are made fr, to handle certain situations. But in it all begins with our bare hands & feet, in the old days when knifes & guns are but non existant, we use our bare hands to fight & it proves very effective against other organic targets. Of course like u say there are resistance, but so what everything have resistance. All we need to do is either hit harder or more rapidly. To overcome the resistance.

2. You'd be surprise what hands can do, lie rendering wood or rocks in to dusts. knocking out the most strongest man down with a finger, etc. etc. but in a game's case it just a punch & punching alone can be very effective too, it is a life saver for those who can't afford a weapon.

3. & isn't that the point, getting close to the target from the back & hitting them, I've done it all the time, taking out armies slowly 1 by 1, with a baton. Effective in killing, wel a Gep Gun is the most effective way of killing but you don't see people using it all the time especially to kill mere people. It is all a matter of choice & decision of what weapon to use on what target.

4. Like I said, no one is asking you to hit someone with armor with our hands, think before you hit. That's is the most obvious example of not using hands, & everyone knows that also.
But that doesn't stop people from trying, some people still go ahead & hit something even though they knew perfectly well it is futile, but then again who wants to give up without a fight. Unless theres another way.

5. & no one is asing someone to drop their guns to fight hth, let them have their guns. We can still run swiftly towards the enemy & knock them down as hard as a fist full of bullets piled up together.

Even nowadays, with all the technology & weaponrys, the mind,body & soul is still considered the most dangerous weapons of all. That doesn't mean we can tear up a tank with out bare hands, but it is the most effective weapons when used properly. There are some people do drop their guns & say,
"Come on give me your best shot."

So from what you're saying is, if you got no weapons & the enemies do, then you're just going to tie your hands at the back & surrender. is that is? I've seen many movies of people with no weapons taking on the odds that do have weapons. its a matter of challenge & tactics used.

I hope I'm not offending you in any way but I want to ask you.

Did something happen to you in the past which involves punching? Which leads you to be so defensive about using hands in a game. Like did you hit something hard or something. If so, I'm sure nearly all of us have experianced the same thing, either hitting something hard on purpose or by accident. I know i have. but that's no reason for excluding it from games.

Again no offense intended, just curious.

PS: but I'm no cat ;)

Anyway, if you're really that against punching in the game, then don't use it. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean you should prevent others from trying it themselves. Its our choice if we want to smack someone in the head or slice of their throat or make bunch of tiny holes in their face or just 1 big hole where they're were standing.

:)

Trollslayer
8th Oct 2003, 22:05
Originally posted by auric
I've read your past posts about this subject, & I don't see what's so hard to believe about including punching in a game.

I don't think its hard, or unbelievable to include punching in a game. Its been done before. I just think that there are better things to consider including in DX:IW.


1. like all weapons have their ups & downs, that is why they are made fr, to handle certain situations. But in it all begins with our bare hands & feet, in the old days when knifes & guns are but non existant, we use our bare hands to fight

And then we got something more effective - guns. I prefer the tradition and skill of the sword - but i'd be crazy if i'd say it was more effective than a pistol.


& it proves very effective against other organic targets.

Correction: it proves very effective against other non-protected organic targets. Punching someone with a helmet and kevlar vest isn't exactly effective, unless the plan is to injure your hand.


Of course like u say there are resistance, but so what everything have resistance. All we need to do is either hit harder or more rapidly. To overcome the resistance.

Consider this when you're up against an unprotected organic target.

>Not all people go down with one punch.
>Nothing prevents them from screaming, thus alerting other people nearby.
>Punching is not an effective silent non-lethal takedown. Recovering from the effects of a punch take much less time than recovering from a tranquilizer dart.
>If multiple targets are alerted they won't be as easy to subdue as if they'd be if taken one by one.

Counter point:

>There could be neck snaps, or agressive frontal blows to nose or throat, or even the afformentioned attacks on ears, causing a disabling effect on a person's inner ear.

>Counter counter point:

>Yes there could, but why bog down the game with such elements for one of the "weapons" of the game, when pure punching (or any other alternative to it), provide better, faster, and more entertaining results? We could be given a punching/karate/deathblow simulator to win over enemies using our bare hands - or we could be given DX:IW still this year.


2. You'd be surprise what hands can do, lie rendering wood or rocks in to dusts, knocking out the most strongest man down with a finger, etc. etc. .

Nothing suggests Alex is a martial arts expert. Those kinds of feats aren't used by everyone. Otherwise we's have Mortal Kombat re-runs everyday out on the streets.


but in a game's case it just a punch & punching alone can be very effective too, it is a life saver for those who can't afford a weapon.

Thats true, but the problem is while we can find ourselves without being able to afford a gun in the game, that won't happen with the enemies.


3. & isn't that the point, getting close to the target from the back & hitting them, I've done it all the time, taking out armies slowly 1 by 1, with a baton. Effective in killing, wel a Gep Gun is the most effective way of killing but you don't see people using it all the time especially to kill mere people. It is all a matter of choice & decision of what weapon to use on what target.

A hand to the back of the head is not as effetive as a baton. This is true for both unprotected and protected targets.


4. Like I said, no one is asking you to hit someone with armor with our hands, think before you hit. That's is the most obvious example of not using hands, & everyone knows that also.
But that doesn't stop people from trying, some people still go ahead & hit something even though they knew perfectly well it is futile, but then again who wants to give up without a fight.

Well if people know their punches won't solve anything but still, given the odds, decide to try it anyway, they're not the brightest pickles in the jar. If in the middle of something like that a person can't evaluate risks, they should stop trying altogether. Same in a game situation. Of course we have a Load Game option, but even still, its not a substitute for poor judgement.


Unless theres another way.

Weapons.


5. & no one is asing someone to drop their guns to fight hth, let them have their guns. We can still run swiftly towards the enemy & knock them down as hard as a fist full of bullets piled up together.

Thats true no one is asking them to drop their weapons for HtH. Which obviously begs the inevitable question - if they aren't doing it, why should we? I mean, if its a given they won't stop shooting when you're punching them, then there isn't a point. There is neither fun, or advantage, to stand their shelling out minimal damage to someone who is pumping you full of lead or plasma (or rockets, for that matter). So the point of using hands, again, becomes nothing more than a little addition to your weapons arsenal, which you'll rarely use, because it doesn't cut it. This isn't saying some people won't have fun standing there being shot, but not all people find that fun...


Even nowadays, with all the technology & weaponrys, the mind,body & soul is still considered the most dangerous weapons of all.

Strangely, they seem to fail against a .44 at pointblank...


That doesn't mean we can tear up a tank with out bare hands, but it is the most effective weapons when used properly. There are some people do drop their guns & say,
"Come on give me your best shot."

And this type of reaction from others is not what armed terrorrists would do (which incidentally, are crawling up the wazoo in the game).


So from what you're saying is, if you got no weapons & the enemies do, then you're just going to tie your hands at the back & surrender. is that is?

No. Im saying there are many ways to deal with enemies, ways that dont require dead giveaways of where you are - punching isn't subtle. If a bullet, which as we know, can be deadly, does not have a 100% certainty of killing someone, how would a fist?

Think back to how many weapons you had in DX. Think of how many ways you had to avoid enemy contact. Think of skills and augmentations. Even a person going in guns-blazing would have plenty of ammo and/or weapons to go around. Ammo was everywhere. In the middle parts of the game Assault Rifles were a standard commodity. Even in the event of being caught without ammo, you still had melee weapons, the crossbow, and grenades. Even if you were completely out of ammo and weapons (which would be strange unless you threw away knives and crowbars on purpose, which is not a very wise thing to do), you'd still had augmentations to get you by.

If, in the event of you completely having no means whatsoever of combat... well, you'd still have your legs :p


I've seen many movies of people with no weapons taking on the odds that do have weapons. its a matter of challenge & tactics used.

Movies aren't the same as reality and aren't the same as games. In a game, Neo can do wire-fu all he want. In a game, the enemies would probably just go "WTH?".

Also i'm reminded of that scene in Indiana Jones where Indy just smirks and fires his pistol at the sword-wielding tuareg. That scene perfectly depicts my thoughts on punching in DX:IW. Imagine the sword-wielder as Alex (only using fists), and Indy as a terrorist.


I hope I'm not offending you in any way but I want to ask you.

Did something happen to you in the past which involves punching? Which leads you to be so defensive about using hands in a game. Like did you hit something hard or something. If so, I'm sure nearly all of us have experianced the same thing, either hitting something hard on purpose or by accident. I know i have. but that's no reason for excluding it from games.

No, not really. Though i'm a pacifist of sorts, i have nothing against punching, whatever the form, virtual or real. I've never been punched. I also don't have anything against boxing, even if i consider it rather pointless and over-glorified. I personally don't consider punching anything i'd avoid or use; im sure there might be some occasions where i might have to decide using it or not, but it really doesn't lure me to the dark side or anything. Violence in itself is pointless, and just an extreme mean to an end. Thankfully i've never needed it to reach my ends.


Again no offense intended, just curious.

None taken.


Anyway, if you're really that against punching in the game, then don't use it. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean you should prevent others from trying it themselves. Its our choice if we want to smack someone in the head or slice of their throat or make bunch of tiny holes in their face or just 1 big hole where they're were standing.

:)

I don't really care if its in the game or not. Neither do i care if others use it or not. I just think i have a set of valuable reasons as to why punching really doesn't add to the DX experience - just as Le Sauveur de Ces Dames has his set of valuable reasons as to why it should. I just think other things could be done instead of punching. Specially in a game that revolves around stealth, whereas punching is too hit and miss (no pun intended) when it comes to providing a 100% way of effective silent non-lethal takedowns.

Now, more non-lethal weapons, that's the ticket for me.

TheDerf
8th Oct 2003, 22:19
Did something happen to you in the past which involves punching?
He said he was in a bad mood, plus this was a topic already heavily discussed in another, identical thread.

Do you honestly think you're gonna go around punching people when you have so many other weapons at your disposal? Everything, with the exception of pepper spray, is more effective than punching, leaving a large number of weapons put in the game for a reason "untouched" if you do plan on going about DX2 punching so much.

So why punch?

"It adds to the realism." and my response to that (quoted in another thread from some guy... I think it was Random) "Realism is not a gameplay factor."

"It's just plain fun." Agreed, but not in an FPS situation where punching can only go so far. You're most likely going to see the same effects for every punch you throw (guy bending backward, guy bending forward), and just because of that, I'd say punching in this game sucks.

This kind of ties in with the dual pistols thread. I do want dual pistols in the game because it fits the way I do things: slow-paced, stealthy, quiet, patient, and it's just plain fun. Punching, though, you'd probably say belongs to the Rambo type gamers, right? So it belongs in the game to satisfy them yes? Of course, but now what do the developers have to put up with?

You gotta draw the fist(s) and punches in the first person and animate them, draw a guy in third person throwing several punches and animate him, set damage values, set range values, probably include blocking which is basically punching x2, draw your arms blocking in the first person, set camera swings for being hit by a punch in the first person, animate a guy getting hit in all different areas (or just two, like I mentioned earlier), collect a whole archive of punching sounds, draw in real time physics what would happen to an object(s) should you punch them, make another chapter in the melee AI, change the course of the game somewhat, etc. I can't think of any more.

"Durrrr, you'd have to go through all of that with dual pistols, and they aren't useful."
Dual pistols wouldn't be nearly that much trouble to include. Mirror images/animations, double clip size, set inventory size, draw them lying on the ground, a little programming... Bam! You got dual pistols.

After knowing the developers would have to go through that just to put something you aren't going to use that much anyway into a game, do you still feel right having punching? Really, it has zero tactical advantage over a baton, or any other melee weapon for that matter.

auric
8th Oct 2003, 23:09
From what I can see, you're making judgements based on thinking everyone should think like you.

Everyone got their own ideas of a proper weapon or traditional weapons. If you go to japan & claim a broadsword is more traditional then their Katanas, you'd might get your head cut off more faster then you could lift up your broadsword first.

Not everything is based on a single judgement, just because u got Kevlar or Helmet doesn't mean your protected, people still can damage people even with armor on. Your refering it like a old fashion game, as in got armor means hand no damage, no armor then hand can damage. That's not how things work around both in current games & realife.

That's what the [old 1 - 2] is about, why punch once, continue hitting till he falls, & about shoutings, I've made a gun shot & notice that the NSF from supposedly hearing distance, didn't even react.

I wasn't refering to martial arts, those people I mentioned, they are normal people with no "arts" in them.

If you say people choosing to punch then guns then they aren't the brightest pickle, you are aware you're only insulting someone for something you can't do yourself.

you can't go around offending people's choices & desires to do things their way no matter how far fetching it may be.

Just because you want to do things the easy & short way, then that's your choice, but you don't have to go talking like as if you don't do it then others shouldn't do it.

Its like between a Warrior & a Sorceror, the Sorceror wil see pointless need to carry around a heavy weapon, while the Warrior might think the Sorceror is a coward. All this are depending on how people want to live their lives & fight the way they do.

You want to talk about efficiency in killing, then why not use GEP gun all the way, If I'm not mistaken that can track & it can kill almost anything in 1 shot. If u mean ammo depletion, then cheat. The main reason people other then straight killers don't do this is because its tactless, skilless, & mindless violence, etc.

Another example the way you think others should follow your ideals. People "if they aren't doing it, why should we?"
we? why do you think people will follow how you want to do things the way you want it.

"Strangely, they seem to fail against a .44 at pointblank... "

That's because that person is crazily running in front of the line of fire. You see you're not trying to understand what is being mentioned, you just want to uphold your views when you yourself know it is not all right.

Of course when I said that about mind, body & soul. Ofcourse I didn't ment run through the guns blazing.

Here's another part you may have ignored, I said when "no weapons at all" but you went on thinking a bullet is better, yeah its better but it be no use when theres no pistol or no bullets. Don't you get what people are trying to say. We're not saying its the ultimate weapon, we're just saying it is useful in some ways, of new ways of approaching to things.

I can see why you had such behavior towards it then. But isn't using guns the same way of promoting violence as well? Actually its much worst.

No offenses again, most of what is written could be insulting too. I'm just answering as I go, step by step.

Anyway, now you have made your point in your view of punching, let others have their own views, theres no point in counterdicting people's desires. By constantly doing so, won't help you in anyway. Just be glad to have voiced out.

PS: even a person with a type 3 disruptor gun, can fail towards an unarmed man. :)

auric
8th Oct 2003, 23:17
Originally posted by TheDerf
[B]"It adds to the realism." and my response to that (quoted in another thread from some guy... I think it was Random) "Realism is not a gameplay factor."

"It's just plain fun." B]

Then your missing the real fun of games.

Just plain fun isn't enough, after all the hard work put in by the designers, all the stories & etc. & you're just going to ignore them all, then it is all created in vain.

If plain fun is all that matters, then they should just make more games like Quake [pointless & mindless killing "just for fun"], which is what some wants, but others wants games like Deus Ex, where plain fun alone is insuufficient.

Our future needs people to think too as well as have fun, if just fun only then our future is pretty gloomy if you ask me. Because all they will care about is "fun"

:)

TheDerf
8th Oct 2003, 23:54
Not everything is based on a single judgement, just because u got Kevlar or Helmet doesn't mean your protected, people still can damage people even with armor on.What do you sugest then? Punching limbs?:eek: It screams innovation!:rolleyes:
you can't go around offending people's choices & desires to do things their way no matter how far fetching it may be.If you want to take offense to critique, don't blame us for how you feel.
You want to talk about efficiency in killing, then why not use GEP gun all the way, If I'm not mistaken that can track & it can kill almost anything in 1 shot. If u mean ammo depletion, then cheat. The main reason people other then straight killers don't do this is because its tactless, skilless, & mindless violence, etc.Guy, cheating isn't the right way to beat games, unless the game is unbeatable. "Straight killers" don't do this because using your hands over a rocket launcher is less costly, less sloppy, easily concealed and controlled, and more quiet. Every reason given there is already covered by the Deus Ex world.
Don't you get what people are trying to say. We're not saying its the ultimate weapon, we're just saying it is useful in some ways, of new ways of approaching to things.Look, I'd be all for punching if Ion Storm didn't have a deadline to hit. The whole concept is too miniscule to even care about. In fact, if it were added to Deus Ex, the only part of the game it might remotely affect is the MJ12 prison escape, but even then, a baton and riot prod were still handy. However, that doesn't justify incorporating it with DX2, because Ion Storm could have a terrific, detail-sensitive plot laid out for us that might be corrupted if punching was going to be added.

Anyway, if Ion Storm misses this Christmas deadline and a **** load of cash earned in developing this game due to punching, I'm gonna be mad.
your missing the real fun of games.Games are meant to be fun. There would be no point in playing them otherwise, unless they were educational. The "the hard work put in by the designers, all the stories & etc." adds up to the game being fun. If Deus Ex wasn't fun, you wouldn't play it. Admit that.

Would it be fun for you struggling to take down an opponent with just your hands, just to die a few seconds later having not saved for two hours knowing that you could've used a GEP gun of all things you had handy? Me neither.

Trollslayer
9th Oct 2003, 00:10
Originally posted by auric
From what I can see, you're making judgements based on thinking everyone should think like you.

Lets NOT start with this kind of behaviour shall we? First you ask my opinion, then im forcing others to think like me? Hardly.


Everyone got their own ideas of a proper weapon or traditional weapons. If you go to japan & claim a broadsword is more traditional then their Katanas, you'd might get your head cut off more faster then you could lift up your broadsword first.

Good point. What does it have to do with what i said, though?


Not everything is based on a single judgement, just because u got Kevlar or Helmet doesn't mean your protected, people still can damage people even with armor on. Your refering it like a old fashion game, as in got armor means hand no damage, no armor then hand can damage. That's not how things work around both in current games & realife.

Right. Try this - go punch someone's torso while they're wearing a kevlar vest. Also have someone wear a standard riot helmet, and punch their head. Then tell me how it feels. It hurts, and won't bring the person down automatically - that's real life for you.


I wasn't refering to martial arts, those people I mentioned, they are normal people with no "arts" in them.

Well guess i never met normal people that could break rocks with their bare hands. Just my bad luck, i'll wager.


If you say people choosing to punch then guns then they aren't the brightest pickle, you are aware you're only insulting someone for something you can't do yourself.

Ah the supposed witticism due to misunderstanding of what i say.

Lets repeat this for those with misunderstanding problems. This was what you said:


Originally posted by auric
But that doesn't stop people from trying, some people still go ahead & hit something even though they knew perfectly well it is futile

To which i responded:


Originally posted by Trollslayer
Well if people know their punches won't solve anything but still, given the odds, decide to try it anyway, they're not the brightest pickles in the jar.

Now, everyone can do this. Thats obvious. But if you claim i'm lacking in intelligence because i won't use my fists against guns... then i'm sorry but its clear who made the mistake here, and it wasn't me. If a person tries to fight HtH with someone that is using a gun, the person is stupid, or has a deathwish. Theres nothing else to be said on that matter, its a fact. Not even specially trained police agents go unarmed against someone using a gun, for that matter. So, no. I stand corrected in what i said. In fact, i can't see what your problem is. You said yourself that a person could, despite the odds, do something like that. Placing yourself in mortal danger despite the odds *is* a stupid thing to do.

Let me try and simplify this... BULLETS KILLS, FISTS DON'T (and for those of you who fear i'm losing my mind, i know a well-applied punch *can* kill, but the probability of it killing is much lesser than a bullet - however i'm sure you know, from reading this, why i avoided the use of the word 'probability' in the simplification)


you can't go around offending people's choices & desires to do things their way no matter how far fetching it may be.

Please do understand what is written before saying things that do not flatter your intelligence.


Just because you want to do things the easy & short way, then that's your choice, but you don't have to go talking like as if you don't do it then others shouldn't do it.

Please read above.


Its like between a Warrior & a Sorceror, the Sorceror wil see pointless need to carry around a heavy weapon, while the Warrior might think the Sorceror is a coward. All this are depending on how people want to live their lives & fight the way they do.

The Warrior and the Sorceror, sitting in a tree, P-U-F-F-I-N-G the magic dragon...


You want to talk about efficiency in killing, then why not use GEP gun all the way, If I'm not mistaken that can track & it can kill almost anything in 1 shot. If u mean ammo depletion, then cheat. The main reason people other then straight killers don't do this is because its tactless, skilless, & mindless violence, etc.

Ok. I knew it was a bad idea to answer this thread in the first place. Look boy, if you cannot understand what people write then do not try to answer. What the hell does cheating have to do anything to do with this? You were the one asking why punching shouldn't be included, and i went out of the way explaing as to how it wasn't needed in DX1, where you had skills, augs, weapons, stealth, and, IN THE RARE CASE OF YOUR AMMO AND WEAPONS FAILING ON YOU, YOU COULD RUN AWAY, and STILL have no need to use punching.


Another example the way you think others should follow your ideals. People "if they aren't doing it, why should we?"
we? why do you think people will follow how you want to do things the way you want it.

JESUS you are slow, boy. The "If they aren't doing it, why should we?" was related to this line of yours:


& no one is asing someone to drop their guns to fight hth, let them have their guns. We can still run swiftly towards the enemy & knock them down as hard as a fist full of bullets piled up together.

In plain English, just for you:

IF NO ONE ELSE IS DOING IT (DROPPING THEIR GUNS TO ENGAGE IN HTH) THEN WHY SHOULD WE (THE PLAYERS)?

Clear enough? I can also do pictures, or magic tricks... only 10€ an hour for the drawings, €5 each trick.


"Strangely, they seem to fail against a .44 at pointblank... "

That's because that person is crazily running in front of the line of fire. You see you're not trying to understand what is being mentioned, you just want to uphold your views when you yourself know it is not all right.

I'm not trying to understand what's being said? Should we count how many times you've misinterpreted what i said? IN A ROW?


Here's another part you may have ignored, I said when "no weapons at all" but you went on thinking a bullet is better, yeah its better but it be no use when theres no pistol or no bullets.

... *sigh*

Once again, slowly.

I.Did.Not.Said.A.Bullet.Is.Better.I.Said.A.Bullet.Which.Has.A.Higher.Damage.Rating.Than.A.Fist.Is.Not.Sure.To.Work.In.100%.Of.The.Cases.Neither.Does.A.
Fist.Which.Does.Not.Cause.As.Much.Damage.

Thank.You.


Don't you get what people are trying to say.

I do. Do you?


We're not saying its the ultimate weapon, we're just saying it is useful in some ways, of new ways of approaching to things.

Anyway....


Anyway, now you have made your point in your view of punching, let others have their own views, theres no point in counterdicting people's desires.

Do prove where i am contradicting others' desires. Good luck. You ask for an opinion, you got it. Can't handle it? Move on. The exit is ------> that way. Next time you ask for an opinion make sure you understand it before burying yourself.

Kthnxbye.



By constantly doing so, won't help you in anyway.

I'll tell you what doesn't help me or my ulcer, its talking to people who ask for an opinion, fail to read and understand others' opinion, then make the most ridiculous statements all the while thinking they're right. THAT'S what doesn't help me.


Just be glad to have voiced out.

I'm ALWAYS ready to entertain.

And now if you'll excuse me, i'll be going now, and spend what little i have left in the day with people that *gasp* actually can understand what's going on around them!

*shakes head*

auric
9th Oct 2003, 00:55
To Trollslayer,

First of, I didn't asked for opinions, I asked whether part 2 has punching or not, this proves that "you do not understand what is being said here"

Oh yes I do understand what others are trying to say. Every single bit, but of course not 100%, maybe around 90%. So all your slow talks, aren't doing any good, because you're the one missunderstanding it all.

Like I didn't say I could knock someone out when he's wearing a kevlar, I said there are people who can. & all those about letting people have their own opinion, I wasn't saying it in an outburst, just telling you about it, not to shove you out.

You're missunderstanding a perfectly calmly writen conversation, for an idealist argument.

When I just say to be proud to have sound your views,

but you made it sound like,
"ok you said what you want now go away!"

I haven't even have that kind of thought at that moment

At least, I agree with your views first before sounding mine. You haven't even given much thought in mine. except the parts that goes well with your own views.

& using all this childish behaviors to settle things "slow typing",

I pity you. "shakes head"

bye. :)

Le`Sauveur`De`Ces`Dames
9th Oct 2003, 07:47
wow boys, calm down. last time we managed to have a civilized discussion, even though we disagreed.

I won't argue again, all I have to say is in the first thread. even the replies to trollslayer, so I won't bother to explain it again

Sylvester Ink
9th Oct 2003, 08:15
Wow. This has become a regular brawl. If you don't mind me, I'm just gonna hurl myself right on in and join the fray. Cause conflicts are so much fun. And I want to see how quickly Catman closes this post.

First off, auric, no offense intended of course, but one of the most important rules in a debate is not to insult your opponent, but to counter their arguments with logical points. This might have been a more effective approach to the topic.

Anyway, with regards to hth combat, it's definitely has potential to be a fun aspect of gameplay. The quickest example that comes to mind was the Kung Fu mod for Max Payne. You could run through the game without using a single bit of your arsenal and beat them down with your fists. Was it realistic though? Only to a point. In real life, you could probably take down one opponent if you were good enough, but multiple opponents is another story. Especially if they are smart enough to stay far enough away from you to use their guns.

And that's what DX is. A simulation of real life, in essence. Well, okay, it would be realistic to include hthc, but since DX is more about realism than being able to take 20 shots to the head, use a medkit, and be perfectly healed, punching would probably be ineffective against large amounts of enemies to preserve that sense of reality.

Of course, there are times when you could use it on 1-2 enemies, but it wouldn't be as fun in an FPS. Max Payne was in the 3rd person, so hthc worked there. But imagine trying to do all those moves from an FPS perspective. And plus, it would be too bothersome for the player. Why waste 10 seconds beating up an enemy when you could a) kill them with a gun in 1 second b) knock em out with a baton or prod in 1 second. Certainly the first few fights would be fun, but it would eventually become a "lather, rinse, repeat" thing; Too boring to continue doing. There are some things that wouldn't add to the fun of a game, no matter how cool you made it. For example, the developers could make lockpicking a puzzle type thing, where for each lock you encounter you have to use the mouse to control the lockpick to unlock the door. It would definitely be cool. For the first 2-3 times. Then it would become immensely boring. You would be repeating the same thing (with slight variations) over each time you encountered a door.

Hopefully I am getting my message across clearly. It's late and I need sleep. Certainly there are many points to argue the converse. I remember Le`Sauveur`De`Ces`Dames and Trollslayer's first debate (or at least portions of it) and Le` Sauveur` expressed some very good ideas in support of hthc.

Oh, and I also recall some wise martial arts master from somewhere or other saying "A fist may be fast, but it will never be as fast as a bullet." or something akin.

Sylvester Ink
9th Oct 2003, 08:26
Okay, I just checked the link that Le`Sauveur`De`Ces`Dames posted to the old topic, and everything I just said was pretty much covered there. (Including the Kung Fu mod for Max Payne!) And they covered it so much more fully. Now I feel like an idiot for such an unnecessary post. If there is to be any more debate about this topic, just check the old one. Everything has pretty much been said over there.

Le`Sauveur`De`Ces`Dames
9th Oct 2003, 08:42
Oh, and I also recall some wise martial arts master from somewhere or other saying "A fist may be fast, but it will never be as fast as a bullet." or something akin.

hmmm that would be in Once upon a time in china.
and also in Fist of legends

Trollslayer
9th Oct 2003, 09:18
Originally posted by auric
A crapload of crap.

C:\>I_care.exe ... Bad command or file name ... C:\>Exit

Le`Sauveur`De`Ces`Dames
9th Oct 2003, 09:45
pax, agni mei.
anger leads to the dark side

Trollslayer
9th Oct 2003, 10:28
This doesn't make me angry. It makes me sad, actually, as more and more people don't have neither the brain power nor the humility to admit they're wrong, or made a mistake - even when its frickin' obvious. And i don't really have the patience to deal with this kind of stupidity, i got better things to do.

Le`Sauveur`De`Ces`Dames
9th Oct 2003, 10:33
hmmm, since you two disagree, he could say the same about you (all this being a matter of point of view)

Trollslayer
9th Oct 2003, 10:40
Originally posted by Le`Sauveur`De`Ces`Dames
hmmm, since you two disagree, he could say the same about you (all this being a matter of point of view)

:confused: Come on, Le`Sauveur`De`Ces`Dames, are you serious? I disagreed with you on the same matter, i disagreed with Hannibal on other matters, i disagreed with Lawnboy360 on other matters, i disagreed with many other people here on other different matters. Yet me and the person i disagree with manage to have intelligent, opiniated discussions. How can you tell me this is just a divergence of opinion in this case when this guy *completely* misunderstands what i say and just acts stupid, instead of admiting he misunderstood? I mean, him making personal attacks based on his own inability to understand clearly written English makes up for more than a simple disagreement. Read the whole thing - you can't say i'm wrong on this. He even does not apologize for his own arrogance after having been shown where he made mistakes.

Yeah he could say the same about me. In fact, he can say whatever he wants about me. He'll still look dumb anyway if what he says is as ridiculous as what he wrote above.

Trollslayer
9th Oct 2003, 10:47
Heres the deal Le Sauveur:


Originally posted by auric
Oh yes I do understand what others are trying to say. Every single bit, but of course not 100%, maybe around 90%. So all your slow talks, aren't doing any good, because you're the one missunderstanding it all.

Now, do explain me how i "misunderstood it all".


You're missunderstanding a perfectly calmly writen conversation, for an idealist argument.

Oh i think i understand it quite well when someone is unable to understand what i say, and constantly claims i'm enforcing my opinions on others simply because he cannot do better than that.


When I just say to be proud to have sound your views,

but you made it sound like,
"ok you said what you want now go away!"

I point you to the last part of that post of his when he says i should be thankful for having voiced out my opinion, and that i now should others speak their own opinion. Can he get any mroe ridiculous?



At least, I agree with your views first before sounding mine. You haven't even given much thought in mine. except the parts that goes well with your own views.

I mean this guy can't be for real. What did he expect, that i'd agree with him in everything? So, everytime someone doesn't agree with them, they're not considering his ideas? Pathetic.

Really, explain to me where i'm wrong here, Le Sauveur De Ces Dames.

Sylvester Ink
10th Oct 2003, 05:52
*Waiting for Catman to close this thread any second now.*

vick1000
10th Oct 2003, 08:37
How many Law Enforcement/Anti-Terrorist/Espionage agents
have absolutely NO Hand-to-Hand combat training.I think
(I'm sure you don't care),that lack of some form of Hand-to-Hand
combat capability detracts from the games "realism".In reality,
the non-lethal forms of weaponry you claim as bieng more
effective a incapacitating your enemy,would produce a significant
amount of noise.For instance,the Prod Charger,in reality,makes
a quite loud "snapping" noise,the Crossbow makes an even
louder sound.What's that you say,it's a game not reality?
Well from that perspective,why try to make it realistic at all,
just make up a fantastic mind control ability,or permenent
invincability.I agree that "punching" would be rather rediculous,
and very unrealistic for a stealth oriented mission,perhaps more
suited to a bar fight simulator,LOL.But,the fact remains,without
some form of Hand-to-Hand combat capability,the game would
feel unrealistic,or at the very least,incomplete.If I wish to
incapasitate my enemy silently,and non-lethaly,then a choke
hold from behind can be very effective,but chloriform on a rag
may be even more effective.I prefer lethal forms of elimination
myself,I would like to see a "brain jig" animation implimented,
or the classic spinal column rupture,a.k.a. "neck snap".

Trollslayer
10th Oct 2003, 10:07
There are heaps of FPSs out there without any kind of neck-snapping antics. While i don't think their absence detracts from the game's fun, you're free to think so. However, for me, one fact remains - while i played those games, the absence of such a move didn't make me want it included. I still had fun with the games, and not even once i thought about such a move while playing them. I'm certain i wasn't the only one, though, and the fact its still not included in every game of the sort should be a pointer as to why its fun or "realistic" factor may not be as high as previously thought.

Le`Sauveur`De`Ces`Dames
10th Oct 2003, 10:23
hmmm in that case you don't have to have the shotgun or the assault rifle (I never used them).

Trollslayer
10th Oct 2003, 11:26
Sauveur if that line was for me, could you explain it better? :confused: I believe i didn't understand that one.

Le`Sauveur`De`Ces`Dames
10th Oct 2003, 12:06
you said you didn't see the point in punching since you never missed it.

I doubt I would have missed the shotgun or the assalut rifle if they hadn't been in the game (or the cigarettes, by the way). so what was the point in including these in the game?

because SOME would like to play that way.

and if it IS in DX:IW (though I doubt it), nobody forces you to play with it, just like I didn't use the shotgun or the assault rifle.

it doesn't add to the game for you but it could for others, and it certainly DOESN'T remove anything if it were added

Trollslayer
10th Oct 2003, 12:19
Originally posted by Le`Sauveur`De`Ces`Dames
you said you didn't see the point in punching since you never missed it.

*sigh*

I DID NOT say there wasn't a point in punching because i didn't missed it. I said that in games where it wasn't included, i didn't think of it. In other words, its absence didn't ruin the game for me, neither did its absence made me wish it was there.

In other words, the game lacked punching but presented so many other engaging alternatives i never even thought of punching enemies, and only thought of it when other people mentoned it.

Thats very different than saying punching shouldn't be inlcuded because i don't miss it. The world doesn't revolve around me, neither do my likes/dislikes, wishes and views influence others', so there isn't a point in assuming so.


I doubt I would have missed the shotgun or the assalut rifle if they hadn't been in the game (or the cigarettes, by the way). so what was the point in including these in the game?

because SOME would like to play that way.

And where did i said anything pointing to otherwise?


it doesn't add to the game for you but it could for others, and it certainly DOESN'T remove anything if it were added

Im thinking i should quit the boards if people keep misinterpreting what i say at every turn. I mean, English isn't my primary language but i think i explain myself fairly well, but if it isn't enough to type correct english, i don't know what is. Im tired of having to quote myself at every turn because people aren't paying attention, or just flat out don't care.

Le`Sauveur`De`Ces`Dames
10th Oct 2003, 13:34
hmmm, like Silvester Ink, I would also suggest that Catman closes this thread. I think it has no use, and everything has already been said on the subject. I think we are going nowhere, here.

Catman
10th Oct 2003, 13:52
I agree that this thread had gone off track and should be closed. If folks want to discuss the possibilities of punching, they can start a new thread -- and I highly recommend that those who believe it's all be said should simply refrain from opening the new thread (should it appear). :)