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Vampmaster
14th Sep 2003, 09:41
Defiance starts in BO1s era, right? But if there's Sarafan at the beginning of the game, then does that mean the order has been revived again or has history been altered so that they were never killed off or disbanded? If history has been altered then Raziels memories of the beginning of SR2 might need to be changed so that he fought them instead of Moebius mercanaries.

I don't have all the info, so it's not really a plot hole yet. It would need an explanation if I've understod it correctly though.

LOKFan
14th Sep 2003, 09:49
Defiance begins immediatedly after SR2 with Kain searching for Moebius in the Stronghold.

I assume that Kain and Raziel go to the BO-era later in the game.

fneh
14th Sep 2003, 09:50
I thought kain started directly after the SR2 ending (30 years before BO). There were serafan about then.

Raziel is 500 years ahead I think (which is a similar time he was originally stuck in spectral before SR1 started....)

Azazel
14th Sep 2003, 10:08
Originally posted by fneh
I thought kain started directly after the SR2 ending (30 years before BO).
The end of SR2 is 530 years before BO1.

LoK#1
14th Sep 2003, 13:13
and if Kain was in the sr2 era he would be chasing Moby while he still had that dammed staff that he used on Raz and left him no choice but to pick up the B/R, and Moebious would win hands down with that and a few sarafan guards against full Vampire Kain,
and
Kain could possibly be 500 years before the sr2 Era but we saw in the gameplay trailer that Kain looks at a statue of (who i think)is Malek and there would be no statue of him in a past time when he did not exist yet i dont think,but yes this could be later in the game after more time travelling.

I think its Raz who is gonna be behind a few years at first,dunno why i just do i may be wrong but hey i'll be happy whatever time they start in:D ;)

Lozza Mate
15th Sep 2003, 08:52
LOK #1:
Malek was alive at the end of SR2. shortly after he would have been damned to the armor.

LoK#1
15th Sep 2003, 10:33
yeah i know this lozza mate ,but my point was that in the History of the games all statues are memorials to the death of people and Malek was still alive in sr2 era and was just about to save the circle b4 Vorador finished off 6 of them! ie you get to see a statue of raz and memorials of the brethren after they are dead,but i havent heard many tales of Malek before the scurge of the circle,and we could be in an altered timeline where Malek is even more of a hero to the pillar massive

Stephenls
15th Sep 2003, 14:34
Originally posted by LoK#1
and if Kain was in the sr2 era he would be chasing Moby while he still had that dammed staff that he used on Raz and left him no choice but to pick up the B/R, and Moebious would win hands down with that and a few sarafan guards against full Vampire Kain,

I don't know. That's 2000+ year old vampire god Kain. "You thought your mere staff would stop me? Don't be simple, Moebius. You know better than that."

It works better if you imagine Simon Templeton saying it.

Vampmaster
15th Sep 2003, 20:53
Originally posted by LOKFan
Defiance begins immediatedly after SR2 with Kain searching for Moebius in the Stronghold.

I assume that Kain and Raziel go to the BO-era later in the game.

*Looks for something (that won't hurt too much) to bash head on.*

I forgot about that. (On second thought, bashing my head might damage my other brain cell.)

LoK#1
15th Sep 2003, 21:04
Originally posted by Stephenls
I don't know. That's 2000+ year old vampire god Kain. "You thought your mere staff would stop me? Don't be simple, Moebius. You know better than that."

It works better if you imagine Simon Templeton saying it.



well Rahab aquired a water fetish and Kain is bound to know about the staff and it does work with Simon ,but I assume the only way Kain could overcome a weakness like that is to get used to it,hmmm now im thinking maybe Kain took moebious' staff after he killed him and *got used to its effects" over time ,then when he went back in time he cant be weakened from the staff or maybe Turels got it???????????????????????

ok now im lost:confused: :eek:
edit:grammar

Stephenls
16th Sep 2003, 00:23
Originally posted by LoK#1
well Rahab aquired a water fetish and Kain is bound to know about the staff and it does work with Simon ,but I assume the only way Kain could overcome a weakness like that is to get used to it,hmmm now im thinking maybe Kain took moebious' staff after he killed him and *got used to its effects" over time ,then when he went back in time he cant be weakened from the staff or maybe Turels got it???????????????????????

ok now im lost:confused: :eek:
edit:grammar

See, I don't know if the only way to become immune to something like that is through repeated exposure. For Rahab, there's the "state of change" thing that preceeds the devolutions of the members of Kain's circle -- go into a cocoon for a while and come out with fins and unharmed by water, maybe. We don't know.

Likewise, though, I don't know if that's the only way for vampires to change. Kain has been awake and active (I hesitate to use the word "alive" since he's, y'know, not) for over two thousand years, and in that time he's subjugated a world. He's effectively a god. Two thousand years of activity is a lot of time to aquire powerups. Even if the staff weakens Kain, he might still be strong enough to just grab the blasted thing from Moebius's hands and smash it a la Aladdin with Jafar's hypnotic cobra.

I'm not even saying he'd shrug it off to no effect. I'm just saying that you're wrong when you say he'd be easy to kill with just that staff and a couple of guards. Kain ain't no ordinary vampire.

LoK#1
17th Sep 2003, 06:03
Originally posted by Stephenls
See, I don't know if the only way to become immune to something like that is through repeated exposure. For Rahab, there's the "state of change" thing that preceeds the devolutions of the members of Kain's circle -- go into a cocoon for a while and come out with fins and unharmed by water, maybe. We don't know.


I'm not even saying he'd shrug it off to no effect. I'm just saying that you're wrong when you say he'd be easy to kill with just that staff and a couple of guards. Kain ain't no ordinary vampire.

but so was Janos and we dont know how old he was but the staff had a damm good effect on him!
and i wouldnt say im wrong , i just prefer to disagree with you on that 1(but i enjoy a good debate) but Kains "turning" wasnt a normal bite on the neck your now my bi-@tch type thing,and hopefully the art of necromancy will save him from "the effects of Moebius' dammed staff"(i just dont wanna see moby get away from him)


and as for the Brethren i just assumed they changed a little at a time as i have pics of them(sr1 intro time) and Rahab has gills on his neck and scaley skin ,Turel looks Ogerish,Dumah looks like Raz a bit(smoothy)but with a few scars and Zephons head is elongated vertically, oh and Melciah is bald and his skin has cracks in it!
http://instagiber.net/smiliesdotcom/contrib/dvv/asthanos.gif

Stephenls
17th Sep 2003, 07:27
Originally posted by LoK#1
but so was Janos and we dont know how old he was but the staff had a damm good effect on him!

This is an important observation. The question now is "Is Kain more mystically potent than Janus Audren?" And the answer is up in the air.

We know Janos is going to be a boss in Defiance, and probably one that Raziel defeats, judging from screenshots. Thus, I'm going to guess that if Raziel can beat up Janos, Raziel is more powerful than Janos. Strictly speaking.

And so far, we've seen two combats between Kain and Raziel. The first time, Kain beat Raziel down to his knees and then broke a sword over his head. The second is the opening cinema for Soul Reaver 2, where Kain basically tossed Raziel around with his telekinesis while delivering monologue (a highly enjoyable process to watch and listen to, I should add), although it wasn't quite that one-sided. From this, we can derive that Kain is probably more powerful than Janos Audren. Janos never subjugated a world or enacted a scheme that involved altering the past multiple times, after all. Plus, in Blood Omen 2, Kain held his own against a Soul Reaver-wielding Sarafan Lord, and then, after the Soul Reaver had been temporarily removed from the equation, that same Sarafan Lord picked Janos up bodily and tossed him aside like so much trash. And Kain has had close to two thousand years (Raziel was down in the Abyss for about a thousand, right?) of development between then and "now."

Which isn't the question, unfortunately. Physical prowess does not mystical potence equal, and nor do ambition and cunning. In Blood Omen 2, Janos Audren was teleporting people other than himself. As the last of the Ancients, one would think he's be something of a well of arcane (sacred?) power. If any vampire should have been immune to the staff, it'd have been him.

So yeah. You may be right.

LoK#1
17th Sep 2003, 09:23
oh well ,we will just have to wait and see what happens but you've got a point about the whole bo2 ending bit Janos seemed a bit of a pap when fighting :p but then again he had been in the eternal prison and then used to feed the mass for a few hundred years!(i think)

Umah Bloodomen
18th Sep 2003, 02:08
Originally posted in the Eidos Community Forums Terms of use
No Cursing or Swearwords. We encourage you to use our Communities as a forum to debate topics, but please use proper adjectives to express yourself. This includes the creative use of different characters to circumvent our censor.

warpsavant
18th Sep 2003, 02:26
Moebius staff didn't help him much in BO when Kain cuts off his head. Kain is a unique vampire and maybe Moebius staff has no effect on him.

I also think there is some misinformation(or maybe its just hard to figure out) on some website on how the game starts, I think this may be what Vamp is talking about in the first place? The website said they started off in different eras, but last we seen they were right there in the same room, so, Im going to wait for the game before I try and figure that out.

Stephenls
18th Sep 2003, 03:24
Originally posted by DarkRazielim
How the (MOD EDIT: Choose better adjectives in the future please. ~ Umah Bloodomen) do they get in different eras at the end of SR2??

At the end of Soul Reaver 2, Raziel is nearly completely drained of energy and fades into the Spectral.

For Kain, Defiance starts right then. He's still in the Sarafan Keep, he's got the Blood Reaver, Moebius is lurking around somewhere, and where the heck did Raziel go anyway?

For Raziel, things are... less pleasant. The Elder is unhappy with his former-pawn-turned-irritant, and so somehow draws him away into the Underworld (the parts of the Spectral that don't mirror anywhere in the Material; we saw part of the Underworld at the beginning of Soul Reaver 1) and it takes Raziel 500 years to figure out how to escape. For Raziel, the game starts then, when he's making a break for it.

Presumably they'll be reunited either by timestreaming or simply by Kain waiting to catch up to Raziel's place in the timestream. That's one o' them benefits of immortality, I guess.

warpsavant
18th Sep 2003, 07:35
Originally posted by Stephenls
At the end of Soul Reaver 2, Raziel is nearly completely drained of energy and fades into the Spectral.

For Kain, Defiance starts right then. He's still in the Sarafan Keep, he's got the Blood Reaver, Moebius is lurking around somewhere, and where the heck did Raziel go anyway?

For Raziel, things are... less pleasant. The Elder is unhappy with his former-pawn-turned-irritant, and so somehow draws him away into the Underworld (the parts of the Spectral that don't mirror anywhere in the Material; we saw part of the Underworld at the beginning of Soul Reaver 1) and it takes Raziel 500 years to figure out how to escape. For Raziel, the game starts then, when he's making a break for it.

Presumably they'll be reunited either by timestreaming or simply by Kain waiting to catch up to Raziel's place in the timestream. That's one o' them benefits of immortality, I guess.

Ah-ha. That makes sense. I think I see clearly now.

LoK#1
18th Sep 2003, 21:06
Originally posted by Stephenls
At the end of Soul Reaver 2, Raziel is nearly completely drained of energy and fades into the Spectral.


For Raziel, things are... less pleasant. The Elder is unhappy with his former-pawn-turned-irritant, and so somehow draws him away into the Underworld (the parts of the Spectral that don't mirror anywhere in the Material; we saw part of the Underworld at the beginning of Soul Reaver 1)

Presumably they'll be reunited either by timestreaming or simply by Kain waiting to catch up to Raziel's place in the timestream. That's one o' them benefits of immortality, I guess.


hmmmm that could be the reason as to why Raziel can climb in the spectral realm cos its in this unmirrored place,then again maybe not,im just wondering what else is gonna be different in the spectral realm , as we have seen in the trailer he shifts and "passes" through gates differently now !

Drave25
18th Sep 2003, 21:41
At the time of Kain's resurection as a vampire, the circle was already corrupt. Hence his resurection was also. He is not a conventional vampire. He's afterall the guardian of the pillar of balance; corrupted by Mortanius necromancy hence why his children (Raziel, Turrel, Dumah, Rahab, Zephon and Melchiya) started all to turn into horrid creatures. Kain's status as the guardian of the pillar of balance prevented him from this travesty. Kain is trying to restore balance without having all the vampires extinct. How he can manage and where Raziel comes in is anyone's guess from here.

At least that's how I see it...

Umah Bloodomen
19th Sep 2003, 03:27
Originally posted by DarkRazielim
Ok, sorry Umah Bloodomen, i wasnt aware of that rule.
And sorry everyone...

No worries, DarkRazielim. Just be careful in the future. :)

Camus Audron
19th Sep 2003, 04:39
um, I just want to point out, that if we have never seen Moebius use the staff on Kain, maybe his staff just doesnt work on Necromancy vampires. You always have to asume the least when it's about nosgoth :p

Apocrypha Roxy
19th Sep 2003, 16:02
Which raises the question of why, if Kain would be unaffected, would Raziel be affected by the staff throughout SR2 (first meeting with Moe, final confrontation, etc). If it affected vampires, why did it have an influence on the Wraith Blade & Raziel, but not on the physical Blood Reaver?

Considering that Raz is no longer your run of the mill vamp makes it more complicated. :eek:

Of course, we're talking about Nosgoth, where Hylden eat babies for breakfast :rolleyes: and beheaded vampires return miraculously from the dead. That said, there are no set rules. Rule #1 - there are no rules. :D

BTW Stephenls has it right with the whole Defiance timespan thing. I'da said it myself, but he beat me to the punch with a better explanation. Kudos. :D

Stephenls
19th Sep 2003, 16:30
Originally posted by Apocrypha Roxy
Which raises the question of why, if Kain would be unaffected, would Raziel be affected by the staff throughout SR2 (first meeting with Moe, final confrontation, etc). If it affected vampires, why did it have an influence on the Wraith Blade & Raziel, but not on the physical Blood Reaver?

Considering that Raz is no longer your run of the mill vamp makes it more complicated. :eek:

Of course, we're talking about Nosgoth, where Hylden eat babies for breakfast :rolleyes: and beheaded vampires return miraculously from the dead. That said, there are no set rules. Rule #1 - there are no rules. :D

Well, if the staff doesn't affect necromantic vampires, it shouldn't affect Kain or Raziel. But the wraithblade is a Raziel that's been bonded to a vampiric weapon for ages and ages and ages -- perhaps it's soaked in some of that "natural vampire" essence, or something, hence making it vulnerable.

Or not. I don't know.


BTW Stephenls has it right with the whole Defiance timespan thing. I'da said it myself, but he beat me to the punch with a better explanation. Kudos. :D

Hey, thanks!

Apocrypha Roxy
20th Sep 2003, 18:42
You're welcome.

Although, if you check out Nelo's thread you'll read about (and hopefully see) a picture of Kain kneeling in front of Moebius holding the staff, weakened. Apparently it DOES affect Necromantic vampires as well. This spells trouble.

-hops up and down-

November can't come any sooner!

:D

PS you can see Nelo's 'interpretation' at the NR forums Defiance section. :rolleyes: :p