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View Full Version : Moebius pondering.. (SPOILERS)



fneh
11th Sep 2003, 12:52
It was suggested in another thread thatMoeby will be an early boss in defiance. Now, This was explained as being because kain is hunting for him in the demo a PS Exp. Why would kain hunt him down if he knew he couldn't kill him? Because time was altered by the paradox! Now if Kain kills moebius in that time period we will be faced with a new problem:

While young kain will never meet moeby and go and kill william to trigger the vamp purge (thus saving vorador to explain his presence in BO2) there will be a NEW time guardian corrupted for the young kain to kill to restore balance (because the pillars are not corrupt at the end of SR2)

or is it possible that
the moebius at the SR2 end is actually from AFTEr the pillars are corrupt? If kain kills him then he saves his younger self the trouble of killing him to restore the pillar but he could still kill William. If the older kain kills moeby then Vorador still lives and william still dies

Is moebius such an evil ******* because he was corrupted in BO1, or was he always like that? We see him in SR2s ending as being corrupt BEFORE the pillars decend into madness. Was this Moebius from a later time?

Why would Moebius KNOWINGLY corrupt the pillars and himself?

Stukedogg
11th Sep 2003, 13:37
Because he's their* Plaything.

*The Hylden

Umah Bloodomen
11th Sep 2003, 20:50
Correction, he's Squiddy's plaything and I don't believe Squiddy is a Hylden. If anything, Moebius is the prime example of a Devil's Advocate. He's playing everyone.

As far as Moebius' corrputed nature is concerned:

There is evidence to suggest both he and the Lady Azimuth were a bit eccentric even before the corruption, however as we've witnessed, that event sure didn't help matters any.

Camus Audron
12th Sep 2003, 00:25
Originally posted by Umah Bloodomen
[B]Correction, he's Squiddy's plaything and I don't believe Squiddy is a Hylden. If anything, Moebius is the prime example of a Devil's Advocate. He's playing everyone.


*ahem*


Originally said by kain in SR2 Moebius is a puppet, Raziel - haven't you realized that yet? That's the sweetest irony in all of this - Nosgoth's 'great manipulator' is their plaything.But the ones pulling the strings haven't shown their faces, yet.
Eldergod isnt plural, besides he had already shown his face several times...

Azriel
12th Sep 2003, 00:35
Camus Audron
Eldergod isnt plural, besides he had already shown his faces several times...

Just a tip, when you reply to a spoiler, use a spoiler around your own text aswell.

And...

I believe "they" was reffering to the forces in leage with the Elder, Moebius himself said that he served the Elder God.

Camus Audron
12th Sep 2003, 00:48
Originally posted by Azriel
Just a tip, when you reply to a spoiler, use a spoiler around your own text aswell.

And...

I believe "they" was reffering to the forces in leage with the Elder, Moebius himself said that he served the Elder God.

Well, you got the quote out of context, Kain is talking about who's plaything Moebius is, and he says "their" so again
Originally posted by Camus Audron
Eldergod isnt plural, besides he had already shown his face several times...


Though, I do not deny that Moe serves EG, they both confirmed he did, I am only pointing out that Kain makes it clear that Moe served the Hylden

Kal80
12th Sep 2003, 00:56
I hope this spoiler thing works. In regards to Moebius and his "eccentric" nature, is it possible he was corrupted from the first moment he became a Guardian? If you think about the Elder he has the ability to know what is going on in all time periods. If you do something in the "present" he knows it in the past. The Elder seemed to have this knowledge not because he simply predicted things but because he lived through all time periods he could somehow communicate all past present and future events to himself. He was connected.

My point with Moebius is this. Is it possible that with Moebius and his ability over time it allows him the same kind of connection like the Elder has? If Nupraptor sent the Circle mad via their psychic connection to him is it possible that Moebius was psychically attacked in past present and future? It might explain why he seemed so intent on helping to destroy the Circle or if he is being controlled it would explain why he was so willing to help with his judgement clouded or destroyed.

Camus Audron
12th Sep 2003, 01:14
well that is a very good explanation kal.

I had thought about the EG timeless conscience thing too, but I had atribbuted it to the fact that he exists in both the Phisical realm, and the Spectral realm.

Allow me to explain myself; in the Spectral realm, time never passes, so eldergod being a creature that is also in the Material realm has an infinite number of existences in the spectral realm.because as time never passes in spectral every material realm fraction of time equals an alternate spectral realm universe.

for example when Raziel is in spectral and shifts to material, then a second later shifts back to spectral, he's not coming back to the same spectral realm, because every fraction of time(seconds if you will) is an alternate spectral realm.

so by existing in both of them, the Eg would have a dimensional vision of time, giving him a timeless conscience.

about Moebius doing the same it's perfectly posible, even though it obviously would have to be with a different method.but personally I rather think he just checks back in the chronoplast every time a disturbance happens :p because I like to think of the seer...as the only true Seer (could she be the ancient time guardian?)

Umah Bloodomen
12th Sep 2003, 04:19
Not to rain on your little parade there or anything, Camus, but what you quoted actually goes against what you were trying to point out. Kain states that the true puppetmasters haven't even shown their faces yet, which with that being the case, there is a good chance Moebius himself hasn't even discovered who they are.

And don't start with the Elder has shown his face notion. He's done nothing but raise propaganda. He has yet to show his true power, or his true intentions. Does he hint at what his intentions are? Sure, but then again, so does everyone else.

This is all a part of the elaborate game, try to put each other into check before ultimately reaching checkmate. Moebius makes a move, Kain compensates and vice versa. Seeing they both time stream, their job is to outwit their opponent. Moebius could have information and the know-how on how to manipulate things to make that information prove true, and vice versa.

Nowhere does Kain say Moebius serves the Hylden. *Their* could mean Winged Ancients, or *their* could mean demons for all we know. You're trying to convey gospel through something that was intentionally left vague.

I also suppose this would be a bad time to stress the fact that not everything that is said in the games is true. Even Amy Hennig herself admits that. :rolleyes:

Kal, I wish to clarify with you about the term *corruption* when referring back to the notion I raised earlier. I didn't mean *corrupted* in the sense of the physical corruption caused by Nupraptor's madness. I meant he was just a bad egg in general and that Nupraptor just made it worse.

Also, I believe the only reason the Elder has any inclination as to what happens in the past, present or future is because of Moebius. It's clear that the Elder doesn't have the ability to stream himself, and it's doubtful that he can just *predict* that sort of thing. If he could do these things himself, there would be no need for Moebius. Moebius is the one he conveys his messages to in order to reach his other era selves, however we don't know if Moebius twists them around for his own agenda. The game of *telephone* anyone?

In regards to your second paragraph, hypothetically speaking of course, I don't think it would matter if all incarnations of Moebius were corrupted by Nupraptor. You have to figure, even if they weren't there is still a Moebius (post-Circle corruption) with the ability to travel back and either influence past versions of himself, or take matters into his own hands.

fneh
12th Sep 2003, 10:19
Originally posted by Camus Audron
Well, you got the quote out of context, Kain is talking about who's plaything Moebius is, and he says "their" so again

Though, I do not deny that Moe serves EG, they both confirmed he did, I am only pointing out that Kain makes it clear that Moe served the Hylden


there is NOTHING to back up moeby even knowing the hylden exist. When kain said the puppeters hadn't shown their faces yet he meant they hadn't come out into the open to KAIN. Squiddy even SAID to raziel "moebius is my good servant" I'm confident moeby doesn't have anything to do with the hylden (at least knowingly. He just serves his 'god')

Azazel
12th Sep 2003, 17:22
Originally posted by Azriel
Just a tip, when you reply to a spoiler, use a spoiler around your own text aswell.

You should edit your quote, because now the original text is in a spoiler tag, but your quote isn't.

Camus Audron
12th Sep 2003, 19:23
Originally posted by Umah Bloodomen
Not to rain on your little parade there or anything, Camus, but what you quoted actually goes against what you were trying to point out.
Meh, no worries, there's no parade to rain on here :p, I enjoy this kind of discussion, including other's members retaliations telling me I am wrong, I only seek to have more accurate visions by comparing my views with others, specially yours since they are so well thought out =), one of the reasons I joined here is that I see many intelligent discussions happen here, it's encouraging =).

Originally posted by Umah Bloodomen
Kain states that the true puppetmasters haven't even shown their faces yet, which with that being the case, there is a good chance Moebius himself hasn't even discovered who they are.
that's probably true, but then again when he says that, he makes a pause before saying yet,he makes it sound like he knows exactly when and where that would happen, which leads me to belive that he already saw the puppeteers' faces, and he reffers to Raziel's vision when he states that.Though I realize this is too far fetched to make everyne in here belive it, I just feel very certain about this vision of mine, and I enjoy to discuss it.

I think it's perfectly plausible that they left an important plot element to the voice acting, since CD spends so much effort on the voice acting.

I completly agree with you that moebius probably doesnt know them, but from my point of view, it is irrelevant.




Originally posted by Umah Bloodomen
And don't start with the Elder has shown his face notion. He's done nothing but raise propaganda. He has yet to show his true power, or his true intentions. Does he hint at what his intentions are? Sure, but then again, so does everyone else.Yes, that's why I dont think he refers to "showing faces" in the sense of their true essence and intention, I think he just refers to wether or not Raziel has met them yet.

Originally posted by Umah Bloodomen
This is all a part of the elaborate game, try to put each other into check before ultimately reaching checkmate. Moebius makes a move, Kain compensates and vice versa. Seeing they both time stream, their job is to outwit their opponent. Moebius could have information and the know-how on how to manipulate things to make that information prove true, and vice versa.very true, that probably played a part on how Kain was fooled by the Hylden. There's one thing that has always bugged me...is Moebius as a time streamer outside the influence of the flow of history?or does he keep two soulreavers with him at all times? :p

Originally posted by Umah Bloodomen
Nowhere does Kain say Moebius serves the Hylden. *Their* could mean Winged Ancients, or *their* could mean demons for all we know. You're trying to convey gospel through something that was intentionally left vague.

I also suppose this would be a bad time to stress the fact that not everything that is said in the games is true. Even Amy Hennig herself admits that. :rolleyes:
Well, you made a very good point about the "their" and I have nothing to argue, you convinced me on that one, "their" could correspond to ancients, or even a group that we havent seen yet, I asumed Kain always meant Hylden when he said "they" when I saw SR2's ending, but now I see that wasnt stated and only left for interpretation.

And yes it would be a bad time to stress that point :p simply because if that's what we're going to play we could say anything we wanted, we could say that the soul reaver never had raziel in it, and it was just mortanius who used his magic to put a wraith in it, but obvioousy that would make the whole argument pointless.We have to work based on what we know, and what was hinted to posibly be fake...

...well now that I think about it, I just killed my own point, since Kain was manipulated, and everything he said could be a bunch of jack**** made up by Moebius or whoever XD



Originally posted by Umah Bloodomen
Also, I believe the only reason the Elder has any inclination as to what happens in the past, present or future is because of Moebius. It's clear that the Elder doesn't have the ability to stream himself, and it's doubtful that he can just *predict* that sort of thing. If he could do these things himself, there would be no need for Moebius. Moebius is the one he conveys his messages to in order to reach his other era selves, however we don't know if Moebius twists them around for his own agenda. The game of *telephone* anyone?hm, could be...but remember that as it was shown in SR, EG is all seing and all knowing, he knew all about nosgoth whitout having ever moved an inch out of his realm.

But I do belive, that by actively existing in both the spectral and Material realm (notice that all other creatures shift) he has the vision of time, provided by the material realm, and he has a timeless vision of time, provided by the dimensional vision that Spectral realm provides him.

I think he simply uses moebius to do the tasks that are "out of his reach"

Originally posted by Umah Bloodomen
In regards to your second paragraph, hypothetically speaking of course, I don't think it would matter if all incarnations of Moebius were corrupted by Nupraptor. You have to figure, even if they weren't there is still a Moebius (post-Circle corruption) with the ability to travel back and either influence past versions of himself, or take matters into his own hands. Agreed, we'll probably never know what's the matter with moebius (unless we get chris to ask amy that is ;p)

god...the discussion is good, but the quote and spoiler tagging sure is tiresome C_C this IS the defiance forum, so it's not exactly spoiling to tell what happens in previous games of the series, I mean CD's Defiance page even spoils the end of SR2...what do you think about just droping it?

Umah Bloodomen
13th Sep 2003, 05:29
Originally posted by Camus Audron
Meh, no worries, there's no parade to rain on here :p, I enjoy this kind of discussion, including other's members retaliations telling me I am wrong, I only seek to have more accurate visions by comparing my views with others, specially yours since they are so well thought out =), one of the reasons I joined here is that I see many intelligent discussions happen here, it's encouraging =).

This really didn't need a spoiler, IMO, on account that you're not really divulging anything in it. I am glad you enjoy my speculations, however you don't need to praise them. Call me modest, but I just don't find it necessary. :o


Originally posted by Camus Audron
that's probably true, but then again when he says that, he makes a pause before saying yet,he makes it sound like he knows exactly when and where that would happen, which leads me to belive that he already saw the puppeteers' faces, and he reffers to Raziel's vision when he states that.Though I realize this is too far fetched to make everyne in here belive it, I just feel very certain about this vision of mine, and I enjoy to discuss it.

**broken record mode** Just because he knows when and where doesn't necessarily mean he knows who. I am glad you feel very certain of your vision, however, I feel that nothing you've said gives any of us cause to believe you. (Especially when you point out later that you agree your notion is flawed). ;)


Originally posted by Camus Audron
I think it's perfectly plausible that they left an important plot element to the voice acting, since CD spends so much effort on the voice acting.

Right, and this issue was brought up where in anything I said earlier? :rolleyes: :p


Originally posted by Camus Audron
I completly agree with you that moebius probably doesnt know them, but from my point of view, it is irrelevant.


Irrelevant how? Your entire point was Moebius was working for the Hylden. And it was blown out of the water. (You admit so yourself). I think it is very relevant at this point, because it sheds some light on another possibility that quite possibly hasn't been conceived by any of the parties involved. I feel you only find it irrelevant because it doesn't support what you had to offer. Do correct me if I am wrong.


Originally posted by Camus Audron
very true, that probably played a part on how Kain was fooled by the Hylden. There's one thing that has always bugged me...is Moebius as a time streamer outside the influence of the flow of history?or does he keep two soulreavers with him at all times? :p

Time is Moebius' plaything. If he feels he should have two reavers to accomplish something he sets out to do, then he's going to obtain two reavers.


Originally posted by Camus Audron
And yes it would be a bad time to stress that point :p simply because if that's what we're going to play we could say anything we wanted, we could say that the soul reaver never had raziel in it, and it was just mortanius who used his magic to put a wraith in it, but obvioousy that would make the whole argument pointless.We have to work based on what we know, and what was hinted to posibly be fake...

...well now that I think about it, I just killed my own point, since Kain was manipulated, and everything he said could be a bunch of jack**** made up by Moebius or whoever XD

We can say anything we want. However there is a difference between coming off as speculative and coming off as preaching gospel truth, IMO.


Originally posted by Camus Audron
I think he simply uses moebius to do the tasks that are "out of his reach"

Right, and if the Squid were as *all-knowing* and *seeing* as what was presented there would be no need for Moebius. Moebius is doing everything. The squid is just there and orchestrating it.


Originally posted by Camus Audron
god...the discussion is good, but the quote and spoiler tagging sure is tiresome C_C this IS the defiance forum, so it's not exactly spoiling to tell what happens in previous games of the series, I mean CD's Defiance page even spoils the end of SR2...what do you think about just droping it?

First, who are you to make that decision for everyone else that it's alright to openly discuss matters which they may not currently know about? You can't tell me honestly that everyone who visits these forums have played and have grasped the complexity of the story. Secondly, the official site leaves enough to the imagination without going into intricate details (especially on issues raised here). And last but not least, everyone has the right to take in the story at their own pace, and we all have the responsibility to ensure that happens. This thread makes for good practice for those who contribute to it to get a feel for the SPOILER function. When in doubt, use it. You won't be faulted for being courteous.

The issue of SPOILERS are being treated as an extension of the current forum TOU, as members have expressed their fear of having aspects of LOKD disclosed to them upon its release, and this is the only way to ensure everyone is having a fun forum browsing experience (by enforcing it as such). I am sorry you find it to be such a hassle, but you are also not the only member of these forums, and the SPOILER function allows you to post anything you want about any aspect of the story (within reason and in compliance of the TOU) while allowing people to read it at their discretion. A mighty fine happy medium if you ask me.

EDIT: Formatting adjusmtents.

LOKFan
13th Sep 2003, 06:10
*Claps*

Well said, Umah!

Vinicius
13th Sep 2003, 12:23
Originally posted by Umah Bloodomen
Right, and if the Squid were as *all-knowing* and *seeing* as what was presented there would be no need for Moebius. Moebius is doing everything. The squid is just there and orchestrating it.


I think the main reasons Squid needs Moebius is the way he looks and that he lives under water.
He couldn't go around without people running away or trying to kill him.
And humans are more inclined to listen other humans than a giant squid or any other creature.

LoK#1
13th Sep 2003, 13:47
Well the way i see it (and its just my interpretation of the game ) Moebius does pr work for the EG telling tales of woe and deceipt to everyone he meets,EG is not working for anyone and i think is in control of the demons ,The Hylden possibly met the Demons in the other dimension and are now working with EG or he could be using them to his own ends, and as for Kain all i can say about him is he knows a lot more than he is letting on,but in Defiance i think he will be flying blind i.e. not knowing what will happen next.Raziel is just a poor fool who trusts too much and not enuff and even if he does manage to escape the Blood Reaver hes gonna have to screw over a few people he calls an ally(if any) i.e.he kills this janos looking guy his soul is free and he tells raz he can now fullfill something but Squiddy forces Raziel to swallow the soul instead as i think he can still control Raz

just my ramblings for now

Umah Bloodomen
13th Sep 2003, 14:04
Originally posted by Vinicius
I think the main reasons Squid needs Moebius is the way he looks and that he lives under water.
He couldn't go around without people running away or trying to kill him.
And humans are more inclined to listen other humans than a giant squid or any other creature.


I agree that Squiddy's form is a big part of the reason why he is unable to do for himself, what Moebius does for him.
I don't think he could *go around without people running away*, on account I don't think he can physically get around. Octopi have been documented scaling land to move between tide-pools, however they're not usually massive, and Squiddy is a bit different than a typical Octopi. ;)

I do agree with your last sentiments. There has been speculation in the past (not this thread specifically) suggesting that Squiddy is possibly the true form of Hash'ak'gik. The reason I bring this up is because Raziel actually makes the suggestion that Moebius might not even know Squiddy's true form.


Originally spoken by Raziel in SR2
And if I tell Moebius that he's worshipping a giant squid, do you think his faith will falter?

From a speculative standpoint, one could interpret that the Elder does have the ability to disguise himself in order to win over a cult-following. (Providing he is Hash'ak'gik). A demonic entity is sure to make more of a lasting impression than a squid.

Something to ponder over, I am sure. ;)

Vampmaster
14th Sep 2003, 10:58
Moebius may not even know the Elder in person. If could be that he just hears his voice either telepathically or mystically like Raz does in SR1.

The corruption of the pillars may just have been after the guardians became so corrupted that they abandoned their responsibilities to the pillars.

When Kain says "they" or "Dark Forces" in SR2, it's just his way of saying 'the bad guys'. The demons, hylden, sorcerors etc are all part of the conspirisy(sp?). Even Raz said he was a conspiritor with Moebius breifly. Even though as he says they were never allies, that still means Raz was one of "them" breifly.

I think if Hash and Squiddy are the same, it might be Hash who is the true form and he's just being kept in the form of a squid by the pillars.

Umah Bloodomen
14th Sep 2003, 23:59
Originally posted by Vampmaster
I think if Hash and Squiddy are the same, it might be Hash who is the true form and he's just being kept in the form of a squid by the pillars.

You've sparked my curiosity. Could you possibly elaborate on this? (I'm more specifically looking for the *how?* question to be answered). ;)