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aerelorn
10th Sep 2003, 09:04
I'm very scared for this game, and I'll tell you why.

Let's take the not-so-hypothetical situation that you come across a GEP gun in the original game. Do you pick it up? That's a question that requires some serious thought.

The GEP Gun is big, so you're going to have to drop stuff to carry it. Unfortunately you find out that your sniper rifle is going to have to go if you want it. Do you take it?

Well...you only have level 1 in Heavy Weapons, but you have level 4 in Rifles. So it's probably not such a good idea.

But then you check your ammo. You only have 3 rifle bullets left, but you have plenty of GEP rockets. You know you're going to run into heavy fighting ahead, so do you keep your tricked-out sniper rifle with 3 accuracy mods and a silencer and depend on your level 2 lockpick and electronics skill to keep you alive, or do you drop it for the GEP gun and know you'll make it through?

Like I said, it's not an easy question to answer.


In Invisible War, of course you pick up the GEP gun. It only takes up one inventory slot so you should have no trouble making room for it. Plus, since the recent Gamespy preview confirmed that all weapons use one ammo type(maybe this was confirmed before, I thought it was just an unpleasant rumor) you have plenty of sniper bullets and GEP rockets. It's a no-brainer.

RIP serious thought, we'll miss you dearly.

hakselsen
10th Sep 2003, 09:23
Harvey Smith says this (goodbye ammo):

Spector clarified. "This isn't just a rehash, it's not just the same game done over. If we ever fall into that trap, kill me, OK?" Indeed, the game is radically different than its predecessor, evolved and reworked to a remarkable degree. Some elements of Invisible War will be simpler; for example, all weapons will use one generic type of ammo. Other aspects, such as the twisting, branching, gameplay-affecting plot, are much more complex.

Trollslayer
10th Sep 2003, 09:29
Originally posted by aerelorn
In Invisible War, of course you pick up the GEP gun. It only takes up one inventory slot so you should have no trouble making room for it. Plus, since the recent Gamespy preview confirmed that all weapons use one ammo type(maybe this was confirmed before, I thought it was just an unpleasant rumor) you have plenty of sniper bullets and GEP rockets. It's a no-brainer.

RIP serious thought, we'll miss you dearly.

"Its a no-brainer". Good god...

1) The inventory slots now allow for one item for each slot, but managing it will still be required, and you WILL have to make decisions regarding what you take along.

2) A no-brainer because it uses the same type of ammo? Let me guess, by that logic, the original DX was a no-brainer, because the ammunition you carried did not occupied inventory space! *shakes head*

Just because all amunition is the same (apparently), that doesn't mean the game will suffer in terms of strategy or gameplay. kthnxbye.

Picasso
10th Sep 2003, 10:00
What Trollslayer said. If they had done away with the inventory completely and gone to a "carry-all-you-want" FPS type of system, you'd have an excellent point. But you still have a limited amount of space to use, and you still have to make those decisions.

I guess it depends on what you liked about DX. If you liked making hard decisions about what to take and what to leave, then you're probably going to like DX2. If you liked rearranging the layout of your entire inventory just to accommodate a sniper rifle instead of an assault rifle, go play Tetris. It's pretty much the same thing.

Prohass
10th Sep 2003, 10:21
I love the ability to only carry minimul weapons, and I expect some weapons will use more ammo of the one generic type than others, for example, a rocket would use a lot more than a single pistol shot, so it all should work out.

And I loved the Halo weapons system, its one of the few that was similar to DX in that you only could carry a limited amount of weapons and had to make strategical choices.

Le`Sauveur`De`Ces`Dames
10th Sep 2003, 11:14
hmmm, Wa already discussed that, though I can't find the thread (must be to old now)

I don't mind 1-slot-items, as long as you have

1) a limited number of slots
2) and/or let's say a weight limitation. (after all, carrying a crossbow isn't like carrying a GEP-gun)

in that case, you can still play tetris (I mean have to make decisions about your inventory )

aerelorn
10th Sep 2003, 13:42
Relax guys. Maybe I was a bit too pessimistic in my original post, but I didn't mean to start a flamewar. I only posted at all because the situation came up last night as I was playing DX(hence the not-so-hypothetical comment) and I was sad that it wouldn't come up in Invisible War.

1. Yes, inventory slots mean you still have to make decisions. But there's a difference between dropping your sniper rifle(4 slots), your medkits(1 slot), your shock prod(1 slot), your gas grenades(1 slot), and your LAMs(1 slot) in return for the GEP gun(8 slots), then just dropping any one item. If I could have just dropped the gas grenades it would have been a no-brainer, like I said.

Obviously weight would have the same effect as the number of slots(it'd actually be better imo), but I wouldn't hold my breath for it when they're trying to simplify everything.

2. Yes, weapons will almost undoubtedly use differing amounts of the one generic ammo for each shot. A GEP gun would probably use more than a sniper rifle, so I wouldn't have been better off in picking it up if it were DX2. It was the fact that I had no ammo for my preferred weapon, but had ammo for the GEP gun that made the choice difficult.


For those interested, I left the GEP gun behind, praying that I would find some rifle ammo. I didn't, but I still got through(though I did have to use several of those medkits, LAMs, and gas grenades that I would have otherwise had to leave behind).

Also, recent previews have suggested DX2 will have a lot more story related choices, so that's good. Both would be better though.

Trollslayer
10th Sep 2003, 13:59
Originally posted by aerelorn
1. Yes, inventory slots mean you still have to make decisions. But there's a difference between dropping your sniper rifle(4 slots), your medkits(1 slot), your shock prod(1 slot), your gas grenades(1 slot), and your LAMs(1 slot) in return for the GEP gun(8 slots), then just dropping any one item. If I could have just dropped the gas grenades it would have been a no-brainer, like I said.

That example in DX:IW would probably translate to:

Sniper Rifle: 1 slot
Medkit: 1 slot
Shock Prod: 1 Slot
Gas Grenade: 1 slot
LAM: 1 slot
GEP Gun: 1 slot

Then you'd only have 5 slots. They would be filled with the SR, the Medkit, the SP, the GG, and the LAM; then you'd have to decide which to remove to take the GEP. The inventory will not be this small obviously, i just used an item-per-slot example of decision-making.

Really, just because inventory management will not be Tetris anymore doesn't mean it's broken. The same decisions regarding equipment will still exist. In fact, i criticized the original DX because it made guns occupy too many slots, but let me pile up grenades of the same type in the same slot, along with medkits and other similar things. That, in itself, was broken, in my opinion.

Le`Sauveur`De`Ces`Dames
10th Sep 2003, 14:21
It is tru you won't be faced with the same choices (do I keep this good rifle with almost no ammo left or do I take this non-upgraded GEP for which I have plenty), but still the same type of choice will apply:

considering my ammo level is low, do I keep a weapon that uses not to many ammo, and is less effective, or do I replace it with a bigger, more gun, but which takes a lot more ammo (meaning less shots)

I really don't think unified ammo/1-slot inventory changes a lot on this level.

(though I would have preferred distinct ammo, but after all, if they do come with a credible explanation, why not?)

Random
10th Sep 2003, 14:22
Originally posted by Prohass
... and I expect some weapons will use more ammo of the one generic type than others, for example, a rocket would use a lot more than a single pistol shot, so it all should work out.


This is exactly right, and it's effectively the same system:

In DX1, if you were running out of shotgun ammo you could switch to a pistol to conserve ammo.

In DX2, if your heavy weapons are taking too much ammo, you can switch to a pistol which doesn't use as much ammo.

It's basically the same thing, without the need to balance many ammo types.

Edit: looks like I was beaten to it. :p

Le`Sauveur`De`Ces`Dames
10th Sep 2003, 14:38
I have read on one of the preview posted bye lawnboy360 that there is (at least on the X-Box version, but I guess it's also on the PC version) a primary and a secondary fire.

would that mean each weapon has two firing modes, or the grenades, LAM and so on are the secondary fire, or you can have two weapons ready, and choose which one you use?

or is it like ion DX1 where you right-click was to use object, and they just changed the name of the key/button?

Trollslayer
10th Sep 2003, 15:20
Perhaps LAMs and other grenades can now be thrown and detonated remotely.

Frost Giant
10th Sep 2003, 15:45
Originally posted by Trollslayer
Perhaps LAMs and other grenades can now be thrown and detonated remotely.

Ye, in one of the reviews it was specifically said that one will be able to do just that.:D

Le`Sauveur`De`Ces`Dames
10th Sep 2003, 16:09
damn, I must have missed that part.

I'm gonna read it again

Pentti
10th Sep 2003, 17:36
I don't know how that new inventory system is going to work... It should be as realistic as possible, (not too realistic, alex is augmented, so he/she can propably carry more stuff than normal male/female human) and it should have weight and size limits. For example, if you have 10 slots where you can put something, you can't have 10 gep-guns because they are way too big and heavy, besides there is no way to hide them under your cloak. DX1 had a good system, and if you kept it clear, you didn't have to play tetris all the time :)

AlteredGlyph
10th Sep 2003, 19:07
What would be really cool is f you had a "visible" inventory, like in Planetside, So that all the weapons you carry are visible, and you're stealthier with feewer weapons. This would solye a few problems, although with a GEP, assault rifle, and Sniper rifle, you might get a little crowded.... It's a start of an idea though.

coldblue
10th Sep 2003, 19:17
I was under the impression that the slots might be typed, i.e., you can carry one heavy weapon, one rifle, one type of LAM, etc.

Also, re: ammo. Remember, this is the future. They can destroy cities with nano-bots. Its probably makes perfect sense to have "nano-ammo", a can full of nanites and raw materials that can build itself into whatever kind of ammo is required. No specialized ammo would be required - just plug into your can of paste, and WHAM - bullets, missiles, small penguins, you name it.

pooch
10th Sep 2003, 19:32
I realize this is a post that is directly discussing inventory management (pros and cons). However, I think the development team really wanted to simplify this so you could enjoy the real "meat" of the game - the environment and situational strategy.

I also realize that in the original DX, part of the game strategy was deciding what weapons you would make a part of your "Tetris" inventory. But in the end, did it make your break your game experience? If it did, then you probably missed a great story based game because you were to caught up in the inventory selection. Opinions will vary greatly on this topic, but all-in-all I really feel the inventory management is better off with the "1-slot" concept - as it will be limited greatly. My guess is you won't really have many slots available, so you will still need to pick and choose strategically without spending all that "original DX" time moving the inventory around so it fits just right.

Now, the real concern - is this game going to suffer from being an Xbox port? Yikes!

Trollslayer
10th Sep 2003, 20:20
Originally posted by pooch
Now, the real concern - is this game going to suffer from being an Xbox port? Yikes!

:mad:

Thats not a real concern. Given Spector's stated multiple times in all hos interviews it won't. Besides its not a port in the sense people put it in. The game wasn't made for XBox then put on a PC, it had two separate development cycles. Warren himself said the only thing that was a problem was map size, but even then, he says that they've hit the mark with their size because they were tailored for the gameplay needs. AAARRGHH!!!! STOP THE SAME QUESTIONS AGAIN!!!

*hiperventilates*

hakselsen
10th Sep 2003, 21:08
I don't think the simplified inventory will make the game less realistic than dx1, after all the tetris inventory in dx1 was anything but realistic. Actually, not a single game I can think of has an inventory which makes sense (you can carry way too much, or the layout is all strange etc.)

I just expected a little more from a game which probably is gonna push realism in computer games several steps forward. I kinda liked the idea that you only can carry one heavy weapon and so on. The idea could be that you store things on several places on your body, like a utility belt, on your back etc.

If they wanted to take realism to a new level in inventory implementation, they might consider these things, but my guess is they don't. They just want to keep the inventory from getting in the way, like it often did in dx1. I think it's gonna work better in dx2 than dx1, but I believe there is another solution which is much more realistic, and playable than 1-slot-fits-all.

After all, it's these "small" things that really hightens the feel of reality and realism IMO.

Godwin
11th Sep 2003, 09:27
maybe each slot cannot contain more than 1 of each object? objects like lockpicks and multitools? or maybe they'll have limits

whatever, i dont think it's that big a problem
maybe they should use weight as a restricting quantity instead of space

Leo
11th Sep 2003, 10:34
the same ammo idea sucks because no one will use pistols, because they are weak, and that will make game boring [to use one weapon - prefered silenced sniper rifle]. If the weapon won't be awailable early in the game, I still will not use the pistol.

Le`Sauveur`De`Ces`Dames
11th Sep 2003, 12:27
Originally posted by Leo
the same ammo idea sucks because no one will use pistols, because they are weak, and that will make game boring [to use one weapon - prefered silenced sniper rifle]. If the weapon won't be awailable early in the game, I still will not use the pistol.

except if you can upgrade your pistol and it STILL cost a lot less ammo

like in DX, I never used the pistol, because I preferred the sniper rifle, whereas my brother (not Paul, my real-life brother) prefered the pistol and put every upgrades he found on it. in the end, his pistol is as deadly as any other weapon. and still uses pistol ammo, that you can find everywhere.

in DX:IW, you will be able to upgrade your pistol to make it very efficien,t and still not use a lot of ammo like a GEP or a sniper rifle would.

so I really think people will still use the gun

[~DeH~]_LeOn
11th Sep 2003, 14:01
<reply to first post>
Inventory Bug no duh

[~DeH~]_LeOn
11th Sep 2003, 14:04
and yeah,even if gep law and plazma rifle does fit in inventory,
could you walk around with 40 killograms of metal behind your back?and JC does not even have a backpack or anything?where
does he put that law lol

Le`Sauveur`De`Ces`Dames
11th Sep 2003, 15:04
he must have a black hole in his pocket, takes less space

Catman
11th Sep 2003, 16:46
Actually, he uses TARDIS technology stolen from the Time Lords.

Sadokitty
14th Sep 2003, 14:43
Originally posted by Catman
Actually, he uses TARDIS technology stolen from the Time Lords.
Maybe its some kind of thingy like in elite force 2, stuff is compressed and then appears in normal form straight in your hand and ready to use or whatever

Sylvester Ink
15th Sep 2003, 07:55
It's much simpler than that: JC is the man! He has the strength and skills to carry a GEP, a LAW, and a Plasma Cannon all at once! (Not to mention over 40 grenades.) And that "baggy" coat helps keep it all concealed so that nobody suspects a thing. (After all, it ain't there just to frighten off his enemies!) So we can all safely say that JC is freakin' awesome! :cool:

In DXIW, Alex is younger and still in training. He/She doesn't wear a trench coat. (Or sunglasses! :eek: ) So, logically, he/she shouldn't be able to carry quite as much. But a pistol, a tiny-nanite-detonator-that-blows-up-entire-cities, and a chocolate bar should go far. So we can also safely say that Alex will be freakin' awesome too!

There. It's all explained without the black-hole in the pocket or the wussy item compression thingy. HOORAY FOR DEUS EX!!!

.
.
.
.
.

Ahem . . . you will have to excuse me. It's 1am and I have been studying all night. One's mind tends to go a bit . . .

Spoonman
15th Sep 2003, 08:40
Originally posted by Leo
the same ammo idea sucks because no one will use pistols, because they are weak, and that will make game boring [to use one weapon - prefered silenced sniper rifle]. If the weapon won't be awailable early in the game, I still will not use the pistol.
While playing DX for the second or the third time (I don't really remember), I used only the pistol, I've even put a scope and a laser-pointer on it. It was a very great weapon. With no recoil, 10-bullet clip, fast reloading and many other things it was ultra-lethal on expert skill level (which wasn't relatively very point consuming).

On the other hand, I've always dreamt of a way to solve DX not using ANY weapons, hence not being forced to make decicions about inventory space, not to mention tetris :) And it seems like DX:IW is going to give me such an opportunity!

Thank God for preorders! :)

AlteredGlyph
15th Sep 2003, 19:39
You're not kidding, Spoonman, when I played through DX with my "Sniper" Pistol, I could take down anything from a long distance away, althoguh the MJ12 commandos took 2 shots. I'll probably use an uber pistol in DX2 as well, as I'm not going to be killing to many people.

sackme
8th Oct 2003, 12:41
:eek: If what you say is true about there being only 1 ammo type for all guns then my assaultgun shot anything tactic of running in shooting will suck up all of my ammo for all of my guns at once (Not good:eek: ). Also if there was 1 generic ammo type then how would it fit high and low calliber weapons at the same time am I supposed to belive that this is magic ammo that can shrink or grow to fit the gun barel:rolleyes:

Another point i would like to make is that in DX the inventory was 10 squares down so why not get rid of something else (eg 4 slots of G grenades, picks ect:D )


Have u got a gun mines broken? Yes here, BANG, *****!!!!

MaxxQ
8th Oct 2003, 14:25
Quoted from J1M on the Ion Storm boards:


This is how I understand it will work. The exact numbers might be wrong, but you should get the idea:

There are 5 slots for weapons. Any weapon you pick up takes one of these slots. You can carry 5 pistols or 1 GEP, 1 pistol, and 3 batons, or any combination you like.

There are 10 other slots for items. These are a bit ifferent. They hold two types of items:

-Items that take a whole slot themselves like say a fire extinguisher or a biomod upgrade. If you want to carry two of these they will each take up their own slot.

-Items that you can carry a handful or pocketfull of. These include energy cells and medkits. In the biocell or medkit slot you have you can carry up to 10 of each. All of the following combinations will use up two slots:
-1 biocell and 1 medkit
-10 biocells and 10 medkits
-3 biocells and 7 medkits
-10 medkits and 10 medkits (if this is possible)

Hope that clears things up. You can think of it like the old grid system with two grids: one for weapons and one for items, the difference is that everything takes up one square now.

Recent (as in a day or so ago) Ion Storm Q&A:

http://www.computerandvideogames.com/news/news_story.php?id=97205

Quote from above Q&A:


We also really improved the weapon mods system. The first game's weapon mods were basically hidden math modifiers (+7% damage, +10% range, etc.) that weren't terribly exciting.

In Invisible War, we've made their impact much more noticeable. You can mod your gun to do extra EMP damage to bots (spawning a nice blue explosion with every hit), you can mod the bullets to explode on impact for more damage, you can modify your bullets to silently melt panes of glass to avoid setting of alarms, and so on.

Quillan
8th Oct 2003, 16:52
I wonder what he really meant when he said all weapons will use one generic ammo type. Does that mean that there is one type of ammo that fits all weapons, or does that mean that (for instance) you no longer have rockets and WP rockets for the GEP gun?

Cyzada
8th Oct 2003, 17:33
As long as they scale down the number of total slots, there is no difference between the two inventory systems. Sure every gun is taking up one slot but if you only have 10 slots total you are still going to run into some tough decisions but now you dont have to think about how your going to place your items such that they all fit.

Imo the single ammo for weapons thing seems to promote weapon specialization. Provided the weapons are balanced, the differing abstract-practical ammo ratios would even out between the weapons and a character could use any weapon he wanted with no regard for ammo. This simplifies weapon selection due to the fact that there are now less factors to consider. This could be viewed as a "dumbing down" however another thing to consider is that now players don't have to think about what ammo types are found most frequently while designing their characters and are thus more free in choosing what weapons they will specialize in. It can therefore be said that simplifying ammo reserves promotes more open ended character development.

Random
9th Oct 2003, 01:34
From what I can tell, the unified ammo system will still work in much the same way as the old system.

Old system: ammo for assault rifle gets depleted, so you switch to a pistol instead.

New system: assault rifle is depleting ammo quickly, so to preserve ammo you switch to a pistol, which doesn't use as much. It's basically the same.

It seems like realism is the issue that people have with it. But if nanotechnoloy can let you leap buildings and turn invisible, it's not a huge stretch to have mouldable bullets as well. ;)

auric
9th Oct 2003, 03:39
How do they explain the unified ammo idea?

What makes the weapons use same type of ammo, is it the future's weapons are all set to the same clip size, or is the clip/weapons are energy weapons. Which only requires energy as ammo.

Cyzada
9th Oct 2003, 04:33
Well Random for one thing that isn't really a good comparison to use since i have every confidence that the Assault Rifle will end up being an automatic pistol.

Let me use a better comparison. A Pistol might use less ammo per round expended then a GEP gun. However in theory each round from the GEP gun would deal more damage and therefore it would even out over time. 100:10 is the same as 10:1. (of course if the target that you are attempting to destroy is weak or can be removed by one well placed shot then using a rocket to destroy it is overkill)

auric
9th Oct 2003, 04:59
1 problem about the DX Inventory I had is the Dragon's Tooth Sword. In the animation whenever he draws out or keep it back they showed it shrinks to a handle, but in the inventory its 1 x 4
That's not a handle size :)

so I was wondering, can the sword really shrink in? or is it just an optical illusion when he resheaths his sword?

Le`Sauveur`De`Ces`Dames
9th Oct 2003, 07:49
Originally posted by auric
1 problem about the DX Inventory I had is the Dragon's Tooth Sword. In the animation whenever he draws out or keep it back they showed it shrinks to a handle, but in the inventory its 1 x 4
That's not a handle size :)

so I was wondering, can the sword really shrink in? or is it just an optical illusion when he resheaths his sword?

I also thought it shrinked. but they must have thought it could open in your inventory, so they kept space for it

(or it would be a too powerful weapon if it were only 1 space like the knife)

auric
9th Oct 2003, 11:32
So to measure a weapons strength is by its number of slots.

Facinating. :cool:

But its still ilogical, the DTS could be a special weapon, a 1 slot super hth weapon. I wonder, since its nanites keeps sharpening the blade, but also theres no mentioned of the blade being shrinked & rebuild again by the nanites in split seconds.

Oh well, light sabers are still to advance for them I guess.

This is the Nanite Saber. ;)

AlteredGlyph
9th Oct 2003, 16:39
The "igniting" effect is incorrect, according to the description of the sword. It automatically resharpens itself, but it still remains a blade, not a handle when you put it away.

auric
10th Oct 2003, 02:00
So its just for show for all those lightsaber fans. ;)

vick1000
10th Oct 2003, 08:57
Unified ammo is "Straight out of 'Frisco" GAY.:rolleyes:

Le`Sauveur`De`Ces`Dames
10th Oct 2003, 10:28
hmmm I odn't think a choice can be homosexual. (didn't we have a discussion about the use of the word "gay" as an insult?)

and if the developpers thought it would be better, I'm going to trust them, at least until I get to play the game. after that, I will make my own mind.

Trollslayer
10th Oct 2003, 11:24
*plugs in the Catman signal*

SK Denton
29th Oct 2003, 22:03
Not only should we be scared, but we should all think twice about buying this game and supporting Warren's dismantling of an epic game.

From everything I have heard Warren is so worried about story and dialogue that he completly screwed up the rest of the game. Dx gave us the ability customize not only our character, but our inventory as well to suit our play styles, but all of those ways have been taken away to suit the xbox and Warren's need to reach the little kiddies.

In DX we could choose betwen darts that kill or darts that just put you to sleep, but now we just have the standardized ammo, ie one size fits all. In DX we had to make important decisions as to what we wanted to have on our person because things took up space, but now we have the generic FPS - I can carry 10 guns, and 20 items cause they just take up one slot. And for all of you crazy people who say that it is the same or better need to get a clue. Like the example that was given picking up a gep gun was a tough and important gameplay decision given the fact that it took up space, but now if you have just one slot open - hey let's just throw that puppy on our back and keep plodding along. How can removing gameplay decisions like that make the game better? It doesn't !

All it does is make the game less customizable, more predictable, more generic, shorter and more dull! And that "we just removed things that people didn't use" excuse is lame and stupid. Just because you didn't use sabot rounds for your shotgun doens't mean that no one else did and that it is a useless gameplay feature. DX was DX cause of all the customization that affected how you played the game. The only decisions we have now are which faction are we going to join and which aug are we going to install. Woop de doo!!

From everything I have read warren spector cares more about the story and faction decisions than he does about gameplay. It is evident in how he has hacked this game to pieces and made it an equivilent to [insert fps here] with more dialogue. If warren is so interested in story he should go out and write a book cause he has killed this game and it in no way, shape or form is going to reach the epic, grandious levels of DX.

Warren said this game wouldn't be dummbed down - well now we know how much of a freaking liar he is.

Catman
29th Oct 2003, 22:09
On that note, I put this puppy to sleep.

:rolleyes: