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Pentti
28th Aug 2003, 15:02
(Sorry for my bad english!)

I had a look at the screenshots from deus ex 2. Everything looked nice, but the guns, glowing stupid energy guns :(. Look at the shotgun (Is it a shotgun?) that looks like some pipe with glowing holes. It's OK if some gun shows how many bullets there are in the clip, but if all the weapons are like quake 3 arena weapons, I'll be very angry! What is your stance on glowing guns?

agent008
28th Aug 2003, 15:17
i dont mind the blue hud thing it looks cool to me but im not sure about the compass around the center of the screen that could be a problem

the blue crosshairs well i dont think it will bother me that much

well you can think of it this way in the future some guns glow,light up or whatever to make it look futuristic or maybe something the charcter augs have some type of light that hits on the guns to make it seem like they are all built in flashlights:rolleyes:

W.C. Duck
28th Aug 2003, 15:41
I totally agree with Pentti,
in fact I once posted almost exactly the same thread (scroll down the topic list untill you find one titled "guns", started by me).:rolleyes:
perhaps you should read it...




originally posted by agent008:
well you can think of it this way in the future some guns glow,light up or whatever to make it look futuristic

there's absolutely no way that that's ever gonna happen.

agent008
28th Aug 2003, 15:47
hay you never know maybe some of the guys are made by liquid that created the character:eek:

Le`Sauveur`De`Ces`Dames
29th Aug 2003, 15:11
Originally posted by W.C. Duck
[B]I totally agree with Pentti,
in fact I once posted almost exactly the same thread (scroll down the topic list untill you find one titled "guns", started by me).:rolleyes:
perhaps you should read it...


I knew I had already read this somewhere. could anyone please give me an URL to this video, I can't find it

crimson_stallion
30th Aug 2003, 08:44
I agree as well. For me, the more you can relate to a game, the more immersed you get. Soem things you can get away with because they are explained. Other things u cant. Like someone else mentioned, there would be no point in a glowing gun, because if you were hiding in a shadow it would give your position away badly.

Only explaination i can think of is tha teh guns have some type of 'stuff' that makes them glow ONLY to the user. I.e. that it somehow connects with the users vision interface. For e.g. it somehow scans your details, identifies you, and then allows the screen on teh eapon to be calibrated to release light at a particular frequency (which is calibrated to your vision augmentations) so that only you can see the display.

Skul-Gun
30th Aug 2003, 14:37
no. just no. too far-fetched. where's the point in putting effort into a system's design that identifies the gun's owner and makes it glow to that one person? Why does it need to glow in the first place? you know what the real explanation is? there is none.

the fact of the matter is that 'glowy things' = futuristic = cool! The cliche is that apparently we're going to discover some infinite power source for all our new technology, the only drawback being that it makes everything glow.

This is just another dumbed down thing for the console kiddies. I blame Star Wars, stupid lightsabers.

As for the thing about being unable to hide in shadows, i couldn't agree more, but it's not going to be implemented. Look at splinter cell. It claimed to be a game that used light and shadow to it's full potential to allow the player to be unseen in the dark...then they go and slap three glowy lamps on his face! How can he be hidden if he has the equivalent of a very easily seen bullseye on his forehead where enemies can simply shoot at the lights and they get an instant headshot! But nah, it's at a particular frequencythat only the player can see!

anger...building up...urge to kill..rising... ....I'm off to the postal 2 forums!

ps. this post was not directed at you crimson, but your post outlined the perfect bs reason that a publisher may come up with, which makes NO SENSE WHATSOEVER!!!! sorry for going off like this, where's the chocolate?

Lord Outcast
30th Aug 2003, 15:14
Glow-in-the-dark stuff is glowing and bright, but produces little light. With a glowstick, you can probably see stuff about an inch away from the source. Sam Fisher's nightvision goggles and the Mako company's gun collection use the same principle, except the light does not even travel far. That makes no sense in reality, but I for one don't care. Lampheads and glowguns are cool looking, and I for one enjoy such flashiness.

And maybe they will take the fact that glowing guns will not allow you to hide in a shadow. An idea: holster your gun.

*wonders why people argue over the most obscure and ridiculous things*

Skul-Gun
30th Aug 2003, 15:50
because we're human

Catman
30th Aug 2003, 18:03
Originally posted by Lord Outcast
*wonders why people argue over the most obscure and ridiculous things* Because it's safer than trying to argue over things which really matter? ;)

crimson_stallion
31st Aug 2003, 13:22
Originally posted by Skul-Gun
no. just no. too far-fetched. where's the point in putting effort into a system's design that identifies the gun's owner and makes it glow to that one person? Why does it need to glow in the first place? you know what the real explanation is? there is none.

the fact of the matter is that 'glowy things' = futuristic = cool! The cliche is that apparently we're going to discover some infinite power source for all our new technology, the only drawback being that it makes everything glow.

This is just another dumbed down thing for the console kiddies. I blame Star Wars, stupid lightsabers.

As for the thing about being unable to hide in shadows, i couldn't agree more, but it's not going to be implemented. Look at splinter cell. It claimed to be a game that used light and shadow to it's full potential to allow the player to be unseen in the dark...then they go and slap three glowy lamps on his face! How can he be hidden if he has the equivalent of a very easily seen bullseye on his forehead where enemies can simply shoot at the lights and they get an instant headshot! But nah, it's at a particular frequencythat only the player can see!

anger...building up...urge to kill..rising... ....I'm off to the postal 2 forums!

ps. this post was not directed at you crimson, but your post outlined the perfect bs reason that a publisher may come up with, which makes NO SENSE WHATSOEVER!!!! sorry for going off like this, where's the chocolate?

Yeh i know. wasnt suggesting that was a good idea, i was just trying to come up with some kidna of explaination that woudl possibly make it at least make SOME practical sense. Personally id rather noolights at all anyday.

crimson_stallion
31st Aug 2003, 13:25
Originally posted by Skul-Gun
no. just no. too far-fetched. where's the point in putting effort into a system's design that identifies the gun's owner and makes it glow to that one person? Why does it need to glow in the first place? you know what the real explanation is? there is none.

the fact of the matter is that 'glowy things' = futuristic = cool! The cliche is that apparently we're going to discover some infinite power source for all our new technology, the only drawback being that it makes everything glow.

This is just another dumbed down thing for the console kiddies. I blame Star Wars, stupid lightsabers.

As for the thing about being unable to hide in shadows, i couldn't agree more, but it's not going to be implemented. Look at splinter cell. It claimed to be a game that used light and shadow to it's full potential to allow the player to be unseen in the dark...then they go and slap three glowy lamps on his face! How can he be hidden if he has the equivalent of a very easily seen bullseye on his forehead where enemies can simply shoot at the lights and they get an instant headshot! But nah, it's at a particular frequencythat only the player can see!

anger...building up...urge to kill..rising... ....I'm off to the postal 2 forums!

ps. this post was not directed at you crimson, but your post outlined the perfect bs reason that a publisher may come up with, which makes NO SENSE WHATSOEVER!!!! sorry for going off like this, where's the chocolate?

also, couldnt agree more about the spinter cell lights lol. The pattern theyd make would atually look kinda like the tri-target target from teh predator aye? lol. everytime i played SC i would hide in the dark and think "**** the guard is going to see me! how can i turn off these lights". After a while realised they must have been 'invisible'.

crimson_stallion
31st Aug 2003, 13:35
Originally posted by Lord Outcast
Glow-in-the-dark stuff is glowing and bright, but produces little light. With a glowstick, you can probably see stuff about an inch away from the source. Sam Fisher's nightvision goggles and the Mako company's gun collection use the same principle, except the light does not even travel far. That makes no sense in reality, but I for one don't care. Lampheads and glowguns are cool looking, and I for one enjoy such flashiness.

And maybe they will take the fact that glowing guns will not allow you to hide in a shadow. An idea: holster your gun.

*wonders why people argue over the most obscure and ridiculous things*

Because the game is supposed to be realistic in a sci fi kidna way. It's not supposed to be a half life type shoot everything tha tmoves, or a cartoony game, buta relatively relaistic simulation of the future.

Yes, i know it wont light up a while corridor but try this. Turn off all the lights in your house at midnight. Tell a friend to stand at the other end of the room with a microsoft optical mouse plugged in. Will the room light up red? no. Will you see him? Hell yeah. If hypothetically, you were a guard, guarding an important item, and were expected to very sharp mentally and physically, and this was say, an intruder, and you saw there was a red light shining like that, would you:
1) wlak over to explore
2) call for backup, reporting that you ahve seen a strange light
3) turn on a light to explore
4) aim ur flashlight over there
5) fire a few shots at th elight
6) ignore it and stare into space, or continue the conversation with you guard-mate who also ignores it.

Answer, possibly anything but the last one. Why? Becuase any light in a dark shadow will stand out like fireworks. Guards are NOT stupid. This case makes you feel like the guard is stupid, or worry hell see you, when he wont. A game that places much emphasis on stealth and sneaking (and that is heavilly based on dynamic lighting_ should not have such problems.

Dont forget that one of the biggest brag-right that the deus guys are goign on about is how realistic its dynamci lighting system is. Kinda a contradiction isnt it?

Dont mean to sound abusive, but immersion plays a big part in gaming experience, at least in any game aiming to be realistic. No point makign everyone soo realistic when you have silly little things like lights on guns that ruin it all. The only timea light should be on a gun is the (switchable) flashligh that you can mount on weapons atm. Whats the important word there? "Switchable". If swat teams ran around with these lights always on, they wouldnt live long.

Machinax
31st Aug 2003, 15:15
Originally posted by crimson_stallion
Guards are NOT stupid.

Except in Deus Ex: The Conspiracy. Good post, though.

AlteredGlyph
1st Sep 2003, 03:25
Actually, it would make sense for the gun display to be lit up on a speciel genetic ID setup. If you think about it, you still need to see your ammo levels, because enot many peaple have a built in ammo display.

Le`Sauveur`De`Ces`Dames
1st Sep 2003, 07:49
Originally posted by Lord Outcast
*wonders why people argue over the most obscure and ridiculous things*

It's not obscur, They just said it was glowing

W.C. Duck
1st Sep 2003, 16:54
originally posted by Le`Sauveur`De`Ces`Dames
it's not obscur, They just said it was glowing

good point.


originally posted by crimson_stallion
Like someone else mentioned, there would be no point in a glowing gun, because if you were hiding in a shadow it would give your position away badly.

that would be me! I was first!

(/me gets of his chair and runs around the room in sheer euphoria)


originally posted by AlteredGlyph
If you think about it, you still need to see your ammo levels, because enot many peaple have a built in ammo display.

If you think even harder you might think of the fact that in reality you also can't see your ammo levels. perhaps it would be a good thing if there would be no ammo indicator whatsoever, because then one has to count ones bullets continuously, which could add a tiny extra dimension to the gameplay (all the small things help).

Le`Sauveur`De`Ces`Dames
2nd Sep 2003, 08:13
in reality you also can't see your ammo levels

Yes, but any REAL hero can deduct the number of bullets left from the wheight of the gun, can't he? I've seen it in a lot of movies. and i'm sure the HUD, or the computer in your brain (or somewhere else) can count how many bullets you fire (that would also mean any ammo-counter on the gun would be useless, by the way)

The_Guided
2nd Sep 2003, 12:17
quite right, But if any of you have actually been to a firing range and were firing with others around you that were also firing you will notice that when concentrating on your target you will not notice how many bullets you would have fired and with the other people firing (which would happen in a gun fight) you wouldn't be able to count your shots audibly and as i said you would be so concentrated on your target that you couldn't count the muzzle flash or the number of times you pressed to the trigger (or button). Plus in the real world if picking up an dead enemy's weapon how would you know how many bullets were in the clip?
personally i would prefer the bullet count on the HUD not on the gun (as it came in use in DX and any other shooter/rpg/action game that involved guns) leave the the AI's to count the bullets for themselves and let us have the privelege of not having to.

Zioxx
2nd Sep 2003, 14:51
Remember the glowing sword on DX1? Huh?

I don't mind glowing guns. But if all my guns glow, well I'm not sure about that... :eek:

exo
2nd Sep 2003, 18:07
Hi this is a game?

Takes place in the future?

Not supposed to be reality?

Yah.

A glowing shotgun glowing or not glowing is still gonna make someone's head explode.

If they want to put forth the effort to make some of the weapons glow, great. Instead of having a flashlight attachment your gun will just glow so you can see. Now this could be a double edged sword because if you can see, your enemy can see you. Same goes with if you had a flashlight attachment on your gun. Course you can turn off flashlights.. and maybe even turn off the glowing feature for the gun... and now I'm rambling.

Bottom line. Glowing or NOT glowing it's just a cosmetic feature. If you can't get past that and don't like it enough to actually start a thread complaining about it, you shouldn't play the game period.

btw, stay away from Tron 2.0. All the weapons in that game glow. Beware.

PDenton
2nd Sep 2003, 18:32
I think that glowing guns are pointless. I mean with dynamic lighting and AIs that are meant to resopond to you differently depending on the amount of ligth in the room, a glowing light would just be too obvious.:rolleyes: Maybe you have to put your gun away before you can move stealthily.:(

On the topic of an ammo counter. Surely if his whole body is wired up with nanites and augmentations then he could simply use them to count the number of shots fired and evaluate the number of remaining shots from the weight of the magazine. Then it could be shown on his retinal implant. There is no need for ammo counts on the gun!:mad:

The_Guided
2nd Sep 2003, 18:49
Come on it's getting late lets finish this one off, all reply. Say yes for glowy guns and No for no glowy guns same goes for the ammo count on the guns. Or you can say undecided.

i'm not sure about the glowy guns, i mean it's like having lights in your pc case, they look cool but there is no need for them and it sort of lets the stealthy side of the game down for realism.

So for the glowy guns i'm Undecided

but for the ammo count on the gun a definate No it doesn't even look cool for that oh so great cool factor of the game:cool:

exo
2nd Sep 2003, 19:55
I was looking around for these glowing gun screenshots.

none.

There was a gun with a row of little ducts that had light coming out of them, but if that's what you're complaining about this has got to be the stupidest thread I ever participated in.

Deus (Seraph)
2nd Sep 2003, 20:00
Just for another side of view: glowing means "energy needed" one way or another. Also there needs to be a device that glows - both of this points to more cost for the user and for the manufacturer (this one right?) What for? Maybe there is a Conspiracy involving the light & energy corporation, maybe that's the reason DX 1 hat no Day scenes!
On the other hand automatic bulletcounting attached to the weapon is something that actually makes sense (remember, these weapons are not for only use of nano - augmented agents).
By the way with glowing weapons I would always fear to be detected (as I did with the Dragon's Tooth, so I turned it off when I wanted to hide)

The_Guided
3rd Sep 2003, 08:35
There was no need to hide wih the dragon tooth tucked away (I always found it fun to jump out and whak guards and them funny men that first meet you at UNATCO HQ with it), something to do with dynamic lighting and intelligent AI's in DX:IW will make the guards see any difference in light.

If it would make sense to have an ammo counter on the guns, why don't they have an analog version of it to stop it glowing (still think that no ammo counter on the gun at all is better though)

exo
3rd Sep 2003, 08:39
It's stupid to even think that it actually matters. Those glowing little ducts are so frikkin miniscule you'd have to be the most anal ******* to even think they make a difference.

Hey btw your EYES GLOW. My god, eyes shouldn't glow! go start that thread too.

Le`Sauveur`De`Ces`Dames
3rd Sep 2003, 09:38
Oh my god, since I changed my toothpaste, my TEETH glow!! does that mean Alex can't smile?

Pentti
3rd Sep 2003, 12:25
Instead of using a gun as a flashlight and make the enemies see you, you could just use nightvision goggles.

The ammo monitoring system can hopefully be turned off.

I don't think there is any good reason for the weapons to glow.

The_Guided
3rd Sep 2003, 13:49
who took off my thread? entitled "the eyes glow? they shouldn't glow!" or somewhere along them lines. Quite frankly i'm disgusted *s******* listen to vangelis - conquest of paradise and then you'll understand (don't listen to that i'm lying)

murka390
3rd Sep 2003, 14:33
NOOOO!!! to glowing things :eek:
people expect a quite realistic future-like gameplay... and NOT some supermario with glowing superman eyes, weapons etc.

W.C. Duck
3rd Sep 2003, 14:57
originally posted by exo
It's stupid to even think that it actually matters. Those glowing little ducts are so frikkin miniscule you'd have to be the most anal ******* to even think they make a difference.

you're not making it any easier, but I'll try to reply to this in decent english.

the following point has already been posted so many times I'm quite surprised you haven't already read it (or maybe you have, and just don't believe it - choose whichever you like): even the smallest duct that emits light will stand out in an otherwise dark environment. now when the AI of DX:IW is properly developed, guards should notice some blue glowing things that weren't there before, so the glowing guns should immediately give away your position.

in reality, there will never ever be a gun with lights on it. so all the people hoping that DX:IW will be as realistic as possible don't want the guns to have lights on em. all those people you just called stupid, that is.

next time, think before you post something, and there's absolutely no need to go around calling people names.

blath
3rd Sep 2003, 15:01
hmm so if i'm being stealthy do i have to close my eyes?? that's not good! :eek:
mayb shades will do the trick- i hope

as for the guns- lights are superfluous and in a stealth game they are not just aesthetic and otherwise pointless- they'l give you away completely. And if they don't then that's a nasty exclusion from the normal realism of the game :confused:

mr blath

Frost Giant
3rd Sep 2003, 17:27
Originally posted by Deus (Seraph)

By the way with glowing weapons I would always fear to be detected (as I did with the Dragon's Tooth, so I turned it off when I wanted to hide)

I have tested the Dragon tooth sword when hiding in Versalife from some guards who were hanging out in some sort of gaming room. I lured them out to where the ROM access interphase chamber was and hid from them. At first they did not see me but when I activated the Dragon tooth sword they saw me

W.C. Duck
3rd Sep 2003, 17:59
I have actually used the Dragon's Tooth as a light, at times I was out of BE.:D

Frost Giant
3rd Sep 2003, 18:02
Me too:)

murka390
3rd Sep 2003, 18:08
yeah, this is good, when some SPECIAL weapons like dragonstoothsword or smthn... glow... but if everything glows ...
then it would be just childish

Frost Giant
3rd Sep 2003, 18:16
I agree with you. Because if you choose to be stealthy you would be banned from using weapons because they all glow:mad:

Frost Giant
3rd Sep 2003, 18:18
OOPs, I'm a Frost Giant, and my anger is causing me to melt. LOL:D

exo
3rd Sep 2003, 21:11
Here's the thing.

I'd rather they spent development time on more important things than some cosmetic look that you have some sort of problem with.

Lemme see, spend a week fixing the guns or create more content for the players?

hard choice.

What your complaining about is such a small thing compared to the WHOLE of the game I find it totally laughable that you want them to waste time and change it.

Cost effective? no. Will it stop you from buying the game? If so I'm glad because fans like you are wretches.

Why bother? I mean what's the point? Should they remove the eyes as well?
It's just so pointless considering there could be better time spent on the actual game besides some little glowy thing on some of the guns. if not ONE of them.

Btw, I like the glow. Even if I didn't I'd still wouldn't care because it's such a minor detail.

Deus (Seraph)
4th Sep 2003, 13:53
First: I would buy it, even with glowing weapons - in fact it is DX and that's the first thing that counts.
Second: It is NOT a minor detail - because it changes the athmosphere of the game. In DX there was this dark, serious athmosphere, and only two weapons that had something glowing on them (Plasma gun and Dragon's tooth). When then suddenly everything glows, it changes the athmosphere in the direction of a "comic" look. - and in my opinion the athmosphere was one of the things that made the original great.
Third: I think it would not take much extra time to change the weapons - why? Because there is a graphic - design team (normally), and a team for story, and so on. That means they could work on both things - without loosing time.

exo
4th Sep 2003, 18:12
So you'll still buy it even if the glow is in?

Good enough then.

Proof enough it's a minor detail.

Skul-Gun
4th Sep 2003, 22:26
*starts preparing to work on the no-glow mod*

exo
5th Sep 2003, 05:59
Would it help to say that nano's specially tailored for you allow you to see glow in the dark things on items?

eg. phosphourant paint, nano paint, certain power sources glow when under your examination?

The_Guided
5th Sep 2003, 09:47
if you were an enemy gurd with a gun, would you carry a gun with stuff that glows just for the agents that are stealthily sneaking up on you? no. You would try to keep as low a profile as possible, its the same with the agents (you as the player). So that expanation you just gave wouldn't make sense (picky i know, but worth a rant).

exo
5th Sep 2003, 22:36
Hi read my last post?

Yeah. Read it again.

God From Machine
5th Sep 2003, 23:05
I was just looking at some game play movies that were posted in the last couple of days.

If you look at the guns the player uses, i know the res is not very good but, you can easily tell that the guns used in these movies do not glow at all. It is the same pistol seen in many screens but here there are no blue words or markings on it.

Just thought that i would point that out. Maybe they will be normal guns after all.

God From Machine
5th Sep 2003, 23:06
fprgot to say that the movies are on ign.

Lawnboy360
6th Sep 2003, 16:54
http://mediaviewer.ign.com/ignMediaPage.jsp?channel_id=59&object_id=15304&adtag=network=ign&site=pchub&pagetype=medialist&page_title=Deus+Ex%3A+Invisible+War

"Streaming Videos
Free for All Readers
September 4, 2003"

---------

From what I've seen so far it's not the E3 stuff, and the infolink pop-up is much smaller

W.C. Duck
7th Sep 2003, 20:01
originally posted by exo:
Would it help to say that nano's specially tailored for you allow you to see glow in the dark things on items?

come on, try a little harder! I know you can do better than that.

Trollslayer
8th Sep 2003, 02:46
First, a much worse problem occured in DX1 with the AI. I can think up of some moments of where i was visibly in their field of view and got ignored by them. I also remember LAM's being flashy, yet enemies ignored them - why isn't anyone commenting on that one? Riiight...

Second, its about gameplay, not about being anal. The guns, no matter how glowing they are, are not there to be detrimental to the game. Chris Carollo said in an interview that, and i quote,


Most AI's are very digital in their perceptions of the world: You're either in their view cone or not. The AI for Deus Ex: Invisible War and Thief 3 is much more analog. Our AI's take into account darkness, distance, view cone, peripheral vision, visual acuity, and time (that is, how long they are looking at something before they "see" it). Also, they're constantly listening to sounds in the world, all of which take into account the actual level geometry. So sounds travel down hallways and through windows, giving the AIs appropriate directional cues. All of this comes together to form AIs that are regularly interacting with the player in the interesting gray area between being oblivious to and being fully aware of the player.

So what if they don't detect your flimsy light on a gun? Does that hamper your gameplay experience? Only of you're too anal about something to the point of wanting to ruin the game with ridiculous flaws which aren't even flaws. Splinter Cell also had Sam Fisher using his 3-eye night vision goggles. Did anyone complained his goggles' light wasn't detected? Did anyone complained that the original DX's laser sight was completely disregarded by enemies?

Regardless what we have here is compromise between gameplay and fun. If the enemy AI would detect any possible light on your gun, you couldn't probably engage in pre-emptive combat from a distance. You probably wouldn't be able to use laser sights. Enemies would avoid LAMs glued to walls. So how would that break combat? Im sure you're clever enough to figure that most (if not all) preeemptive firearm attacks would be rendered useless. In the end i think Spector intelligently realises that the aesthetic flavour of something like small, occasional lights in weapons' design SHOULD NOT make AI more aggravating. All i need is to know they can detect ME, not my weapons. Wheter i'm holding guns or not, i'll be detected by their field of view all the same. Furthermore, any light the guns may have certainly won't be projected, but rather, contained. That means that pointing a gun with occasional lights on it will NOT be the same as pointing a hand cannon with a gigantic searchlight. This means any light from them will be short, and won't go far.

In the end, anyone that tells you that enemies should detect you by the flashiness of your weapons doesn't know what makes good gameplay.

Third, its a game, people. We play games for entertainment and to forget about reality. Why complain that game X doesn't have realistic Y factor? :rolleyes: Really. People argue about possible, as-of-yet-without-proof-of-existence massive LEDs or flashy lights all over weapons, and fail to criticize the fact that you now conveniently acquire enemies' inventory items by just running over them. Thats a much more, shall we say, insulting convenience than weapons with small lights to the overall gameplay.

But of course, LIGTHS AR TEH EVIL WICH MUST B CLAREAD FROM TEH LAND!"!!""!!"1211!

exo
8th Sep 2003, 05:41
Well said m'boy.

You put words too which my mind thinks but cannot speak due to growing frustration that you have to actually explain yourself when they should've already figured it out on thier own.

I'm glad someone is at least on the same brainwaves as I.

Thanks, I really do feel a lot happier now that someone has joined the thread with the same mind.

Le`Sauveur`De`Ces`Dames
8th Sep 2003, 07:52
Did anyone complained his goggles' light wasn't detected? Did anyone complained that the original DX's laser sight was completely disregarded by enemies?

errr yes, one person did. I don't remember on which thread, though.

apart from that, I totally agree with you

crimson_stallion
8th Sep 2003, 11:38
Originally posted by Pentti
Instead of using a gun as a flashlight and make the enemies see you, you could just use nightvision goggles.

The ammo monitoring system can hopefully be turned off.

I don't think there is any good reason for the weapons to glow.

Wouldnt be great in real life. If a person turned on a light youd be permanantly blinded. :P

crimson_stallion
8th Sep 2003, 12:29
Originally posted by exo
Here's the thing.

I'd rather they spent development time on more important things than some cosmetic look that you have some sort of problem with.

Lemme see, spend a week fixing the guns or create more content for the players?

hard choice.

What your complaining about is such a small thing compared to the WHOLE of the game I find it totally laughable that you want them to waste time and change it.

Cost effective? no. Will it stop you from buying the game? If so I'm glad because fans like you are wretches.

Why bother? I mean what's the point? Should they remove the eyes as well?
It's just so pointless considering there could be better time spent on the actual game besides some little glowy thing on some of the guns. if not ONE of them.

Btw, I like the glow. Even if I didn't I'd still wouldn't care because it's such a minor detail.

OK. Firstly, i dont want them to change it. Whats done is done. What i'm saying is they shouldnt have put lights on guns int eh first place, and hopefully with the next game they will learn from this and make guns without lights.

With the dragon tooth it was cool because there was a REASON for the sword to glow. There was an explaination for it. It made sense. Also, you could jsut use a different werapon if you didnt want the glow effect. You shouldnt have EVERY gun glowing.

Next point: you are saying "fans like you are wretches". Ok, since when does being a fan or something mean you have to think it is perfect? If you are a fan of deus ex, and a sequel is coming out, then it is you right and possibly your responsibility to voice it if there are soem aspects you dont like. Just because you dont agree, doesnt mean you are a better person. Who are you to suggest that you are 'right' and everyone else is 'wrong'. What we are saying are recommendations and opinions, and eveyrone has different opinions.

We are making our points, we are saying WHY we think there shouldnt be guns, we are making points and backing them up. All you are saying is "its such a small issue, and i lke the lights" (not precisely, but that is the point you are making). If you back it up and say WHY lights are a good idea, maybe we will take you response more.

No, i dont like the lights. At the same time i dont want them to waste time changing them now. As for the eyes, I dont like them glowign either. IMHO it looks stupid and comical. Makes characters look more like strange radiated zombies then people. So to answer that question, yes it think they are wrong as well.

People are tlaking about not liking the interface, and other such issues. There is ntohign wrong with that. If nobody voiced their criticisms about things, then nothing in the world woul dever improve. You must identify a problem before you can fix it.

Finally, before you start namecalling, and telling us who is and who isnt a worthy fan, please actually THINK about what we say. If you dont like what we say, and have no reason FOR not liking it, then just dont say anythign until you DO. Or at least state your opinion and leave it at that.


So you'll still buy it even if the glow is in?

Good enough then.

Proof enough it's a minor detail.

No. Proof enough that we do not expect the game to be annoying. If the game was absolutely pathecitc, but had a good storyline, then id probalby buy it jsut for that. Does that mean the whole game engine and interface is a minor detail? no.


Would it help to say that nano's specially tailored for you allow you to see glow in the dark things on items?

eg. phosphourant paint, nano paint, certain power sources glow when under your examination?

Not really. It would make it fit, but would make it sound stupid. Why? Because whats the point? Each gun would have to be tailored specifically for the person who uses it. I actually fist mentined that concept (i think). Not because I thoguht it was a good reason, but because i couldnt think of any other half decent one. It woudlnt be worth the effort of gun companies to make such items on their weapons just to essentially make them look nice. If you were a gun manufacturer, would you spend research&development on making your wepon operate better or makign it look better with bright lights? The whole thing just has NO purpose. I'm sure it would be easier for them to make weapon models that dont glow anyway, so they have wasted time making them look pretty when its pointless and jsut distracts from the immersion.

Finally, from screens, some of the lights seem quite small. Not as big as i thought they were the first time i saw the pics. If they stay that way, then it isnt too bad. Just that i know in the original deus ex game (and some other games) i have hidden in the dark wiht a weapon of some type that lights up (e.g. prod) and had a guard walk past, and ive jsut been sitting there almost expecting him to see me and stat attacking. Even though i KNOW they dont see th elights, it still happens. It's like conscience telling you that this is what SHOULD happen, and that them not seeing you is not right.

Now, to trollslayer, I get your point. You made the same idea as exo, but at least you backed it up some. Sorry to exo if you backed yours up, but if you did back it up decently i didnt see it. Back so trollslayer - i agree that AI shouldnt see you everytime you ahve a gun out. This is why i think guns shouldnt have lights :) And yes, I know games are made to take us out of reality, but some games are intended to be realistic in execution. Think about games such as medal of honour. Part of why it was so immersive was because it had great sound, great graphics (at the time) and because it really looked and felt real. If it was set in teh future instead of WW2, and had similar affects, it would still be immersive like that. If it was set in teh future with these effects and had lights on guns and people with glowign eyes, it would probably feel abit less immersive. If MOH wasnt immersive, it would have been nothing.

I can think of other games that had flashy lights that were immersive, but most of them were not really targetec at realism. One that instantly springs to mind is Halo. Thinking about halo, considering that it was one of th efirst games on xbox, Deus ex 2 should be able to at least approach its level of graphics/physics quality etc. Now that I think about it the lights on the guns in Halo didnt worry me in dark areas, but for some reason they did in deus ex.

crimson_stallion
8th Sep 2003, 12:32
Originally posted by Le`Sauveur`De`Ces`Dames
errr yes, one person did. I don't remember on which thread, though.

apart from that, I totally agree with you

Also, yes i did :P. I recall one game where you would be seen if you used laser sight (i think it was mods for swat3, because the laser wa based on a flashlight) and it made it feel more relaistic. I tended to think "stupid terrorist, doesnt he see he has a red laser in his eye ! ". But ahh well

crimson_stallion
8th Sep 2003, 12:36
Finally, sorry if I offended anyone with any of my posts (in any thread). I sometimes try to strongly illustrate my point. I generally have respect for others and their opinions, but it at times doesnt come across that way. :cool:

Trollslayer
8th Sep 2003, 14:13
Originally posted by crimson_stallion
Now, to trollslayer, I get your point. You made the same idea as exo, but at least you backed it up some. Sorry to exo if you backed yours up, but if you did back it up decently i didnt see it. Back so trollslayer - i agree that AI shouldnt see you everytime you ahve a gun out. This is why i think guns shouldnt have lights :) And yes, I know games are made to take us out of reality, but some games are intended to be realistic in execution. Think about games such as medal of honour. Part of why it was so immersive was because it had great sound, great graphics (at the time) and because it really looked and felt real. If it was set in teh future instead of WW2, and had similar affects, it would still be immersive like that. If it was set in teh future with these effects and had lights on guns and people with glowign eyes, it would probably feel abit less immersive. If MOH wasnt immersive, it would have been nothing.

I can think of other games that had flashy lights that were immersive, but most of them were not really targetec at realism. One that instantly springs to mind is Halo. Thinking about halo, considering that it was one of th efirst games on xbox, Deus ex 2 should be able to at least approach its level of graphics/physics quality etc. Now that I think about it the lights on the guns in Halo didnt worry me in dark areas, but for some reason they did in deus ex.

A good opinion which i respect. Its just that sometimes people can focus too much on the shallower aspects of design in games, but then consider their flaws non-existant or k3wl (like neverminding you'll get enemies' equipment just by walking over their corpses, or wanting to see Alex punch enemies and have them fly into the air because of the punch (as seen on the Punching thread)). I for one have stated time and again why i don't think punching in DX:IW should be included, but at least i accept the opinion of others that state it should. In the case of the flashy weapons, its the same. I accept that some people may not like it, as much as i expect others to accept people liking it, or not being bothered by it. Like i said, they aren't that detrimental to gameplay, because you'll be seen regardless of your weapons' lights. But being seen by enemy's lights would also open up a new can of worms - if enemies can see you with flashy weapons, so you too can see them. That would mean you could probably pick them *from* a distance, or worse - imagine if people started asking for enemies to confuse themselves. Hey, its dark, a terrorist sees some light on the corner of the dark room and shoots, in fact killing a comrade. This would ruin the gameplay. You see, i like a certain degree of realism in my games, but the more we worry with realism, the less it becomes a game. The more one tries to add realism, the more factors one will have to worry about - and even if slightly realistic in some aspects, i don't want DX:IW to be a one-shot-to-the-head-and-you're-dead-so-hide-those-flashy-weapons-under-your-baggy-coats-that-make-you-look-bigger-than-what-you-really-are-themed tactical shooter. For short, i want DX:IW to be the so-called thinking man's shooter, or sneaker/shooter, providing me with the ability to make realtime decisions and giving me a type of game that rewards me for playing against its own genre; i don't want it to be a target practice-fest against people with bad fashion awareness about their gun colours.

*Alex sneaks around*
*Alex hears the sound of a Plasma Streetsweeper being cocked behind him*
Terrorist: "Oh lookie here, the pansy has a pink neon gun!!! You sick monkey..."
*Terrorist opens fire*
*Alex dies*
*Player relaods and decides to use a blue-glowing gun to avoid future hassles of fashion-aware armed terrorists*



Finally, sorry if I offended anyone with any of my posts (in any thread). I sometimes try to strongly illustrate my point. I generally have respect for others and their opinions, but it at times doesnt come across that way.

*Gives thumbs up* :cool:

exo
8th Sep 2003, 14:41
I'll quote myself.


Originally posted by exo

You put words too which my mind thinks but cannot speak due to growing frustration that you have to actually explain yourself when they should've already figured it out on thier own.


I like my posts nowhere near resembling a type of formal letter. Essay. Or actual paragraph and avoid it at all costs. Why? because forum posts like that make me fall asleep half-way through typing or reading.

Your canker with the game is a shallow detail, which made me think... "There is no way I'm going to fully explain to this guy why it is stupid to worry about a small thing without calling him an idiot, making this thread go down in flames".

I didn't believe you deserved the effort. I played lazy yes, but that's what forums are for, time fillers while you're at work. Not a full time job where you should be pro at displaying your thoughts. I'm just glad you understood someone elses point who was of like mind to me that thought you were worth the effort.

Trollslayer
8th Sep 2003, 14:52
Originally posted by exo
I'll quote myself.



I like my posts nowhere near resembling a type of formal letter. Essay. Or actual paragraph and avoid it at all costs. Why? because forum posts like that make me fall asleep half-way through typing or reading.

Your canker with the game is a shallow detail, which made me think... "There is no way I'm going to fully explain to this guy why it is stupid to worry about a small thing without calling him an idiot, making this thread go down in flames".

I didn't believe you deserved the effort. I played lazy yes, but that's what forums are for, time fillers while you're at work. Not a full time job where you should be pro at displaying your thoughts. I'm just glad you understood someone elses point who was of like mind to me that thought you were worth the effort.

I kind of agree with you there. I usually only write long posts when i want to explain something in detail, because other times i just post quick things. I just write long posts sometimes because i believe its better to, at times, get it all out and explain things the best i can so i can avoid misunderstandings or misjudgements of what i say later on. But usually, save for rare exceptions in the form of forums where we're supposed to actually write a lot about what someone thinks, i tend to keep it short because i know most people won't care. Of course, this isn't the case with crimson_stallion - he cares :D

Peace :cool:

Frost Giant
8th Sep 2003, 19:11
I have examined some screenshots at Gamespot that feature weapons that do not glow. Here are the links:

http://www.gamespot.com/xbox/rpg/deusexinvisiblewar/screens.html?page=84

http://www.gamespot.com/xbox/rpg/deusexinvisiblewar/screens.html?page=79

http://www.gamespot.com/xbox/rpg/deusexinvisiblewar/screens.html?page=78

http://www.gamespot.com/xbox/rpg/deusexinvisiblewar/screens.html?page=71

If the game has weapon mods like in the original, that sniper rifle could be silenced for covert action. Just wanted to bring that to attension because some people seem to believe that all the weapons will glow.:D

PDenton
8th Sep 2003, 19:28
I think Frost Giant may have a point. Not all of the guns have flashy lights on them. Perhaps the lights are supposed to signify something, ie that they are energy driven guns rather than bullet based. :D

Either way I don't like them because this is supposed to be a game very much based around realism. :( But what difference does moaning about them do. Ions Storm have already made the guns and I doubt that anything we say in this forum is likely to convince them that this is a major enough issue to spend their precious hours on changing.:p

exo
8th Sep 2003, 21:28
"Either way I don't like them because this is supposed to be a game very much based around realism. " - PDenton

Yah... I mean nano's are real... people who can jump 15ft in the air, see through walls are believable.

but no, guns with glowing ammunition are not!!!

crimson_stallion
9th Sep 2003, 09:35
Originally posted by Trollslayer
I kind of agree with you there. I usually only write long posts when i want to explain something in detail, because other times i just post quick things. I just write long posts sometimes because i believe its better to, at times, get it all out and explain things the best i can so i can avoid misunderstandings or misjudgements of what i say later on. But usually, save for rare exceptions in the form of forums where we're supposed to actually write a lot about what someone thinks, i tend to keep it short because i know most people won't care. Of course, this isn't the case with crimson_stallion - he cares :D

Peace :cool:

No probs :) I often like to be thorough when I say things. I've learned that when you arent thorough, you generally have to say things a hundred times. I generally prefer to say it once, and say it properly.

To be honest I just have wayy to much time on my hands :S get carried away sometimes. Sorry !

Prohass
9th Sep 2003, 09:49
oh lordy this thread is stupid. Glowing lights should be factored into the AI? Okay, everyone has allready posted big arguments with lots of valid points.

But get over it, seriously, get the god damn hell over it. Crimson, shut up, just shut the god damn hell up. If you refuse to get over it, I will smash a glowing light on your head. Its game AI, not real AI.

crimson_stallion
9th Sep 2003, 10:02
Originally posted by Prohass
oh lordy this thread is stupid. Glowing lights should be factored into the AI? Okay, everyone has allready posted big arguments with lots of valid points.

But get over it, seriously, get the god damn hell over it. Crimson, shut up, just shut the god damn hell up. If you refuse to get over it, I will smash a glowing light on your head. Its game AI, not real AI.

1) I wasn't ever saying that glowign lights should be factored into AI, I said they shouldn't be there because they DONT factor to AI, and if they were there they should (if looked at from a realistic point of view).

2) Its game AI, not real AI? AI stands for artificial intelligence. Is there such thing as "real artificial intelligence"? If so i dont think it would be called "artificial" any more :P

3) I just apologised in my last post for going overboard. I did this because I realised it that i was arguing too much about something that is more an annoyance then a problem. I was just about to "get the god damn hell over it" as you so eliquently put.

To be honest I should tell you off for being uneccessarilly rude. Normally I probably would, but that would just create more argument and nonsense, so I wont. I think the arguments here have been blown far enough out of proportion as is. Either way, I tried in my posts to make my points firmly, with as little rudeness as possible. Maybe you should at least 'try' that as well.

I made my apologies, if that isnt enough, you can kiss my :rolleyes: :)

p.s. this post was written mostly light-heartedly, so please do not take it too seriously :P

Catman
9th Sep 2003, 12:40
As Grey Mouser says, it's all fun and games until someone pokes an eye out.

I don't mind folks giving each other a little jab in the ribs now and then, but outright insults cross the line.

Play nice, or don't play at all.

Closing thread since it's gone too far off track.