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garbagefanuk
21st Aug 2003, 21:27
I was finishing SR1 before and i was thinking of the ending of SR2 and what we see in BO2...

It occurs to me that since Vorador survived Kain wouldn't need to resurrect Raziel and his brothers to make his vampire legions. Vorador does it as we see in BO2 where Kain uses Voradors children for his army. I'm thinking that could be a conciquence of trying to alter time at the end of SR2, maybe thats another reason why he fell into the Hylden trap. They need Raziel to form the Soul reaver and if the Reaver isn't changed into the Soul Reaver who knows what events in time that could mess up...

OK i'm really tired as i finished work a few hours ago so i'm just thinking :) Anyone see any errors in that?

TheElderGodofNosgoth
21st Aug 2003, 22:45
As I understand it all the events that occured in Legacy of Kian: Soul Reaver had to occure for Raziel to be in the place that he is in. Raziel by moving through time has not become indipendant of it. Think of it as the opisate of how time is thaught of in "Back to the Future."

garbagefanuk
22nd Aug 2003, 02:32
Thats the point of a paradox... Think of it on terms with u going back in time to kill ur grandfather... U succeed and ur grandfather dies, but how did u go back in time to kill ur grandfather if he was dead?

It did occur but then time was rewritten and the loop was altered so instead of Kain raising his armies from his liutenants, he raises them from Voradors army... But if Kain raised the from Voradors army, how can Raziel go bac in time and alter time with Kain? :) Understand? lol cos i don't

Umah Bloodomen
22nd Aug 2003, 03:05
The easier (and less strenuous) method for Kain to recruit an army would be to utilize Vorador's ability to sire, however you seem to be forgetting that Vorador and Kain were never entirely on good terms. (They *tolerated* each other, and I do use that term loosely).

Vorador is not going to give Kain the means to rule Nosgoth on his own, on account his own view of doing so differs from Kain's, and Kain isn't going to tolerate Vorador bossing him around and trying to get in on what he considers *rightfully* his. There is a clash between these two individuals, as was touched upon in Blood Omen, and I believe this is what we'll discover prompted Kain to seek the ability to sire, so he could omit Vorador from his *perfect world*.

vampire of balance
22nd Aug 2003, 13:01
Originally posted by garbagefanuk
It occurs to me that since Vorador survived Kain wouldn't need to resurrect Raziel and his brothers to make his vampire legions.
Raziel WILL be resurrected!!! Let me explain..
SoulReaver i still present in BO2. For SoulReaver to be created Raz must go back in time and for Raz to go back in time he must be resurrected.

garbagefanuk
22nd Aug 2003, 21:46
i know they tolerate each other but Kain still uses Voradors children.

It wasn't a need to omit Vorador that drove Kain to sire his own children, more along the lines of Vorador was dead and Kain was the last vampire alive so he would have to do it on his own :)

But Since Kain used Voradors armies once and Vorador allowed him as we see in the intro of BO2, and since Kain has Voradors vampires as his army, he doesn't need to bring back Raziel or anyone... argh to many holes and gaps with this time travel thing-a-mijig

Umah Bloodomen
22nd Aug 2003, 22:42
You appear to have missed what I was getting at with omitting Vorador from the picture. At the time Kain *used Vorador's offspring*, he didn't have any other choice in the matter. He was forced to rely on Vorador, and they both had different pro-vampire agendas.

Kain does not want to rely on anyone but himself. That's pretty clear. I believe when Vorador gave the excuse he was weak and couldn't *rouse* himself during BO2, is what made Kain lose whatever respect he had for the ancient vampire, and proved to him that Vorador was unreliable and therefore a liability to him.

Also, you appear to be forgetting that the vast vampiric army we see in the opening FMV of BO2 is basically non-existent during the course of the game. Those that were lucky enough to escape the wrath of the Sarafan, either fled, joined the Cabal, or decided to side with the Sarafan.

Vorador was technically wounded during BO2, not killed, so there's really no pinpointing what caused Kain to learn the feat of siring. I am not disputing that the death of Vorador didn't play a role in the desire to learn to sire, however I still feel it was a decision Kain made even before Vorador was wounded, and lacked the time during the game to get around to it. It does coincide with the ending dialogue involving Kain's *new rule*.

garbagefanuk
22nd Aug 2003, 23:30
Umm i think u have me confused a little, i'll try to clarify:

Wether he had a choice or not we will never know because from the ending of BO1 to the beginning of BO2 we really have no information on what has happened which i hope defiance will explain.

You're correct in Kains wish to rely on himself only but he does make exceptions e.g. him and raziel altering time, he requires Raziel more than anyone else.

I don't think he lost respect for Vorador, because i don't think he really had any in the first place. He saw Vorador as old and weak and gluttonous in BO really. An ancient vampire sitting in his swamp too tired to deal with the humans anymore... In BO2 when Vorador said he didn't have the time to make another vampire army i think Kain saw that as a sign that Vorador really was past it and it would require him to do something about it (i know thats kind of contradictng my own words on Kain using Voradors children and not his own)

I never forgot that the vampire army he used in the intro was all but dead, i simply meant that since Vorador had done it once , he could do it again and Kain could re-use them to conquer Nosgoth.

And lastly i'm not sure what u were getting to on this, i never brought up anything on why Kain learned to sire, i simply sed that as the last vampire in the original BO1 timeline he would have had to create his own vampire legions to conquer Nosgoth, but in BO2 timeline, Vorador can recreate his vampire legions after the death of the Sarafan lord and Kain could re-use those legions instead of siring his own. Hope that clarified what i meant abit more clearly :) but this conversation is cool, keep it going and show me my errors :)

One_Winged_Angel
22nd Aug 2003, 23:59
I hate to butt it, but I can relate to the arguement that Kain would sire his sons whether or not Vorador was gone.

The way I see it, is that Kain definatley has a resentment towards Vorador and visa versa. Eventually though Kain's zealous pride and determination would lead him to create an army of his own, via the six dead sarafan (who seemed to be fairly powerful vampires from the get go) and wage war against his only competetion, Vorador.To me that would add even more irony to Kain's choice to raise Sarafan, as they would still be slaying vampiries, in thier vampiric unlife.

Just my thoughts though.

garbagefanuk
23rd Aug 2003, 02:10
Well that would be valid if Kain raised his sons to fight Vorador but nowhere in history is there anything about Kain fighting Vorador in a war...

Sade Lyrate
23rd Aug 2003, 05:12
Not yet...
Defiance may change this...

lokkagrey
23rd Aug 2003, 10:17
This idea may interest all of you as reguarding Kain's ability to sire. Just before Kain goes to face the Hylden General in BO2, he and Vorador are about to have it out over Kain's killing Umah. I think after the battle (a hint lies in Kain's final speech) with the Sarafan Kain and Vorador go at it. Kain would be the obivious winner and take Vorador's Dark Gifts (probably the ability to sire and teleport.)

If you remember in SR2 when Raz sees Vorador for the first time in the past he says he's only heard tales of the great vampire. It would seem before his ressurection Vorador was all ready dead.

I doubt if any of this well be reviled in Defiance, it might be part of BO3. It something worth thinking about.

plethon
23rd Aug 2003, 14:28
Originally posted by lokkagrey
This idea may interest all of you as reguarding Kain's ability to sire. Just before Kain goes to face the Hylden General in BO2, he and Vorador are about to have it out over Kain's killing Umah. I think after the battle (a hint lies in Kain's final speech) with the Sarafan Kain and Vorador go at it. Kain would be the obivious winner and take Vorador's Dark Gifts (probably the ability to sire and teleport.)

If you remember in SR2 when Raz sees Vorador for the first time in the past he says he's only heard tales of the great vampire. It would seem before his ressurection Vorador was all ready dead.

I doubt if any of this well be reviled in Defiance, it might be part of BO3. It something worth thinking about.

dude there is no BO3 //SR3 or to put it another way lok:defiance *is* sr3//bo3 rolled into one.The franchises are being brought back together as LOK rather than kept as seperate sr//bo titles

Azazel
23rd Aug 2003, 14:43
You don't know if there isn't going to be a BO3, I think even CD don't know for sure.

Stukedogg
23rd Aug 2003, 14:50
No dude, there's been a press release that says that the series has come together under the "Legacy of Kain" title. Sorry dude, no BO3.

Chris Mishima
24th Aug 2003, 17:39
Originally posted by Stukedogg:No dude, there's been a press release that says that the series has come together under the "Legacy of Kain" title. Sorry dude, no BO3.

Blood Omen 2 is titled on the cover, "The Legacy of Kain series: Blood Omen 2." So why couldn't there be a Blood Omen 3 in the future?

Anyway's it's back to the pointless debate at hand...Kain was gonna be able to make vampires of his own with or without Vorador's involvment. I think Garbage was trying to say that since in the original storyline, Kain was the only vampire left and as such was forced to start from scratch with his army. But in the altered timeline he has Vorador's minions at his beck (sp?) and call so there would be no reason to ever make his generals. Right?

Personally, I don't think Kain gave a rats behind if he was using Vorador's army or those made by his own hand. As long as they were vampires and they worshiped him, all was well. Remember Kain made Raziel and his brothers, but they made the armys for Kain to use.

Since we are dealing with an altered timeline all we know about the future is mostly null and void. Plenty of new senarios are opened up like perhaps, now old fashion vampires were alive in SR's time, or when all vampire's of Kain's bloodline started "devolving", all vampires who didn't change were thought inferior and killed off? Maybe they were exiled from Nosgoth? Maybe when the full blooded vampire dies, all of his humanmade brood perish as well, ect.

The only thing we do know is that Raziel and co were still created for whatever reason. Most likely he just wanted beings nearly as strong as himself and completely loyal to stand at his side.