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yubetcha
19th Aug 2003, 13:19
Curious, I clicked on the privacy link at the bottom of a thread, and found a link to Thief 3. For those who don't know... gloves that help you to climb walls! AI that track evidence, perform lip synching and facial expressions! Sign me up! (sigh)I guess I'll always be hooked.

http://www.eidosinteractive.com/games/info.html?gmid=141

Old Man
19th Aug 2003, 16:55
I'm not sure I'm all that crazy about these wall-climbing gloves. I believe there's some skill in recognizing an appropriate spot and also in placing the rope/vine arrows. No matter, I guess. Thief III will be good in it's own way too.

John D.
19th Aug 2003, 18:00
I recently saw the wall-climbing effect on a T3 gameplay video, I think it'll be fun myself.:)

LeatherMan
19th Aug 2003, 21:25
Thank goodness for the ability to choose my own gamestyle: I didn't wear gloves in the past and highly doubt I will wear them in the future ...

Caradavin1
19th Aug 2003, 23:04
I'm so excited about ThiefIII! I reserved a copy two weeks ago. Now I just have to wait......:D

yubetcha
20th Aug 2003, 12:45
Originally posted by LeatherMan
Thank goodness for the ability to choose my own gamestyle: I didn't wear gloves in the past and highly doubt I will wear them in the future ...

Perhaps the gloves will be like other tools... not available in every mission. There are times that I would give my neighbor kid for a rope arrow.

The Shroud
20th Aug 2003, 23:07
Actually, the gloves will probably work as an inherent ability rather than a selectable tool, according to the tidbits over at the ION Storm forum. Personally, I think nothing could be more appropriate for a master thief. Well, barring a glass cutter, of course. This is not to say that rope arrows' usefulness will become obsolete; the climbing gloves only work on brick surfaces (and perhaps some types of rock faces), which rope arrows are unable to pierce, so rope arrows will naturally come in handy when scaling wooden and earthen surfaces or trying to reach elevated areas which cannot otherwise be reached by climbing (such as wooden ceilings, rafters, high windows on smooth-walled buildings, etc). I don't think we have anything to worry about at all.

yubetcha
21st Aug 2003, 12:24
I agree, Shroud. A Master Thief would normally take advantage of anything he could. It sometimes bothers me that I will start a mission without tools, and no explanation for not having them. What's the sense in that? I could understand, if he was in jail... but not starting out in the lower forty acres without so much as lockpicks. By inherent, I guess you mean that they will always be on his hands, and he can't take them off. I wonder if I would rather have a choice, if I were an FM designer (which I am not). I mean, for difficulty levels, if nothing else. But on second thought, I guess an FM designer could just use walls that the gloves won't work on. :)

The Shroud
21st Aug 2003, 21:43
Quite right. Having dabbled with FM design a bit myself on DromEd, I can think of all sorts of ways above and beyond unscalable surfaces to limit the player's exploration (outcroppings on the walls blocking further ascent, unworkable angles, insufficient surface area on ledges, etc). In fact, a good way to come up with methods of confounding climbers is simply to take a look at modern day buildings and structures. There's a reason we don't see delinquints hanging out on rooftops, after all. Of course, there will always be those who will go to any lengths necessary to go where no thief has gone before (spending hours gathering stackable items, utilizing glitch-exploits, devising new climbing methods, and so forth), and for them, I say what the hell. If they're that bent on it, let them have their fun. The fact that every mission has inevitable boundaries which stand a chance of being discovered by determined players doesn't ruin the game's intrigue at all, if our undying fascination is any indicator. But just imagine the flipside -- the enourmous new freedom we'll have to explore the city, climb any building, reach any rooftop. It's a thief's paradise.

Peter_Smith
22nd Aug 2003, 00:53
My reaction is that unlike rope arrows, which are fictional but semi plausible, climbing gloves that stick to stone stretch the limits of credibility too far. They also have the potential to make navigation too easy. Don't bother searching for a tricky route. Just climb the wall. I expect they will be fun nevertheless.

Huntress
23rd Aug 2003, 01:00
This subject had come up once before and I'll give the same kind of response more or less. I don't think I would care for them...ala "Spiderman"! I don't think a Thief (especially in his time of life) would have such a tool. For Clayman's benefit :D possibly a grappling hook would be more feasible? Personally I think it would open up too many areas to explore while trying to complete objectives, etc. I'm certainly in favor of exploring but not so much as that's mostly what your time is taken up doing. Trying to find the right path to get to where you need/want to go? If I want to be an explorer that much, then play a game that is built on that premise...ala "Tome Raider" or "Indiana Jones" IHMO. So I'm not overly happy about this concept but since it's going to be done anyway, I guess we'll just have to deal with it. Ta and Good Hunting!

Squid
23rd Aug 2003, 07:27
Uh, climbing gloves and shoes are historical facts. They were used in the Orient, and were generally called Tiger Claws. They consisted of straps of leather wrapped around the palms and toes with metal tines in them. Ninjas would use them to scale walls and roofs, either stone or wood.

Squid

Peter_Smith
23rd Aug 2003, 17:01
Very interesting, Squid.:) I did a quick Google search, and I found some items called "shuko" (http://www.boxingdepot.com/wp-ni-12.html), which may be the same thing. Looking at these claws, I think they would not work on any shear surface. In stone, you would need to have some thin horizontal surfaces, such as mortar joints, for them to bear weight. It is possible to climb up mortar joints with bare fingers (I have done it), and maybe these claws would improve the situation in very thin joints. Nevertheless, they look extremely dangerous to use. Maybe that explains why they are banned in NY, CA, and MA. :)

Squid
23rd Aug 2003, 22:07
Yep, that's what I was talking about. Their primary use was as a climbing tool, but as with most 'ninja' equiptment, they could be used in multiple ways; in this case, as weapons. That's why they're banned... easily concealable, and very deadly at close range.

You used them by strapping them to your hands and feet and wedging the tips of the tines into any cracks you found. Wood was easier to climb than stone, but could prove problematical when you tried to pull them out. Stone was a bit harder, but the wedges were easier to work with.

Squid

The Shroud
25th Aug 2003, 19:26
Huntress' concern seems to be that there will be too many areas open for exploration to the player. I've already addressed ways to limit the player's exploration if such be necessary to maintain the mission's integrity, so all that remains are cases where the level designers have left the mission open, in favour of creative gameplay potential. If exploration isn't what the player is after, it would seem that the obvious solution is simply to refrain from doing so. The ability to climb is placed at the player's disposal, but it is a choice, not an obligation. Climbing gloves act like potions, or indeed any inventory tool or weapon, in that sense. The difference is, in cases of scaling walls, climbing gloves are a feasible thieving accessory.

Peter_Smith
26th Aug 2003, 02:23
Originally posted by The Shroud
The ability to climb is placed at the player's disposal, but it is a choice, not an obligation. I disagree. I think Huntress is correct in this matter. The presumption in Thief, to date, is that if one can get to a place there may be something interesting there. Even if the development team limits the scope of travel, FM designers are sure to use it to its fullest extent. Having to crawl over every wall to search every ledge for loot might be quite tedious. With ropes, you can look up at the textures and determine immeditately whether access is feasible or not.

LeatherMan
26th Aug 2003, 06:37
Originally posted by The Shroud
The ability to climb is placed at the player's disposal, but it is a choice, not an obligation.
That is, until it is an obligation. ;)

Climbing gloves act like potions, or indeed any inventory tool or weapon, in that sense. The difference is, in cases of scaling walls, climbing gloves are a feasible thieving accessory.
Since the gloves don't appear to be a single/limited-use item like an Invis potion or Holy Water arrows, and since there is no fatigue factor in Thief III (not that I have seen/heard anyway), then there is no limit to how long/far Garrett can climb or remain clinging to a wall. Nearly 75% of that demo level can be scaled with the gloves (it is almost all the same texture that Garrett is seen climbing at the end). Would it be possible to complete a mission without ever touching the ground? Would a mission designer create a mission (fan or original) with that intention? Would that be challenging or even remotely fun?

littlek
26th Aug 2003, 12:33
I know that I get frustrated when working hard to get somewhere or picking open a stubborn door or chest only to find it empty. So I agree with Huntress.....I'd hate to have to scale every wall to figure out if that is what I needed to do.

yubetcha
26th Aug 2003, 12:47
Originally posted by littlek
I'd hate to have to scale every wall to figure out if that is what I needed to do.

That's exactly why the designers should make them nonexistent in some missions, like rope arrows or any other tool. They shouldn't be as much a part of Garret as his cloak. Besides, it should be reasonable. Can you imagine Garret trying to shoot an arrow with those things on? He lets the arrow fly, and cuts his bowstring
:D.

littlek
26th Aug 2003, 19:48
LOL or the gloves stick to the arrow and....well maybe that could be good. Garrett could catapult himself over the wall.

yubetcha
26th Aug 2003, 19:53
Originally posted by littlek
LOL or the gloves stick to the arrow and....well maybe that could be good. Garrett could catapult himself over the wall.


Hoping he doesn't leave the bow behind. LOL
He'll probably have a sore arm for days
:D

littlek
26th Aug 2003, 20:01
Then we'll need a new guard quote...."Musta been ducks."

The Shroud
26th Aug 2003, 22:23
Originally posted by Peter Smith:
I disagree. I think Huntress is correct in this matter. The presumption in Thief, to date, is that if one can get to a place there may be something interesting there.

Well, that may be the presumption of some players. It certainly isn't mine, or that of many who have spent a lot of time and effort exploring areas not meant to be explored. The truth of the matter is, more often than not, the intrigues of a level are confined within the intended scope of travel. There is some deviation from this standard (more present in Thief II than in Thief I, with some areas in The Sword and Blackmail being examples) but not much. In most cases, if there is anything worth seeing that resides outside the normal path of a mission, there is some form of cue or hint suggesting its existence and/or general location (such as the crawl space in Cell Block 4 of Cragscleft and the scroll in the barracks hinting at a possible area to begin a search, or the scattered journals of Felix's troupe and Adolpho's X-marks referring to the Mystic's twin gemstones in the Bonehoard, etc). And that's a reflection of good level design.


Even if the development team limits the scope of travel, FM designers are sure to use it to its fullest extent. Having to crawl over every wall to search every ledge for loot might be quite tedious. With ropes, you can look up at the textures and determine immeditately whether access is feasible or not.

You're right -- that would be quite tedious. But then, scattering loot in strange and unlikely places would be poor level design. That's what it all comes down to in the end: how well the level compliments the player's abilities and inclinations. If loot placement and other such elements of level construction are implemented logically and intuitively, gameplay will be both smooth and engrossing.


Originally posted by LeatherMan:
Would it be possible to complete a mission without ever touching the ground? Would a mission designer create a mission (fan or original) with that intention? Would that be challenging or even remotely fun?

Heh heh. Think: Life of the Party.


Originally posted by yubetcha:
That's exactly why the designers should make them nonexistent in some missions, like rope arrows or any other tool. They shouldn't be as much a part of Garret as his cloak.

I thought you said not having tools in certain missions was something you greatly disliked about past games? Why would Garrett, a professional who always comes prepared by necessity, not take such a useful tool with him wherever he thieves? It wouldn't make sense.


Originally posted by littlek:
I know that I get frustrated when working hard to get somewhere or picking open a stubborn door or chest only to find it empty. So I agree with Huntress.....I'd hate to have to scale every wall to figure out if that is what I needed to do.

Sure, it's frustrating to spend lots of time scaling walls and exploring rooftops, only to find there's nothing special to be found, but really, if you were thinking clearly, how much could you expect to find in such remote areas? People don't store jewelery and flash bombs on top of their chimneys, after all. More than just about any game I can think of, Thief is about using your head. Use good sense, and success follows naturally. Be foolish and careless, and failure awaits you. The level designers just have to use common sense when placing valuables, and players will catch on quickly.

clayman
27th Aug 2003, 02:13
I've had about enough of this Shroud-shinola. :)

The Shroud insists upon disagreeing with, and qualifiying with everyone, and everything, to make an impression.

Who are you, Sheet-ola.....from the T3 design team ? Feh. No need to act so supercilious and pretend to have a real conversation with us....we "like" Thieves; but not those who have their anus stuffed up their own buttocks. ;) ;) :D

You sound far too superior for those you talk to...maybe you should try to dial it down a notch.
Huntress and Peter Smith (and me) and the whole bunch have been here a lifetime.....try to be a bit civil. We don't need talking down to. We've been playing and beating missions since '98........if you can claim the same, try to be a bit modest about it. :)

[end senior member hostility post]

Rommel_1891
27th Aug 2003, 03:17
I must agree with my colleage. :D

Well said Clayman. :)

The Shroud
27th Aug 2003, 03:44
Originally posted by clayman:
I've had about enough of this Shroud-shinola. :)

The Shroud insists upon disagreeing with, and qualifiying with everyone, and everything, to make an impression.

Funny, I always thought I disagreed with people because...well, because I didn't agree with them about something. And you claim you have me all figured out, eh? If my opinions upset you, that is quite frankly your problem.


Who are you, Sheet-ola.....from the T3 design team ? Feh. No need to act so supercilious and pretend to have a real conversation with us....we "like" Thieves; but not those who have their anus stuffed up their own buttocks. ;) ;) :D

So I have not actually been having this conversation with you? I have only been "pretending"? For all your accusations toward my character, you're the one spouting insulting remarks.


You sound far too superior for those you talk to...maybe you should try to dial it down a notch.

This is how I converse on fori. I am not attempting to make an impression (other than simply the points I make), nor act superior to anyone. You obviously are quite offended by the way I write. That does not mean I have done anything of which I should be ashamed. In fact, it seems to me that what is really disturbing you is that I, as a "junior member" don't seem to humble myself before the majesty of your ancient status here.


Huntress and Peter Smith (and me) and the whole bunch have been here a lifetime.....try to be a bit civil. We don't need talking down to. We've been playing and beating missions since '98........if you can claim the same, try to be a bit modest about it. :)

[end senior member hostility post]

As far as the Thief series goes, I have been playing for as long as, and am as much an expert at the game as anyone else here. I have been neither uncivil, nor condescending toward anyone on this board, and your conduct now does not exactly reflect any particular merit in the fact that you have been a member here much longer. If you feel threatened by my indifference toward your senior status, that does not at all concern me, and is neither an appropriate subject to voice on this forum.

yubetcha
27th Aug 2003, 12:46
Originally posted by The Shroud


I thought you said not having tools in certain missions was something you greatly disliked about past games? Why would Garrett, a professional who always comes prepared by necessity, not take such a useful tool with him wherever he thieves? It wouldn't make sense.

I agree that it wouldn't make sense. But designers leave items out of our inventory anyway. They usually don't ask me. And these gloves are new. Maybe Garret can't find them in every store yet :). But I was just mentioning a way to limit Garret, even though I don't agree with using it. The best way is still with architecture.



[i]
Sure, it's frustrating to spend lots of time scaling walls and exploring rooftops, only to find there's nothing special to be found, but really, if you were thinking clearly, how much could you expect to find in such remote areas? People don't store jewelery and flash bombs on top of their chimneys, after all. ...The level designers just have to use common sense when placing valuables, and players will catch on quickly.
But the fact is that designers DO put objects in unlikely places, like it or not. In one mission, a speed potion was on a rooftop, and in another mission on top of a high hedge. I saw it as justification for my being there. The designer wanted me to get there, and perhaps it was his way of telling me. In another mission, I have found a necklace on top of a fence. In yet another mission, I have found a healing potion on the roof of a spa. I wondered how these things could get there, but these things are not the mark of a poorly designed mission. Au contraire. The missions were very enjoyable anyway. These things only involved what... perhaps one half of a percent of the mission. The levels were still well designed. And I have been found playing these missions over and over again. Happily, I might add. And who knows? Perhaps these things could be found there. Remember that the thief world is a different world than ours. The inhabitants could think differently, as far as I know. Whether we would put them there does not matter a lot to me. Perhaps they put them there to keep them out of other inhabitants reach. I can see where a spa would be in possession of a healing potion (perhaps they sell them?) and that a spa would naturally be frequented by many people. Suppose that the owners of the spa put it on the roof to keep it away from Joe Blow. As for the speed potion (and other things I have found) being in unlikely places, I haven't a clue, except perhaps to keep them from Mr. Blow on the street. But it doesn't really matter to me, since this is a different world than the one that I live in, with different people who may think differently. And as long as a few designers put things in unlikely places (as far as we are concerned), then we will always wonder... what's on top of that roof? I wonder if there is anything on that high hedge or fence. And even if there isn't anything there, half of the fun is trying to get there :). I and many others here and elsewhere climb in the Thief world for enjoyment. :)

yubetcha
27th Aug 2003, 12:58
Originally posted by littlek
Then we'll need a new guard quote...."Musta been ducks."

LOL!
I can see it now... a guard says, "Musta been ducks". And Garret, to further convince the guard, quacks
:D

littlek
27th Aug 2003, 13:24
LOL Yubetcha....quack mode!

Hey Clayman....want one of my hormone patches? Helps me during my "hormonally challenged" moments. :D

Shroud - you are right. I am NOT thinking. Crawling around in places where I am not supposed to be can sometimes be rewarding. In a non thief game, I got to an area where I was not supposed to be and was 'rewarded' by a message that said "How did you get up here?" or something like that and then was promptly blown away by the enemy. It was either halflife or unreal. Can't remember the exact game as my memory is also challenged. I enjoy the humor of the designer and relish this in some of the FM's I have played recently.

But I am digging my heels in about putting in mucho effort getting to an area only to find that I have just wasted an hour of my time trying to get there. I can at least be rewarded by Garrett slipping off the roof and falling at Benny's feet!

Benny: Did ya see dem ducks?

Garrett: "Err.... quack, quack."

yubetcha
27th Aug 2003, 14:25
Originally posted by littlek


Benny: Did ya see dem ducks?

Garrett: "Err.... quack, quack."
LOL!

The Shroud
27th Aug 2003, 20:27
Originally posted by yubetcha:
But the fact is that designers DO put objects in unlikely places, like it or not.

Yes, that's true. That's one thing I always disliked about many missions. Not that it actually ruined the missions for me or compromised their design in any significant way, it just struck me as out of place and interfered a bit with the immersion. And according to several other players on other fori, I'm not alone in that. However, just, as you say, these things make up only a very small fraction of a level, they are easily improved. I think part of the challenge in thieving should be learning where and where not to look for loot. There should be a logical method to it, on which a player can learn to rely, rather than making it random and somewhat unpredictable.

Have you ever played Morrowind? I have to say that one of the things which really impresses me about that game is how sensibly and believably the interiors of houses are furnished; if you open a cabinet, you'll find silverware and dinner plates; look in a crate and find stored food and herbs; view the shelves and table, and you'll see candles, cups, ceramic vases, maybe a book on display; and peek in a dresser and you'll find clothing, maybe some jewelery. But not war axes and magical scrolls. Gold is kept locked up in chests and drawars, weapons are stored in trunks or beneath beds, or on top of tall armoires, etc. Everything is placed very realistically. Once in a while, you'll find something out in the open or in an unusual place, but it's usually something easy to imagine happening for some reason: some gold and jewels left on a table in a locked home (probably left by some rogue who recently got back from raiding a tomb somewhere and was counting his treasure), a sword leaning against a wall with some boots nearby (most likely an adventurer who prefers to keep his belongings handy), a desk with a couple scrolls, a few potions, and some alchemy ingredients lying around (probably belonging to some mage who had been busy at work a while earlier), and so forth. I think we'd all benefit if the Thief developers took a few tips from that game.


In one mission, a speed potion was on a rooftop, and in another mission on top of a high hedge. I saw it as justification for my being there. The designer wanted me to get there, and perhaps it was his way of telling me. In another mission, I have found a necklace on top of a fence. In yet another mission, I have found a healing potion on the roof of a spa. I wondered how these things could get there, but these things are not the mark of a poorly designed mission. Au contraire. The missions were very enjoyable anyway. These things only involved what... perhaps one half of a percent of the mission. The levels were still well designed. And I have been found playing these missions over and over again. Happily, I might add.

True enough, but that is precisely the reason players feel a need to scavange every area of a mission (or one of the main reasons, anyhow). I think the best way to solve the problem littlek brought up is to teach players that they can expect to find things in logical places. That way, for those who don't like wasting time and energy exploring the whole level for that last bit of loot, they don't have to. And for those who do enjoy that sort of thing, there could be a lot more interesting incentives put in than loot-hunting. Maybe extra objectives that call for a bit of climbing (a reliable source claims there is a certain archaeologist's journal detailing the whereabouts of an ancient tomb with untold treasures, and that the journal is supposed to have been hidden somewhere in the attic at the top of a very tall tower -- sealed with unpickable locks and mostly unscalable, reached only by way of the Thieves' Highway).


And who knows? Perhaps these things could be found there. Remember that the thief world is a different world than ours. The inhabitants could think differently, as far as I know. Whether we would put them there does not matter a lot to me. Perhaps they put them there to keep them out of other inhabitants reach. I can see where a spa would be in possession of a healing potion (perhaps they sell them?) and that a spa would naturally be frequented by many people. Suppose that the owners of the spa put it on the roof to keep it away from Joe Blow. As for the speed potion (and other things I have found) being in unlikely places, I haven't a clue, except perhaps to keep them from Mr. Blow on the street. But it doesn't really matter to me, since this is a different world than the one that I live in, with different people who may think differently. And as long as a few designers put things in unlikely places (as far as we are concerned), then we will always wonder... what's on top of that roof? I wonder if there is anything on that high hedge or fence. And even if there isn't anything there, half of the fun is trying to get there :). I and many others here and elsewhere climb in the Thief world for enjoyment. :)

And more power to you. Sometimes, the thrill of climbing itself is enough of an incentive for doing it. I do see many of the examples you gave above as simply being cases of overt game design (OGD, as Thirith puts it) and little more. I wouldn't try too hard to rationalize those sorts of things. If one has to strain their imagination to believe something, there's something wrong. And it's the obligation of a level designer to insure that doesn't happen.


Originally posted by littlek:
Shroud - you are right. I am NOT thinking.

Please don't misunderstand; I am not criticizing those who explore unlikely places for loot as being dense thinkers. The fact is, as yubetcha pointed out, designers do put things in strange areas, so those who investigate every nook and cranny are only doing what's natural. I'm only saying I disagree with the level designers' decisions in doing that (at least, often times).


Crawling around in places where I am not supposed to be can sometimes be rewarding. In a non thief game, I got to an area where I was not supposed to be and was 'rewarded' by a message that said "How did you get up here?" or something like that and then was promptly blown away by the enemy. It was either halflife or unreal. Can't remember the exact game as my memory is also challenged. I enjoy the humor of the designer and relish this in some of the FM's I have played recently.

Heh heh, it's good to know they had a sense of humour.


But I am digging my heels in about putting in mucho effort getting to an area only to find that I have just wasted an hour of my time trying to get there. I can at least be rewarded by Garrett slipping off the roof and falling at Benny's feet!

I agree. There should be some form of possible reward for reaching difficult areas. I just don't think loot is the answer. In fact, loot is quite a dull reward for such an accomplishment, in my opinion. This tends to be handled better with the use of "secrets" of some kind.

littlek
27th Aug 2003, 22:03
Originally posted by The Shroud
I think part of the challenge in thieving should be learning where and where not to look for loot. There should be a logical method to it, on which a player can learn to rely, rather than making it random and somewhat unpredictable.


Now that I could handle. :)

Morrowind? I have not played it. Sounds like a great game. Thanks for the tidbit. ;)

If you had not noticed, I resurrected the LAG....you were almost captured by a spider but I remembered that you were skulking elsewhere.

Huntress
27th Aug 2003, 22:53
Well I have another comment to make about "teaching Thieves where or not to look"? I'm afraid that in the scope of playing this game (OM's/FM's) if it can be accessed, you are bound to try and see if something is there...not loot per se but something to be found...a hidden passage/a secret (as you suggested) a clue? As you also noted, not everything is in plain sight :D A door that appears to be unlockable turns out not to be but you've taken the chance to make sure, etc.

Yes humor is a welcome side to this game but that only goes so far. Yes climbing in LoTP was a fun mission and many of us really enjoyed that level...but again you can only have so much of that type as well...not so that Garrett has gloves in every mission to go anywhere that "might" be intriging to see, if that was a path that was meant for him to find? That is the world of Garrett...not knowing everything but to seek and find. So again I say, if it is accessable, it will be searched and so then to my original statement...I think gloves plus arrows will open up "too" many areas to make sure what "might" be there to find.

Of course, we try to think logically...but some levels are not made for logical thinking...think of Constentine's crazy house, etc. LOL There are others but enough to say, this game was made for thinking ppl and consequently since this game was made for more original type of open thinking to work your way through, we cannot be lead to think one way about how to do it...and if it can be climbed/crawled/or wiggled through...we'll try to do it...just to make sure!!! :D So I think Yubetcha's idea of making them (gloves) usable only for a limited time or for a specific mission/purpose, could be an acceptable option (aka vine arrows) rather than an always usable tool?

That's my opinion anyway, whether you agree or disagree, that's why I feel they would not be the best of ideas to put into this game, unless it would be limited use, perhaps? Ta and Good Hunting!

yubetcha
28th Aug 2003, 13:02
Yes, loot found in an unlikely place after climbing is a poor find, as opposed to an informative secret scroll, or some other bonus. Many times, after climbing and exerting much energy, I found a piece of jewelry, thinking "Is that all?". I would rather find something of greater importance, like a scroll with important info. And BTW, no, Shroud, I don't spend a lot of time analyzing why the loot is there. It's just not that important to me. Who knows why Mr. Bumbleson thinks the way he does? :D. (And while we're on the subject of finding something humorous... after picking up umpteen pieces of waste paper from a wastebasket, just once, I would like to see a piece of paper with a finished game of tic tac toe :D. That would probably get a chuckle, partially because I would be expecting something more sinister, perhaps. Maybe even a drop of blood added to the tic tac toe game, suggesting a little anger during the game, although that part wouldn't be humorous, of course. Or maybe it would).
Yes, I have played Morrowind. It is an excellent game for quite a few reasons. And I think that one of the reasons is the logical placement. I have never caught myself wondering why jewelry was on a fence post for anyone to find :). But Thief's strengths in other areas dwarf that gripe of mine. It's a very small thing to me. If there were other problems with Thief, then perhaps this little gripe wouldn't be so little. And every game has its strong and weak points. I too wish that a player was taught to look for loot only in logical places, but now the Thief player is conditioned to look for loot where it shouldn't be. The player will still look in unlikely places as well as the likely. I think it will take many, many missions of only logical placement, possibly involving years, before the player becomes unconditioned, unfortunately. Either that, or get a 7 year old to play :D. But I am talking about the player who is interested only in loot. If the loot was replaced by said scroll, then that would be a good thing, as was already pointed out above in another post. Perhaps a papyrus detailing the whereabouts of a Burrick whose gas comes out the other end :D. (See the Thief Gold game's blooper mission for that one. Hilarious!).

The Shroud
28th Aug 2003, 19:57
Heh heh, okay, good points all. I think we each know where the other stands now. By the way, littlek, good job on resurrecting the LAG. I was wondering when one of you was going to get back to that (haven't seen much from Speedy in a while). I don't imagine 'Shroud would envy your characters' predicaments right about now. Anyway, I'll be glad when they finally get ahold of that Builder-forsaken book and get out of that damned library for good. Heh. Maybe then I can nudge my way into things.

littlek
28th Aug 2003, 22:15
I agree Shroud...time to move on. Trouble is, I have lost sight of the whats, wheres, and whys. I have to revisit the LAG and refresh my memory. But in the meantime, I thought some mutant, magic spider could erupt from my spider bite, kinda like the "Alien" movie. And it provides us with magic climbing gloves so we can climb out of of there. Just kidding. I have no idea where I am going with this. That is the beauty of the LAG! :D

Peter_Smith
29th Aug 2003, 07:12
Originally posted by clayman
I've had about enough of this Shroud-shinola. :)Wise words, O resident curmudgeon!:D


Shroud,

It is standard etiquette on the internet, and anywhere else for that matter, to take it easy, get to know the people you are dealing with, and build their confidence before asserting yourself too strongly. Coming on like the Grand Poobah of all things thiefly will not win you any points here. It does not matter how experienced in Thief you are or think you are. You don't know us, and we don't know you.

So, now I expect to get a big argument about freedom of speech and who am I to express opinions like this about someone who, after all, is just expressing his. We will see where that leads....;)

damdifyno
29th Aug 2003, 12:23
Boy, I have been gone from these forums a long time. Thief 3 is almost here. Can't wait. Now I've been lurking for awhile. But I just hafta say...

I think part of the reason your getting flack, Shroud, is that noone likes a person that acts like a know-it-all or acts like an expert at everything. Noone. Because these are not true. Noone really knows everything or is an expert at everything. That's the way you sound. Fer instance, you claim to be as good at Thief as anyone here. That's a very tall claim. How do you KNOW that. You don't know these people. Not really. Did you see them play? Maybe some are better than you. By your posts, it seems that you need to leearn to be teachable (humility). And not give opinions as if they are facts written in stone. That's my impression, anyway.

Peter_Smith
29th Aug 2003, 17:15
Thank you, damdifyno.:) I couldn't have said it better myself.

The Shroud
29th Aug 2003, 20:30
Originally posted by Peter Smith:
Wise words, O resident curmudgeon!:D

Shroud,

It is standard etiquette on the internet, and anywhere else for that matter, to take it easy, get to know the people you are dealing with, and build their confidence before asserting yourself too strongly. Coming on like the Grand Poobah of all things thiefly will not win you any points here. It does not matter how experienced in Thief you are or think you are. You don't know us, and we don't know you.

Precisely. You don't know me, and I don't know you, nor have I made claims of such. However, there are quite a few people here, it seems, that are prepared to say they know what sort of person I am, and feel it necessary to give me a few pointers. This business about coming on like the "Grand Poobah" and making arrogant boasts this way and that is entirely fabricated. All I've really done is participate in a debate about climbing gloves and offer my stance on the subject. The fact that I happened to disagree about a few things with Huntress and you, and didn't humble myself in doing so, has really irked a few people. As for bragging about Thief expertise, that is just as applicable to Clayman or anyone else who feels it's a pertinent fact that they have been playing since '98. The only one who has been subjected to "talking down to" is myself, by the seniors here.


Originally posted by damdifyno:
I think part of the reason your getting flack, Shroud, is that noone likes a person that acts like a know-it-all or acts like an expert at everything. Noone.

When did I claim to be an expert at everything? Nowhere. That has just been your impression of the way I act. There are some things I am qualified to speak on, as can be said of anyone, and if they arise in discussion, expect me to do so.


Because these are not true. Noone really knows everything or is an expert at everything. That's the way you sound. Fer instance, you claim to be as good at Thief as anyone here. That's a very tall claim. How do you KNOW that. You don't know these people. Not really. Did you see them play? Maybe some are better than you.

How do I know that? The same way Clayman seemed to know they are as good at the game as I am. Their confidence has probably been accumulated over time since they first began playing, and by now, they have achieved enough significant challenges to know that there is little, if anything at all, which they cannot accomplish in this game. There simply comes a point when you know, without doubt, that you're an expert. I don't need to explain that to this crowd.


By your posts, it seems that you need to leearn to be teachable (humility). And not give opinions as if they are facts written in stone. That's my impression, anyway.

I don't think it's necessary to point out which statements I make are my opinions and which are facts, all the time. People can figure that out for themselves. In a debate, it's usually understood that differing points of view are colliding, and not everything can be true at once.

Now, look, everyone who's been offended by my posts -- If I come off as superior, does that automatically mean I'm that way? Are you resolved to go with your first impression and criticize me from there on? Is your opinion enough of a justification for doing that? Or maybe, just maybe, is this 'pompous braggart' image all in your head? Be careful when you judge someone.

littlek
29th Aug 2003, 23:08
Shroud - I may or may not agree with all your statements but that is what makes this forum and everyone that participates so interesting. Most members of this forum are mature adults and do not resort to the banterings that I read on TTLG. Unbelievable what people say about each other over there. Based on what I can "read into" how you write, you are merely logical, precise and to the point. As my hubby would say, {insert West Texas accent) you don't sugar coat it! I respect that.

The Shroud
31st Aug 2003, 04:46
Thank you, littlek. I appreciate your compliments and respect the maturity of anyone who suspends their judgement in such a way. As for the discussion on climbing gloves, I feel each person understands the other's perspective now, so unless any new points are offered, I won't say any more on the subject. I hope also that this nonsense revolving around my perceived attitude can be called finished.

Peter_Smith
31st Aug 2003, 07:16
Clayman, where is your son when his services are so desperately needed?

damdifyno
2nd Sep 2003, 12:17
I stand by what I said. Maybe its in my head, but its in many people's heads, People who haven't even posted hear in this thread. I wonder how it got there :). We ONLY know each other by what is writtten here. Nothing more and notheing less. If you meant that you are an expert, then maybe you could have posted that. That's diffrent than "I am as good as anyone hear". Those are not the same thing. It seems to me that what you claim is diffrent from Clayman and others. They didn't say that they are as good as anyone here. You might be but then again you might not be. You don't really know, wich is my *point*. Fer instanse, did you transmigrate banners? I haven't, but 3 or more people here have. And Judging from past posts in the ghosting threads I would say that some here are exelent. If I might make a suggestion, try ghosting a few missions, do the best that you can ghosting these missions and then check the ghosting threads to see if you did better than they did. Unless you aren't really as good as *anyone* here. You could even post yours. You don't have to do ghosting, of coarse. Just a suggeastion. I'm no good at ghosting, otherwise I would.

littlek
2nd Sep 2003, 12:49
LOL I can't ghost either and I am terrible in Thievery. Must be my halo that makes me so visible! :D

damdifyno
2nd Sep 2003, 14:08
If your trying to say something here thqat I think you are, here then I say "Yeah, we should never never give constructiv critisizm here. God forbid. Noone should ever improove themself.". And if your not saying that, then forget I said this. Sorry bout that.

The Shroud
3rd Sep 2003, 05:23
Shroud,

Give it up. These long argumentative quotes and rebuttals have got to stop. Now.