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Bio Denton
18th Aug 2003, 11:09
In Black & White, the main aspect of development for your character is visual perspective, e.g. black and everyone runs away, white and friendly, black and white, good and evil.

Anyway, this would be a very cool feature in Deus Ex 2, if it is at all possible. Nothing so extreme, but perhaps facial scars and a "mean" look for the black side and .. er.. something else for the "white" side of Alex Denton? This all depending on your interactions with characters in the game.

Example from Deus Ex: Liberty Island, Statue Misison: Kill a bunch of people and get a "black" notch added to your character's personality and a scar on their cheek, maybe knock-out weapons become lethal, I'll shut up.

Just a thought.

Loreleye
18th Aug 2003, 11:55
Wel, I heard better, but a new thought. I think that thing fits much better in the black & white mansion. Though the scar thing is good, no one can take a hit from bullets whitout any marks of it.

I just have to say this. I have played some games, and I where unable to hit the walls, and stuff whit weopens like crawbar, and batons. That stupid. So do please let me do that.
I want to be able to shut down lights to. There is a game where I can do that, just dont remember which one.

chez
19th Aug 2003, 05:08
Sounds like light side/dark side points in KOTOR.

Trevion
19th Aug 2003, 06:02
Originally posted by Bio Denton
In Black & White, the main aspect of development for your character is visual perspective, e.g. black and everyone runs away, white and friendly, black and white, good and evil.

Anyway, this would be a very cool feature in Deus Ex 2, if it is at all possible. Nothing so extreme, but perhaps facial scars and a "mean" look for the black side and .. er.. something else for the "white" side of Alex Denton? This all depending on your interactions with characters in the game.

Example from Deus Ex: Liberty Island, Statue Misison: Kill a bunch of people and get a "black" notch added to your character's personality and a scar on their cheek, maybe knock-out weapons become lethal, I'll shut up.

Just a thought.

Hmm -- except for the weapons thing, I agree. Clothing could also change with your style of play - more bulk, body armor, etc. if you shoot a lot, say. I don't really think how the weapons behave should be part of it, though. Perhaps with additional training, you should be able to learn to use weapons better - e.g., cripple-shots with a gun, or using a stunner to kill someone - but I don't think your skill with a crossbow is a morality issue.

Oh, Loreleye? Was that even close to on topic? Was there any reason to have posted it in this thread?

Dragosani
19th Aug 2003, 07:52
Sounds like a cool idea. Not sure if it would be worth the effort though. DX1, JC had sort of a 'gray' look. Could have been good, or evil. The look would have worked with either.

W.C. Duck
19th Aug 2003, 20:32
why not put in an option in which you can create your own character? just like in Tony Hawk Pro Skater 2 or something.
one should be able to decide one's own hair-color and what clothes one wears. I know this is not too hard to implement.

Trevion
19th Aug 2003, 21:29
Originally posted by W.C. Duck
why not put in an option in which you can create your own character? just like in Tony Hawk Pro Skater 2 or something.
one should be able to decide one's own hair-color and what clothes one wears. I know this is not too hard to implement.

DX1 had the ability to customize your facial appearance (at least, to a certain extent) and such. That could be extended almost indefinitely, but I'm not sure how much it adds to the gameplay.

I'd really like to see clothing be important a la Hitman 2, but I can understand that increasing the amount of development time (e.g., conversation between Alex and Person 1, conversation between Alex disguised as Policeman and Person 1, etc.) too much for it to be worthwhile.

Bio Denton
19th Aug 2003, 23:24
Development time? We're not talking dynamic skins here.

It could be based upon something as simple as kill count or game triggers, such as storyline choices and then have a small library of 20 skins, varying between good and evil.

Yeah, the weapons idea wasn't really what I had in mind, but I threw it in anyway. What I mean't by it though was this; An evil person would kill when they could just as easily knock someone out. It was directed at non-lethal melee weapons, such as a baton.

The idea being, that, if you are evil, you cave their skull in, instead of smacking them on the neck/head. No more or less damage, just a different result.

Anyway, yeah, not what I was really trying to bring up. I think skin variation depending on your choices would be a good thing though.

Trevion
20th Aug 2003, 00:41
Originally posted by Bio Denton
Development time? We're not talking dynamic skins here.


The only thing I was talking about with development time was my second suggestion that clothing should take on the role it played in Hitman 2 -- disguise, etc. Adding your original suggestion would certainly be easily doable.


It could be based upon something as simple as kill count or game triggers, such as storyline choices and then have a small library of 20 skins, varying between good and evil.

Agreed.


The idea being, that, if you are evil, you cave their skull in, instead of smacking them on the neck/head. No more or less damage, just a different result.

Well, I think you need to hit someone harder to cave their skulls in. Maybe as you become more evil, you become more likely to do that - so that, initially, it might be hard to do, but, after killing 20,000 people, it's really easy to kill someone with a baton and harder to stun...

Loreleye
20th Aug 2003, 13:31
Yes, my post, is on topic, didnt you read the first line?
That sure is enough, or where to draw the line? at to lines max? or at least? This is giving me an headuaqe!!!
Please for god sake, dont implement it, I would have to go to an psykiatrist for it. Kidding, but why implement it? What use do it have? It makes sence in black & white, but not in Deus ex. Black and white is about good evil, deus ex is not.
I sure would love that skills could be better the more you used it. but there are some dumb things about that, there might be weapens you want to be good at, even not using it to much. In real life you can practice and practice, but in a game, unless you have the ability to train your dude, hehe. This has some problems.
It could be like this, if you miss a target several times, you wont be so much better, but if you take lethal takedown at the first bullet, your skill will go higher. And if you try to shoot whitout reloaded your ammo, you might loos skill points.

But this good evil feature is bad idea. So do I think. Some features that works very nice, close to perfect in a game, is not always good in another game, thought it could make sense!
I would like the ability to create my own dude, but not allowed to change by the way you play. wel if you take hits, your coat could look a bit rifted up and so on. And why not be able to use clothes from your enemies, so could you to a point go unseen past your enemy?
This might not make sense, but I think that the AI, could be more realistic if the enemy where not so smart. The computer always knew where I was when I made my present present.

buddha
20th Aug 2003, 14:13
Surely adding skin details and clothing depending on your 'evilness factor' is rather pointless as you wouldn't be able to see it, being in a first person shooter and all, lol. Apart from when your admiring yourself in the mirror perhaps.

I like the idea of different visuals in the way you take people down as you grow eviler or nicer. That would be something you could see and admire and think "hey, that's because I'm evil don't you know", and if your nice you may just give them a pansy knock on the head with the back of your hand and think "Man is ALEX really that queer?l"

Bio Denton
20th Aug 2003, 18:34
In Deus Ex, you did actually get to see JC quite a bit.

Lore, if you don't like the idea, you could atleast give a reason, instead of repeatedly saying "I don't like it".

Trevion
20th Aug 2003, 19:22
Originally posted by Loreleye
Yes, my post, is on topic, didnt you read the first line?

Oh, the part where you said "I don't like it" and then talked about something else?



What use do it have? It makes sence in black & white, but not in Deus ex. Black and white is about good evil, deus ex is not.

It isn't? Gee, I thought the whole point of the first one was figuring out the right path to follow in the web of conspiracies. In fact, I would even have claimed that the whole point of the choice of ending was picking the choice you thought was the "right" thing to do.


whole bunch of off topic stuff about training, and then...
But this good evil feature is bad idea. So do I think. Some features that works very nice, close to perfect in a game, is not always good in another game, thought it could make sense!
I would like the ability to create my own dude, but not allowed to change by the way you play. wel if you take hits, your coat could look a bit rifted up and so on.

Reasons for not liking it?


And why not be able to use clothes from your enemies, so could you to a point go unseen past your enemy?
This might not make sense, but I think that the AI, could be more realistic if the enemy where not so smart. The computer always knew where I was when I made my present present.

This was my point with the Hitman 2 comment a while back. It's quite doable, it's been done quite well, but adding it to DX2 would cause an exponential explosion in the amount of possible conversation.

Loreleye
21st Aug 2003, 18:41
Wel, I said why I didnt like it, I dont see whats the point! what good does it?
This sounds something like it would be fun for somebody, but not a good use.
Why not add a racing feature in black & white 2? Thats not sounding to good. Thats how I feel about this evil good thing
Formula 1 in black & white? NO!

Trevion
21st Aug 2003, 18:51
Originally posted by Loreleye
Wel, I said why I didnt like it, I dont see whats the point! what good does it?
This sounds something like it would be fun for somebody, but not a good use.
Why not add a racing feature in black & white 2? Thats not sounding to good. Thats how I feel about this evil good thing
Formula 1 in black & white? NO!

All you've said along those lines is that DX isn't about good and evil. I contend that it is -- how else do you choose which faction to help besides a recognition of which ones are good and which ones are not? Did you roll a die at the end of DX1 to figure out which ending to follow?

dirigimaster
21st Aug 2003, 22:37
JC and the nano people can't have scars, they have tiny robots who repair tissue inside and outside. Scars are marks of a humans inability to correctly reassemble tissue.

Bio Denton
24th Aug 2003, 14:36
Originally posted by dirigimaster
JC and the nano people can't have scars, they have tiny robots who repair tissue inside and outside. Scars are marks of a humans inability to correctly reassemble tissue.

*Gets out a baton and glares at dirigimaster* Stop being reasonable.



Wel, I said why I didnt like it, I dont see whats the point! what good does it?
This sounds something like it would be fun for somebody, but not a good use.
Why not add a racing feature in black & white 2? Thats not sounding to good. Thats how I feel about this evil good thing
Formula 1 in black & white? NO!


You're absolutely right, what is the point? Infact, while we're at it, let's take out all the textures, characters and detailed maps. We can have a wire-frame game. I mean, what's the point in having details and interaction?

crimson_stallion
26th Aug 2003, 14:41
Interesting idea. Not sure about the whole clothing thing. What if you liked to be stealthy and non-lethal, and you got a 'good' rating really high, and your guy was given some realy angelic looking white robe or something lol. Id like to use a silent non lethal approach, but stil lhave that "dont mess with me" type look. Wouldnt want my Alex starting to look like a mr nice guy just because i dont kill alot. At the same time, I might decide to use weapons and kill my enemies, but that shouldnt give me an evil ratign either. Chances are, they are mostly bad terrorists, so in a way they deserve it. You are cleanign the streets of terrorists. Doesnt really make u an evil person.

I think its better to just be able to choose your own appearance. Maybe choose a face (i.e. DX1) and then clothing. These would probably be enough to make your character suit you, as long as there were enough difference faces, clothes, etc. E.g. if you hd 15 faces and 20 types fo clothes to choose from for each character, you ll probably find one you like. This would also be great for modding (new clothes, new faces, etc).

However, one nice way this whole evil thing could be implemented. If you go around killing inocent people alot and robbing them, breakign itno houses, etc, you could lean towards evil. Your dialogue options could be more aggressive. I.e. you will try to force people to give you information , keys, items, etc. If you are good or neutral, you will help them, or be polite, and hence negotiate information out of them. Maybe you could have the choice of trying to force information or negotiate, and your success rate could be determined by how evil or good you are, respectively.

Deus (Seraph)
26th Aug 2003, 16:24
I feel there is not much sense in changing look because you like one style of gameplay.
How about being the perfectly styled, really good looking gentlemen - who is going to take them out one by one till all are gone - no conscience, no looking back!
Or the absolutely horrible looking one, maybe because of an accident, with scars all over his body. But he feels sorry for everyone he has to kill, because he can't stop to think "maybe he has a family back home, who is awaiting his return after his shift!"
You're seeing where I am heading? In fact i would see much more sense in getting scars because of hits an slashes. (But I wouldn't like it either, because if I choose a face I want to keep it ;) )

mikepayne666
26th Aug 2003, 19:23
Originally posted by Bio Denton
In Black & White, the main aspect of development for your character is visual perspective, e.g. black and everyone runs away, white and friendly, black and white, good and evil.

Anyway, this would be a very cool feature in Deus Ex 2, if it is at all possible. Nothing so extreme, but perhaps facial scars and a "mean" look for the black side and .. er.. something else for the "white" side of Alex Denton? This all depending on your interactions with characters in the game.

Example from Deus Ex: Liberty Island, Statue Misison: Kill a bunch of people and get a "black" notch added to your character's personality and a scar on their cheek, maybe knock-out weapons become lethal, I'll shut up.

Just a thought.
i think it would be cool to have it more rpg like like you can choose every word he says, not like what he says but more lines to pick from

AlteredGlyph
26th Aug 2003, 19:46
There i should be no change in appearence depending on your morality path. I might want to look like a totally evil person, and yet not kill anybody. For pitys sake, just give a default set of clothes, maybe 5 faces and leave it at that.

mikepayne666
26th Aug 2003, 19:49
no it would be badass to have it ass fully custizeable like the THPS create a skater

Bio Denton
30th Aug 2003, 21:04
Originally posted by mikepayne666
i think it would be cool to have it more rpg like like you can choose every word he says, not like what he says but more lines to pick from

I don't think that is viable, not in an audible way. And if you take away the audio from conversations, that will really dampen the RPG aspect.

I guess a text-to-audio filter would work, but that is a lot of work on it's own. But then getting NPCs to react to your every comment would be impossible; they could react to certain words, maybe.

crimson_stallion
31st Aug 2003, 13:12
I read on the 'Computer and Video Games Magazine" site that you will be able to modify skin colour, hair style and clothing. I'm assuming this will be selected when you start the game.
i.e:
enter real name (alex is probably a codename like JC)-->select gender-->modify appearance-->etc.

Given that these areas can be modified, i bet its just a matter of time before some dude goes and releases a nude female alex patch :S

Le`Sauveur`De`Ces`Dames
1st Sep 2003, 08:05
that would be a good question, can you change your appearence during the game? I mean, there is a possibility that you go illegal during the game, and you might want not to be to recognizable

Skul-Gun
3rd Sep 2003, 00:11
I think it would be a great idea to change your character's appearence in accordance to his/her alignment, but the player should be given the choice.

either perhaps at the start of the game you can turn this auto-change option on or off.

Or perhaps, everytime s/he is about to change, you can say something like "no, stay the same!". although i think this would be a really unnatural and frankly stupid way of doing it. because you can't really help getting scars and things like that.

The reason I am still interested in it though is because this thread reminded me of the time in Equilibrium where, towards the end of the movie, Preston Changed into his White uniform, and it was to subtlely let the viewers know that he had fully changed sides and was ready to kick some cleric arse.

Perhaps, Alex could change his/her appearence depending on which faction s/he joins. Kind of like a uniform. Those 'Order' uniforms look quite cool.

PDenton
3rd Sep 2003, 06:19
I think that being able to change your appearance during the game would be a really cool feature. However I don't think the scars and the good and evil idea would work. Other that having the problem of deciding when you are being good and when you are being evil, you may want to go non-lethl later which will be impossible if even your batton kills.

exo
3rd Sep 2003, 08:53
Originally posted by Bio Denton
In Black & White, the main aspect of development for your character is visual perspective, e.g. black and everyone runs away, white and friendly, black and white, good and evil.

Anyway, this would be a very cool feature in Deus Ex 2, if it is at all possible. Nothing so extreme, but perhaps facial scars and a "mean" look for the black side and .. er.. something else for the "white" side of Alex Denton? This all depending on your interactions with characters in the game.

Example from Deus Ex: Liberty Island, Statue Misison: Kill a bunch of people and get a "black" notch added to your character's personality and a scar on their cheek, maybe knock-out weapons become lethal, I'll shut up.

Just a thought.

It's a neat idea but I'm totally against getting some kind of marking for being a "bad person". That's stupid, what's the point of being bad if you get scarred everytime you do it? That's not why a person does bad things, they do bad things because they think what they do is right and don't care what anybody else thinks. You're an agent, you're not supposed to stick out in anyway like a sore thumb...

What so if you're doing good things you're supposed to get a halo and angel wings too?

I would say yeah keep score in the same way as you would if you killed too many people in a lethal way, but if it effects your choice of dialogue I'll go against it as well. You should always have the choice to do whatever you want be it bad, good or straight arrow at any time no matter how "good" or "bad" you are.

I'm all for a Reputation system. Maybe later in the game you join the yakuza and get an identifying tatoo on your neck, or join some black dragon clan and get a holy dragon tatoo that caresses the right corner of your eye. A signet ring recognzing you joined MJ12 or the Illuminati. Something of that sort I would hold with.

Other than the fact that "scarring" seems like your idea of a bad guy is a masochist, I sort've like it even though it needs a few kinks worked out.

Le`Sauveur`De`Ces`Dames
3rd Sep 2003, 09:33
What so if you're doing good things you're supposed to get a halo and angel wings too?

that would be GREAT! can't wait to play the game ("legal" fly-mode, can you imagin that?). and the halo might glowenough so it hides the glowing guns...

Ok it would transform you into a moving target, but after all, you are the good guy. maybe while you get all the attention, your friends can sneak by more easily

murka390
3rd Sep 2003, 14:47
flying is nice... but not with some wings ...
much exciteing is for exmpl, when you have to control (with a computer/augmentation) a miniature car, robot, plane to crawl or go to somewhere, where you can't get... into a hole or smtng and there deactivate a bomb or do some "action", and that should included in a mission.
in DX1 was an augmentation that gave you a probe or a little thingy, wich you could control, and look around with, but for that i did'nt find ANY practical use(, it only took tons of enery i activated it.
And if you wanted to fly by yourself, then there should be some flyng machine(plane, UFO ship :P, not some jetpack, that you can use anytime, because that's gonna make the game boring and simple), that's activated only, when you need it for a mission or smthn.

Le`Sauveur`De`Ces`Dames
3rd Sep 2003, 15:14
when you have to control (with a computer/augmentation) a miniature car, robot, plane to crawl

there is a Bot domination biomod annonced for DX:IW


in DX1 was an augmentation that gave you a probe or a little thingy, wich you could control, and look around with, but for that i did'nt find ANY practical use

there was one (although I never used it) : when it exploded, it created a EMP explosion that was stronger for each level. like a teleguided EMP grenade

AlteredGlyph
3rd Sep 2003, 15:59
The Spydrone was the best. You could take out bots like popcorn with that thing, and bio-energy is easy to recharge.

murka390
3rd Sep 2003, 16:28
as i can see... :p

"The Spydrone was the best. You could take out bots like popcorn with that thing, and bio-energy is easy to recharge."

thats what makes the DX1 SO SO great, that there are so many different ways to get through...
ok, everybody here knows that... so i'll shut up for now... :)

neostorm
6th Sep 2003, 08:43
I personally think that a really good choice would be that your character is able to buy (or acquire by other means), any new clothing, for example, if you want to infiltrate an enemy facility, you knock out somebody with their uniform, and then put that clothing on. This would greatly increase the stealth side of the game, and would be a good way to implement new skins for your character as well.

Bio Denton
6th Sep 2003, 20:32
Hmmm, clothing shops? That would be even better. You have to pay to look cool :P