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W.C. Duck
12th Aug 2003, 13:09
I read somewhere they were putting more sorts of augs in DX2.
this never hurts, but do you think it will add another dimension to the game? personally, I thought the augs in DX1 were fun and all, but the times I really needed them are fewer than the fingers on my left hand.
Also, while playing the game I sometimes totally forgot that I actually could use augs. I think this is because if you want to use an aug you have to press a button, and then it's easy to forget. Maybe the game will be better if the different augs weren't as powerful as they are now, but continuously active. What do you think?

edit:

DARN!

forgot to activate the multiple answers allowed option!

could you fix that for me, Catman?

BDenton
12th Aug 2003, 14:29
That'd be cool with more augs. In DX1, sure you don't need them sometimes but in some situations it'd be impossible to get buy with out them. Especially when you're trying to survive an attack from a guy with a plasma rifle or flamethrower and five or six troops with assault rifles. Without the regeneration aug almost anyone would get stuck.
I'm talking about when you're in maggie chow's place and her stupid maid calls the guards!

Catman
12th Aug 2003, 15:27
Originally posted by W.C. Duck
forgot to activate the multiple answers allowed option!

could you fix that for me, Catman? Alas, I can't make that kind of change. I can only add/delete options and/or close polls. :(

Random
12th Aug 2003, 15:52
Originally posted by W.C. Duck
this never hurts, but do you think it will add another dimension to the game? personally, I thought the augs in DX1 were fun and all, but the times I really needed them are fewer than the fingers on my left hand.

This is why the removal of the skill points is a good thing. There is more focus on biomods now, and they'll be much more useful and much more important in developing your character.


Maybe the game will be better if the different augs weren't as powerful as they are now, but continuously active. What do you think?

I'm not 100% sure, but I think there are some passive biomods in the game.

Hannibal
12th Aug 2003, 16:05
Is DX:IW going to have augs that require bioelectic energy and augs that don't?

Picasso
12th Aug 2003, 20:07
Yes, active biomods require energy and are just like the augs in DX. Passive biomods don't use energy and are very similar to skills.

My main problem with the augs in DX were that too many of them seemed to just be protections from the standard FPS hazards (EMP Shield, Plasma Shield, etc). The active biomods in DX2 are going more towards cool abilities (bot domination, quickness and so on) which I think is a step in the right direction.

Lawnboy360
12th Aug 2003, 20:39
I agree. There's some augs I had in Deus Ex I didn't ever use!

Trollslayer
12th Aug 2003, 23:33
Some augs had the problem of making you choose between them, but then not giving enough places where they would be useful. Aqualung and Regeneration you would always use because you'd more than likely go trough places with water, and more likely would use Regen to counter the increasing lack of Medbots - but EMP Shield? How many occasions would EMP attacks would pose a problem? Same with Energy Shield and Environmental Resistance. Hazmat Suits were plentiful, and if you'd train yourself in Environmental Training, you could use suits longer, but actual places with environmental hazards were very few and far in between. The Power Recirculator was also disapointing, iirc it would only considerably lower its BE consumption at level 3 to 4... meanwhile i could forget it and go with the excellent Synthetic Heart.

I think the choices in Augs should've been harder.

BDenton
12th Aug 2003, 23:38
yeah they seriously could use a few more aug slots.


that would be useful since you could save a space so you can have cloak and radar transparancy.

Trollslayer
12th Aug 2003, 23:41
Originally posted by BDenton
yeah they seriously could use a few more aug slots.


that would be useful since you could save a space so you can have cloak and radar transparancy.

That would make it too easy.

Picasso
12th Aug 2003, 23:50
The Power Recirculator was also disapointing, iirc it would only considerably lower its BE consumption at level 3 to 4... meanwhile i could forget it and go with the excellent Synthetic Heart.

IMHO, the synthetic heart was useless. I always had enough aug upgrades to max out the augs that I actually used.

Power Recirculator, on the other hand, was indispensable to a stealth character. It was more energy efficient to upgrade it to level 4 than cloak or radar transparency. Plus with Cloak, Radar Transparency, Silent Run and Power Recirculator you can just fade away and not reappear for quite some time.

As for slots, there are 18 active biomods with 6 slots, which makes for 3 choices in a slot. Plus one other one that exists in all characters (probably a light).

We don't know about passive biomods yet.

BDenton
12th Aug 2003, 23:52
not exactly cuz once you start firing others around the guy you kill can see you.

Trollslayer
12th Aug 2003, 23:53
Originally posted by Picasso
IMHO, the synthetic heart was useless. I always had enough aug upgrades to max out the augs that I actually used.

Power Recirculator, on the other hand, was indispensable to a stealth character. It was more energy efficient to upgrade it to level 4 than cloak or radar transparency. Plus with Cloak, Radar Transparency, Silent Run and Power Recirculator you can just fade away and not reappear for quite some time.

As for slots, there are 18 active biomods with 6 slots, which makes for 3 choices in a slot. Plus one other one that exists in all characters (probably a light).

We don't know about passive biomods yet.

Thats true, though iirc, i had to raise it almost to maximum level until it got good enough. Meanwhile why i raised it, other augs were being left behind. Thats why i personally prefer it, and it doesn't mean i won't use the PR.

Loreleye
13th Aug 2003, 08:39
I noticed that the first time I played the game, I never used augs, but after I played it sometimes I have used it more and more. Though, where is the cloak and radar transparency augs???

Le`Sauveur`De`Ces`Dames
13th Aug 2003, 09:35
here (http://planetdeusex.com/denton/equipment/augs.shtml)
(mission #6)

On your first mission to VersaLife, enter the lab areas from the secret elevator. Find the ROM encoding and run to the other end of the U shaped passage. Inside the sealed radition filled chamber you can grab Spy Drone/Aggresive Defense System, Targeting/Vision Enhancement, and Radar Transparency/Cloak augs.

(mission #8)

In the lower decks of the ship reach the bilge pump room. Get atop the balcony in the southwest corner and follow it to the keypad locked door. Open it up to claim a Cloak/Radar Transparency aug. Alternate route exists by navigating the maze like vent system.

(mission #11)

In the Hazard lab, left as you enter the base through the main entrance, you'll find a cloak/radar transparency aug surrounded by electrified water.

PDenton
17th Aug 2003, 19:51
I know that there are 18 different biomods, but does the six slots mean that you can only have six of them installed or can you have all of them installed and then hotkey six of them like you do with your weapons?:(

What do you think were the most ineffective/useless augmentation from Deus Ex? I founs that I never used the balistic protection unless I could see I would need it and I only ever used the Spy Drone for its EMP attack, never to spy.:p

Picasso
17th Aug 2003, 20:39
You can only have 6 active biomods installed (there is a 7th that exists in all characters, probably a light).

We don't know about passive biomods.

gareis
17th Aug 2003, 23:01
What good is the run silent aug? I found that you could go almost as fast crouched with speed enhancement. Should definitely have had a noise penalty, even crouched, with that aug.

Anyway, I'll reserve judgement until the new game is revealed.

Picasso
17th Aug 2003, 23:10
It is true that Speed Enhancement accelerates crouched running, and that crouched running is still silent. However, running crouched is less than a third as fast as normal running, so Speed Enhancement will never let you move silently as fast as Run Silently will.

From here (http://www.stanford.edu/~bescoto/deusex.html#RS). Additionally, Run Silent prevented noise you made when falling and swimming.

Personally, I would have made it so that Silent Run affected falling damage, rather than Speed Enhancement. I think it would have made it a bit more balanced.

Hannibal
18th Aug 2003, 13:02
Silent run is necessary if you are trying to take out opponents with non-lethal methods.

chaos_Kn
19th Aug 2003, 14:25
I am just re-playing the game and the moment and i have found that you never have time to activate the mod when you need them. Some mods might be better only using bio energy when they are being used. this way they can be left on but are there when you suddenly need them.

Like regenerate for example, if you could leave it on when you where at full health but it only started using bio-energy when you took damage and was doing something.

Things like speed run would still have to be tuned on or off to stop them being used but it still might be a good idea to use the energy as it is used rather than continuously.

bullet protection would be another good one use that way because it was never active when i was actually shot.

Also a small amount or regeneration on bio-energy when everything is turned off might be a good idea. I am always vary careful with finite resources in games and even a token regen would loosen me up a bit and get me using mods more.

By the way i would like to add that i really liked the skill system in the last game as i thought it added dimension to the improvement of the player and enabled the specialisation or the character. Is it true we won't see them in the next one.

Chaos

Random
19th Aug 2003, 15:13
One simple but useful feature would be a hotkey that activates a custom biomod list. You can choose which biomods you want bound to that hotkey and then just flick them all on in one go when you get into a firefight. So you'd select all the biomods that help in a combat situation, and if you're surprised by guards, you can take them down quickly without having to press multiple function keys (or worse, pausing the game to turn them on using the biomod screen).

buddha
20th Aug 2003, 14:24
The augs were great. It was so different in a first person shooter to be able to upgrade yourself in such a way.

6 slots for the active biomods!! That's nowhere near enough. There were about 8 augmentation slots in deus ex 1. I'm sure that can't be right, I'm sure I read somewhere that there are about 12 slots for the biomods, not sure if that includes the passive ones or not. I'm so glad there are passive biomods because I was getting worried about the merging of augs and skills into biomods thinking "but surely the ones like computer hacking shouldn't have to use BE, I'm pissed off!" but now I'm happy again :)

PDenton
21st Aug 2003, 11:20
Maybe 6 will be enough for active biomods, about half of the augs in DX were useless or you'd only use if you knew before hand that you would need them. I mean if I used bullet protection whilst I was being shot at, I was already damaged. Either that or they'll make the few that you get more effective.

I like Chaos_Kn's idea of having them on constantly, but if it was bullet protection, it would have to stan on for a bit like 2 or 3 seconds otherwise if it can on just before the bullet hit and turned off just afterwards it would use hardy any bio energy.

chaos_Kn
22nd Aug 2003, 15:43
to clarify what I meant, with an example:

With bullet protection it is always turned on but uses up no energy until you are shot.
As the bullet hits you the mod takes a chunk of bio energy in exchange for the reduced damage(this chunk can be made as big as seems fair).
This way you have the bullet protection and you are paying for it with bio energy instead of time away from your controls.

- Chaos

crimson_stallion
29th Aug 2003, 03:17
Originally posted by Picasso
Yes, active biomods require energy and are just like the augs in DX. Passive biomods don't use energy and are very similar to skills.

My main problem with the augs in DX were that too many of them seemed to just be protections from the standard FPS hazards (EMP Shield, Plasma Shield, etc). The active biomods in DX2 are going more towards cool abilities (bot domination, quickness and so on) which I think is a step in the right direction.

Sounds good. I thought there were just a whole bunch of biomods, the active (with energy) and passive (without) is a good idea. Possibly better then skill points because it is easier to implement it realistically.

For e.g. its hard to get a skills system that is realistic to how people gain skills in real life, without faults. However, adding biological enhancements to a person, thus improvign their skills in soem areas, is very plausible (in a deus exy, sci fiey kinda way). Also this means that instead of upgradign pistol skill to level 3, etc, you could basically get a certain mod instaled in your arm to reduce recoil, and or another in your eyes to increase accuracy. Then basically upgrade (i.e. enhance these components) 2 times to get to basically level 3 skills. IMO this is more realistic to say "i have level 3 arm upgrades" then saying "i have level 3 pistol skills" becasue skills cant really be measured in levels. Basically the pasive mods jsut replace the skills, and the active mods repalce augs from what i can understand. The aug system probably worked better then the skill system in deus ex (immersion and realism wise), so this to me is a good move.

I read that interview with Warren, and from the info gathered from it It really seams that DE:IW will be avery excellent game. Of course we won't know until we play it, but the future, IMO, looks bright.

headbutt
30th Aug 2003, 11:29
I hope in this Deus Ex they make the augmentation choises have more of an effect on how you play the game, For instance I want you to have to chose between stealth, power and sheild. In the first one you had to choose between cloak and radar transparency, that was just stupid

Le`Sauveur`De`Ces`Dames
1st Sep 2003, 13:48
Originally posted by headbutt
In the first one you had to choose between cloak and radar transparency, that was just stupid

it makes the game a little more interesting : if you are invisible to bots AND human beings, there is no more fun : you can't be detected.

MR X
2nd Sep 2003, 17:50
That'd be cool with more augs. In DX1, sure you don't need them sometimes but in some situations it'd be impossible to get buy with out them. Especially when you're trying to survive an attack from a guy with a plasma rifle or flamethrower and five or six troops with assault rifles. Without the regeneration aug almost anyone would get stuck.

I beg to differ. I just played through deus ex1 on the hardest difficulty almost never using any aug, and generally only using it for the sake of getting a secret item (e.g. jumping on a building to loot a body). Why? Because I'm a perfectionist freak who saves every 10 seconds and can't STAND to waste bio energy. At sector 4 of pages bunker I literally had full bio energy and all 30 bio cells :) max # of med pacs, max # of rockets, max # of LAMs, well, you get the idea (I'm a freak)

PDenton
2nd Sep 2003, 18:49
Sure active and passive biomods will be interesting, but there must be other ways to do it without getting rid of the skills entirely. For example if you wear a lot of armour or themo camo then you get better in that area or if you always use hte shotgun and sniper rifle then your rifle improves. :D

One thing I can't understand is how if there are only six different passive biomods, what about those skills that you can't fit in. There must be some that won't be upgraded at all:(

Le`Sauveur`De`Ces`Dames
3rd Sep 2003, 15:18
Originally posted by PDenton
Sure active and passive biomods will be interesting, but there must be other ways to do it without getting rid of the skills entirely. For example if you wear a lot of armour or themo camo then you get better in that area or if you always use hte shotgun and sniper rifle then your rifle improves. :D


I think this has already been discussed, it is the way it has been done in Morrowind, I think. but it has it flaws : for example, you could wait in a hotel room with your armor on, and then have a better armor skill. or you could just stand behind each civilian in the street and shoot them in the head to improve your weapon skill, etc...

and, again, I don't see why we couldn't live/play without skills, if character progression still exists, with just another form

SkriP
20th Sep 2003, 21:12
Originally posted by Random
This is why the removal of the skill points is a good thing.

u have GOT to be kidding me! how dare you remove my uber1337 hax0r skillz?! i loved the skill system! it was something to look forward to.

Trollslayer
21st Sep 2003, 14:40
I still don't understand the fixation people have with skills. Really. If other ways of character growth can be implemented, and better, why revolve around the same? Is it because they automatically think "skills = RPG"? Christ. Specially when it comes to powergaming skill implementation like Morrowind's system. Good idea, poorly implemented. DX1's skill system, although fair, led to too much side-tracking, which led to the system failing to be engaging due to the breaking of the game's pace.

SkriP
21st Sep 2003, 14:45
Originally posted by Trollslayer
I still don't understand the fixation people have with skills. Really. If other ways of character growth can be implemented, and better, why revolve around the same? Is it because they automatically think "skills = RPG"? Christ. Specially when it comes to powergaming skill implementation like Morrowind's system. Good idea, poorly implemented. DX1's skill system, although fair, led to too much side-tracking, which led to the system failing to be engaging due to the breaking of the game's pace.

i really dont know what you're talking about in the last sentence, i don't recall EVER having a broken pace of game. Anyone play multiplayer? recall how you could use the skills there, that was fun, people had a choice of what they can do with their character.

Picasso
21st Sep 2003, 16:39
The functionality of the skill system is all coming back, except you no longer have to juggle 1575 points for this and 2150 points for that. The biomods are a more realistic and easy to use system.

Trollslayer
21st Sep 2003, 20:34
Originally posted by SkriP
i really dont know what you're talking about in the last sentence, i don't recall EVER having a broken pace of game. Anyone play multiplayer? recall how you could use the skills there, that was fun, people had a choice of what they can do with their character.

It means your only means of specializing in multiple skills is only acheieved with continuous exploration. Hence, instead of keeping a levelhead and doing it so your skills could improve gradually in a visible way, many times your only source of points were exploration. i don't personally have anything against exploration, but having to increase my weapon skills by going out there and allocate myself with 500 points because i went trough some airducts or collapsed bridges breaks the pace because i have to go off-track. The same system could've been done better without putting so much faith on exploration.

SkriP
22nd Sep 2003, 12:09
Originally posted by Trollslayer
It means your only means of specializing in multiple skills is only acheieved with continuous exploration. Hence, instead of keeping a levelhead and doing it so your skills could improve gradually in a visible way, many times your only source of points were exploration. i don't personally have anything against exploration, but having to increase my weapon skills by going out there and allocate myself with 500 points because i went trough some airducts or collapsed bridges breaks the pace because i have to go off-track. The same system could've been done better without putting so much faith on exploration.

well maybe you're right... it was a while back when i played DX but from what i recall, i enjoyed it thoroughly, and really don't recall having a broken pace of game... (only i never finished it :(, got stuck on the level with the aliens shooting green goo at me)

Hannibal
22nd Sep 2003, 14:50
Exploration only gave you a small portion of your experience. You only would have missed out on a couple of skill upgrades by not exploring a lot. Also, keep in mind that you would also find goodies by exploring, and not just experience.